Warhammer 40K Tactics IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.

[Cheesegear]

Probably when people realized they could pay the measly points cost to have a free 4+ cover save to screen their boyz with.

No they can't; That was last edition.

Now they're just a screen. A terrible, terrible toughness 2, no save, leadership 7 screen.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Shooting through a unit, into another unit gives a 4+ cover. Page 21

[Lycan 01]

A few things...

1 - Me and my friends have always assumed Boltguns have an AP of 4. In fact, I'm sure that's what the Quick Start Rules said, but I don't have them with me currently. You mentioned 'Ard Boys, with a 4+ Save, surviving bolt rounds, so I decided to check the rulebook. What do you know, AP 5. Well, that changes things slightly... 'Ard Boys seem a bit more appealing, now that I know it'll actually make a difference outside of melee.

2 - Choppas do give the Orks +1 Attack... Which comes in handy en masse. You say they may be useless, but I still see a purpose for them.

3 - I got 1 Boyz kit earlier today, and I'm going to make them into Shootas. Then, once I'm done with them, I'm going to get another Boyz kit, and probably make them into Shootas, as well. So yeah, that's 20 Sluggas and 20 Shootas. + 'Eavy Armor for one of those squads...

4 - My Space Marine buddy got a Master of the Chapter, who has a Large Blast S10 AP1 Orbital Barrage ability once per battle. I realize now that using a Trukk is suicide, since he'll just blast it and everything in it. I also realize how stupid a 30 Ork squad is against such a weapon, since he can literally wipe out half my army if they're bunched up like that. Soooo... I've got to spread myself out a bit, so that if he does get lucky and get a perfect hit in the middle of my Boyz, I'll still have at least one decently sized mob to rely on.

5 - Are Bosspoles worth taking in a 20 Ork squad? They're already fearless, and I could use the points for something else, but it may come in handy if/when I lose an assault...


And finally...


6 - My idiot friend stole from my local hobby store today. While I was buying my Boyz.

We went in so I could get a Boyz kit, and he could get some more paints for the Tau kit me and my SM buddy got him, since we didn't get him all the colors he needed for the finer details. I didn't think it was worth the trouble, personally. They're Tau - you're only gonna notice 2-3 colors on them... Well, we looked at the paints, then me and my SM buddy went back to the models. I kinda go into my own little world when I'm in that store, so I didn't think about him not buying the paints - I figured he'd decided not to get them, or something. Well, later on in the afternoon, he proudly proclaims that we didn't have to worry about him having to buy the paints. He then proceeds to pull them out of his pockets. Needless to say, I was pissed. I hate stealing, and that store is one of my favorite shops and places to hang out. So yeah, I'm kinda annoyed at him right now...

Also, I hope they didn't catch him on camera... I'd rather not have to deal with that next time I go in there, since I go in there a lot and the clerks probably recognize us. Oh well, nothing I can do about it now. I suppose I could go back and pay for the paints, but that might get us in just as much trouble, if not more...





Oh, and my mom got a camera for Christmas. Expect pics of my Orks, Imp Guard, and other modelling achievements within the next few days.

[Cheesegear]

You mentioned 'Ard Boys, with a 4+ Save, surviving bolt rounds, so I decided to check the rulebook. What do you know, AP 5. Well, that changes things slightly... 'Ard Boys seem a bit more appealing, now that I know it'll actually make a difference outside of melee.

Choppas do give the Orks +1 Attack... Which comes in handy en masse.

Well, they don't. Not compared to what Choppas used to do. Having two weapons gives them +1 Attack. You could replace all their Choppas with BIG STICKS and it wouldn't make a difference. Plus, 'having two weapons' is a Universal rule, and as such, is suitably less impressive when everyone can do it.
Still, yeah, en masse, the attacks begin to add up. However, 40 Shoota dice can more than make up for the 10-15 extra attacks you could get if you were only slugga boyz.

I got 1 Boyz kit earlier today, and I'm going to make them into Shootas. Then, once I'm done with them, I'm going to get another Boyz kit, and probably make them into Shootas, as well. So yeah, that's 20 Sluggas and 20 Shootas. + 'Eavy Armor for one of those squads...

