The Age of the Warriors - a ToB expansion book idea

[DragoonWraith]

Oncoming Storm uses Sleight of Hand, though according to its fluff it came well after the Temple of the Nine.

[Sereg]

Anyway, Godenesque mentioned an interesting idea in his new discipline Sanguine Brand, where one of the enemies of Reshar has devoted the rest of his life in creating a temple that basically betrays the very core of the temple of nine. An anti-temple of nine, if you will.

This leads us to an interesting question. What is the actual over all philosophy of the temple of nine?

This is an interesting idea and question. To explore this, let’s take a look at what each temple discipline represents and what it’s opposite would be. For my interpretation (which may be different to yours):

Desert wind: The discipline of speed and fire; its opposite: inhibiting the options and movement of the enemy, cold, being immovable, prevents enemy from accessing areas, slows their movement rates, reduces mobility options, possibly based on balance, probably uses reach weapons.

Devoted spirit: The discipline of faith, spirituality and belief; its opposite: Crushing the faith of others, causing fear and hopelessness, demoralising, possibly based on intimidate, possibly uses sinister looking weapons, possibly same as Shadow hand’s opposite (see below).

Diamond mind: The discipline of quickly deciding what needs to be one and then doing it before anyone has a chance to react; its opposite: preparation, knowing what will happen beforehand, planning defeats spontaneity, possibly based on perform (dance) as the battle was already choreographed, possibly uses finessable weapons, possibly same as opposite of Tiger claw (see below).

Iron heart: The discipline of skill, being a honed, straight-up combatant; its opposite: fighting dirty (as Golden-esque mentioned), using methods that none can defend against, exploiting universal weaknesses, using unfair dis/advantages, as Golden-esque mentioned, possibly uses slight of hand and easily concealed/disguised weapons.

Setting sun: The discipline of using your opponents strength against him rather than direct assault; its opposite, well, direct assault, crushing your opponent directly, viciously and suddenly before he can turn your attacks against you, probably uses two-handed, high-damage weapons, possibly the same as the opposite of Stone dragon (see below).

Shadow hand: The discipline of striking suddenly and without warning to kill the unaware; its opposite: walk right up to your opponent and describe exactly how you’re going to kill him in detail, then do it, taunting him the whole time, possibly demoralising, fear-inducing, etc.

Stone dragon: The discipline of endurance, toughness, the ground, power and strength; its opposite: killing quickly and suddenly, end the fight quickly so endurance is worthless, do huge damage, damage con, ignore DR and sources of AC, attack, fast, strong, hard and repeat in quick succession, give yourself opportunities to attack more early in the fight, the sky, possibly based on jump.

Tiger claw: The discipline of wild brutality and vicious instinct; its opposite: Logic, thought and planning defeating emotion and instinct, determined movements, always acting to gain the advantage, always thinking ahead.

White raven: The discipline f inspiring and synergistically using your allies; its opposite: divide and conquer, defeat those whom outnumber you, prevent allies from aiding one another, turn them against one another, make them attack each other, turn them against one another.

Possible names that could easily be improved upon in order: Frozen limb, Taunting cobra, Elegant strategist, Cutthroat opportunist, Crushing meteor, Forceful wedge.

Now if we add the strategies of the temple together w e get: Act quickly with skill, power and endurance, using your opponents strength against him whilst inspiring and using your allies to ensure victory.

And to add the philosophies of the opposite disciplines: Limit your opponent and his allies using every trick in the book, planning your victory to take him out of the fight.

This sounds like it could be interesting but deserves better homebrewers than myself.

[JoshuaZ]

I think this degree of flavoring and work would be a bit too extensive for what we intend, especially since many of the homebrew disciplines have a lot of flavor already that would be very hard to work into this idea.

[Golden-Esque]

Then here's a new question. Which of the fellow Homebrewers wish to mesh their creations into a new Temple with Sanguine Brand? Together, we will conquer the Temple of Nine Swords!

And to add the philosophies of the opposite disciplines: Limit your opponent and his allies using every trick in the book, planning your victory to take him out of the fight.

Keep the above quite in mind when thinking on whether or not your Discipline is a good fit for the Anti-Temple.

