Sorceror ACF

[Zom B]

So thinking about giving Sorcerers the option to distance themselves a bit more from Wizards and give them a bit of a unique flair. With this class feature, I'm not really trying to go for a Blue Mage or anything from Final Fantasy, but the idea is there.

Mimic Mage

You do not automatically learn new spells when advancing in level. Instead, you learn by mimicking the gestures and sounds associated with spellcasting. Whenever you succeed on a Spellcraft check to identify a spell being cast, if that spell is of a spell level you can cast and you have an available Spells Known slot, you may choose to learn it. You may cast spells from any class list, but if that spell does not appear on the list of spells available to Sorcerers or Wizards, add one to the spell level of the spell. For instance, you may learn to cast Cure Light Wounds, but it would be a 2nd level spell for you. The spell learned becomes an arcane spell, and uses your Charisma score to determine its effectiveness.
You may scribe the spells you know onto a scroll with the Scribe Scroll feat, but if the spell is not normally available from the Sorcerer and Wizard spell list, none but you may understand it.

(I chose to make the spell Arcane to avoid making the Sorcerer carry holy symbols or worship a deity. I put the Scribe Scroll restriction in to prevent the Sorcerer from scribing an arcane Cure Light Wounds and giving the scroll to his Wizard friend.)

[dsmiles]

So thinking about giving Sorcerers the option to distance themselves a bit more from Wizards and give them a bit of a unique flair. With this class feature, I'm not really trying to go for a Blue Mage or anything from Final Fantasy, but the idea is there.

Blue Mage?

Anyways, I like it. IMHO, it does very well in distancing Sorcerers from Wizards, and makes them more versatile at the same time.

[Zom B]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_mage#Blue_Mage

The Blue Mage is a mage who is able to replicate the special attacks of his/her opponents. The precise extent of and mechanism for this capacity differs from game to game. Most Final Fantasy games require that an enemy use the ability at least once during combat. For example, Blue Mages in Final Fantasy V must be targeted by the ability to learn it; once the ability has been learned, however, any Blue Mage in the party may use it. Players who adopt the Blue Mage job in Final Fantasy XI have a random chance to learn abilities executed during combat, by absorbing the essence of felled opponents.

So this is not quite to that extent. If it was, you would have a character that could learn the spell-like and/or supernatural abilities of a monster by witnessing it/getting hit by it/killing it.

[Milskidasith]

It's horribly underpowered.

Why? If you are limited to the same number of spells known, this just means you have to work to find good spells, and are limited to what the DM gives you, rather than getting to pick. While there are probably a few useful druid and cleric spells out there, I'd rather actually getting to have control over my spells known.

So, to put it simply...

I lose the ability to automatically fill my spells known with any sorcerer spell I want, and the limited flavor a sorcerer has at having natural magic power.

Instead, I get:

A sorcerer who gets by because he's good at imitating those who actually have talent, and who has the same spells known limitation, but has to find spells to use. But, I get to have cleric and druid spells a level past their effectiveness!

I can see this being used in one situation: If you are making a premade character for a one shot, you can fill all your slots anyway, so you have an expanded spell list. If you want to take this from 1-20, though... you're screwed.

[Tinydwarfman]

Mmm, you're right, Milskidasith, the whole:

Whenever you succeed on a Spellcraft check to identify a spell being cast, if that spell is of a spell level you can cast and you have an available Spells Known slot, you may choose to learn it.

Does seem to say that, but I'm not sure if he meant it. What say you OP? I have to agree with Milskidasith, it is VERY weak w/ that interpretation.

I would suggest a fairly steep spellcraft check, or some other limiter to prevent the Sorc from learning too many spells. Maybe have them use up a spell slot (same level) and a full round action to prevent the Sorc from copying every spell he sees. or a limit of 1 spell per day. Just throwing stuff out there.

EDIT : when you said "Spells known slot" did you mean to include a table? because that would change everything.

[Bibliomancer]

It's an interesting idea, but instead why not say

"You can replace one of your spells known with it."

This would be good, thematically, and also fit with the fact that dragons can cast certain divine spells as arcane.

While you're at it, you could give sorcerers the Mimic Spell Ability 1/day at 7th level, which allows them to cast any spell that they see and interpret sometime later that same day as a spell of the same level, or level +1 for non-wizard spells. This could increase to 2/day at 13th level and 3/day at 19th level.

[Milskidasith]

It's an interesting idea, but instead why not say

"You can replace one of your spells known with it."

