Warhammer 40K Tactics IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.

[One Step Two]

Seeing the questions about the Avatar reminded me of a quandry I am in.
At the moment, my local club is holding a small 500 point format tournament, with the minimum requirements being 1 HQ and 1 Troops. My list is as follows.

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Eldar 500pts

Autarch w/ Swooping Hawk Wings, Power Sword, and melta Gun

5x Eldar Pathfinders

4 Swooping hawks + Exarch w/ Sunrifle, intercept and Skyleap powers.

Fire-Prism Grav Tank

The list was built with the idea that I can lay down as much punishment from over 20 inches away as possible, the Snipers acting as a stationary, and hard to root out peice of bait (thank you increases cover save by +2), and the Fire-Prism using it's excellent manuverability to take out nice sized chunks from enemy forces. The Swooping hawks with their awesome 24" range (albiet low str) Weapons can output 14 shots, 6 of which cause pinning, and the added punch of the Grenade packs, using the Autarch to get their reserve rolls at a very reliable rate has so far seen to the defeat of Imperial Guard and Tau with ease, along with Orks and space marine foes. However I fear I may be undone by a fellow Eldar player. Their list is as follows:

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Avatar

5x Eldar pathfinders

5x Swooping hawks (unknown wargear)

Warwalker with 2x Scatterlaser

The list looks something similar to mine because the player is a younger member of the gaming group and liked the look of my list when I was doing some play-testing before the tournament. I'm a little flattered, but came to an odd realisation of how I was going to deal with what would amount to something similar to defeating my own list.

Thoughts below:

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The Warwalker can be taken care of quickly, but can cause me a great deal of pain with 8 S6 shots if I leave anything out in the open, the fire prism will prioritise on it but a bad scatter or roll may mean big trouble. I may be able to use my swooping hawks to assault it to use their haywire grenades depending on how vulnreble they are to reprisal afterwards, but I think I should avoid it coming down to that.

I plan for my snipers to go gung-ho on the avatar like nobodies business, but I worry that dedicating all that firepower for a single victory point might be a bit pointless. To take out his snipers, I think getting my autarch all up in their business would be the best bet, both with their guns and an assault to follow up.

As for his swooping hawks I get the feeling he might just end up skyleaping the entire game, while this means I need to contend with the grenade pack template, but him lacking an autarch may give me a bit of breathing space, but I hate the idea of relying on it.

Now, just so you know all my options, I am allowed to change my list during this round once, but I really would prefer not to, and I don't like the idea of tailoring it to beat only one opponent.

If anyone could point out any flaws in my thoughts, or have anything else to add I would appreciate it, also I need a consensus on the following question.

As per the deepstrike mishap table, if the unit is delayed (a 5-6 roll) beyond the end of game, the unit count as destroyed. However, does this also apply to units which are left in reserve beyond the mishap table result? Some argue that this is the same as hiding the unit behind cover in the last few turns of a game, but I suspect that this is not the case. Is there anything in the rule book, or FAQ that expressly states that anything left in reserve at the end of a game count as destroyed, and it's correlation to victory points?

[Lord_Gareth]

Hey, if you want to rip apart my idea, go ahead. Just make sure you tell me how to make it better when you're done

The Iron Watchmen

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"No oaths. No battlecries. We will not sully His sacred words with profane ears."

Home World: Crucius (formerly known as Blasthaven)
Chapter Colors: Gunmetal Gray (Primary) and Royal Violet (Secondary)
Parent Chapter: Blood Ravens

Despite occasional accusations (and convictions) of foulest heresy, the vast majority of the Adeptus Mechanicus are fervent worshippers of the Emperor as the Omnissiah. And when key members of the Mechanicus learned of flaws in the Golden Throne, they acted. Ordinary humans were not going to work for what they needed. Something more was necessary.

Blood Raven geneseed was used without the chapter's knowledge or consent, and the Iron Watchmen were formed; a Space Marine chapter answering directly, and only, to the Adeptus Mechanicus. Crucius, once a forge world and now a desolate wasteland (the victim of a clerical error in the coordinates of a massive orbital bombardment), proved to be the perfect recruiting ground.

Though the Iron Watchmen's mission is simple - rediscover ancient technologies, unlock the hidden secrets of the already-known, and to study Xeno technology, all in an attempt to repair the Golden Throne. Only their chapter master knows the full extent of their mission, and only he knows on whose authority they commit heresy. Still - the greater good must be served, and if he and his men are damned to save the Imperium, so be it.