[DracoDei]

Well, my first draft of a creature that is designed around Falling Anvil is up now:
Tittering Brick Squirrel.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I've had already been toying with a discipline concept that matches well with the anti-Devoted Spirit/Shadow Hand theme. However, the concept is at something of a snag as the current draft is a warblade discipline called 'Illuminating Beacon' that is based on using the various knowledge skills to undermine your opponent's defenses as well as creating and/or exploiting their weaknesses. I was going to make access to the discipline available only after taking a feat that added 'Knowledge (universal)' to the warblade skill list. I'm still working on it, but I just figured I'd share so as to potentially fuel the collective's creative fires.

[Barbarian MD]

Here's a feat for the project, which allows you to stack your martial levels with one non-martial levels for the purpose of initiator level.

Martial Practice

Pre-requisite: At least one level in a martial adept class.

Benefit: Choose one of your martial adept classes, and any one other class you have. Your levels in the second class stack with your levels in the chosen martial adept class for the purpose of determining your Initiator Level in that class. Maneuvers readied by that class that depend on Initiator Level therefore gain the full level in the other chosen class, rather than half, and when taking new levels in the chosen martial adept class, or any Prestige Class that adds maneuvers to that class, the full level in the second class may be added to the Initiator Level to determine the highest level maneuver you may learn. Your levels in the second class also stack with your levels in the chosen martial adept class for determining when you may swap out maneuvers known.

Normal: Classes other than martial adept Prestige Classes add half their level to your Initiator Level.

Special: The stacking for maneuver swap progression is retroactive. On taking this feat, you may immediately replace the appropriate number of maneuvers known with other, potentially higher level, maneuvers. You may not gain more than two maneuvers of any given level higher than you could previously learn as a result of this immediate swap, though you may count maneuvers as higher level than they actually are for the purpose of this restriction. You may also replace one of your stances known.

Special: A fighter may select this as a fighter bonus feat.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139163

[elliott20]

remember guys, the anti-temple of nine doesn't really HAVE to be a gathering of disciplines that is made to specifically be the antithesis of every single discipline there.

Do not forget that the de la Vega's ultimate motive is take revenge upon Reshar by destroying the one thing he spent his whole life building and possibly kill Reshar himself, rather than say, do what is essentially an evil counterpart.

We can ultimately treat this in a number of ways:

1. de la Vega's anti-temple of nine is really just an affiliation of warriors who all share a hatred for Reshar or his temple. They come together not because they want to form an alternative choice, but simply because they all want to destroy the temple. (Meaning, you don't have to re-write the homebrew disciplines to fit, just need to tailor a specific master who has a grudges against Reshar and the Temple of Nine)

2. de la Vega's anti-temple of nine exists to attack the very core philosophy not of the individual disciplines, but of the school itself. That is, it is there to destroy the very vision that Reshar was trying to achieve - the unity of the martial world. Perhaps, what they really sought is to further segment and break apart the martial world.

3. de la Vega's anti-temple of nine exists solely as a personal grudge match between him and Reshar and he wants to attack not the core purpose of the temple, but to defile Reshar's personal philosophy.

4. de la Vega wants to simply erect another group to oppose him as another political entity, nothing more.

1 and 4 is easy. Reshar probably has plenty of enemies and so all we need to do is just create a couple masters to be the heads of this temple (as the people who bring with them their knowledge of their own discipline) and go from there. Remember a while back we talked about creating factions that are really just schools where they cherry pick their maneuvers from disciplines but are strictly speaking from a rules stand point not a separate discipline at all? That's where we can do this.

2 and 3 are trickier since this means we need to understand what Reshar's personal take is and have to tailor the disciplines that get brought in to match.

the key here is that we don't need to make NEW disciplines for this. We can simply just have de la Vega go around and bring in masters who have issues with Reshar and want revenge.

In fact, you could even bring in disgruntled masters of the original temple of nine, if you want!

[Sereg]

Ooooooh, I was quoted for advisory purposes!

@elliot20 I see your point. What you say certainly makes a lot of sense. However, having described these theoretical disciplines kind of makes me want to see them. Still, it isn't my call.

[Golden-Esque]

remember guys, the anti-temple of nine doesn't really HAVE to be a gathering of disciplines that is made to specifically be the antithesis of every single discipline there.

Do not forget that the de la Vega's ultimate motive is take revenge upon Reshar by destroying the one thing he spent his whole life building and possibly kill Reshar himself, rather than say, do what is essentially an evil counterpart.

