Warhammer 40K Tactics IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.

[Arcanoi]

Deathspitters are S5 AP <something, 5?>, Assault 3. Cost 5 points for Warriors. Devourers suck. Always take Deathspitters.

Termagants vs. Hormagaunts is now a serious decision. because Devourers don't suck anymore, and Termagants let you field a Monstrous Creature (usually HQ) as a Troops choice.

Out of curiousity, what ARE the stats on Devourers...?

[Oslecamo]

Wait, why are the Templars crossed out? As far as marines go, they have the best assault out there. Two CC weapons, Preferred Enemy and Land Raiders available for everybody.

Their old codex isn't up to the power creep, unlike necrons and DE. Their HQ kinda sucks now, they have no librarians or whirlwinds, expensive jump troops, expensive rhinos, and raiders are too expensive for you to be able to afford one for each of your troops, unless you plan to do a LR army. Plus fewer special weapons.

[hamishspence]

Lance weapons don't work anybetter than normal ones on monoliths- I think it says that in the monolith entry- it has to cope with the plain monolith AV 14, and not lower it to 12.

On the plus side, Str 10 and AP 1 is pretty good even against a Monolith.

On Devourers, my guess is that for warriors, they are overpriced, but for termagants, they are not.

[Cheesegear]

On Devourers, my guess is that for warriors, they are overpriced, but for termagants, they are not.

Warriors get Devourers for free. It's just that Deathspitters are only five points extra, and there's no reason not to take them (and, even with Deathspitters, Warriors are still cheaper than Ogryns and Terminators). On Termagants, Devourers are, actually quite good. Also, Monstrous Creatures can have 'suped-up' Devourers that become Assault 6 and cause Pinning or something.

General Rule of Thumb;

If, in this edition, you liked some things (Hive Tyrants, Broodlords, Carnifii, Hormagaunts, Venom Cannons, etc.), they've been nerfed. If, in this edition, you didn't like some things (Termagants, Zoanthropes, Biovores, Devourers, etc.), they've been buffed.

[One Step Two]

General Rule of Thumb;

If, in this edition, you liked some things (Hive Tyrants, Broodlords, Carnifii, Hormagaunts, Venom Cannons, etc.), they've been nerfed. If, in this edition, you didn't like some things (Termagants, Zoanthropes, Biovores, Devourers, etc.), they've been buffed.

But isn't that the point of the constant development cycle? (I mean, other than an excuse to make new stuff and make more money) To re-evaluate the things that people used the most to make more sensible, and changing the things that were lacking to give it more attention, along with encouraging (forcing?) people to change army lists. I know my resident Tyranid player is completely over the moon at 6pt Gargoyles (and plastic kits), they also come with poison apparently and he wants to make 20 of the things. Also, they deepstrike.

[Cheesegear]

But isn't that the point of the constant development cycle? (I mean, other than an excuse to make new stuff and make more money) To re-evaluate the things that people used the most to make more sensible, and changing the things that were lacking to give it more attention, along with encouraging (forcing?) people to change army lists.

Yes. But, some people don't quite understand that, so, it needs to get pointed out at least once that yes, some things did get nerfed, and there's nothing that we, as non-developers can do about it. But, honestly, that's the way things work. The hobby changes. Because tourney staff are sick of seeing 1500 (or even 1000) point lists with double Winged Hive Tyrants (that's not to say that it still can't be done, just that it's less good because of the points involved).

So, who cares if they nerfed your super-powerful auto-win ultra combo/list/tactic/unit. They nerfed it because it's a super-powerful auto-win ultra combat/list/tactic/unit. And anyone who doesn't use <your army here> hates it - and by extension, you. The game is supposed to fun. Yes. Even tournaments are supposed to be fun. GW doesn't want hyper-competitive people at their tournaments, but, they still come anyway and ruin things for everyone.

I know my resident Tyranid player is completely over the moon at 6pt Gargoyles (and plastic kits), they also come with poison apparently and he wants to make 20 of the things. Also, they deepstrike.

All true. Except the poison. I think that's an upgrade (at least it is for Warriors, and, even then, it's close combat attacks only). But, I didn't look at the Gargoyles entry too closely because I was too busy focusing on Shrikes (Winged Warriors).

