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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Magic that is class neutral?

    One of the things I've tossed around for awhile was the idea of magic being class neutral in the system.

    Just as anyone can pick up a sword and stab someone, anyone who can read or recite can lean a spell, and it just comes down to your mental stats as to how well you'd be able to pull off the magic, just as your physical stats have a huge influence on your ability to fight in combat.

    Has this been attempted yet?

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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Yes, it has been.

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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Its called 4e. Everyone can do everything, given enough time.

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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Universal magic?

    Just make incantations for every spell. Or have just one spellcaster class that everyone is free to take levels in.

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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Its called 4e. Everyone can do everything, given enough time.
    But as I found out now I'm learning it, you have to jump through several hundred hoops to have a decent Ranger who uses a two-hander, and not dual-wield. >.<

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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShakeHandsMan View Post
    Its called 4e. Everyone can do everything, given enough time.
    I'm getting tired of those posts...
    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    I swear, about 50% of what makes BW awesome is the little stuff like that that's applicable to just about any system.

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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Ya 4e magic isn't all that hot for non-mages IIRC.

    One way I thought of doing it was to eliminate the wizard / etc. classes and price spells similar to scrolls. Actually components involved in that cost can be whatever flavorful things you decide to use.
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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryumaru View Post
    But as I found out now I'm learning it, you have to jump through several hundred hoops to have a decent Ranger who uses a two-hander, and not dual-wield. >.<
    Funny that its easier for a ranger to pick up spells and use them correctly, then to just hold a sword in 2 hands

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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Funny that its easier for a ranger to pick up spells and use them correctly, then to just hold a sword in 2 hands
    Sadly so. x.x God forbid I don't want to play a dual-longsword Ranger and want a BFS. >.<

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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Quote Originally Posted by harpy View Post
    One of the things I've tossed around for awhile was the idea of magic being class neutral in the system.

    Just as anyone can pick up a sword and stab someone, anyone who can read or recite can lean a spell, and it just comes down to your mental stats as to how well you'd be able to pull off the magic, just as your physical stats have a huge influence on your ability to fight in combat.

    Has this been attempted yet?
    2E did this for Psionics. Everyone has a chance to be psionic.

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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    2E did this for Psionics. Everyone has a chance to be psionic.
    IIRC (its been a while) the mechanic for this was a d% or something similar rolled during character creation, and if you rolled poorly too bad. I think OP is looking for some way to enable everyone to have access to spells or powers.

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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Here's the thing... even if you have magic that is class-neutral, there's still going to be specialists in it. What I would do first is put everyone on the Wizard system... you keep a spellbook, and fill it with the spells you know, and prepare certain spells each day. The list would probably resemble a hybrid wizard/cleric list, or maybe adept.

    You then can cast spells-per-day equal to your bonus spells, plus more if you're in a class that specialize in these sorts of things (i.e. wizards).

    There are a few ways you can go with this idea. First is that there is one stat which gives you spell bonuses... everyone who is smart enough can figure out a few wizard spells. The other is that you've got a variety of types of casting, and each attribute gives you bonus spells on their list. If you have a 15 Int, a 16 Wisdom, and a 12 Charisma, you can cast one 1st and one 2nd level Wizard spell, one first, one second, and one third level cleric spell, and one first level Bard spell (I went with Bards since they have a unique list compared to sorcerers and wizards).

    One thing to note, however: This plays merry hell with spell trigger and spell completion items.
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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    I once threw together a set of house rules for a wuxia-esque game where ToB manouvers were class-neutral and based on your BAB (you use your character level in other places where you would normally have used your BAB) but it hasn't seen use.
    Last edited by Prime32; 2009-12-09 at 04:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    With regard to 3e, I don't see the real need to have all those spell lists. With a few exceptions like True Strike, what's so bad about a divine caster throwing fire balls around or arcane casters curing wounds? Without spell lists, all you'd have to do is take levels in whichever class agrees with your best mental stat. I don't know if that's class neutral enough for ya, but I think it's better.

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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Working on it extensively right now. Considering release on saturday.
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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryumaru View Post
    But as I found out now I'm learning it, you have to jump through several hundred hoops to have a decent Ranger who uses a two-hander, and not dual-wield. >.<
    Answer A: go Beast Companion. Lots of the beast based powers don't require dual wielding.