We can ultimately treat this in a number of ways:

1. de la Vega's anti-temple of nine is really just an affiliation of warriors who all share a hatred for Reshar or his temple. They come together not because they want to form an alternative choice, but simply because they all want to destroy the temple. (Meaning, you don't have to re-write the homebrew disciplines to fit, just need to tailor a specific master who has a grudges against Reshar and the Temple of Nine)

2. de la Vega's anti-temple of nine exists to attack the very core philosophy not of the individual disciplines, but of the school itself. That is, it is there to destroy the very vision that Reshar was trying to achieve - the unity of the martial world. Perhaps, what they really sought is to further segment and break apart the martial world.

3. de la Vega's anti-temple of nine exists solely as a personal grudge match between him and Reshar and he wants to attack not the core purpose of the temple, but to defile Reshar's personal philosophy.

4. de la Vega wants to simply erect another group to oppose him as another political entity, nothing more.

1 and 4 is easy. Reshar probably has plenty of enemies and so all we need to do is just create a couple masters to be the heads of this temple (as the people who bring with them their knowledge of their own discipline) and go from there. Remember a while back we talked about creating factions that are really just schools where they cherry pick their maneuvers from disciplines but are strictly speaking from a rules stand point not a separate discipline at all? That's where we can do this.

2 and 3 are trickier since this means we need to understand what Reshar's personal take is and have to tailor the disciplines that get brought in to match.

the key here is that we don't need to make NEW disciplines for this. We can simply just have de la Vega go around and bring in masters who have issues with Reshar and want revenge.

In fact, you could even bring in disgruntled masters of the original temple of nine, if you want!

Alikarin ahn Tollerria, of the Chthonic Serpent Discipline, could have his backstory expanded a little to give him a reason to wish to oppose Reshar. He's called a "friendly rival" currently in the text.

Commander Gurran, of the Scarlet Bravura Discipline, appears to be utterly opposed to the White Raven Discipline, so it makes some sense that he might join de la Vega merely out of spite of his brother siding with Reshar.

The Dancing Leaf Discipline could be added if a Master who was throughly insulted by Reshar's choice to not allow him into the Temple of Nine Swords was created.

If their respective Authors agree, this would knock the anti temple up to four disciplines.

[elliott20]

I'll check with them later. That definitely can work. Certainly, if a discipline already has it written into it's fluff the potential to bear a grudge against Reshar or the Temple of Nine, then we definitely can just drop them right into the roster.

I'm going to just say no to writing up whole new disciplines for this though. While people are more than welcome to write up more disciplines if they want, I think creating them for the specific purpose of being an evil counterpart is kind of silly. (i.e. even Nale and co had to grow and develop beyond just being evil mirrors)

[DragoonWraith]

Alikarin, as written, had his own little dojo, never a part of any other Temple. He also was also on good terms with Reshar, they merely had a professional rivalry.

All that could, of course, change. It depends on how we want to define Reshar's personality. If Alikarin felt as if Reshar had insulted his chosen style by not including it, he might be inclined to join the anti-Temple.

[dspeyer]

We've got reasonable doubles for the disciplines, though some are a little weak:

{table]Desert Wind|Glacial Chill|fast and fire vs. slow and cold
Devoted Spirit|Falling Anvil|staunch dedication to a cause vs. rampant sillyness
Diamond Mind|Far Realm|ordered efficient mind vs. insanity
Iron Heart|Broken Blade|pure skill vs. techniques to defeat skill
Setting Sun|Monkey Paw|throw enemies using their power vs. crush them with your own
Shadow Hand|Scarlet Bravura|don't be seen vs. make sure everyone sees you
Stone Dragon|Gentle Breeze|earth and power vs. air and speed
Tiger Claw|Knowing Heart|raw brutal power vs. careful gentle precision
White Raven|Army of One|have friends vs. do without friends
[/table]

I'm not 100% happy with Far Realm, Broken Blade or Scarlet Bravura as opposites, but they make some sense (once you've got most of them, the rest fill in like Pompei).

I don't really see the anti-temple playing a big role in the world building, but there's certainly room for one.

[Golden-Esque]

We've got reasonable doubles for the disciplines, though some are a little weak:

{table]Desert Wind|Glacial Chill|fast and fire vs. slow and cold
Devoted Spirit|Falling Anvil|staunch dedication to a cause vs. rampant sillyness
Diamond Mind|Far Realm|ordered efficient mind vs. insanity
Iron Heart|Broken Blade|pure skill vs. techniques to defeat skill
Setting Sun|Monkey Paw|throw enemies using their power vs. crush them with your own
Shadow Hand|Scarlet Bravura|don't be seen vs. make sure everyone sees you
Stone Dragon|Gentle Breeze|earth and power vs. air and speed
Tiger Claw|Knowing Heart|raw brutal power vs. careful gentle precision
White Raven|Army of One|have friends vs. do without friends
[/table]

I'm not 100% happy with Far Realm, Broken Blade or Scarlet Bravura as opposites, but they make some sense (once you've got most of them, the rest fill in like Pompei).