This would be good, thematically, and also fit with the fact that dragons can cast certain divine spells as arcane.

While you're at it, you could give sorcerers the Mimic Spell Ability 1/day at 7th level, which allows them to cast any spell that they see and interpret sometime later that same day as a spell of the same level, or level +1 for non-wizard spells. This could increase to 2/day at 13th level and 3/day at 19th level.

Ok, but that kind of defeats the purpose of it being an ACF, no? If you get all benefits, then it's just a power boost, which is useful, sure, but not really what the OP was going for, AFAIK.

[Temotei]

I wonder...do they still get to have their 0 and 1st level spells at 1st level right away? Otherwise, sorcerers are even more susceptible to attacks, because all they have are those crappy weapons until they find somebody using a spell and succeed on a Spellcraft check.

[Iferus]

I'd give all the 0-level spells as freebies.

Also, since the spell list will be susceptible to all DM limits, I would say the spells known for this sorcerer are doubled from level 1-8. Also, new spells may replace older spells of the same level in the memory of sorcerers.

Then, whenever a sorcerer can identfy a spell, he may learn it as a move action (since identification often takes a standard action).

[dsmiles]

EDIT : when you said "Spells known slot" did you mean to include a table? because that would change everything.

I believe that this is based off of the standard PHB "Spells Known" table for sorcerers.

[Tinydwarfman]

I believe that this is based off of the standard PHB "Spells Known" table for sorcerers.

But that would make it horribly underpowered. I suggest doubling what the PHB says for spells known, like what Iferus said. Then a Sorcerer would feel very different, and have a pretty similar power level to what it has now. Maybe still give them 1 new spell of their choice when they level up if your players don't want to feel they didn't gain anything by leveling.

[Milskidasith]

I'd give all the 0-level spells as freebies.

Also, since the spell list will be susceptible to all DM limits, I would say the spells known for this sorcerer are doubled from level 1-8. Also, new spells may replace older spells of the same level in the memory of sorcerers.

Then, whenever a sorcerer can identfy a spell, he may learn it as a move action (since identification often takes a standard action).

Identifying a spell is a nonaction... you automatically do it when a spell is cast. It should be a free action to learn when you identify, otherwise a sorcerer's going to be wasting his time in combat to learn more spells.

[Eldan]

As a suggestion: give them more spells known to balance that. Or, to make it a little more complicated, give them normal spells known, and an extra spell known per level, which can be filled this way.

[Zom B]

Wow, thanks for all the input, everybody.

I hadn't really considered just how long this would place a sorcerer in a very vulnerable state. If he's the only caster in the group, spells are going to be hard to come by. Maybe allow this variant sorcerer to learn from scrolls?

I think I will increase the spells known, at least by half again if not double. I will probably allow them to go ahead and pick up a spell upon level-up to add to their spells known, as was suggested.

I stand firm on the decision to increase the spell level by 1 for outside spells. Something doesn't seem quite right about a 6th-level caster who can lob a Fireball one round and cast a Cure Serious Wounds the next, and have both be at the same effectiveness as the party wizard and the party cleric, respectively. However, since the sorcerer is a level behind the wizard, I may bump up the spell level advancement to the wizard's (learn 2nd level spells at 3rd level instead of 4th, and so on).

This is becoming less an ACF and more a new class.

[Milskidasith]

You stated learning a new spell takes up a spells known slot, so there is no way he can have more spells than a standard sorcerer.

[Zom B]

You stated learning a new spell takes up a spells known slot, so there is no way he can have more spells than a standard sorcerer.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Let's say this sorcerer advances to 4th level, giving him 1 Spells Known slot. That's coming straight out of the PHB. He does not automatically fill it with a spell, as per the variant. Instead, he can fill the slot by identifying a spell being cast by someone else.

Since the sorcerer isn't getting to pick his spells known, it would make sense to let him have more Spells Known slots so that he has a nice variety.

[Milskidasith]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Let's say this sorcerer advances to 4th level, giving him 1 Spells Known slot. That's coming straight out of the PHB. He does not automatically fill it with a spell, as per the variant. Instead, he can fill the slot by identifying a spell being cast by someone else.

Since the sorcerer isn't getting to pick his spells known, it would make sense to let him have more Spells Known slots so that he has a nice variety.

That's my point... You never specified that he gets extra spells known, so this is horribly underpowered. Of he gets more spells known, which you should specify in the OP, then it's less weak.