Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 70
  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    JeminiZero's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    My 2 cp: If I were a surface dwelling kingdom who is constantly getting attacked by merfolk over centuries, I would at some point, start investing seriously in stuff that can fight them off, and even take them on in their home underwater.

    Idea 1: (Not copied from Avatar despite what it might seem). Breed an army of sea creature lycanthropes. All you need is a good-ish sea animal strain to infect a bunch of voluntary peasants, with the promise that they, their children and so on and so forth, will have a secure future as the kingdom's defenders.

    Of course the first generation will have a hell of a time since their transformations are uncontrolled. But their children will have full control over their transformation, and will become dedicated to your cause when merfolk attack their seaside village/guardpost and massacre their parents (who incidentally also find that being unable to transform when you actually want to sucks tremendously).

    After that subsequent generations will have full control over their form. They can shift to hybrid form letting them wield weapons/armor, breath underwater, swim around and basically remind merfolk why burning down villages tends to make angry high level PCs.

    Idea 2: Warforged. And considering that Merfolks are acting like jerks all over the world, there will be a considerable market for water-proof fighting machines. If that isn't enough, you could make a sentient-construct X-prize: 100,000 gp (on top of the large garunteed market) for the first company to invent a way to cheaply mass produce Warforged.
    Trissociate: 3.5 Homebrew Base Class. Mix & match abilites & templates to make virtually any sort of character!
    Spoiler
    Show
    Theoretical Optimization Amusements
    Emerald Legion A Mind Flayer's guide to creating near-invincible super soldiers.
    Spellblade Tennis Throw out nigh infinite spells per round.
    Sleeping Raven Infinite Blood Frenzy nigh infinite melee damage exploit.

    Minor Accolades
    Quote Originally Posted by jmbrown View Post
    so deliciously flavorful
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaeron View Post
    Bravo Bravo
    Quote Originally Posted by Kansaschaser View Post
    I think you just saved my city.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2009

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post
    My 2 cp: If I were a surface dwelling kingdom who is constantly getting attacked by merfolk over centuries, I would at some point, start investing seriously in stuff that can fight them off, and even take them on in their home underwater.

    Idea 1: (Not copied from Avatar despite what it might seem). Breed an army of sea creature lycanthropes. All you need is a good-ish sea animal strain to infect a bunch of voluntary peasants, with the promise that they, their children and so on and so forth, will have a secure future as the kingdom's defenders.

    Of course the first generation will have a hell of a time since their transformations are uncontrolled. But their children will have full control over their transformation, and will become dedicated to your cause when merfolk attack their seaside village/guardpost and massacre their parents (who incidentally also find that being unable to transform when you actually want to sucks tremendously).

    After that subsequent generations will have full control over their form. They can shift to hybrid form letting them wield weapons/armor, breath underwater, swim around and basically remind merfolk why burning down villages tends to make angry high level PCs.

    Idea 2: Warforged. And considering that Merfolks are acting like jerks all over the world, there will be a considerable market for water-proof fighting machines. If that isn't enough, you could make a sentient-construct X-prize: 100,000 gp (on top of the large garunteed market) for the first company to invent a way to cheaply mass produce Warforged.
    I'm stealing all of this because it's so deliciously flavorful. Government sanctioned underwater lycanthropes... it reeks of pulp fantasy.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Alleine's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    A mound of Rainbowflesh
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    Don't count the Sahuagin out completely. If the landwalkers get gov't sanctioned lycanthropes, then the merfolk should have some others to help do their dirty work. Sahuagin mutant barbarians as slaves. If the fighting gets nasty just drop a few of these boys into the area and let them go wild while the merfolk stay at a safe distance. Rage + Sahuagin frenzy + 4 claw/weapon attacks? Jawesome.
    Super-amazing avatar by Ceika!
    << It's a mound of rainbowflesh, do NOT forget that.

    Quote Originally Posted by xNadia View Post
    See the rainbowflesh, EAT the rainbowflesh, BELIEVE THE RAINBOWFLESH!

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Gnorman's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Seattle
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    From Frank Trollman's Races of War:

    The first thing to understand about the Sahuagin is that they have already won. Completely. The surface of the world is about 3/4 ocean and they own almost all of it. From the standpoint of the Sahuagin, the only places on the planet that have non-Sahuagin races in them are the stale crusts that they already had the presence of mind to cut off their sandwich. All of the non-Sahuagin races are all ghettoized. Even the other aquatic races have been marginalized to the point where they only get the brackish water (Locathah), the rocky shallows (merfolk), the underground darks (Kuo-Toans), or the muddy salt marshes (Lizardfolk). The real real estate the ocean and coastline are pretty much the private playground of the Sahuagin.