That being said, if the new Gargoyle wings are compatible/size-appropriate for Warriors, I'll be super-excited.

[One Step Two]

The game is supposed to fun. Yes. Even tournaments are supposed to be fun. GW doesn't want hyper-competitive people at their tournaments, but, they still come anyway and ruin things for everyone.

I agree in that pulling out as much cheese in a list is a fairly unsporting thing to do, but that sort of overt stretching of the rules does increase the play-testing done on armies, giving us a more polished product in the end. Good with the bad, as they say.

Just as aside, I've noted a very interesting trend with Codcies that have been produced sofar, starting from the new Marine (and especially the Space Wolves) to the new nids is that, yes wargear is being sub-sumed into the units as defaults, and that they are getting steadily more fire power. Just as a couple of examples off the top of my yeah, the conversion beamer for the space marines, the Hot Shot Lasguns for Guard and of course the S10 AP1 Lance Zoanthropes. It feels to me that lower point format games are sort of heading to the back-slide and bigger games seem to be the thing.
Not that I am complaining, woo Apocalypse.

All true. Except the poison. I think that's an upgrade (at least it is for Warriors, and, even then, it's close combat attacks only). But, I didn't look at the Gargoyles entry too closely because I was too busy focusing on Shrikes (Winged Warriors).

That being said, if the new Gargoyle wings are compatible/size-appropriate for Warriors, I'll be super-excited.

It would be cutting it close. They look like they'd only just fit the bill for warriors to use, but I think that they'd be slightly dis-proportionate to the rest of the model regardless. But I could be wrong, the 'goyles are mostly wing anyway.

[Cheesegear]

Just as aside, I've noted a very interesting trend with Codcies that have been produced sofar, starting from the new Marine (and especially the Space Wolves) to the new nids is that, yes wargear is being sub-sumed into the units as defaults, and that they are getting steadily more fire power.

The game is heading back to the glory days of 2nd Ed. where shooting was a viable option. 3rd and 4th Ed. has the massive pro-melee conspiricy because Assault was just. That. Good. There was no need for shooting.

Now that there are better ranged weapons, and Blast weapon rules have changed and Assault has taken a hit (i.e; No extra attacks for Power Fists and Thunder Hammers, no consolidating into other enemy units for more Assault, Initiative plays a bigger factor, and the rules for Grenades have changed) the power gap between shooty-heavy armies and assault-heavy armies is closing. Which is how it's supposed to be.

Tau 'not being good in close combat' is less of an issue than it used to be. A 'proper' Imperial Guard army should win just about every game unless the table is small or there's 'too much' terrain. But...Imperial Guard are...Somewhat overpowered.
I know in (Australian) WHFB tournaments, they've brought in the Tier system. Because some army lists are just inherently powerful (Dark Elves, Vampire Counts) and just by being certain armies, you're almost guaranteed a win. Unless you suck.

...That's...Not really happening in 40K anymore as armies are becoming more and more balanced, yet, still remaining different to each other. And I give the developers massive props for that.

A 'shooty' Ork army is now 100% viable (partly because all Orks are good in Assault, but still) even though they have BS of 2. Why? Better and cheaper guns.

As you've noticed, Termagants (and Gargoyles) have been boosted, and Zoanthopes are almost mandatory if you want to kill tanks reliably, Tyranids aren't really considered a 'OMG ASSAULT' army anymore. They can be...But, like I said in the Fantasy Thread; Shooting is an important phase. And you're seriously missing out on kills if you don't use it.

But, yeah...It's all part of the design process. Previous editions, why shoot? They're changing that.

[Wraith]

Amen, Brother Cheesegear.

Admittedly, at first I thought that GW went too far by removing Consolidation from Assaults. It seemed logical and useful, and although a slight nerf would have been nice in order to prevent one super-hard unit from rolling right across your battle line, I was annoyed that they didn't want to experiment and find a balance and instead just did without.

Before long, though, I began thinking in your way. Your super-hard Assault unit can still crash into any given unit of mine and reliably kill it to the last man - usually within one round, going by experience. When it comes to shooting though, there is nothing like as reliable as an equivalent.

One unit per turn is more than enough, thank you ver much Mr. the Betrayer, and now things are starting to swing back towards some sort of much-appreciated middle ground

As such, I am so far impressed and excited by the changes made to Tyranids. They were a close second choice behind the Space Marines that I recently began collecting, and now I may well put them on hiatus until I know more about the Great Devourer

[Cheesegear]

Admittedly, at first I thought that GW went too far by removing Consolidation from Assaults. It seemed logical and useful, and although a slight nerf would have been nice

...Huh?
You can still consolidate D6", you just can't consolidate into more units. The rules for Sweeping Advance is a nerf and a half though. Still, I think it was a good nerf.

Before long, though, I began thinking in your way.

That it's a game and it should be fair and fun? Regardless of what kind of army/list you play (i.e; Shooty armies should be just as good {if not better, IMO} as Assault armies)?

As such, I am so far impressed and excited by the changes made to Tyranids.

As I've been saying, I like the changes too. Not the additions.

[Selrahc]

That it's game and it should be fair and fun? Regardless of what kind of army/list you play (i.e; Shooty armies should be just as good {if not better, IMO} as Assault armies)?

Heh. The game should be fair and fun, but shooty armies should be better?

I think they've gone too far the other way at the moment. Melee units being successful relies on them being very precise in when they kill the enemies. Leave them nearly dead at the end of your assault phase. finish them off in their assault phase. Charge in your next assault phase. Getting that to happen is really a matter of luck. A pure melee army isn't going to be as good as a pure shooty army in most cases. Melee works best as part of a hybrid force, with shooting units attempting to kill off any severe ranged threats to melee units before they hit the enemy lines.

[Cheesegear]

Melee works best as part of a hybrid force, with shooting units attempting to kill off any severe ranged threats to melee units before they hit the enemy lines.

Yeah. That's exactly how it should be. And that's the way the game is heading at the moment. So, I've got no complaints.

[Wraith]

...Huh?
You can still consolidate D6", you just can't consolidate into more units. The rules for Sweeping Advance is a nerf and a half though. Still, I think it was a good nerf.

I never played an Assault-orientated army, so hope you'll forgive that oversight. The difference between the two, by going on the endless complaints and nit-pickings of my local gamers, is moot - if you can't consolidate into an enemy unit, they argue, there's no point in consolidating at all.

Some people just don't like having their toys taken away, I guess.

Heh. The game should be fair and fun, but shooty armies should be better?

It really did suck for a lot of people when 3rd Edition was rolled out and suddenly your guns weren't as good as they used to be, but melee units could move an extra 4" per turn AND got extra attacks for doing so.
There still is a lot of hard feelings and a general sense of unease as to what will happen in each new Codex, but like Cheesegear said what we're seeing now is much, much closer to 'balance' than we've had in a long time.

I think they've gone too far the other way at the moment. Melee units being successful relies on them being very precise in when they kill the enemies. Leave them nearly dead at the end of your assault phase. finish them off in their assault phase. Charge in your next assault phase. Getting that to happen is really a matter of luck. A pure melee army isn't going to be as good as a pure shooty army in most cases. Melee works best as part of a hybrid force, with shooting units attempting to kill off any severe ranged threats to melee units before they hit the enemy lines.

I don't think that's inherently a bad thing, and also that you're overlooking the other side of the coin.

The ideal turn for a Shooting army is to launch an enormous amount of ordinance at the other side of the table and to make sure that there's nothing left that can shoot back next turn, or that you're safely out of range of that which has survived.
Skill and tactics help, but ultimately it's also all down to luck, and any army composition will suffer if they go up against something it's not properly equipped to handle, be it melee or ranged combat.

Melee is still a very good way to kill one enemy unit in one round with one friendly unit, and there's a reasonable chance that your guys will survive to the next.
Shooting isn't quite on par with that (and I personally believe that it never should be - what'd be the fun of a unit that can sit in the corner of a table and reliably wipe out your opponent one FoC per turn?)) but it does have other advantages that are starting to even the score in ways that are separate, yet equal.

[Cheesegear]

if you can't consolidate into an enemy unit, they argue, there's no point in consolidating at all.

Because you can consolidate unhampered through difficult terrain into cover from the barrage of fire you're likely to come into on your opponent's turn.

The ideal turn for a Shooting army is to launch an enormous amount of ordinance at the other side of the table and to make sure that there's nothing left that can shoot back next turn, or that you're safely out of range of that which has survived.

There's a growing trend of Devastators/Long Fangs and double Vindicators (and Retributors and double Exorcists) rolling around in the last few months. I'm under the impression that it's an after-effect of the Imperial Guard Codex that people have finally figured out that Heavy Support - rather than Elites - is where it's at.

The rest of us seem to only just catching onto what Tau players have known for quite some time. That if you shoot your opponent's units before they get to Assault, then you've really got nothing to worry about. Or, rather, less than you normally would.

Shooting isn't quite on par with that (and I personally believe that it never should be - what'd be the fun of a unit that can sit in the corner of a table and reliably wipe out your opponent one FoC per turn?

Space Wolf Long Fangs (to a lesser extent, SM Devastators), IG Basalisks and Tau Hammerheads would like a word with you...

but it does have other advantages that are starting to even the score in ways that are separate, yet equal.

Personally, I think it comes down to an objective-based game that 5th Ed. has primarily moved into. In that you need to reach a point, and then not move. Meaning, that you kind of do need ranged weapons to make things work...

Chaos Daemons have very few ranged weapons. Chaos Daemons never win (or even place in) tournaments. Coincidence?

[hamishspence]

Just as aside, I've noted a very interesting trend with Codcies that have been produced sofar, starting from the new Marine (and especially the Space Wolves) to the new nids is that, yes wargear is being sub-sumed into the units as defaults, and that they are getting steadily more fire power.

It goes back a bit further than that.

The Dark Angels codex, Eldar Codex, and Chaos Space Marine codex, all tended to build wargear such as grenades into the unit (instead of being upgrades) and listed all possible options within the main army list, instead of

"up to 150 pts of wargear"

and the trend has continued ever since.

Technically the 4th ed Tyranid codex was the first to list all options within each unit entry, but after that there were more "standard" codicies- Black Templars and Tau, and the codicies only started to set the trend of subsuming wargear options like grenades into units with Dark Angels and Eldar.

[Wraith]

Because you can consolidate unhampered through difficult terrain into cover from the barrage of fire you're likely to come into on your opponent's turn.

You know it. I know it (better late than never). They? They were sulking because Mephiston was a wuss compared to some of the loadouts they could give their special characters, and wanted them to win games single handedly.

The rest of us seem to only just catching onto what Tau players have known for quite some time. That if you shoot your opponent's units before they get to Assault, then you've really got nothing to worry about. Or, rather, less than you normally would.

I've known that for a while, I've just refused to go down that route with my army. More power to those that enjoy such a thing of course, but I am easily bored with the idea of "sit here, don't move, and roll dice until you win" themed armies and wouldn't play one

Space Wolf Long Fangs (to a lesser extent, SM Devastators), IG Basalisks and Tau Hammerheads would like a word with you...

These guys, I don't have a probem with - there's still considerations to take into account that make them more or less effective. What weapons they take, what target they shoot at, other wargear options, characters to join them, etc. There's at least some element of possibility for failure.

Compare them, for example, to the old style Bloodthirster. That thing hit your unit? You might as well just take it off now and save yourself the hassle. And then another in the next turn. And then another after that....
Thankfully modern examples like that are few and far between, and there are virtually no (excluding Apocalypse-style Necron Pylons or Imperial Titans, of course) examples like that in a Shooty army.

Personally, I think it comes down to an objective-based game that 5th Ed. has primarily moved into. In that you need to reach a point, and then not move. Meaning, that you kind of do need ranged weapons to make things work...

I like the way that you put that.
Up until now, I'd considered 40k's objective-taking missions to favour Assaulting armies. After all, if your opponent has a Unit dug-in at an Objective and stubbornly refuses to give you a Line of Sight or to fail it's Cover Saves, a sensible option is to send in a bunch of guys with big knives who aren't worried about the rocks and have a presence at the location, denying full occupation to your opponent whether they win or lose.

Your way seems like fun too, though. Shooty armies for defending a position, Melle armies for assaulting a position?

[Trixie]

Out of curiosity, how Wysiwyg works?

Yes, you cannot give your models equipment if the don't have it on figure. But what if you give them too much? For example, power swords as ccw, icons/banners not included in list, basically, extra stuff for decoration? Is that banned, too?

Can you fire conversion beamer out of Rhino's firing point?

Can you field different chapters at once? Say, tacticals being Ultramarines, devastators being Space Wolves (both using single codex, in this case, SW one) or is it frowned upon?

Why there is no Master of the Forge HQ for SW despite them being one of the most "technical" chapters out there, having their own mini-forge world (mountain) and technology dating to the HH? I'm looking at you, hammer with teleporting stuff built-in, durable enough to withstand millions of hammer hits - that's seriously as good as Necron tech.

[Keris]

<Monstrous Creature> I forget what it's called, but it spawns Termagants.

Tervigon. 160pt monster who can spew out 3d6 termagaunts per turn.

And a couple of special characters I didn't pay attention to because I don't care about SCs.

There's now the Swarmlord (a CC HT based monster, 280pts), the Parasite of Montrex (a flying beasty who implants people with ripper eggs, 160pts), plus several others scattered around the 'dex.

Chameleon Lictors in Broods of 1. ~140 points. I don't know the difference.

Special rules and slightly higher stats. It causes a selected enemy IC to have -1d3 Ld until it's dead, enemies within 12" roll one less die for difficult terrain, enemies shooting it must roll as if it were Night Fighting, and it can go back into reserves during your movement phase. And he Rends on a 5+.

Zoanthropes. Holy crap. They have a S10, AP 1 Lance weapon. Strength 10. Lance. 2s to Glance Land Raiders, Leman Russes and Monoliths. AP1 also means +1 to damage rolls.

Fortunately, it's only 18" range, and Zoanthropes are still T4, so you might have a chance to pop them before it becomes a problem. Provided you get past the 3+ Invulnerable save they have.
There's also a unique Zoanthrope who absorbs the wounds of those he kills (up to a maximum of 10), and has his S tied to his current number of wounds.

Some Elite Genestealer Brood. Ymgarl Genestealers, I believe they're called.

They get to start the game "hibernating" in a terrain piece, and have +1 to either T, S or A each assault phase.

I know my resident Tyranid player is completely over the moon at 6pt Gargoyles (and plastic kits), they also come with poison apparently and he wants to make 20 of the things. Also, they deepstrike.

It's not Poison poison, but from what I've heard rolls of 6 to hit auto-wound.

[Cristo Meyers]

Out of curiosity, how Wysiwyg works?

Yes, you cannot give your models equipment if the don't have it on figure. But what if you give them too much? For example, power swords as ccw, icons/banners not included in list, basically, extra stuff for decoration? Is that banned, too?

If I understand the question correctly: you only have to represent any "extra" equipment options: i.e. a power sword, meltagun, etc. Something you had to pay points for. Anything else you want to put on the model is just fluff and there's no real rules for that.

Also: if the codex entry says a model has X equipment, then it has X equipment regardless of whether or not it's represented on the model (example: Chaos Marines with bolt pistol, bolter, & CCW).

Can you fire conversion beamer out of Rhino's firing point?

Unsure. I think so...I never really had to use the firing from vehicle rules too often.

Can you field different chapters at once? Say, tacticals being Ultramarines, devastators being Space Wolves (both using single codex, in this case, SW one) or is it frowned upon?

As long as they're all using the same codex.

[Wraith]

Can you fire conversion beamer out of Rhino's firing point?

According to Codex: Space Marines, you can: It says that Firing Points allow 'two models' to fire out of the Rhino, and it doesn't restrict what models they are. The MRB might disagree, but I don't know where it says that.

Can you field different chapters at once? Say, tacticals being Ultramarines, devastators being Space Wolves (both using single codex, in this case, SW one) or is it frowned upon?

There is no Rules-based reason as to why you can't do that. They're your models and you can paint them any way you like. Some hard-line enthusiasts might whine and complain that it's 'not allowed' in the 40k storyline, but that's their problem and not yours.

So long as they're all based on the same Codex, it's legal - you couldn't use some from Black Templars and some from Space Wolves, without having to use the rules for Allied Forces too.

Why there is no Master of the Forge HQ for SW despite them being one of the most "technical" chapters out there, having their own mini-forge world (mountain) and technology dating to the HH? I'm looking at you, hammer with teleporting stuff built-in, durable enough to withstand millions of hammer hits - that's seriously as good as Necron tech.

All Forge Masters and Tech Priests are trained at Mars to learn the Cult of the Machine. Because Space Wolves hate the Adeptus Mechanicus, so they refuse to do that and instead train their own Marines in their own rituals, in their own way.

It's entirely fluff. SW's do have them, but they're called Iron Priests and they have different equipment

As for WYSIWYG, I don't know if there is a specific definition of what it must and must not include. It tends to differ from person to person as to what they'd like to see, so someone else will have to let us know if they know better.

[Zorg]

Out of curiosity, how Wysiwyg works?

Yes, you cannot give your models equipment if the don't have it on figure. But what if you give them too much? For example, power swords as ccw, icons/banners not included in list, basically, extra stuff for decoration? Is that banned, too?

I depends - if your army has power weapons, icons etc in it then it could get confusing. I.e. Unit a has a Khorne Icon in the list, and a guy scarrying it on the board. Unit B doesn't in the list, but a guy is still carrying one.
Similarly if only half the power swords on the board are 'real' power swords, the other half normal CCWs.

If none of your units have Khorne icons in the list, but every unit has one on the board that's no issue. Similarly if every power sword is a CCW, and power weapons are something else (power axes for example) some people may object, but so long as it's consistent it should be ok.

Can you fire conversion beamer out of Rhino's firing point?

Pretty sure you can, though as a heavy weapon the Rhino would need to be stationary I think (or moving slowly at best).

Can you field different chapters at once? Say, tacticals being Ultramarines, devastators being Space Wolves (both using single codex, in this case, SW one) or is it frowned upon?

So long as they are all using one codex, or you have your opponent's permission to use more than one codex, there's no problem. Some people may find you colour coding your units a benefit even :).
In 2nd ed they called it a Crusade Army, representing a whole bunch of chapters pooling forces to achieve a common goal (then they released all the different codexes and it got very silly and they banned allies).

Why there is no Master of the Forge HQ for SW despite them being one of the most "technical" chapters out there, having their own mini-forge world (mountain) and technology dating to the HH? I'm looking at you, hammer with teleporting stuff built-in, durable enough to withstand millions of hammer hits - that's seriously as good as Necron tech.

The boring 'real world' answer is to make SWolves distinct from regular Marines. It's why they don't have Ironclads, Storms, Thunderfires etc. They have all their other unique units, so rather than making them Marines+more cool stuff, they made them Space Wolves (like marines, but harier choppier).

From a background view all chapters have gear from the Heresey / Crusade period - Mk6 (beakie) and Mk7 (the current main kit) armour date to the Heresey too, so it's not that remarkable. It's pre-heresey/dark age stuff that's the good stuff ;)
All the first founding (obviously), and a great deal of their immediate successors would too, being split from those forces. The Consecrators of the Dark Angel's line are known for their amount of pre-heresey equipment (being marines in Rogue Trader Dark Angel colours).

Also one guy having a fancy thing isn't that remarkable, if they all had it then yes, but Dark Angels have 100 or more suits of Terminator Armour (a rarity) and have no MoF equivalent, same for Blood Angels who are considered the most aesthetic of chapters (so a master artificer would be apropriate). It could be seen that their Master of the Forge isn't considered worthy of special character status as he is not held in the same manner/esteem as his peers in the command structure.

Dark Angels: chronic mistrust means the ties of the techmarines to Mars and the mechanicum keep them in the lower ranks.
Blood Angels: the techmarines are mechanics, not master craftsmen or supurb warriors so are not regarded as highly as captains etc.
Space Wolves: While valubale the Iron Priests spend too much time thinking and not enough doing! Raaaargh!!!

EDIT: T-T-Trippple ninja'd!!!

[crazedloon]

Space Wolf Long Fangs (to a lesser extent, SM Devastators), IG Basalisks and Tau Hammerheads would like a word with you...

though these are good examples they are outdated (ok no clue about the long fangs in the new codex)

If you want examples of shooting being beyond rediculous look no further than the Imperial guard codex. The basalisk is now outdated and not as good (still good).

Colossus: here is a tank which can and will drop large pie plates which will cut through SM armor save wound on 2 and ignore your cover save. Unless you are fearless you will most likely be taking a panic test (not just the pinning test) and falling back with less than half your unit in 1 turn

Bane wolf: moving death more your style her is a tank which wounds on 2s vs anything not immune to poison and cuts through SM armor as well all on a fast chassis so it can move 12" out of cover to drop the flamer on you

Leman russ punisher: you have an army with poor armor saves? well this thing can throw 32 shots across the board wounding on 3s (with the special character hitting on 3s) and most hord armies will cry and ask you to play nice becuase it has a juicy AV 14 on the front

Leman russ Executioner: you playing heavier units? Want to make them cry themselves to sleep? How about 5 plasma cannon shots? even marines will die in 1 volley (and light tanks, and large mobs, and...... the list goes on)

These are the heavy hitters and they all can be grabbed in groups of 3 as 1 choice. Shooting armies are very, very viable

[onasuma]

Heh, I also saw a codex today... My army isnt just unusable. The individual parts of it all suck.

So, I guess Ill start some iron hands.

[hamishspence]

Chaos Daemons have very few ranged weapons. Chaos Daemons never win (or even place in) tournaments. Coincidence?

The fact that half the army Deep Strikes in may be part of it- on a terrain-heavy board you might lose a lot to mishaps, on a terrain-light board fire can be focussed and most of the other half taken out first, before the Deep Strikes start.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Had a pretty interesting match against Necrons yesterday. 2k points. He was fielding 2 squads of 20 warriors, 6 destroyers, 2 lords with res orbs, 1 heavy destroyer, and 2 monoliths.

Myself as CSM was fielding 2 Rhinos, 2 Land Raiders, 40 berserkers inside of them, a Defiler, a Dreadnought with melta, and a Demon Prince with wings.

He basically shot me to pieces, almost outright destroying 2 entire squads of berserkers by turn 2. But then my demon prince and 2 squads of 10 reached combat. One squad of 10 and the DP assaulted a single group of 20 warriors, while the other 10 assaulted the other group of 20.

I won each combat, and did a sweeping advance on each. He phased out.

Honestly I think Sweeping advance, as it is, might be a little bit too powerful. The other day I had a single berserker advance over 11 blood claws, cause I won combat by 3 models killed.

[Mattarias, King.]

So.. In conclusion, is all the internet "OHNOEZ, TEH NIDZ, DEY IZ OP!!1!" just a bunch of baloney? Personally, I just see them as a challenge, but my friends are dreading the new codex to the point that the one that plays 'nids just outright refuses to play by the new rules.


..Also yeah, sweeping advance. Liiiitle nuts, but I think it can fit if tweaked slightly. Like maybe if the sweeping unit has to be about the size of the running unit? I dunno. ..Though one guy taking out an entire unit is extremely manly, I must say.

[Cheesegear]

So.. In conclusion, is all the internet "OHNOEZ, TEH NIDZ, DEY IZ OP!!1!" just a bunch of baloney?

Yes. People seem to think that the new units are totally amazing apparently solely based on the fact that the new models look scary. They are not. The only 5th Ed. Codex that is overpowered is the Imperial Guard.

The new 'Nid army is more balanced than it was before. And people who are currently running double Winged Hive Tyrants and 60-70+ Hormagaunts, plus Carnifii may find their list just a little underpowered.

[hamishspence]

didn't the 4th ed Nid codex strictly forbid having more than one winged tyrant?

It said in the unit entry "1 per army"

Though I suppose somebody could be using an Imperial Armour 2005 Winged Hive Tyrant, then saying it's an addition to the army list, separate from the "normal hive tyrant that can take wings"

That said, tyrants in general were probably a shade too cheap for what they could do.

[onasuma]

Winged tyrants are currently limited to 0-1. The fact we can have 2 now makes me REALLY happy. Nothing else does much for me, but 2 winged tyrants!

[Shas aia Toriia]

Honestly I think Sweeping advance, as it is, might be a little bit too powerful. The other day I had a single berserker advance over 11 blood claws, cause I won combat by 3 models killed.

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!!! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!!!!