Keep in mind that with a little bit of extra effort, you can make some of those Shoota Boyz into 'Flash Gitz', y'know, if you ever want to use them for anything before you start filling your HS slots with something that's actually useful; Like Killa Kans and Wagons, and then turn your Flash Gitz back into Shoota Boyz when you don't need them / have better things to use.
(Bad Moons are the bestest)

My Space Marine buddy got a Master of the Chapter, who has a Large Blast S10 AP1 Orbital Barrage ability once per battle.
[...]
Soooo... I've got to spread myself out a bit, so that if he does get lucky and get a perfect hit in the middle of my Boyz, I'll still have at least one decently sized mob to rely on.

That's it! NOW you're getting it! I'm actually a little surprised that you haven't been on the business end of a Vindicator yet. Just about every army has one - or more - kind of high strength, low AP Large Blast weapon. So, you should be watching out for those already.

Are Bosspoles worth taking in a 20 Ork squad? They're already fearless, and I could use the points for something else, but it may come in handy if/when I lose an assault...

Bosspoles are kind of hit and miss. Especially since you have to inflict a wound on the unit and your boyz have only got 5+ saves. So, not only did you just lose assault, but, you just took out another one of your Boyz, and then you failed the test again anyway...So you took out another Boy, and failed the test again...Yeah. You can do it as many times as you like.

Bosspoles aren't really required in the Blockier 20+ units, since, yeah, you are Fearless. Bosspoles are really only effective in the 12 model Trukk units where they aren't Fearless, or, even on Warbosses with Meganobs because 'inflicting a wound onto the unit' means a little less because they've all got 2+ saves.

My idiot friend stole from my local hobby store today.

Well, later on in the afternoon, he proudly proclaims that we didn't have to worry about him having to buy the paints. He then proceeds to pull them out of his pockets. Needless to say, I was pissed.

...The Hell!? In $AU, paints are $6 a pot. In $US, they're likely less. I could understand stealing a Wraithguard blister (I understand why, but I don't condone it at all) and stealing box sets might be a little hard because of the size. But, seriously, stealing paints?
Thieves are the worst when they steal cheap things that they could easily just buy.

Also, I hope they didn't catch him on camera... I'd rather not have to deal with that next time I go in there, since I go in there a lot and the clerks probably recognize us.

You'd just better hope for damn sure they don't think that you were 'buying things' to draw attention away from him whilst he was stealing. Or, if you do go in there a lot like you say you do, let's hope that the staff do know you and think that you would never do anything like that.

That's why I go into GW at around half an hour before close. Usually not a lot of people are there and I can talk to the staff. Contrary to popular belief, Blackshirts do have lives outside the hobby and are actually relieved when you don't talk about the hobby (providing that there's time).

Oh well, nothing I can do about it now. I suppose I could go back and pay for the paints, but that might get us in just as much trouble, if not more...

Not in my experience. If you go back. And you pay for the paints. And you explain that your friend - not you - stole the paints, and you're there to 'make things right'. You should probably be okay and the staff should respect your honesty and your integrity. Your friend, however, is likely to be banned from the store.

---

In other news, my winning streak ended today. 5 wins in a row is still not too shabby. Anyone who says Tau are a bad army 'because they can't assault' has never been on the business end of their shooting. Hell, I was playing Toughness 5 Space Marines with extra Cheese[gear] and I still got shot to ribbons.

I think the fact that my opponent went heavy on the Devilfish and my terrible Vehicle Penetration rolls are what did it.
His army was almost as fast as mine. 2 Devilfish filled with Fire Warriors, Piranha, 3 (Deep Striking) Crisis Suits, Commander and a Hammerhead.

Yeah...I'll write up something in my 'usual style' in the next few days.

[crazedloon]

Well, they don't. Not compared to what Choppas used to do. Having two weapons gives them +1 Attack. You could replace all their Choppas with BIG STICKS and it wouldn't make a difference. Plus, 'having two weapons' is a Universal rule, and as such, is suitably less impressive when everyone can do it.
Still, yeah, en masse, the attacks begin to add up. However, 40 Shoota dice can more than make up for the 10-15 extra attacks you could get if you were only slugga boyz.