    Answer B: Grab a double-weapon. Both a 2-hander, and a pair of weapons.

    Answer C: Play a Barbarian or an Avenger or a Fighter, and be trained in nature.

    Answer D: Do some combination of the above with the Hybrid class, or multiclass, rules.

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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tequila Sunrise View Post
    With regard to 3e, I don't see the real need to have all those spell lists. With a few exceptions like True Strike, what's so bad about a divine caster throwing fire balls around or arcane casters curing wounds? Without spell lists, all you'd have to do is take levels in whichever class agrees with your best mental stat. I don't know if that's class neutral enough for ya, but I think it's better.
    Agree whole-heartedly. If clerics weren't a sacred cow, I think it would've been best if they'd been jettisoned entirely, with primary spellcasters all starting off, at least, as fragile and weapons-poor.
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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    Agree whole-heartedly. If clerics weren't a sacred cow, I think it would've been best if they'd been jettisoned entirely, with primary spellcasters all starting off, at least, as fragile and weapons-poor.
    Erm, except that in early editions, "clerics" didn't play like that _at_all_. So..... is this some sort of spontaneously generative sacred cow?
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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Answer A: go Beast Companion. Lots of the beast based powers don't require dual wielding.

    Answer B: Grab a double-weapon. Both a 2-hander, and a pair of weapons.

    Answer C: Play a Barbarian or an Avenger or a Fighter, and be trained in nature.

    Answer D: Do some combination of the above with the Hybrid class, or multiclass, rules.
    A: |Don't want a companion.

    B: Hate the look of silly things like double-swords. I'm looking for the full on 7ft greatsword effect.

    C: Not what I'm looking for. Actually want to be a Ranger with Archery, who mixes it up in melee with a two-hander who doesn't suck at it.

    D: Still seems a lot of hoop jumping for just making one part of a character fit in place.

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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryumaru View Post
    C: Not what I'm looking for. Actually want to be a Ranger with Archery, who mixes it up in melee with a two-hander who doesn't suck at it.
    What part of being a Ranger appeals to you? The name?
    Because that is fluff.

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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    A woods-man who can shoot the crap out of stuff, and then whip out a two-hander and go to town on some orcs. More a mix of Aragorn and Legolas, than the overly boring (I see enough people on dual-wielding on WoW >.>) 'It's either shooting stuff or dual-wielding'

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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Erm, except that in early editions, "clerics" didn't play like that _at_all_. So..... is this some sort of spontaneously generative sacred cow?
    Depends on what you mean by "early editions" and "play like that".

    In 1st and 2nd editions, Clerics were pretty stout. While they didn't have DMM cheese, the core cleric had full casting from 1st level on, plus good armor and OK weapons (the warhammer is woefully overlooked). Some of the spells introduced (like Divine Power or Righteous Might) gave them another level of power in d20, they were still very close in AD&D to the concept you get in 3e, especially when you compare them to the other classes of their edition.

    In D&D (which I am far less familiar with), they still weren't bad. While they had a delayed spell casting, they still had decent armor and ok weapons. Even discounting these, though, you're looking at 20+ years of "cleric" meaning "someone with strong spells, strong armor, and ok weapons." And turn undead, but that's beside the point.

    If you move clerics in with wizards (i.e. no armor, few weapons), while keeping their spellcasting primary, you change the D&D archetype of cleric a lot... but you also remove a primary imbalance. If you change "Arcane Spell Failure" to simply "Spell Failure", you remove another... while wizards may be able to get a +8 armor class, it costs them either substantial money or spell slots... it costs a cleric 1500gp.
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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryumaru View Post
    A woods-man who can shoot the crap out of stuff, and then whip out a two-hander and go to town on some orcs. More a mix of Aragorn and Legolas, than the overly boring (I see enough people on dual-wielding on WoW >.>) 'It's either shooting stuff or dual-wielding'
    That sounds like a fighter multiclassed to ranger/rogue. The fighter powers get you your two-hander powers, and your ranger/rogue nets you ranged powers. Or you could do it the other way around: Ranger multiclassed to fighter. Either way will get you what you want.
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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryumaru View Post
    A woods-man who can shoot the crap out of stuff, and then whip out a two-hander and go to town on some orcs. More a mix of Aragorn and Legolas, than the overly boring (I see enough people on dual-wielding on WoW >.>) 'It's either shooting stuff or dual-wielding'
    Ranger with Avenger multiclass.