    Individually, Sahuagin will kick your ***, and collectively they will kick the *** of any nation you happen to support. The combined populations of all other sapient races on any planet are less than the population of Sahuagin on that planet. The Sahuagin are also much smarter and better organized than you are so their cities are actually more productive than yours per person in addition to the fact that they have more cities than all the other races and their cities are more populous.

    The Sahuagin mutate constantly, but are not inclined to Chaos. They just all have different appearances and capabilities. But every one of them is gifted with super intelligence and thick natural armor. The Sahuagin deep seers are some of the most gifted wizards on the planet and honestly have nothing better to do than just scry on crap and tell the armies where there's some cool stuff to go loot. From time to time the Sahuagin will come onto land to beat the living crap out of people and take control of important or valuable items. Then they take the spoils of war and drag it back under water, laughing the whole time.

    Against this backdrop of crushing inferiority, how do the other races maintain? Most of them are fighting for stakes so small that they haven't even noticed that the vast majority of the planet is owned and operated by brutally efficient fish men. But one race that certainly has noticed the power discrepancy is the race of elves most likely to be forgotten: the Sea Elves. They actually live in many of the same areas and have a war going with them.

    Life is hard for a Sea Elf, because every one of them is born into a post-apocalyptic world where mutants run amok and hunt them for sport. But it's actually even worse than that because in addition to simply being physically and intellectually inferior to the Sahuagin like everyone else is they are actually stupid and useless even contrasted with the surface races. An average Sea Elf is as much the intellectual inferior to a Sahuagin as a Griffin is to a normal human. The Sahuagin consider the Sea Elves to be little more than animals, and they aren't wrong.

    The Sea Elves keep surviving at all because they see farther than Sahuagin in low-light conditions (and are thus often able to swim away from potential encounters with Sahuagin during the morning and twilight hours that Sea Elves leave their hidden nests), and also because every so often a Sahuagin gets born who looks exactly like a Sea Elf. These Sahuagin mutants, called Malenti, are a little bit worse than a normal Sahuagin in that they lack the rending claws. But they're still stronger and smarter than any Sea Elf that ever swam the 7 seas. So when these Malenti realize that they get a crap deal from Sahuagin society, they often as not run off to join the Sea Elves, where they almost immediately rise to positions of leadership. They also gain crap loads of experience very quickly because the odds are so stacked against them. In short, the reason that the Sea Elves still exist is that they actually are a splinter faction of Sahuagin that uses real sea elves as beasts of burden instead of simply hunting them like the more normal Sahuagin groups do.

    And yet, despite the fact that the Sahuagin have won at everything, they still continue to fight the other races and take their children and stuff. Partly this is to feed the insatiable demands of their Baatezu masters, and partly this is because on some deep level the Sahuagin are convinced that it actually couldn't possibly be that easy. In addition to looking for bling and candy to take from the weaker races, the Deep Seers are also combing the world for the one thing that the Great Mothers are pretty sure exists somewhere: the hidden army that the other races are putting together to take the world back from the clutches of the Sahuagin Empire. As far as anyone knows, it doesn't exist, but for some reason the Great Mothers keep insisting that the searching continue. Maybe they know something we don't?
    Last edited by Gnorman; 2009-12-15 at 09:54 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Orc in the Playground
     
    theMycon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    Quote Originally Posted by Volkov View Post
    Hopefully the gas your breathing isn't pure oxygen, which will rapidly kill you at high pressures. Oxygen+Helium=Good. Pure oxygen=Bad and gets worse at higher pressures. Oxygen+Nitrogen=Very bad. Pure Nitrogen=Wait, your supposed to be dead already from inhaling this stuff.
    A partial editor of Encyclopedia of Toxicology, 2nd ed clarifies- what he said is extremely accurate underwater, but not so much on land.
    Note that this isn't my field of expertise, just a side job where I learned a hell of a lot. If you want to know anything at all about Salts & Mycotoxins; I can talk for hours.