I don't know if you have mentioned it yet but for reffrence choppas used to turn all armor that was better than 4+ to 4+ thus an entire marine army (terminators and all) became 4+ in CC making the Chappa a lot better than a slugga (I play speed freaks ..... well mech orks now so it was an even larger power gap)

Now it is a little debatable because more dice at range is sometimes better than more in combat here is why:

1. they have an 18" range and are assault weapons which means they will get 3 turns of shooting before you assault (at 18" at 12")

2. They are not as effected by the thinning out of your ork mobs as your assault is because they have range and can be effective beyond 12" where a lot of your thinning will occur (due to rapid fire)

3. The orks they are attached to still have a good number of attacks and are just as good in assault.

4. They are S4 all the time not just on the assault

5. they do not lose power if you do not get the assault and are in turn assaulted

(Bad Moons are the bestest)

do they even still have that fluff in the new codex? They were indeed the bestest back in the day when they were there own models

...The Hell!? In $AU, paints are $6 a pot. In $US, they're likely less. I could understand stealing a Wraithguard blister (I understand why, but I don't condone it at all) and stealing box sets might be a little hard because of the size. But, seriously, stealing paints?
Thieves are the worst when they steal cheap things that they could easily just buy.

This indeed is annoying for even more reasons like the fact that if you do not like the prices of GW paints you can get other model paints for cheaper (and indeed I know plenty of guys at the local shop who only use non-GW paints)

In other news, my winning streak ended today. 5 wins in a row is still not too shabby. Anyone who says Tau are a bad army 'because they can't assault' has never been on the business end of their shooting. Hell, I was playing Toughness 5 Space Marines with extra Cheese[gear] and I still got shot to ribbons.

I think the fact that my opponent went heavy on the Devilfish and my terrible Vehicle Penetration rolls are what did it.
His army was almost as fast as mine. 2 Devilfish filled with Fire Warriors, Piranha, 3 (Deep Striking) Crisis Suits, Commander and a Hammerhead.

Yeah...I'll write up something in my 'usual style' in the next few days.

The heck are you useing that has T5? bikes?

Also mech tau are devistating and just becuase they lack CC does not mean they are bad. As long s you are not foolish and stay as far away from the kroot as you can your army will do wonders.

If that was all he has in his list however it may have been due to a lot of luck.... A normal tau list is dead without marker lights and that army lacks them.

[Cheesegear]

They [Shoota Boyz] do not lose power if you do not get the assault and are in turn assaulted.

Well, they do. But, no more so than any other Ork.

do they even still have that fluff in the new codex?

Not really. Just one sentence here and there throughout the Codex like "A lot of Flash Gitz come from the Bad Moons clan..." and they get a few models on the painting examples pages. But, nothing entirely concrete. The Codex pretty much assumes that everyone plays Goffs (not that people reading the Codex would know what that means, of course )

The heck are you useing that has T5? bikes?

Yes. The Space Marine Captain-on-Bike method. Or, just plain Ravenwing in larger point games where its worth it.

If that was all he has in his list however it may have been due to a lot of luck.... A normal tau list is dead without marker lights and that army lacks them.

Probably. I recall frequently rolling snake eyes on my Armour Pen. rolls with my Multi Melta. Yes. Frequently. It happened more than once. And my Sergeant with Power Fist spent three turns banging on the Hammerhead never once getting better than 'Can't Move Or Shoot'.

...At the end of his last turn, the kill count (for Annihilation) stood at 4-4 (because for some stupid reason I couldn't kill a Hammerhead with three powerfist attacks per turn, for three turns). I had one guy left in my Bike Squad. 6 Fire Warriors Rapid Fired their weapons at the one guy. 5 hit. 1 wound. Just one. Guess what I roll for my armour save? Yep. A one. He finally takes out the last bike of the unit, he gets an extra kill point. 4-5. He wins.

It was very frustrating on my part because Multi-Meltas couldn't do crap and one guy was like...Tapping on the side of a Hammerhead with a Power Fist.

[Arcanoi]

4 - My Space Marine buddy got a Master of the Chapter, who has a Large Blast S10 AP1 Orbital Barrage ability once per battle. I realize now that using a Trukk is suicide, since he'll just blast it and everything in it.

No, it just means you need 4 of them.

[Etcetera]

And, while the bombardment has infinite range, it requires the chapter master to stand still, which means that hiding is still a viable option, and in an ork army, if he fires a S10 Ap1 weapon at a squad in a trukk he's probably wasted it.