I don't really see the anti-temple playing a big role in the world building, but there's certainly room for one.

That's okay, because Sanguine Brand takes the slot of Diamond Mind's counterpart. Its a Discipline focused around breaking your enemies physically while Diamond Mind is able personal mental perfection.

While this list is a good place to start, I want to point out that de la Vega is NOT Nale. He's not running around, looking for Masters simply because they're the Evil Opposites of Reshar. Whereas Reshar unites all the temples under him, de la Vega is forming more of a coalition. Multiple masters from several schools of battle that all have a reason to dislike Reshar or that wish to see the Temple of the Nine Swords fall. People might join up with de la Vega for other reasons too; maybe he had a friend who was a master of another Discipline, or maybe another Master simply liked the ideals being taught at de la Vega's temple.

I like Scarlet Bravura as sort of a thematic (though not really mechanical) opposite to White Raven, simply because of the Lore provided. The Scarlet Commander has a great reason to side with de la Vega; one of the best Swordmasters of all time picked his brother's teachings over his own to be including within the Temple of Nine Swords. That being said, I think Disciplines should be included in this temple due to fluff before true mechanics, and I also agree that the conflict between the two schools shouldn't take over the campaign setting.

[JoshuaZ]

I'm not sure that the de la Vega idea fits in with the general fluff very well. If we need to explain why the other disciplines aren't as widely known that gets serious issues if they were taught at a major school. Moreover, it brings up serious issues about the events surrounding the fall of the Temple of Nine Swords. For example, was de la Vega's school still around? Did it disband after his death? If not, did they assist the army in attacking the Temple or did they just stand by neutrally? If so, why didn't the survivors go to his school to seek refuge? We may be able to handle all these questions, but it is a lot of work.

[DracoDei]

I would prefer that there NOT be a noticable temple in opposition to Reshar's... at least until the Shadow-Hand and Tiger-Claw masters left, and even then they were probably too busy with battle plans and gathering allies to settle down long to train anyone...

[JoshuaZ]

I would prefer that there NOT be a noticable temple in opposition to Reshar's... at least until the Shadow-Hand and Tiger-Claw masters left, and even then they were probably too busy with battle plans and gathering allies to settle down long to train anyone...

I'm inclined to agree. Especially because it would be very hard to explain how the original Tome of Battle never mentioned anything that major. If someone had a dojo going with a handful of schools that would be ok. Maybe this fellow never got anywhere nearly as prominent or successful as Reshar?

[pyrefiend]

I'm inclined to agree. Especially because it would be very hard to explain how the original Tome of Battle never mentioned anything that major. If someone had a dojo going with a handful of schools that would be ok. Maybe this fellow never got anywhere nearly as prominent or successful as Reshar?

Or perhaps he was just an opportunist who tried to fill the void after the fall of the original temple (and ultimately failed?)

[DragoonWraith]

I also tend to agree with Draco...

[elliott20]

a wise consideration, people. I think we should then instead of making a major rival temple, it instead will be a school with a small collection of masters, band together and just never got anywhere.

We could even say that perhaps this school did not survive beyond de la Vega but in an ironic way he got his revenge by being the catalyst which caused the split within the school itself. I mean, did they ever write down what it was that caused the split?

I think we can figure that part out, and then simply say that de la Vega's school was able to plant the seed for that, but the school itself did not live long enough to see it come to fruition.

[Golden-Esque]

Or perhaps he was just an opportunist who tried to fill the void after the fall of the original temple (and ultimately failed?)

I think it'd be more likely that he'd want to shame Reshar's memory by succeeding where he failed. Too bad de la Vega apparently failed as well :P.

[dspeyer]

This does remind me of an idea I had for an organization: The Masters' Circle.

It began with three Masters of Nine who independently had the same idea: that they had mastered all there was and to keep learning they needed to invent more. Each created a discipline, and declared it the fabled tenth. They met all at once, realized the possibilities were vaster than they had thought, and founded a school together, where they taught their new disciplines (and the nine old ones) to all who wished to learn. Soon they declared a rule that any student could join them as a master by inventing a comparable discipline.

At first, few tried. Those who did spent many years devoted to the task. Good work was done. Eventually the founders died of age, but the circle continued. Many useful disciplines emerged there, and the school's fame grew. As the fame grew, more people wanted the title of master. Not the accomplishment, just the title. The pressure proved to much and standards slipped. Disciplines invented in this time were highly specialized, such as the infamous Hopping Toad discipline (techniques for fighting with one leg cut off). Then they slipped further. Disciplines became minimalist, useless, plagiarized, or occasionally nonexistant (but large sums of money changed hands). Within twenty years of the last founder's death it was a joke. Fame was replaced by scorn, and the school disbanded. All that was done there was tarred in reputation, even the early work. Many who heard of the school resolved to pay no attention to anything besides the original Nine.

Still, much of the good (and some of the hilariously bad) work that was done by The Masters' Circle survives, and can be found if you know where to look.

[elliott20]

now THAT works. It can be played for a serious transition or be played for jokes. (I mean, really, a style that is specialized for one legged warriors? That's just hilarious.)

I mean, I know of ONE fiction example in Jing Yong novels right now. (there's one where you either have to be a woman or a eunuch, which leads to what I believe is the first transgender martial artist character in Jing Yong's stories.)

But anyway, I digress. That could work. We simply say that the author of the original ToB is an unreliable narrator who took some editorial liberties in leaving out a large part of the Martial Lore in history. That can work.

[Sereg]

I agree that this makes sense. I've actually wondered about the possibility of martial adepts who believe that the temple would never have fallen if it included their tenth discipline.

Also, now I really want to see that Hoppoing toad discipline.

[dspeyer]

Also, now I really want to see that Hoppoing toad discipline.

Hopping Toad
It's just a flesh wound.

Any warrior risks injury. A great warrior keeps fighting. Even on one leg.

Skill: Jump
Weapons: Staff, Cane (cudgel), Crutch (see below)

Maneuvers:
1
Staunch the Bleeding -- Counter (su), when an attack inflicts ongoing damage, negate the ongoing part.
Stance of Helplessness -- You play up your injury to look harmless. To recognize you as a threat, a creature must make a DC 15 sense motive check. Creatures who fail this check are flat-footed against you. For each attack you have made in the last 5 minutes, decrease the DC by 5.
2
Chicks Dig Scars -- Boost, gain a +1 bonus to diplomacy and +2 to intimidate for every 10 hit points you are below your maximum.
3
Shove Off -- Strike. Make an attack normally. If your attack exceed the target's AC by 5 or more, move 5 feet without AOOs.
4
Bleed all over Him -- Boost or Counter, can only be used if you took at least 10 points of piercing or slashing damage recently. Gain a +10 circumstance bonus to rolls to avoid (counter) or escape (boost) grapple by using your own blood as a lubricant.
5
Five Foot Hop -- Like a five foot step, but a swift action. Requires a DC 5 jump check (no penalty for standing start).
6
Stance of the Crane -- Move full speed despite injuries to one leg.
7
Evasive Hop -- Counter. Use DC 20 jump check (no standing penalty) to avoid a trip, bull rush, or similar attack.
8
Dual-Crutch Strike -- If you are wielding two matching bludgeoning weapons, you may attack with both at once as a standard action with no penalty. If both hit, do an additional 4d6 of damage and stun the target for one round (unless he makes a fort save against the total damage dealt by the maneuver)
9
Hop on Head -- Strike. Make a high-jump check (no standing start penalty). If your jump does not exceed you target's height, the maneuver is wasted. If it does, attack with a +10 bonus and deal 4d6 extra damage for every foot of extra height on the jump.

Crutch
Exotic one-handed weapon, does 1d10 bludgeoning (20x2). Counts as light for purposes of two-handed fighting (but no other purposes).



P.S. Except for the hamstring feat, I couldn't find rules for having one leg cut off. Did I miss them?

[Sereg]

Yay! That is awesome. I don't know about balance, but still, it's hilarious.

[Eldan]

Actually, a dedicated build could do enormous damage with that last maneuver...
Thri-Kreen, jump spell, skill item, maybe factotum levels, if you can somehow manage all that (probably only possible in gestalt before level 20), you can do enormous damage.

[elliott20]

yeah, but prior hitting level 20, you're spending 19 of those levels as a one legged warrior.

[Sereg]

I wonder what would happen if you were taking on a cleric and he tried casting regenerate on you.

[Eldan]

Actually: could someone who has more than two legs use this discipline? I'm thinking Remorhaz here