    While you're correct that divers use a helium oxygen mix, this is still misleading. Heliox's used primarily because it's light, cheap, and Helium doesn't interact much with the bloodstream- it essentially passes through you, and when pressure around you goes up, it stays light enough to breath. When you get too low & pressure goes way up, they mix in hydrogen 'cause it's even lighter. It is basically a vessel to get your body the proper density of gas & still have enough oxygen.

    Respiration is more complicated than this- but for simplicity say you need to breath a certain pressure of O2 to breathe, so multiply "atmospheres"* by "percent of Oxygen" and hope you end up with something around 15-30% to emulate what we're used to on earth. Thus, spacesuits often use pure oxygen at about one third atmosphere to get a little more O2 in the blood than normal, and they're fine for hours. But, as you said, Divers need something under 10% (and lots of inert "filler" gas) or they'll get oxygen toxicity.

    The air we breath is about 80% nitrogen. It is only dangerous under water because of being so relatively heavy. Nitrogen itself isn't the least bit poisonous- sometimes they "carbonate" beer with it instead of CO2 because it makes smaller bubbles (less head)- but breathing pure N2 will eventually kill you, because it'll eventually replace the oxygen you need. Think of it as holding-your-breath-while-sprinting; or (more closely) exhaling-only-breathing; you won't last long, but it's not because of the gas you're sucking it


    *1 = total pressure of the air we breath at sea level, roughly.
    Last edited by theMycon; 2009-12-15 at 10:01 PM. Reason: Re-wording
    If it's not obvious, insert a after my post.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    waterpenguin43's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Vancouver BC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    There is a celestial elsewhale in my campaign setting that is gigantic enough that it can and did swallow a coastal city. It did so to save it from the approaching undead army, and the city has now adapted to living inside the stomach of a massive whale, thanks to magic and architectural logic. Does anybody else like this idea?
    Also, in my campaign, about half of the sahuagin are good aligned, due to a schism between them in which about half of them atoned for their misdeeds.
    Last edited by waterpenguin43; 2009-12-15 at 10:32 PM.
    Beautiful avatar by Mr_Saturn
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximum Zersk View Post
    ...I think that counts as your own Crowning Moment of Awesome, WP.
    Thank you's:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Lovely avatar of an NPC in Camp Half-Blood of mine by Crimson Angel:
    Thanks to Green Bean for my Spheal avatar.

    Also thanks to VT for awarding me with a VT monster competition award.


    Four internets and a cookie!

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    JeminiZero's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    Quote Originally Posted by jmbrown View Post
    I'm stealing all of this because it's so deliciously flavorful. Government sanctioned underwater lycanthropes... it reeks of pulp fantasy.
    Its not nearly as pulpy as it first looks. Remember that unlike other generic settings, Lycanthropes in D&D tend towards certain alignments depending on the creature- not all are necessary evil or chaotic. Hence when I said a good-ish seed creature, I meant one that would NOT arbitrarily go berserk and murder half the city when the moon is full. Instead, they will dance in the flower fields under the stars... at least until the merfolk come along.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    In addition to looking for bling and candy to take from the weaker races, the Deep Seers are also combing the world for the one thing that the Great Mothers are pretty sure exists somewhere: the hidden army that the other races are putting together to take the world back from the clutches of the Sahuagin Empire. As far as anyone knows, it doesn't exist, but for some reason the Great Mothers keep insisting that the searching continue. Maybe they know something we don't?
    But how could they? The Illithid cabal has made sure no one knows of their secret plans.
    Trissociate: 3.5 Homebrew Base Class. Mix & match abilites & templates to make virtually any sort of character!
    Spoiler
    Show
    Theoretical Optimization Amusements
    Emerald Legion A Mind Flayer's guide to creating near-invincible super soldiers.
    Spellblade Tennis Throw out nigh infinite spells per round.
    Sleeping Raven Infinite Blood Frenzy nigh infinite melee damage exploit.

    Minor Accolades
    Quote Originally Posted by jmbrown View Post
    so deliciously flavorful
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaeron View Post
    Bravo Bravo
    Quote Originally Posted by Kansaschaser View Post
    I think you just saved my city.

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2009

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    Quote Originally Posted by hiryuu View Post

    I hear merfolk flesh, though, can make you immortal if you eat it...
    Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen reference FTW!

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Orc in the Playground
     
    theMycon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    Quote Originally Posted by the_archduke View Post
    Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen reference FTW!
    (I thought this was referring to some old Rumiko Takahashi Manga/Anime... Mermaid... Scar? Forest? Something like that. Of course, Mermaid Flesh is 90% likely to kill you, too.)
    If it's not obvious, insert a after my post.