The Iron Watchmen are a young chapter, and as such suffer from a curious mixture of being well and ill equipped. On the one hand, their connection to the Adeptus Mechanicus - not to mention their mission - gives them access to superb personal weaponry and access to a vast supply of techpriests and techmarines. On the other hand, tanks don't grow on trees, and their youth means they have no Dreadnaughts on which to call for their wisdom or their ferocity. Without access to the support or sanction given other Space Marine chapters, they must fight a battle of master tactics in order to secure their objectives and retreat with minimal loss of life.

As for the rest of the Imperium, little is known of the strange, silent Watchmen. Reports from certain worlds in conflict-zones indicate the rapid deployment of grey-clad Space Marines against a Xeno threat. Fierce, short battles are then fought, and the Marines retreat after securing the corpses from the battlefield. The Black Templars actually know the most about them; one of their crusades caught up to the Watchmen's battle-barge, the Angel of Silence. Last-minute transmissions from the unfortunate crusade indicate that the Watchmen responded to hails with a barrage of lethal firepower before retreating, leaving the Battle Brothers on board to fend for themselves. There were no survivors. This incident would eventually be reported to the Inquisition, who are now hunting the Angel of Silence.

In battle, the Iron Watchmen are silent, and some of their Battle Brothers have actually gone so far as to cut their tongues out. They communicate solely through hand-signals and a form of electronic code. Disregard for approved Imperium battle-tactics is the word of the day; Do as you must is the first law of battle taught to potential Watchmen. They are too few to do otherwise.

Aaand done.

[Zincorium]

Well, I recommend telling us what models you have, so we can yell at you until you turn them into a functioning list! There's nothing to never make the newness wear off quite like winning your first real match.

Current models available:

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HQ:
1 Deamon prince (assembled, painted Emperor's children colors)
1 Terminator lord/sorceror (unassembled)

Elites:
5 Terminators (assembled, painted all sorts of color schemes
5 Possessed (will probably get used as spare parts, I like the models but not the mechanics)

Troops:
12 Berzerkers (assembled)
10 CSM (assembled, painted various colors)
8 Thousand sons (assembled, painted)
20 Iron hands + three packs of Noise marine weapons (not assembled, goal is three sets of 6 noise marines + spares)
1 Rhino (assembled, will probably get more)

Heavy support:
5 Obliterators (unassembled, may convert one into another Deamon prince)
1 Defiler

I've got a cool idea for an Emperor's children subfaction, and that's what I'll probably base most of my army around once I get the things that are unassembled assembled and paint everything to the desired colors.

Story so far:

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Two centuries ago, an Iron Hands vessel was forced into the warp with a badly injured navigator after a vicious battle with Dark Eldar raiders.

There are no coherent records of what transpired during it's time in the warp, but the ship reappeared, dead in the water, in a region of the eye of Terror controlled by the Emperor's Children. When they boarded the intact but near-lifeless ship, they found within it a legion of insane space marines led by their former chaplain, now possessed by a Keeper of Secrets. The remainder of the crew had disappeared, not even bones remaining. The chaplain's strength was now the equal of a recently created Daemon Prince. He referred to himself, when he spoke, as the Gilded One.

It was discovered that, with some slight training, these new renegades easily adapted to the cult of the Noise Marines, and under the direction of the Gilded One, forged the armor and symbols of the Emperor's Children for their use. They also rely heavily on the allies of Chaos, the Obliterators and Defilers, to replace the heavy weaponry that had been lost before they turned renegade.

What I'm wondering is how I should put it together for a tournament, I believe there will be one in the area I'm moving to in February. I don't know what point values will be used.

Edit: Is it typical to paint things like Obliterators the color of your army, or is it traditional to leave them in their original colors?

[Cheesegear]

Is it typical to paint things like Obliterators the color of your army, or is it traditional to leave them in their original colors?

Obliterators are just Marines who've come into contact with the Virus. So, Obliterator's armour should be coloured whatever it was before they started mutating. So, it looks more in-theme if your Obliterators' armour is the same colour as the rest of your army. So, yeah, it is typical. Obliterators do not have an 'original' colour, it's more of a default colour (Black Legion).

Also, the Fluff thread is your friend.

[Arcanoi]

Current models available:

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HQ:
1 Deamon prince (assembled, painted Emperor's children colors)
1 Terminator lord/sorceror (unassembled)

Elites:
5 Terminators (assembled, painted all sorts of color schemes
5 Possessed (will probably get used as spare parts, I like the models but not the mechanics)

Troops:
12 Berzerkers (assembled)
10 CSM (assembled, painted various colors)
8 Thousand sons (assembled, painted)
20 Iron hands + three packs of Noise marine weapons (not assembled, goal is three sets of 6 noise marines + spares)
1 Rhino (assembled, will probably get more)

Heavy support:
5 Obliterators (unassembled, may convert one into another Deamon prince)
1 Defiler

Okay, here's what I'd personally recommend.

500 points

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Daemon Prince
-Mark of Slaanesh
-Lash of Submission
-Wings
155 points

Transport-molesting goodness, 5 attacks in assault, WS 7, the ability to move your opponent out of cover? This guy is a badass at 155 points.

Noise Marines x 5
-Sonic Blaster x 5
125 Points

These guys are FANTASTIC, their shooting is amazing and they only have a small penalty for moving with both Assault and Heavy modes. Blastmasters are great at later points, but the blast isn't as good and the points are generally needed elsewhere...

Thousand Sons x 5
-Aspiring Sorceror
--Doombolt
-Rhino
220 Points

AP 3 Bolters? 4+ Invul save? Yes please!

Total Points - 500

A well-rounded force, with great dakka and decent assault options if need be.

You could also do this.

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Daemon Prince
-Mark of Slaanesh
-Lash of Submission
-Wings
155 points

Noise Marines x 5
-Sonic Blasters x 4
-Noise Champion
--Power Weapon OR Doom Siren
150 Points

If you think you'll be facing more limited models with higher saves, the Power weapon will serve you well, while if you think your opponent will be using a horde-based force, the Heavy Flamer will do better.

Khorne Berserkers x 6
-Skull Champion
--Power Weapon
-Rhino
196 Points

At points like these, Berserkers like this are monsters (Almost as good as your Prince) in CC. The Rhino is there because their dakka isn't as important as your Noise Marines, who you want Slogging because they can still shoot Assault 2 Bolters.

Total Points - 501

A less-well rounded force, but scarier in assault. 500 points isn't really enough to put your men into fluff-sized squads.

or

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Daemon Prince
-Mark of Slaanesh
-Lash of Submission
-Wings
155 points

Noise Marines x 5
-Sonic Blaster x 5
125 Points

CSM x 10
-Aspiring Champion
--Power Weapon
-Icon of Chaos Glory
-Plasmagun x 2
220 Points

Decent troops, not as fantastical as your other choices, but larger. They can hunt heavier infantry pretty well.

Total Points - 500

More models than the other forces, and thus a more solid choice.

At 1000 points, it becomes more up to personal preference, and you can get a lot more variety, but the following is a good core.

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Daemon Prince
-Mark of Slaanesh
-Lash of Submission
-Wings
155 Points

Noise Marines x 6
-Sonic Blasters x 5
-Blastmaster
185 Points

Total Points - 340 Points

From here, you want to figure out if your force is going to be focusing on CC or Dakka, and choose your second troop as such.

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Either

Khorne Berserkers x 10
-Skull Champion
--Power Weapon
-Rhino
--Daemonic Possession
295 Points

or

Thousand Sons x 7
-Aspiring Sorcerer
--Doombolt
-Rhino
--Daemonic Possession
286 Points

are good choices.

Now that you have your minimum requirements, you could throw in

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CSM x 10
-Aspiring Champion
--Power Weapon
--Melta Bombs
-Melta Guns x 2, or Flamers x 2
-Rhino
--Daemonic Possession
260 or 280 Points

Either an assaulty catch-all squad or a vehicle-assaulty catch all squad. A decent choice, and puts a good amount of models on the board.

or

Obliterators x 2 or 3
150 or 225 Points

These guys are good. The ability to choose what weapon you're shooting is a great utility, as is Deep-striking. These guys can really bust-up vehicles or heavier infantry squads.

or

Defiler
-Reaper Autocannon and CCW, Heavy Flamer and Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter, or Twin-linked Lascannon + Havoc Launcher.
150 or 180 Points

The Defiler is a nice walker, and you can outfit it for Light Vehicle hunting, Infantry slaughter, or heavier vehicle-hunting at a whim.

or

Terminator Champions x 4
-Chainfist
-Pair of Lightning Claws x 3
-Icon of Khorne
-Land Raider
--Extra Armour or Daemonic Possession
470 or 475 Points

CC Slaughter, even Monoliths and Landraiders quake at 4 Chainfist attacks, plus you get a Landraider. Daemonic Possession gets your Slaughterers to the enemy safer, but you lose a point of BS which can be important for your Lascannons.

or

Terminators x 4
-Terminator Champion
--Chainfist
--Reaper Autocannon
-Combi-Melta x 3
-Icon of Tzeentch
220 Points

Vehicles shiver in their treads when this squad approaches, and it's no weakling in CC or Dakka either.

[Zincorium]

Thanks for the advice- although some of that is impossible with WYSIWG due to how I put the models together.

I'll keep all of that in mind, but some experimentation will be necessary, obviously.

[Irbis]

Also, I think the separate grading is to stop you from running certain lists like of 6 Thunderguns, 4 Conversion Beamers, and filling the rest of your points out with scouts.

Out of curiosity, why is that wrong?

How they grade you, exactly?

And how many of these you need to be accepted? One? Two?

It might also be meant to penalize the guy who takes 3 Thunderguns, 2 Conversion Beamers, and 4 squads of scouts along side 1 Thundergun, 1 Beamer, a squad of scouts, and a few Sternguards. Because the second one is at least theoretically a fair list, and they combine to make a horribly unfair one.

Why so unfair?

I have to admit to know little about the game, but I like painting planes/figures, and I think it was said this game is balanced. Guess not

[Arcanoi]

It's the force-orgs, sir. You see, the Force Org chart is there for a reason, so your 2000 point list doesn't consist of Twelve Daemon Princes, 14 Avatars, or 16 Conversion Beamers. The force Org Chart is considered valid by pretty much everyone up to 3000 points, but the tournament in reference is a doubles tournament with seperate Force-Org Charts, effectively making it for most purposes a 2000 point match with 2 Force-Orgs. There are already some very cheeseable things, but doubling your cheese can get a bit... absurd. Like the Aforementioned list, that can kill most things before it gets within 20" by throwing 72" range blast weapons and forcing everything to take difficult terrain tests every turn it tries to move, while pinning anything that isn't a vehicle or fearless with 6-8 squads of scouts.

[Zorg]

Hey, if you want to rip apart my idea, go ahead. Just make sure you tell me how to make it better when you're done

The Iron Watchmen

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"No oaths. No battlecries. We will not sully His sacred words with profane ears."

Home World: Crucius (formerly known as Blasthaven)
Chapter Colors: Gunmetal Gray (Primary) and Royal Violet (Secondary)
Parent Chapter: Blood Ravens

Despite occasional accusations (and convictions) of foulest heresy, the vast majority of the Adeptus Mechanicus are fervent worshippers of the Emperor as the Omnissiah. And when key members of the Mechanicus learned of flaws in the Golden Throne, they acted. Ordinary humans were not going to work for what they needed. Something more was necessary.

Blood Raven geneseed was used without the chapter's knowledge or consent, and the Iron Watchmen were formed; a Space Marine chapter answering directly, and only, to the Adeptus Mechanicus. Crucius, once a forge world and now a desolate wasteland (the victim of a clerical error in the coordinates of a massive orbital bombardment), proved to be the perfect recruiting ground.

Though the Iron Watchmen's mission is simple - rediscover ancient technologies, unlock the hidden secrets of the already-known, and to study Xeno technology, all in an attempt to repair the Golden Throne. Only their chapter master knows the full extent of their mission, and only he knows on whose authority they commit heresy. Still - the greater good must be served, and if he and his men are damned to save the Imperium, so be it.

The Iron Watchmen are a young chapter, and as such suffer from a curious mixture of being well and ill equipped. On the one hand, their connection to the Adeptus Mechanicus - not to mention their mission - gives them access to superb personal weaponry and access to a vast supply of techpriests and techmarines. On the other hand, tanks don't grow on trees, and their youth means they have no Dreadnaughts on which to call for their wisdom or their ferocity. Without access to the support or sanction given other Space Marine chapters, they must fight a battle of master tactics in order to secure their objectives and retreat with minimal loss of life.

As for the rest of the Imperium, little is known of the strange, silent Watchmen. Reports from certain worlds in conflict-zones indicate the rapid deployment of grey-clad Space Marines against a Xeno threat. Fierce, short battles are then fought, and the Marines retreat after securing the corpses from the battlefield. The Black Templars actually know the most about them; one of their crusades caught up to the Watchmen's battle-barge, the Angel of Silence. Last-minute transmissions from the unfortunate crusade indicate that the Watchmen responded to hails with a barrage of lethal firepower before retreating, leaving the Battle Brothers on board to fend for themselves. There were no survivors. This incident would eventually be reported to the Inquisition, who are now hunting the Angel of Silence.

In battle, the Iron Watchmen are silent, and some of their Battle Brothers have actually gone so far as to cut their tongues out. They communicate solely through hand-signals and a form of electronic code. Disregard for approved Imperium battle-tactics is the word of the day; Do as you must is the first law of battle taught to potential Watchmen. They are too few to do otherwise.

Aaand done.

Not that radical really, Iron Hands and Mentors have very deep ties to the Mechanicum. Now the only thing that sticks for me is the AdMech creating these guys to fill a need. The AdMech has access to far more powerful tech than Marines even, and their Skitarii can be just as powerful in many cases.

My suggestion would be that the AdMech find a new chapter and offer them lots of support, and over time they eventually make the chapter into their puppets.
This way the AdMech has a force that can go where there work won't be noticed as much, who is totally deniable if things get out ("You mean the Administratum didn't know they were doing this research? I'm as shocked as you are!").

As for game terms you could use the standard Codex: Space Marines with Masters of the Forge as HQ's, though you don't gain the benefit not running dreadnoughts. Lots of Sternguard could be used to represent their high-tech nature rather than veterans.

Codex Dark Angels gives you the ability to make a well equipped force with lots of Terminators and bikes and speeders.

Codex Blood Angels is coming in April, but will mostly be close assault based and feature the option to take loads of dreads, so probably not your style.

Codex Space Wolves can provide a middle ground between the regular Codex and Dark Angels - you can field Terminators as squad leaders or troops (though if you take them as troops you can't field them as elites as well in the latest FAQ). Mark of the Wulfen and Thunderwolves could be used to represent Xenos tech, and you can load each squad up with loads of gear: Eleven men, two power fists, combi-melta, melta gun, plasma gun stuck in a Land Raider Crusader - the best supplied by the Mechanicus!

[dsmiles]

...that can kill most things before it gets within 20" by throwing 72" range blast weapons...

You mean like my 3 Hammerhead Hunter Cadre?

[onasuma]

Hey, if you want to rip apart my idea, go ahead. Just make sure you tell me how to make it better when you're done

The Iron Watchmen

Spoiler

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"No oaths. No battlecries. We will not sully His sacred words with profane ears."

Home World: Crucius (formerly known as Blasthaven)
Chapter Colors: Gunmetal Gray (Primary) and Royal Violet (Secondary)
Parent Chapter: Blood Ravens

Despite occasional accusations (and convictions) of foulest heresy, the vast majority of the Adeptus Mechanicus are fervent worshippers of the Emperor as the Omnissiah. And when key members of the Mechanicus learned of flaws in the Golden Throne, they acted. Ordinary humans were not going to work for what they needed. Something more was necessary.

Blood Raven geneseed was used without the chapter's knowledge or consent, and the Iron Watchmen were formed; a Space Marine chapter answering directly, and only, to the Adeptus Mechanicus. Crucius, once a forge world and now a desolate wasteland (the victim of a clerical error in the coordinates of a massive orbital bombardment), proved to be the perfect recruiting ground.

Though the Iron Watchmen's mission is simple - rediscover ancient technologies, unlock the hidden secrets of the already-known, and to study Xeno technology, all in an attempt to repair the Golden Throne. Only their chapter master knows the full extent of their mission, and only he knows on whose authority they commit heresy. Still - the greater good must be served, and if he and his men are damned to save the Imperium, so be it.