    Avengers run on WIS, and since Rangers use WIS as a secondary stat, you don't have to worry about MAD. Swap out for some Avenger melee powers, and there ya go.
    Last edited by Artanis; 2009-12-09 at 05:30 PM.
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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    A mechanic exists for allowing non-casters access to magic, it's called Use Magic Device. Though if you wish for magic to be a little more easy to use, perhaps removing UMD and simply saying that if your scores are X high you can use certain scrolls/wands.

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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nero24200 View Post
    A mechanic exists for allowing non-casters access to magic, it's called Use Magic Device. Though if you wish for magic to be a little more easy to use, perhaps removing UMD and simply saying that if your scores are X high you can use certain scrolls/wands.
    Or the precursor to 4e's Ritual system (which noone seems to remember when they say things like
    Quote Originally Posted by ShakeHandsMan View Post
    Its called 4e. Everyone can do everything, given enough time.
    in regards to rituals)

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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Or simply choose a Non-D20 system (GURPS), or modifying the D20 so that spells (or spell schools) become skills. Thing is, usually that throws vancian magic out of the window. For example, "Arcane Magic" or "Divine Magic" could be simply cross class skills to everyone but primary casters. It would require some fiddling (What is your Caster level ? Skill Rank-3 / -2 ?), maybe adding more skill points.

    In a spell school system, you could have a Fighter with 6 ranks in Arcane Necromancy (assuming 1 rank = 1 caster level) using Vampiric touch in combat.

    The whole thing needs some fiddling around, but it's possible.

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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtar View Post
    Or simply choose a Non-D20 system (GURPS), or modifying the D20 so that spells (or spell schools) become skills. Thing is, usually that throws vancian magic out of the window. For example, "Arcane Magic" or "Divine Magic" could be simply cross class skills to everyone but primary casters. It would require some fiddling (What is your Caster level ? Skill Rank-3 / -2 ?), maybe adding more skill points.

    In a spell school system, you could have a Fighter with 6 ranks in Arcane Necromancy (assuming 1 rank = 1 caster level) using Vampiric touch in combat.

    The whole thing needs some fiddling around, but it's possible.
    Hmm... Maybe even make it a bit more sorc like. Say you had 5 ranks in Cast: Conjuration. This would grant you a number of spells with total spell levels = 5. So you's be able to have either 5 0th and 1st level spells, a 2nd and 3rd level spell, ect. But you can only ever have spells whos level is half you HD, rounded down (Example: Bob the Fighter1 has 4 ranks in Cast: Conjuration. He can select 4 spells, but half of 1 rounded down means he can only take 0th level spells). When ever you add more points to the skill you can re asign half the existing points to new spells.

    Casting them could be a skill check = 10+spell's level and/or desired Caster level. You can not apply any feats to the spells granted in this way (so casters still get that going for them) Not sure if it should have a limit or not though.
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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Quote Originally Posted by harpy View Post
    One of the things I've tossed around for awhile was the idea of magic being class neutral in the system.

    Just as anyone can pick up a sword and stab someone, anyone who can read or recite can lean a spell, and it just comes down to your mental stats as to how well you'd be able to pull off the magic, just as your physical stats have a huge influence on your ability to fight in combat.

    Has this been attempted yet?
    Yes, by Steve Perrin. He even published and released his D&D houserules as a system in its own right. You might know it as Basic Role-Playing, the game engine for RuneQuest, Call of Cthulhu, Elric, Pendragon, etc.

    (RuneQuest is relevant to your interests here. Anyone can learn magic, because the world is inherently magical.)

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    Default Re: Magic that is class neutral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starsinger View Post
    Or the precursor to 4e's Ritual system (which noone seems to remember when they say things like in regards to rituals)
    Well there was that whole part where they're terrible, useless, and broken, existing in a state of quantum sucky-imposition.
    Seriously, a crappy damage spell that takes 90 minutes to cast? And sends you to Dis?
    And it's even from unearthed arcana, which gave us flaws.
    Last edited by Doc Roc; 2009-12-10 at 12:34 PM.
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