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Rappy's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Louisiana
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    The dread lacedon template (from Advanced Bestiary) eliminates the whole "sea zombies that can't swim" problem.

    This also works the opposite way. Dread lacedons that are completely aquatic gain the ability to move on land. Nothing says "we're screwed" like a cavalry of merfolk necromancers atop a dread lacedon leviathan.

    Into the Blue also has a relatively large dose of oceanic undead, and Tome of Horrors has the brine zombie. Add those to the mixture and you have a fairly nasty seaborn army.
    My Let's Reads, Let's Plays, and other Let's Projects
    Spoiler
    Show
    Let's Read the Tome of Horrors; because sometimes, five Monster Manuals just isn't enough (Status: Complete)

    Let's Read the Tome of Horrors II; it's happening again... (Now in thread Mark II [Status: Abandoned])


    Dusk of Man, Dawn of Magic: A post-apocalyptic occult setting spanning the entire world

    LGBTitP

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2007

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    Quote Originally Posted by starwoof View Post
    Whats wrong with sea lions?
    It's a bad pun that's passed off as a monster.
    Last edited by FoE; 2009-12-16 at 12:54 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Rappy's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Louisiana
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    Quote Originally Posted by Face Of Evil View Post
    It's a bad pun that's passed off as a monster.
    Not quite...

    You see, sea lions are a heraldic mythological creature, along with sea wolves, sea dogs, sea horses, and the sea rabbit (seriously). This was based on the belief that every creature that walked upon the earth had a counterpart within the seas; hence why mermaids were so popular.

    That doesn't make it any less corny, but still.
    Last edited by Rappy; 2009-12-16 at 01:00 AM.
    My Let's Reads, Let's Plays, and other Let's Projects
    Spoiler
    Show
    Let's Read the Tome of Horrors; because sometimes, five Monster Manuals just isn't enough (Status: Complete)

    Let's Read the Tome of Horrors II; it's happening again... (Now in thread Mark II [Status: Abandoned])


    Dusk of Man, Dawn of Magic: A post-apocalyptic occult setting spanning the entire world

    LGBTitP

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2007

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rappy View Post
    You see, sea lions are a heraldic mythological creature, along with sea wolves, sea dogs, sea horses, and the sea rabbit (seriously). This was based on the belief that every creature that walked upon the earth had a counterpart within the seas; hence why mermaids were so popular.
    Yeah, but that doesn't discount the fact that WE KNOW BETTER.

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Sstoopidtallkid's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Texas...for now
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    The problem with underwater adventures is that the PCs are at a distinct disadvantage. There's the breathing and depth issues, you need to invest your limited skill points specifically for the adventure, you have a chance of losing your action on a poor skill roll, most attacks are weaker, movement is limited, and in general, PCs suck. To counter this, WotC made the monsters underwater more dangerous than those on land. I only recommend trying it with an optimized group.
    [/sarcasm]
    FAQ is not RAW!
    Avatar by the incredible CrimsonAngel.
    Saph:It's surprising how many problems can be solved by one druid spell combined with enough aggression.
    I play primarily 3.5 D&D. Most of my advice will be based off of this. If my advice doesn't apply, specify a version in your post.

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2009

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    that's a good point take a ghoul vrs a aquatic ghoul they have the same cr and nearly identical stats, but the large penalties for fighting underwater make what on land might be an easy fight vastly harder, and that's assuming they can function underwater. Added problems such as mid levels where you need your magic weapons vrs level appropriate threats but lack easy access to magic that can let you use them (assuming their not piercing weapons) effectively enough to fight those level appropriate threats.

    This becomes a lot less important at higher levels becuase you can often do with out to much trouble acquire magic to bypass these constraints but a low and mid levels it makes every fight for more difficult.

    If you are planning an underwater campaign i would let the players know during charecter creation
    Last edited by awa; 2009-12-16 at 02:00 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Sstoopidtallkid's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Texas...for now
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    Quote Originally Posted by awa View Post
    that's a good point take a ghoul vrs a aquatic ghoul they have the same cr and nearly identical stats, but the large penalties for fighting underwater make what on land might be an easy fight vastly harder, and that's assuming they can function underwater. Added problems such as mid levels where you need your magic weapons vrs level appropriate threats but lack easy access to magic that can let you use them (assuming their not piercing weapons) effectively enough to fight those level appropriate threats.