[Myatar_Panwar]

4 - My Space Marine buddy got a Master of the Chapter, who has a Large Blast S10 AP1 Orbital Barrage ability once per battle. I realize now that using a Trukk is suicide, since he'll just blast it and everything in it.

So you know, just because its open-topped doesn't mean your boyz are hit by templates. Only the vehicle is hit. If it explodes, then sure you have to deal with some STR3 hits, but they are WAY safer inside of that trukk than outside.

[Issabella]

Ever just have one of those games you almost had to quit due to embarrassment? As your luck was so horrible? Kharn and a squad of Bezerks lost in close combat to a squad of fire warriors, where broken, and lost in the sweeping advance. Not my finest moment.

[Trixie]

You know... I was going to buy myself a Codex for Holidays.

And you know what? I know one FLGS guy, so he let me (basically) borrow a few ones for break providing I buy one (or more) books once new year starts.

Anyway, I've read CSM codex. It's nice, but...

Incidentally, why no one here mentioned there is 5.0 errata on GWS site buried really deep?

I also happened to take SM codex, for curiosity's sake and for comparisons. Not that I was expecting to take it, as I dislike the whole 'zeal' and 'crusading' parts...

But now I look at it, it's filled with million special characters that could make Ahriman and Abaddon run crying for mercy... and they're (point-wise) cheaper to far cheaper, too!

When I look at all the little upgrades Chaos Lords must take to remain competitive with these guys (and it's not like they were cheaper even before them)...

Also, while I still dislike basic ideas behind SMs (and like Thousand Sons design far better) I looked at Master of the Forge (and his conversion beamer - the guy is basically a walking artillery piece! Idea - what if I put him in a Rhino and keep him far from enemy lines - he can shoot from inside of it, right? It's like a cheaper Vindicator, right?) - and his Techmarines...

And here's another army idea - Chapter (let's call them "The Warforged") led by MotF, with techmarines/servitors/dreadnoughts filling all roles save for those of basic Tactical squads - that is, providing heavy support, antitank and close combat functions of the army. No Chaplains/Librarians/Heroes at all, just all-technological force.

Let me guess - like all my former ideas, it's fluffy, but not exactly viable from winning point of view?

Also - there seems to be no MotF model on GW site either, which means I'm real good at liking non-selling variants, eh (fourth HQ idea so far without model)?

The only counterpoint to this is that you could have picked Chapter traits in the 4.0 codex, which would make such an idea easier, while you can't in this one. And SMs have bazillion configuration options, compared to CSM, making them less introduction-friendly. And...

Okay, time to end this rant. One last question - there's a Sergeant IC upgrade for Scouts costing 50 points. Does this mean he: a) joins this unit, b) replaces sergeant (but then, why it didn't read +50 points?) c) you subtract sergeant from unit point cost, then you add 50 points for new one?

Also, conversion beam replaces harness. So, how does MotF with one looks like? A normal Marine with really big gun?

[hamishspence]

I think there was a picture of it in the 2nd ed wargear book- can't remember precisely what it looked like though.

[Dark Faun]

I don't know how reliable B&C is, but they do have a thread about the conversion beam.

[Trixie]

Thanks!

Now, about Mr. Sergeant Telion and viability of techmarine army...?

[crazedloon]

And my Sergeant with Power Fist spent three turns banging on the Hammerhead never once getting better than 'Can't Move Or Shoot'.

I am sorry but after turn 2 I would have been done with the game too angry at my own luck.....

That is 2 attacks each turn, auto hit, 2 to glance, 3 to pen..... I just can't see this luck at all

Also his unit just need 6s to glance the thing.... and thats all you got

[hamishspence]

Okay, time to end this rant. One last question - there's a Sergeant IC upgrade for Scouts costing 50 points. Does this mean he: a) joins this unit, b) replaces sergeant (but then, why it didn't read +50 points?) c) you subtract sergeant from unit point cost, then you add 50 points for new one?

Replaces sergeant.

In 5th ed, units usually come with sergeants built in. Something like: X pts- 4 scouts + 1 sergeant, may add up to 5 extra scouts at Y points each.

[Trixie]

Uhm. Okay. I had read too much CSM codex, it seems.

Yes, I can see it working like this, but this means we not only pay for new, expensive character, but also lose the old, increasing the cost even further. That kind of burns. And I still don't get why it wasn't +50, instead of 50.

Plus, how they went from 'customise/buy every single item, even bolters, chainswords and sergeants' marines from 4.0 to this a bit inflexible unit scheme in 5.0? And how 5.0 CSM will look like, then?

[hamishspence]

4E chaos is already a bit like that- the system began with the Eldar (though the Tyranid codex had some similarities in that all the options were in each unit entry) and since then, most codexes have had a certain inflexibility in that respect.

Though it is true that unit champions can in some cases be bought, rather than coming pre-bought.

In 3rd ed and 3.5, you had to pay for things like grenades, in 4th ed, Chaos and Dark Angels got grenades built in, and all their basic weapons are listed in the unit entry.

[Cheesegear]

I am sorry but after turn 2 I would have been done with the game too angry at my own luck...

...So, you'd RAEGQUIT? Way to Sportsmanship.

That is 2 attacks each turn, auto hit, 2 to glance, 3 to pen..... I just can't see this luck at all

Three attacks. Since you don't get locked in combat with vehicles, every turn I made a new charge. Yeah. Auto hit. 2s to glance. Guess what I kept rolling? I never, ever, rolled anything better than a 4.

Also his unit just need 6s to glance the thing.... and thats all you got

False. I had meltagun'd the Hammerhead before combat and had previously Immobilised it for non-move-ness, ergo, auto-hits every round.

Yes, I can see it working like this, but this means we not only pay for new, expensive character, but also lose the old, increasing the cost even further. That kind of burns. And I still don't get why it wasn't +50, instead of 50.

Because that's the way special character-unit upgrades work, replacing the old character. Otherwise you'd end up having two sergeants and the like. And, yeah, the +50 instead of just '63 points' is a little confusing, but, once you've figured it out that it's an upgrade, it's no longer confusing. Grats. You've figured it out. It's no longer confusing.

[Trixie]

Because that's the way special character-unit upgrades work, replacing the old character. Otherwise you'd end up having two sergeants and the like. And, yeah, the +50 instead of just '63 points' is a little confusing, but, once you've figured it out that it's an upgrade, it's no longer confusing. Grats. You've figured it out. It's no longer confusing.

Um, my point still stands - in the codex, it isn't "+50" but just "50". As in, like, every other place where you buy characters, not upgrade them. If it was "+50" that wouldn't have been issue at all

And incidentally, in CSM codex I've been reading until now it is always "+X", never "X". "X" is for new, not upgraded guys.

[MountainKing]

What Codex are you looking at, specifically? All of mine seem to have their +s for upgrading special units (or maybe my brain just puts them in for me, I have no idea).

Worst case, don't they typically say in the description something like "One of these units may be upgraded to a suchandsuch for x number of points"? Seems like, even if it wasn't in the table, it'd still be pretty much obvious...

[crazedloon]

...So, you'd RAEGQUIT? Way to Sportsmanship.

not quite more of my soul not being in the game, after all the game is not in me that day (apparently due to the roles)

False. I had meltagun'd the Hammerhead before combat and had previously Immobilised it for non-move-ness, ergo, auto-hits every round.

No I meant the normal marines can punch through armor 10 which is the back armor of a hammerhead (presuming the sarge was not the only guy left) and even with glancing hits you can kill a tank (with enough weapon destroyed that is)

[Myatar_Panwar]

not quite more of my soul not being in the game, after all the game is not in me that day (apparently due to the roles)

Yes well, quitting because you arn't getting the rolls you want is pretty much the definition of being unsportsman like.

Your opponent might be enjoying his victory, and you really shouldn't be getting mad at all.

And cheesegear was actually pretty close in that game. One tank unkilled does not an auto-loss make.

[onasuma]

Hey guys! Guess what!

Gamesworkshop just made my tyranid army unusable. Ive now got a grand total of..... 5k unplayable armies. First my kroot renegades, then my lost and damned and now my nidzilla. DAMMIT.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Not really. Just one sentence here and there throughout the Codex like "A lot of Flash Gitz come from the Bad Moons clan..." and they get a few models on the painting examples pages. But, nothing entirely concrete. The Codex pretty much assumes that everyone plays Goffs (not that people reading the Codex would know what that means, of course )

I play blood axes. Or would if I could be bothered to paint any of them. Or had any looted vehicles or commandos. Or any vehicles or unit type that wasn't basic boyz.