The Iron Watchmen are a young chapter, and as such suffer from a curious mixture of being well and ill equipped. On the one hand, their connection to the Adeptus Mechanicus - not to mention their mission - gives them access to superb personal weaponry and access to a vast supply of techpriests and techmarines. On the other hand, tanks don't grow on trees, and their youth means they have no Dreadnaughts on which to call for their wisdom or their ferocity. Without access to the support or sanction given other Space Marine chapters, they must fight a battle of master tactics in order to secure their objectives and retreat with minimal loss of life.

As for the rest of the Imperium, little is known of the strange, silent Watchmen. Reports from certain worlds in conflict-zones indicate the rapid deployment of grey-clad Space Marines against a Xeno threat. Fierce, short battles are then fought, and the Marines retreat after securing the corpses from the battlefield. The Black Templars actually know the most about them; one of their crusades caught up to the Watchmen's battle-barge, the Angel of Silence. Last-minute transmissions from the unfortunate crusade indicate that the Watchmen responded to hails with a barrage of lethal firepower before retreating, leaving the Battle Brothers on board to fend for themselves. There were no survivors. This incident would eventually be reported to the Inquisition, who are now hunting the Angel of Silence.

In battle, the Iron Watchmen are silent, and some of their Battle Brothers have actually gone so far as to cut their tongues out. They communicate solely through hand-signals and a form of electronic code. Disregard for approved Imperium battle-tactics is the word of the day; Do as you must is the first law of battle taught to potential Watchmen. They are too few to do otherwise.

Aaand done.

As has been said, this looks to me to be pretty similar to the Iron hands (which I just happen to play). In apocylpse games, I count my troops as plague marines to represent bionics and have scouts using codex space marines along with everything else. Not too tricky, and not hard once you've explained it all.

Oh, check out the collectors range on the GW site. They have Iron hand space marines with awesome bionics which could easily work in this army.

[Erloas]

Seeing the questions about the Avatar reminded me of a quandry I am in.
At the moment, my local club is holding a small 500 point format tournament, with the minimum requirements being 1 HQ and 1 Troops. My list is as follows.

Spoiler

Show

Eldar 500pts

Autarch w/ Swooping Hawk Wings, Power Sword, and melta Gun

5x Eldar Pathfinders

4 Swooping hawks + Exarch w/ Sunrifle, intercept and Skyleap powers.

Fire-Prism Grav Tank

First, as for the reserves, I don't think they have said much about what happens if they don't come in because turn 5 things come in automatically without a roll. So the only way that could happen is if you leap out on turn 5 and the game ends. I know in fantasy where they don't have the same reserve system the units that do come in later are counted as destroyed/lost if they don't come in by the end of the game.

As for the list, I'm not sure what swooping hawks are really gaining you that can't be done pretty much as well with Dire Avengers. If you end up with any capture points (and still have to have troops to capture, which might not be the case with this tournament) having the extra troops is good. Deep striking just makes it that much easier (especially multiple times) to loose the unit to terrain instead of fire. The avengers loose a bit of range, but have higher str, and you will get quite a few more models for the same price. They might even be doable without an exarch just to get more models because I don't think either power is exceptionally useful for the unit in that small of games (I think you would have a harder time justifying bladestorming and loosing a round of fire with so few units)
I don't have my book handy for Swooping Hawks point cost, but I know it is probably about 60% more the Dire Avengers.

It makes it a bit harder for the autarch to put his meltagun to use, but the fire prism should be able to handle any anti-tank you might need at 500 points. He would still have some good use with the DAs, just probably a different weapon choice. Although you could do a Farseer with spear, which is almost as good at 12" because it doesn't seem too safe to reliably get within 6" of a tank with the rest of the hawks anyway. A good doom or fortune would probably have more consistent results against all armies too, since I can see a lot of cases where he will never get to use that fusion gun if you want to take advantage of that 24" range with the hawks.

[Trixie]

Actually, what is the Collectors section in GW? I noticed it recently, and they seem to have many very nice minis - why are these not included in their particular Army sections?

[dsmiles]

Actually, what is the Collectors section in GW? I noticed it recently, and they seem to have many very nice minis - why are these not included in their particular Army sections?

Dunno, but it's always been like that...

[onasuma]

Generally, models that dont have rules anymore/havent had rules ever.

Edit: Or that have been replaced by plastics.

Edit 2: Or that are objectives rather than models.

[hamishspence]

The helmetless Techmarine with Servo-harness can be used- I think that was Collectors Range.

[Trixie]

Generally, models that dont have rules anymore/havent had rules ever.

Edit: Or that have been replaced by plastics.

Um... if so, then what many current models are doing there? Guardsman Marbo? Cadian Soldiers? All Chaos Lords/Terminators? Librarians/Chaplains? Current, fresh Space Wolves Standard Bearer/Techmarine?

The only minis I can see there as old/obsolete/replaced is that unpainted Necron Lord, but he looks really awesome and costs less than regular one (he is still legal, right?). Oh, and that collection of antique SMs armors (second and fifth are nice - a pity you can't buy squads like these). And that Orky music band

[Zorg]

Collectors models are usually ones that aren't generally carried in brick and mortar stores.

[onasuma]

Theres lots of models that now have plastic alternatives - guardsmen captains, marines with heavy weapons, chaos terminators etc. Still usable, but replaced.

Some models though are collectors only due to this -

See cool techmarines in shop

go to website to get it

see a box of classic iron hands online

buy both.

[dsmiles]

Um... if so, then what many current models are doing there? Guardsman Marbo? Cadian Soldiers? All Chaos Lords/Terminators? Librarians/Chaplains? Current, fresh Space Wolves Standard Bearer/Techmarine?

The only minis I can see there as old/obsolete/replaced is that unpainted Necron Lord, but he looks really awesome and costs less than regular one (he is still legal, right?). Oh, and that collection of antique SMs armors (second and fifth are nice - a pity you can't buy squads like these). And that Orky music band

ORKY MUSIC BAND?????? I MUST HAVE IT!!!!!!!

[Etcetera]

ORKY MUSIC BAND?????? I MUST HAVE IT!!!!!!!

Are you ready to rock?

[dsmiles]

Are you ready to rock?

This is so awesome...I think I would paint them up more like KISS though...

[dsmiles]

Speaking of un-used models...

Why did the Kroot Mercernaries list fall by the wayside? I like the FW kroot/knarloc models...

[onasuma]

I have those models.

Gw got rid of the kroot list as they decided giving people free stuff was unfair. They are till in apoc and imperial armour though.

[dsmiles]

I have those models.

Gw got rid of the kroot list as they decided giving people free stuff was unfair. They are till in apoc and imperial armour though.

I don't think they're tourney-legal anymore though, are they? The people I play with only play with tourney-legal lists...

[onasuma]

They can be. Depends on the tornament. IA's are a subject for much debate, but they are balanced.

[dsmiles]

They can be. Depends on the tornament. IA's are a subject for much debate, but they are balanced.

Oh, I know they're balanced, I play a IA-enhanced Tau list. At the moment, I'm working on integrating the new XV-9 Hazard Battlesuit. I already use the XV-81s, 84s, 88Bs, and 89s.

[DaedalusMkV]

I think it might have something to do with the Kroot Merc codex being painfully outdated and played by less than 100 people worldwide.

Is anyone else kind of pissed at the release schedule GW is pulling right now? "5th edition" codex releases:
CSM
Orks
SM
Guard
Space Wolves
Tyranids
Blood Angels
Dark Angels?

Poster boy releases italicized. I know that Space Marines sell the most out of any of the armies, and the DA coming after BA is still a rumour, but do we honestly need every second release to be a Space Marine faction? Other armies need updated too, and I remember the time when you could go a whole year without a Space Marine book release...

[hamishspence]

CSM, Orks, etc were more "late 4th"

Eldar, Codex Daemons, and Dark Angels also fall into this category. (though there may be a 5th ed version upcoming).

Dark Eldar have the most justification to complain- but Space Wolves also hadn't had a new codex since early 3rd ed- this may be why they were the first to get one after marines and Guard.

[dsmiles]

I think it might have something to do with the Kroot Merc codex being painfully outdated and played by less than 100 people worldwide.

Is anyone else kind of pissed at the release schedule GW is pulling right now? "5th edition" codex releases:
CSM
Orks
SM
Guard
Space Wolves
Tyranids
Blood Angels
Dark Angels?

Poster boy releases italicized. I know that Space Marines sell the most out of any of the armies, and the DA coming after BA is still a rumour, but do we honestly need every second release to be a Space Marine faction? Other armies need updated too, and I remember the time when you could go a whole year without a Space Marine book release...

WHAT!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Ahem...I mean...

No schedule for Tau yet?