    This becomes a lot less important at higher levels becuase you can often do with out to much trouble acquire magic to bypass these constraints but a low and mid levels it makes every fight for more difficult.

    If you are planning an underwater campaign i would let the players know during charecter creation
    The ghouls are at least not a worse fight. Compare a Riding Dog to a Shark. The shark is better in almost every category, but the same CR.
    [/sarcasm]
    FAQ is not RAW!
    Avatar by the incredible CrimsonAngel.
    Saph:It's surprising how many problems can be solved by one druid spell combined with enough aggression.
    I play primarily 3.5 D&D. Most of my advice will be based off of this. If my advice doesn't apply, specify a version in your post.

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2009

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    sure i'm just pointing out that even on an otherwise completely level playing field the underwater fight will be vastly harder.

    I will point out that there are are a lot of creatures out of the water that are far to strong for their cr (or to weak but that's another matter) and some underwater creatures are pretty weak for their cr (but not many)
    Last edited by awa; 2009-12-16 at 02:37 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Shademan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    raiding wales!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post
    My

    Idea 1: (Not copied from Avatar despite what it might seem). Breed an army of sea creature lycanthropes. All you need is a good-ish sea animal strain to infect a bunch of voluntary peasants, with the promise that they, their children and so on and so forth, will have a secure future as the kingdom's defenders.
    WERE-SEALS! YAAAY!
    no dolphins tho'. those buggers are evil
    Need a setting for your game? a character concept? any gaming related ideas? I make far to many to eat up myself, and therefor I am willing to share them. Free ideas! Get yer fluff here! PM me.


    The friendly neighborhood gentleman perv is always ready to help!

    on M&B:
    Quote Originally Posted by Celesyne
    oh, and looting villages is REALLY good money, if a nearby lord doesn't stop by and give you a daily dose of rape.
    http://baetzler.de/humor/meat_beings.html

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    Just because Sahaugin "should" be that powerful, due to their intelligence and alliance with sharks, does not mean that they are.

    In terms of biodiversity, most of the sealife tends to be in the shallows.

    If sahuagin control the deep oceans, that doesn't mean they have nearly all the resources and the sea elves, etc are subsisting on what's left.

    Also- in Faerun at least, their control seems somewhat limited, with other races creating great empires and being able to cope with sahuagin raids.

    They might be more powerful in Eberron and Greyhawk though.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    The Sahaugin in Faerun are plenty powerful. So powerful in fact that they are a -serious- threat on a global scale. Well, at least affecting all the printed material at the time of 2nd ed.
    My Current Works


    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    Also I'm pretty sure you're GLaDoS now.

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    Serious threat, sure, but not to the point of marginalizing all the others.

    Grand History of The Realms recounts quite a bit of the long history of Seros (the confederacy of the Inner Sea) and its ups and downs.

    And it never comes across as "a petty ghetto permitted to exist by the sahaugin"
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine

  22. - Top - End - #52
    Banned
     
    Optimystik's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    Quote Originally Posted by Face Of Evil View Post
    How the hell do you swing a sword underwater? Or fire a bow? Or hell, swing your fists? What about spells?
    Stormwrack, IIRC, has feats that allow for better casting underwater, including one that lets you cast fire spells underwater without penalty (Steam Magic?) and one that lets you cast bardic spells underwater, and control sailing winds with bardsong.

    There's also a nice one that I do remember - Sanctify Water, that allows clerics to turn all the water in a radius around themselves into holy water. Great if aquatic undead are floundering their way over to you.

    Without that supplement, I think Silent Spell is your best option, or psionics.
    Last edited by Optimystik; 2009-12-16 at 07:29 AM.

  23. - Top - End - #53
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2009

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Just because Sahaugin "should" be that powerful, due to their intelligence and alliance with sharks, does not mean that they are.

    In terms of biodiversity, most of the sealife tends to be in the shallows.

    If sahuagin control the deep oceans, that doesn't mean they have nearly all the resources and the sea elves, etc are subsisting on what's left.

    Also- in Faerun at least, their control seems somewhat limited, with other races creating great empires and being able to cope with sahuagin raids.

    They might be more powerful in Eberron and Greyhawk though.
    I don't know how the canon has changed but when Gygax wrote up the sahuagin he put some obvious restrictions on them. They can't survive more than 4 hours on land, they can't survive in fresh water, and their mortality rate is ridiculously high because they either eat their young or pit them against each other. He based the sahuagins on the Incans in terms of design and civilization and although they're formidable they're too thinly spread, disorganized, and petty to pose a serious threat as a world power.