My orcs are pretty much useless

[Cheesegear]

Yes well, quitting because you arn't getting the rolls you want is pretty much the definition of being unsportsman like.

Yeah. Pretty much.
"I'm not getting the good rolls that I want. Therefore; I'm quitting."
Explain how that isn't bad sportsmanship?

It's like when I (used to) played WoW, some guy came with us on a raid and didn't get any loot. After the raid he was whinging and screaming (over the mic) and calling us fairly offensive names and said he was never coming with us again on a raid and he was quitting the guild. Completely ignoring the fact that there were another 10+ people in the raid who never got any loot either who weren't complaining and were just happy to be in the raid and talking to people (a WoW raid where about three quarters of the participants are drunk is one of the more fun experiences in my life...But, I don't play that game anymore...Instead I have hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth of plastic toy soldiers...)

Unless the real issue is that you're not having fun because you're not winning (getting good rolls), that's an entirely different issue that you'd need to address, and not really something I'd take your side on. Since 'Winning equals fun' is not an attitude I endorse. Winning is fun, of course. But, if you can't have fun if you don't win; That's an entirely different kettle of fish. And something people should think about looking into fixing.

...Unless of course you're losing and your opponent is being a knob-end about it. But, I've never actually played an opponent like that in any game outside a tournament or Games Day. I'm lucky enough to have a gaming group/club where being a tool is not encouraged. And my other half of the time I'm in a GW store where a*holes get told to get out.

Your opponent might be enjoying his victory, and you really shouldn't be getting mad at all.

Seconded. Unless he's being a knob about it. But, you shouldn't be stooping to his level either. If an opponent is a knob, you should usually tell a store manager after the game and let them take care of it. Chances are the complaint will have come up more than once if they're that bad. And then you just never have to play them again.
In a tournament you get to mark down knobs. So, that's okay. I guess. And you only really ever need to play them once.

And cheesegear was actually pretty close in that game. One tank unkilled does not an auto-loss make.

Well, in Annihilation games it does. Especially if the end-score was 4-5 and if I had killed the tank it would've been a draw. But, yeah, it was a really close game. I had fun. And I learned some things.

Originally posted by Onasuma
First my kroot renegades, then my lost and damned and now my nidzilla. DAMMIT.

That's a shame. Play more Apocalypse games?

IMHO, a Nidzilla list was never really viable in 5th Ed anyway. Still, it's a shame you can't play the army(/ies) that you want. Maybe you can start working on a Tyranid Warrior army (they're Troops now, yes?) and make a sort-of 'Big List'?

[onasuma]

Dont worry, im already planning my new nids. Its just sad that I lost my current 6 carnefixes. Still going to use the flying one though. He's as good a tyrant as any.

Nah, this time round its flyers. Plastic gargoyles decided that for me.

[Erloas]

Dont worry, im already planning my new nids. Its just sad that I lost my current 6 carnefixes. Still going to use the flying one though. He's as good a tyrant as any.

Nah, this time round its flyers. Plastic gargoyles decided that for me.

How did you loose them? Didn't the new codex make carnifexs a 3 for 1 HS choice now? Everything I've read says you can take a lot more carnifexes then you used to be able to.

[Lycan 01]

Couple of quick questions...


Which is better for my Shootas vs Space Marines? Rokkit Launchas, or Big Shootas?

Also, how do you best remove paint from plastic model? My SM buddy kinda messed up a couple of his Terminators when he tried to repaint them into Deathwings. Apparently, too many layers of paint, and the wrong priming color choice, left them looking a bit... meh. So is there any way for him to remove the paints and start over? Or is he screwed?

[Cristo Meyers]

Generally more dice is better in Ork shooting. Strength of the hit doesn't matter if you don't hit at least once.

There are a couple of ways to remove paint as long as you haven't clear-coated the model. Paint remover, for one. I've had limited success with nail polish remover and a stiff brush.

Really the trick is to not use something so strong that it'll damage the model.