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Banned
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Flawse Fell, Geordieland

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    Quote Originally Posted by jmbrown View Post
    Sahuagin aren't as stable as merfolk. To me they're basically goblins of the sea. Faster, stronger, and far deadlier goblins but like goblinoids they're savage, disorganized, and kill each other as much as they kill their enemies.

    Sahuagin might make good servants to an overlord but they're absolutely useless as a world power.
    Check out the alignment, Int score and social organisation of the Sahuagin. That's right. They're evil, super-intelligent sea nazis, and they look at the coasts as their rightful hunting ground.

    From Races of War:
    Borderlands of the Sahuagin: Sore Winners

    The first thing to understand about the Sahuagin is that they have already won. Completely. The surface of the world is about 3/4 ocean and they own almost all of it. From the standpoint of the Sahuagin, the only places on the planet that have non-Sahuagin races in them are the stale crusts that they already had the presence of mind to cut off their sandwich. All of the non-Sahuagin races are ghettoized. Even the other aquatic races have been marginalized to the point where they only get the brackish water (Locathah), the rocky shallows (merfolk), the underground darks (Kuo-Toans), or the muddy salt marshes (Lizardfolk). The real real estate the ocean and coastline are pretty much the private playground of the Sahuagin.

    Individually, Sahuagin will kick your ass, and collectively they will kick the ass of any nation you happen to support. The combined populations of all other sapient races on any planet are less than the population of Sahuagin on that planet. The Sahuagin are also much smarter and better organized than you are so their cities are actually more productive than yours per person in addition to the fact that they have more cities than all the other races and their cities are more populous.

    The Sahuagin mutate constantly, but are not inclined to Chaos. They just all have different appearances and capabilities. But every one of them is gifted with super intelligence and thick natural armor. The Sahuagin deep seers are some of the most gifted wizards on the planet and honestly have nothing better to do than just scry on crap and tell the armies where there's some cool stuff to go loot. From time to time the Sahuagin will come onto land to beat the living crap out of people and take control of important or valuable items. Then they take the spoils of war and drag it back under water, laughing the whole time.

    Against this backdrop of crushing inferiority, how do the other races maintain? Most of them are fighting for stakes so small that they haven't even noticed that the vast majority of the planet is owned and operated by brutally efficient fish men. But one race that certainly has noticed the power discrepancy is the race of elves most likely to be forgotten: the Sea Elves. They actually live in many of the same areas and have a war going with them.

    Life is hard for a Sea Elf, because every one of them is born into a post-apocalyptic world where mutants run amok and hunt them for sport. But it's actually even worse than that because in addition to simply being physically and intellectually inferior to the Sahuagin like everyone else is they are actually stupid and useless even contrasted with the surface races. An average Sea Elf is as much the intellectual inferior to a Sahuagin as a Griffin is to a normal human. The Sahuagin consider the Sea Elves to be little more than animals, and they aren't wrong.

    The Sea Elves keep surviving at all because they see farther than Sahuagin in low-light conditions (and are thus often able to swim away from potential encounters with Sahuagin during the morning and twilight hours that Sea Elves leave their hidden nests), and also because every so often a Sahuagin gets born who looks exactly like a Sea Elf. These Sahuagin mutants, called Malenti, are a little bit worse than a normal Sahuagin in that they lack the rending claws. But they're still stronger and smarter than any Sea Elf that ever swam the 7 seas. So when these Malenti realize that they get a crap deal from Sahuagin society, they often as not run off to join the Sea Elves, where they almost immediately rise to positions of leadership. They also gain crap loads of experience very quickly because the odds are so stacked against them. In short, the reason that the Sea Elves still exist is that they actually are a splinter faction of Sahuagin that uses real sea elves as beasts of burden instead of simply hunting them like the more normal Sahuagin groups do.

    And yet, despite the fact that the Sahuagin have won at everything, they still continue to fight the other races and take their children and stuff. Partly this is to feed the insatiable demands of their Baatezu masters, and partly this is because on some deep level the Sahuagin are convinced that it actually couldn't possibly be that easy. In addition to looking for bling and candy to take from the weaker races, the Deep Seers are also combing the world for the one thing that the Great Mothers are pretty sure exists somewhere: the hidden army that the other races are putting together to take the world back from the clutches of the Sahuagin Empire. As far as anyone knows, it doesn't exist, but for some reason the Great Mothers keep insisting that the searching continue. Maybe they know something we don't?

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    Still homebrew.

    Sure, in his world, Sahaugin have taken advantage of their high Int and LE alignment to take over most of the ocean.

    But have they done it in Eberron, Greyhawk, or Faerun?

    Is there anything in Dragon, Dungeon, etc to suggest the Sahaugin have this kind of overwhelming superiority?

    You could say the same about the Mind Flayers and the Underdark- super-intelligent and LE, but they haven't taken over.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2009

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    Quote Originally Posted by bosssmiley View Post
    Check out the alignment, Int score and social organisation of the Sahuagin. That's right. They're evil, super-intelligent sea nazis, and they look at the coasts as their rightful hunting ground.

    From Races of War:
    And what happened to the Werhmacht in WWII? They spread too thin and ended up flanked on three different fronts (European, Russian, and African). Military history has proven time and again that a single, overwhelming army simply can't dominate the entirety of the world because people feel threatened and ban together for mutual protection.

    The sahuagin have zero allies even among themselves. Do they rule the seas or are they prisoners of the sea?

    Edit: Prisoners of the Sea... I'll have to remember that name for a future adventure.
    Last edited by jmbrown; 2009-12-16 at 11:36 AM.

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Ormagoden's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    In Constant Disapproval
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    Magic items might not be as prohibitive as you think.

    Think about the economy in a water campaign.

    If water and water adventures are incredibly common, perhaps even daily routine. Magic items and equipment, and mundane items (like the OP's seaweed) would be quite common as well. Therefor the cost to create them might be drastically reduced. Early on the players can rely on mundane items to get them by and then purchase the good stuff when they can afford it.

    Alternatively, why not allow the players to take a +0 LA template that allows them to breath underwater and tolerate shallow depths. You could even make a feat chain for it (that has to start at 1st level).

    Think Kevin Costner from waterworld (or don't)

    [/2cp]

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2007

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Sure, in his world, Sahaugin have taken advantage of their high Int and LE alignment to take over most of the ocean.

    But have they done it in Eberron, Greyhawk, or Faerun?
    Not in Eberron. The oceans don't really get much play in Eberron, since the setting lends itself to land-based intrigue and exploration.
    Last edited by FoE; 2009-12-16 at 12:48 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2009

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    This is what I got out of 2 pages so far:

    -Natural occuring sea plant that [insert magical means here] filters water through lungs and eliminates the effect of decompression up to a certain depth.

    -Weredolphins

    -A LA +0 template for people who go through a magical transformation to become amphibious.

    -A LA +0 aquan race close to humans (Sea Half-elves?)

    -Zombie sharks and skeleton whales, oh my.

    -Tritons are like the Persian empire at the height of its glory. Advanced civilization, enlightened, believe in the equal rights of all creatures but they're being attacked on all fronts and the rest of the world is unconcerned with what's happening underwater.

    -Slave trade? Merfolk want slaves, sahuagin want live food and sacrifices...

    -Water based human mercantile colonies. Massive coral reefs provide rare sea life for study, building material, and natural resources humans are trying to support. Pearl trade? Underwater based drugs (sea sponge snorting)?

    -Merfolk are like the Mongol hordes. Tactical geniuses, masters of war, and ever expanding. They're at constant war with the equally expansive sahuagin, defend their homes from human expansion (a result of mercantilism), subjigate the sea-elves who make easy slaves, and have bitter but strained relationships with the tritons.

    -Sahuagin are basically the same. Despite their numbers and raw power, they're too disorganized, shortsighted, and fight each other as much as their enemies to pose a world threat. Some sahuagin are more honorable (but still evil) and sell their services to the highest bidders much like bugbears.

    -Underwater liches, F yeah.

    -Special feats for combat underwater and more variety in underwater items (primitive depth charges? What kind of artillery would merfolk use?)

    -Underwater class variants (sea bard, aquaman druid, casting spells underwater).

    -Setting? Age of Sale/Enlightened period where underwater creatures are expanding as fast as humans on the surface or antediluvian earth where men thought the world was flat and feared the ocean (here be serpents)?

    -Giant crabs. All things are better with giant crabs.

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2009

    Default Re: Murder! Merfolk Murder!

    storm wrack has several aquatic races and if i recall correctly one was just underwater humans

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •