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    Default FeanMerc's Epic Spellcasting System

    This system was developed by J.Karpan “Fëanáro” and A. Silva-Miramon “Mercucio” over at Dicefreaks. I have added a stipulation to their original rules so it could be more balanced. Hopefully this will work well.

    DESIGNING EPIC SPELLS USING THE IMPROVED SPELL CAPACITY SYSTEM

    First and Foremost
    the Improved Spell Capacity epic spellcasting system does not require a caster to possess the Epic Spellcasting feat. Any character capable of casting 10th level or higher spells using Improved Spell Capacity can develop epic spells using this system.
    0. Design Concept
    Sketch out a rough idea of what you want your spell to do.

    1. Choose a Base Spell Seed
    Now that you know what kind of spell effect you want, choose an existing spell(s) as the base seed. A spell seed’s base DC is equal to the minimum caster level for the developer’s class to cast that spell + 13.
    Adding Seed DCs: When two or more spell seeds are combined in an epic spell, their base Spellcraft DCs are added together. Both contribute toward the spell’s final Spellcraft DC.
    Determining School: When combining two or more spell seeds to develop an epic spell, the school of the finished spell is decided by the caster from among the seeds that make up the epic spell.
    Combining Descriptors: When two or more spell seeds are combined in an epic spell, all the descriptors from each seed apply to the finished spell.
    Combining Components and Casting Times: Almost every epic spell has verbal and somatic components and a 1 action time, regardless of the number of epic seeds combined.
    Combining Range, Targets, Area, and Effect: One spell seed might have a range of Long, another seed might have a range of touch feet, and a third seed might not have a range at all. Likewise, some spell seeds have targets, while others have an effect or an area. To determine which spell seed takes precedence in the finished epic spell, the caster must decide which spell seed is the base seed. The seed most important to the spell’s overall purpose is the base seed, and it determines the casting time, range, target, and so on. The other spell seeds apply only their specific effects to the finished spell. It is occasionally difficult to determine a base seed by examining the spell’s effects. If no one seed is most important, simply pick one seed for the purposes of making this determination.
    Combining Durations: When using two or more seeds to develop an epic spell, the seed with the shortest duration determines the duration of the finished epic spell. If any spell seed of an epic spell is dismissible by the caster, the epic spell is dismissible.
    Saving Throws: Even if more than one seed has an associated saving throw, the final spell will have only a single saving throw. If two or more seeds have the same kind of saving throw (Fortitude, Reflex, or Will), then obviously that will be used for the spell’s saving throw. If the spell seeds have different kinds of saving throws, simply choose the saving throw that seems most appropriate for the final spell.
    Spell Resistance: When combining two or more spell seeds to develop an epic spell, if even one seed is subject to spell resistance, the finished epic spell is subject to it as well.
    Combining Spells Seeds and Epic Seeds: Although this new epic spellcasting system now uses spells to form the basis of its spell seeds it does not completely ignore the existing epic spellcasting seeds. Many of the pre-existing epic seeds grant effects not found in published spells and in such cases it is permissible to use the epic seed as one of your spell seeds. These epic seeds use the revised general Spellcraft DC modifiers that follow rather the pre-existing ones, but the DC modifiers inherent to each seed, remain unchanged.

    2. Factors
    Factors are not part of epic seeds, but they are the tools used to modify specific parameters of any given seed. Applying factors to the seeds of an epic spell can increase or decrease the final Spellcraft DC, increase the duration, change the area of a spell, and affect many other aspects of the spell.
    There are three kinds of factors:
    1. Those that can affect a number of spell seeds.
    2. Those that can only be used with specific spell seeds.
    3. Those that reduce the Spellcraft DC rather than increasing it. These are referred to as mitigating factors. To calculate the final Spellcraft DC of an epic spell correctly, it’s important to determine the mitigating factors last, after all the factors that increase the DC have been accounted for.
    Development Is an Art: Many times developing a completely new epic spell requires some guesswork and rule stretching. As with making and pricing magic items, a sort of balancing act is required. Often the description of a spell will need to be stretched for a particular spell. If necessary, assess an “ad hoc” Spellcraft DC adjustment for any effect that cannot be extrapolated from the seeds and factors presented here—the example spells use ad hoc factors frequently. In all cases, the GM determines the actual Spellcraft DC of the new spell

    Table: Epic Spell Factors
    {table=head]Casting Time|Spellcraft DC Modifier
    Reduce casting time by 1 minute (min. 1 minute)|+2
    Reduce casting time by 1 round (minimum 1 round)|+2
    Change full round to standard action casting time|+2
    Swift action (limit one swift action/round)|+28
    Contingent on specific trigger (as contingency) 1|+26[/table]
    {table=head]Components|Spellcraft DC Modifier
    No verbal component|+5
    No somatic component|+5[/table]
    {table=head]Duration2|Spellcraft DC Modifier
    Increase duration by 100%|+2
    Permanent duration (apply this factor after all other epic spell factors but before mitigating factors)|x5
    Dismissible by caster (if not already)|+2[/table]
    {table=head]Range|Spellcraft DC Modifier
    Range Increase range by 100% (fixed range spells)|+2
    Increase range 1 step (close to medium, ect.)|+4[/table]
    {table=head]Target3|Spellcraft DC Modifier
    Add extra target within range|+4
    Change from single target to 1 target/level (max. 20)|+40
    Change from personal to melee touch|+4
    Change from personal to ranged touch (close)|+10
    Change from melee touch to ranged touch (close)|+4
    Change from ranged touch to target|+4
    Change from target to ranged touch|+4
    Change from target to Area (pick Area option below)|+10[/table]
    {table=head]Area4|Spellcraft DC Modifier
    Change Area to bolt (5 ft. wide at medium range, or 10 ft. wide with 1/2 medium range)|+2
    Change Area to cylinder (10-ft. radius, 30 ft. high)|+2
    Change Area to 40-ft. cone|+2
    Change Area to four 10-ft. cubes|+2
    Change Area to 20-ft. radius|+2
    Increase Area by 100%|+4[/table]
    {table=head]Damage|Spellcraft DC Modifier
    Add one die of damage to a fixed damage spell|+2 per die
    Increase maximum damage dice by caster level|+1 per die
    Increase damage die by one step (d12 maximum)|+10[/table]
    {table=head]Other|Spellcraft DC Modifier
    Gain +1 bonus on caster level checks to overcome target’s spell resistance|+4
    Gain +1 caster level to resist dispel effects|+4[/table]
    Unless stated otherwise, the same factor can be applied more than once.
    1 Each contingent spell in use counts as a slot used from the caster’s daily Improved Spell Capacity spell slots.
    2 Seeds that already have an instantaneous or permanent duration cannot be increased.
    3 When changing a targeted or Area seed to a touch or ranged attack, the seed no longer requires a save if it deals damage, instead requiring a successful attack roll. Seeds with a nondamaging effect still allow the target a save. Area spells changed to touch or ranged attacks now affect only the creature successfully attacked.
    4 When changing a touch or ranged attack seed to a targeted seed, the seed no longer requires an attack roll if it deals damage, instead requiring a saving throw from the target. On a failed saving throw, the target takes half damage. Area seeds changed to targeted seeds now only affect the target. The GM determines the most appropriate kind of saving throw for the epic spell.

    Table: Epic Spell Mitigating Factors
    {table=head]Other|Spell DC Modifier
    Backlash 1d6 points of damage (max d6 = final spell level x2)1|–2
    Burn 100 XP during casting (max 20,000 XP)|–1
    Additional participants (ritual)|Special[/table]
    {table=head]Duration|Spell DC Modifier
    Decrease duration from 1 hour/level to 10 min./level|–10
    Decrease duration from 10 min./level to 1 minute/level|–10
    Decrease duration from 1 minute/level to 1 round/level|–10[/table]
    {table=head]Area|Spell DC Modifier
    Halve area (fixed area)|–4
    Decrease Area to single target|–10[/table]
    {table=head]Targets|Spell DC Modifier
    Change target from ranged touch to melee touch|–4
    Change target from melee touch to personal|–10
    Change target from target to ranged touch|–4
    Change target from target to melee touch|–10
    Change target from target to personal|–14[/table]
    {table=head]Range|Spell DC Modifier
    Halve fixed range|–4
    Decrease range one step (long to medium, ect)|–4[/table]
    {table=head]Casting Time|Spell DC Modifier
    Increase casting time from standard to full-round action|–1
    Increase casting time by 1 round (max 1 minute)2|–1
    Increase casting time by 1 minute (max 10 minutes)2|–2
    Increase casting time by 1 day (max 100 days)2|–2[/table]
    {table=head]Damage|Spell DC Modifier
    Decrease damage die by one step (d4 minimum)|–5[/table]
    Note: Mitigating factors are always applied last all other spell factors (see above) are accounted for. Mitigating factors cannot be used to reduce the Spell DC bellow half of what it was before the mitigating factors.
    1 A caster cannot avoid or make himself immune to backlash damage. Backlash damage is always considered lethal for creatures with regeneration and only heals naturally, magic and psionics are incapable of healing backlash. Creatures with fast healing heal backlash damage at value listed for their fast healing score every hour, not every round. Spells with durations longer than instantaneous, the backlash damage is only applied once. You cannot use backlash to mitigate the cost any spell with a permanent duration. If backlash damage kills a caster, no spell or method exists that will return the caster’s to life without costing the caster a level—not even wish, true resurrection, miracle, or epic spells that return life to the deceased. Spells that normally penalize the recipient one level when they return him or her to life penalize a caster killed by backlash two levels.
    2 When increasing the casting time of a spell in order to reduce the Spellcraft DC, a caster must first “use up” the maximum of 1 minute, then 10 minutes (for a total DC modifier of –28). After that, a caster can continue to add days to the casting time, with a further modifier of –2 per day, up to the maximum of 100 days.

    Additional Participants: Epic spells can be developed that specifically require additional participants. These spells are called rituals. An epic spell developed as a ritual requires a specific number of additional participants, who each must use up one spell slot of a specified level for the day. During an epic spell’s development, the spell’s creator determines the number of additional participants and the level of the spell slots to be contributed. If the exact number of spellcasters does not partake in the casting, or if the casters do not each contribute the proper spell slot, the epic spell automatically fails. To participate, each participant readies an action to contribute his or her raw spell energy when the primary caster begins the epic spell. Additional participants in a ritual spell reduce the Spellcraft DC, as shown on Table: Additional Participants in Rituals. Each additional participant may only contribute one spell slot. It doesn’t matter whether the additional participants are arcane or divine spellcasters; only the level of the spell slot contributed matters. A contributed spell slot is treated as if normally cast. A wizard may contribute either a prepared, uncast spell slot, or an open, unprepared slot. The Spellcraft DC adjustments for each additional participant stack.
    Special: A ritual epic spell that takes longer than 1 action to cast requires all extra participants to stand as if casting for the same amount of time. If an extra participant is attacked while contributing a spell slot, the participant must make a Concentration check as if casting a spell of the same level as the slot contributed. If the attack disrupts the participant in the ritual, the epic spell is not necessarily ruined. However, the Spellcraft DC reduction that would have been provided by that additional participant cannot be applied to the final Spellcraft DC of the epic spell. Thus the ritual epic spell will be harder for the primary spellcaster to cast.

    Table: Additional Participants in Rituals
    {table=head]Spell Slot Level Contributed|Spellcraft DC Reduction
    1st|–1
    2nd|–3
    3rd|–5
    4th|–7
    5th|–9
    6th|–11
    7th|–13
    8th|–15
    9th|–17[/table]
    For each additional spell level above 9th the Spellcraft DC reduction increases by 2 points.
    Determine Costs: Sum all factors and mitigating factors together to determine the final Spellcraft DC. The spell’s research cost in gold pieces is equal to the final Spellcraft DC times 7000, and the spells experience point cost is equal to 1/25th the research cost.
    Determine Level: Divide the final spell DC by 10, round to the nearest whole number, and add +7. This is the level of the Improved Spell Capacity spell slot needed to cast the spell. This also sets the base save DC of the spell.
    Approval: This is the final step, and it’s critically important. The epic spell development work and reasoning must be shown to the GM and receive his or her approval. If the GM doesn’t approve, then the epic spell cannot be developed. However, the GM should explain why the epic spell wasn’t approved and possibly offer suggestions on how to create an epic spell that will be acceptable.
    Last edited by Dante & Vergil; 2009-12-30 at 08:01 PM.

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    Default Re: FeanMerc's Epic Spellcasting System

    I have seen this system before. It is just as bad as regular epic spellcasting. Actually, it is worse, because you not only are unable to preform a decent spell using it, just like regular spellcasting, but it encourages mitigation to zero cost even more because there is a huge feat tax to actually make a truly "epic" spell.

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    Default Re: FeanMerc's Epic Spellcasting System

    SPECIFIC SEEDS AND EFFECTS

    CALLING
    Under the previous epic spellcasting rules set there was no provision or seed for calling creatures. With the introduction the new spell seed rules, calling effects now use greater planar binding/ally as their base spell seed. When summoning creatures with greater than 18 HD the DC of the spell increases by +10 for each additional 3 Hit dice over eighteen.

    SUMMONING
    Epic level summon monster spells function differently that most spell seeds. Below is a general guideline as the maximum CR and combat ability a summoned monster should possess based on spell level.
    Seed: Summon
    Conjuration (Summoning)
    Spellcraft DC: variable, see table below
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 action
    Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
    Effect: One summoned creature
    Duration: 1 round per caster level (D)
    Saving Throw: Will negates (see text)
    Spell Resistance: Yes (see text)
    This seed can summon an outsider. It appears where the caster designates and acts immediately, on his or her turn. If the caster can communicate with the outsider, he or she can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. When a caster develops a spell with the summon seed that summons an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, the completed spell is also of that type.
    If the caster increases the Spellcraft DC by +10, he or she can summon a creature from another monster type or subtype. The summoned creature is assumed to have been plucked from some other plane (or somewhere on the same plane). The summoned creature attacks the caster’s opponents to the best of its ability; or, if the caster can communicate with it, it will perform other actions. However, the summoning ends if the creature is asked to perform a task inimical to its nature.
    Finally, by increasing the Spellcraft DC by +60, the caster can summon a unique individual he or she specifies from anywhere in the multiverse. The caster must know the target’s name and some facts about its life, defeat any magical protection against discovery or other protection possessed by the target, and overcome the target’s spell resistance, and it must fail a Will saving throw. The target is under no special compulsion to serve the caster.

    Suggested Summon Monster Seed
    {table=head]Base DC|CR|AC|Highest attack bonus|Max spell castable|Max spell-like ability
    30|15-16|32|+27|8th|9th
    40|17-18|35|+30|9th|10th
    50|19-20|38|+33|10th|10th
    60|21-22|41|+36|10th|11th
    70|23-24|44|+40|11th|11th
    80|25-26|47|+43|11th|12th
    90|27-28|50|+46|12th|12th
    100|29-30|53|+49|12th|13th
    110|31-32|56|+52|13th|13th
    120|33-34|59|+55|13th|14th
    130|35-36|62|+58|14th|14th[/table]

    IMPROVING ENHANCEMENT BONUSES
    If you wish to improve the enhancement bonus granted by an existing spell each +1 increase to the bonus granted by the spell to one of the scores listed below increases the Spellcraft DC of the final spell by +2.
    —Any one ability score.
    —Any one kind of saving throw, for all saves the Spellcraft DC is +4. Use this entry for all spells that grant resistance bonuses.
    —Natural armor.

    OTHER BONUS TYPES
    If a spell grants a bonus to one of the above scores other than enhancement or resistance (i.e. luck, sacred, profance, ect) the DC increase is +6 per +1 increase. If you wish to change the bonus type granted by a spell from enhancement to a bonus of a different type the Spellcraft DC increases by +10.
    A spell that grants energy resistance for one energy type or temporary hit point can increase the resistance or hit points granted by +1 for each additional 2 points of Spellcraft DC.
    Spell Resistance: Each additional point of fixed spell resistance increases the Spellcraft DC by +4, each additional point of spell resistance per caster level increas (each –1 to spell resistance reduces the Spellcraft DC by –2).
    The fortify seed can also grant damage reduction 1/magic. For each additional point of damage reduction, increase the Spellcraft DC by +2. To increase the damage reduction value to epic, increase the Spellcraft DC by +15.
    e.x. Charrel Sinstral is researching an epic spell called might of the pitborn. He wants the spell to grant +8 to Strength and +4 to Charisma and Constitution, however he wants these bonuses to be profane bonuses rather enhancement. The base seed are bull’s strength. This gives us a base DC 26 (16 + 10) to transform the bonus into an profane bonus, + 72 DC (12 additional points of profane bonuses to ability score) = DC 98 before mitigation.
    Epic Spells and Metamagic Ad Hocs
    Astute readers will undoubtly by now realized that metamagic spell level adjustments translate smoothing in ad hoc epic modifiers, with one spell level adjustment translates into +7 DC. The benefits of building metamagic effects inherently to a spell such as the increased save DC is offset by the increased research and development costs and/or mitigating factors.
    Like any good rule, there are exceptions given to the metamagic guidelines given above. Any metamagic feat that increases damage dice, such as Empower Spell, and epic feats, such as Intensify Spell, break the damage advancement of spells when used as epic ad hoc modifiers, and thus are not allowed to applied to epic spells as ad hoc modifiers.

    EPIC SPELLCASTING & SPELL POINTS

    SPONTANEOUS SPELLCASTERS & IMPROVED SPELL CAPACITY
    Each time a spontaneous spellcaster takes Improved Spell Capacity he gains a number of spell points equal to the number of spell points required to cast his highest spell level +2 and the ability to cast (metamagicked) spells of one level higher. Each additional time a spontaneous caster takes this feat the number of bonus spell points granted increases by +2 and the highest level (metamagicked) spell effect he can create increases by 1.
    A spontaneous spellcaster who gains the ability to cast 10th level or higher metamagicked effects also gains the ability to learn and cast epic spells of the equivalent level or lower. A spontaneous spellcaster is limited to a total number of epic spells known equal to his ranks in Knowledge (arcana)/3, round up. A spontaneous spellcaster cannot know more higher level epic spells than he does lower level ones.

    VANCIAN CASTERS & IMPROVED SPELL CAPACITY
    The first time a spellcaster who prepares their spells takes Improved Spell Capacity he gains a number of spell points equal to the highest spell level he can cast +2 and two spell slots of the next highest level. Each additional time this feat is take the caster gains two spell slots of the next highest level and the number of bonus spell points granted by this feat increases by +2.
    When a spellcaster who prepares his spells each day gains access to 10th level and higher spell slots he also gains ability to learn and cast epic spells of the equivalent level or lower. A spellcaster who prepares their spells each may use these slots to prepare metamagicked versions of spells or epic spells as he prefers.

    SPELL POINTS & EPIC SPELLS
    The sheer effort involved in casting an epic spell requires the caster expend twice the normal number of spell points he normally would for a spell of that level. Thus casting a casting an 10th level epic spell would require 38 spell points rather than 19.
    Last edited by Dante & Vergil; 2009-12-30 at 07:39 PM.

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    Default Re: FeanMerc's Epic Spellcasting System

    I'm done with it and only wanted to put up just the rules to it without the spells themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    I have seen this system before. It is just as bad as regular epic spellcasting. Actually, it is worse, because you not only are unable to preform a decent spell using it, just like regular spellcasting, but it encourages mitigation to zero cost even more because there is a huge feat tax to actually make a truly "epic" spell.
    I added a little something after the Mitigating Table in blue to deal with that problem. I have heard of this originally being used by them, but I haven't been able to find it in the document itself so I added it. I think it works out all right, but I can't say that for you and others.
    Last edited by Dante & Vergil; 2009-12-30 at 08:05 PM.

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    Default Re: FeanMerc's Epic Spellcasting System

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante & Vergil View Post
    I'm done with it and only wanted to put up just the rules to it without the spells themselves.



    I added a little something after the Mitigating Table in blue to deal with that problem. I have heard of this originally being used by them, but I haven't been able to find it in the document itself so I added it. I think it works out all right, but I can't say that for you and others.
    By saying that you cannot be used to mitigate below half, the system is, rather than being either useless or broken, like real epic spellcasting, simply useless with a feat tax required to be useless.

    Mechanically, this is terrible, as any attempt to only slightly modify epic spellcasting will be.

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    Default Re: FeanMerc's Epic Spellcasting System

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    By saying that you cannot be used to mitigate below half, the system is, rather than being either useless or broken, like real epic spellcasting, simply useless with a feat tax required to be useless.

    Mechanically, this is terrible, as any attempt to only slightly modify epic spellcasting will be.
    Out of curiosity, Mil, how would you do Epic spellcasting? It's undeniably something that's got to be taken care of. What are some of your rough ideas on it?
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    Default Re: FeanMerc's Epic Spellcasting System

    Quote Originally Posted by The Tygre View Post
    Out of curiosity, Mil, how would you do Epic spellcasting? It's undeniably something that's got to be taken care of. What are some of your rough ideas on it?
    Eliminate it entirely and never speak of it?

    There's no sense to the system. Mage's already stop time and have a spell that literally alters reality at their control. Anything more powerful is just stupid, and everything in the epic rules is as well. There's no point to even going past 20 with anything, especially using the published epic rules.

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    Default Re: FeanMerc's Epic Spellcasting System

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    Eliminate it entirely and never speak of it?

    There's no sense to the system. Mage's already stop time and have a spell that literally alters reality at their control. Anything more powerful is just stupid, and everything in the epic rules is as well. There's no point to even going past 20 with anything, especially using the published epic rules.
    That's fine, a lot of people feel this way. Though, some of us, which is a pretty small group to be sure, like to trudge through and play Epic and it's Spellcasting anyway. This is for those who like to play those sorts of games.

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    Default Re: FeanMerc's Epic Spellcasting System

    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2009-12-31 at 05:14 PM.

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    Default Re: FeanMerc's Epic Spellcasting System

    {scrubbed}
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2009-12-31 at 05:16 PM.

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    Default Re: FeanMerc's Epic Spellcasting System

    Quote Originally Posted by Saurus33 View Post
    {Scrubbed}
    This is a homebrew forum. If you post a system for D&D, it is reasonable to expect criticism. The proposed system just does not work, and I cannot see how playing in a broken system will lead to anybody's enjoyment.

    Epic rules themselves are bad, but somewhat playable, excluding epic spellcasting.
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2009-12-31 at 05:17 PM.

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    Default Re: FeanMerc's Epic Spellcasting System

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    This is a homebrew forum. If you post a system for D&D, it is reasonable to expect criticism. The proposed system just does not work, and I cannot see how playing in a broken system will lead to anybody's enjoyment.

    Epic rules themselves are bad, but somewhat playable, excluding epic spellcasting.
    Yes, we heard you the first time. You don't like epic levels, & you don't like epic spellcasting. Okay, that's fine. But some of us do, okay? That's fine, too. Please don't be so dismissive.

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    Default Re: FeanMerc's Epic Spellcasting System

    Quote Originally Posted by Saurus33 View Post
    {Scrubbed}
    Hear hear. No one's forcing you to read this, criticize it, support it, or comment on it. If you have nothing to say, say nothing. We'll trudge through this system at our leisure, play with our broken spells and monsters, and kick reason to the curb. You?

    Don't have to. Now, good sir, kindly leave well enough alone.
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2010-01-01 at 10:09 AM.
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    Default Re: FeanMerc's Epic Spellcasting System

    I think the system looks okay, but I would like a system that removed the need to use the DC and only use spell slots (although that would be even more broken) or to see spellcraft checks being used for all spells. But the system does mean that you cannot make an uber spell and then use migrating factors so you can cast it easily, but that it takes a few feats to destroy a metropolis with a wave of the hand.
    You do not have to call me by the full name, abreviate as you like.


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    Default Re: FeanMerc's Epic Spellcasting System

    Hmm, the problem with the spell slots for me is that seems cumbersome. There'd need to be a lot more spells for these advanced levels, and the ones in between. Which actually sounds like a delicious homebrew opportunity. I kind of like the idea that every spell requires a DC. It sounds a lot less restrictive, and would answer that age old question of how to shoot Vancian magic in the bud.
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    According to this test, I am a LN Half-Orc Cleric, Lvl.2.
    "And he said, 'Dance before us, atrocious nothing.'"
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    Default Re: FeanMerc's Epic Spellcasting System

    I can't contribute much to this exact system, but I can explain why I don't like it, and why epic spellcasting as a whole is an issue.

    Wanting massive effects is perfectly reasonable, but the system for creating your own spells should be a lot more powerful, before it can be in any way worthwhile - the single biggest issue with epic spellcasting is actually that it's only applicable to epic levels.

    I think the best fix is to go for the real issue, which is that the game as a whole could really use a much stronger set of guidelines for designing spells of any level.

    As a whole, rules for customising spells are very useful, and very worthwhile. A reasonable player/troupe should understand that good systems can still have 'undocumented features', especially in customisation guidelines, which can only cover so much before they stop being useful.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2009-12-31 at 08:43 PM.
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    Default Re: FeanMerc's Epic Spellcasting System

    That's what I was thinking. That there need to be more guidelines for custom, DC based spells. Of course Epic spells are a macrocosm of the problem with the system. While well-intentioned, flexible, and leaving plenty of room for whatever the player wants, it does lend itself to much abuse and munchkining. A double-edged sword, most unfortunately. Still, if I had to choose between one broken system or another, I'd pick the one that's easier to learn and have fun with.
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    According to this test, I am a LN Half-Orc Cleric, Lvl.2.
    "And he said, 'Dance before us, atrocious nothing.'"
    "And in the layer of the Deep Ones, we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever." - H.P. Lovecraft

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    Default Re: FeanMerc's Epic Spellcasting System

    I like this system because, when compared to the original rules, you get increasing spells slots and Epic spells were tied to spell slots. Now just because I say that, doesn't mean I don't think there are problems with it.
    My main beef has to deal with that Spellcasters don't get increasing spell levels without Improved Spell Capacity, which drove me crazy when I first read the Epic rules.
    What I suggest to fix this system is to keep giving increasing spell levels at the normal rate for when class X gets spells and if you don't like giving out 10th level spells out during the first 20 levels, then add the stipulation that players can't access spell of 10th level and above before Epic. This should not have to use a feat, but if you must make it only one.

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    Default Re: FeanMerc's Epic Spellcasting System

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    I cannot see how playing in a broken system will lead to anybody's enjoyment.

    Epic rules themselves are bad, but somewhat playable, excluding epic spellcasting.
    this is faulty logic; the entire game is playable. the entire game is also a broken system as is routinely displayed in the co boards.

    to arbitrarily draw the line at epic is inane.

    some of us like the game despite its discrepancies, and can even make epic spellcasting work.

    tygre said it well:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Tygre View Post
    We'll trudge through this system at our leisure, play with our broken spells and monsters, and kick reason to the curb. You?

    Don't have to. Now, good sir, kindly leave well enough alone.
    epic isn't for everyone, just like d&d isn't for everyone. hell, the e6 crowd doesn't even like 10th level, so it all boils down to individual style and group dynamics, and there is no one right answer.

    it is perfectly reasonable to play a well moderated, socially responsible, fun game even when one of the players is a monk, and the other is a wizard throwing around hellballs and epic ruin spells.
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    Default Re: FeanMerc's Epic Spellcasting System

    Ahha! Thanks for bringing this system to light again, it being the system I use for my epic games. I salute you, my good man.
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    Default Re: FeanMerc's Epic Spellcasting System

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante & Vergil View Post
    That's fine, a lot of people feel this way. Though, some of us, which is a pretty small group to be sure, like to trudge through and play Epic and it's Spellcasting anyway. This is for those who like to play those sorts of games.
    Try the epic spellcasting replacement linked in my sig (not made by me). Lots of cool options without the brokenness of normal epic spellcasting.

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    Default Re: FeanMerc's Epic Spellcasting System

    I've been working on a rewrite of most of the epic rules, and spellcasting is one of the big ones. So far the plan is to do away with epic spellcasting as written and I've been making as many 10th level and higher spells as I can think of (started out by assigning levels to the pre-existing epic spells from the SRD and a few other books like it's wet/cold/hot outside).

    Quote Originally Posted by GoC View Post
    Try the epic spellcasting replacement linked in my sig (not made by me). Lots of cool options without the brokenness of normal epic spellcasting.
    Interest is piqued! Reading now.
    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    Lower levels arcane spells are usually a drag, but lower level psionic powers are often just higher ones waiting to be augmented.

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    Default Re: FeanMerc's Epic Spellcasting System

    Quote Originally Posted by jokey665 View Post
    Interest is piqued! Reading now.
    Could you PM critiques of my Origin of Species spell in that thread? And suggestions for replicating the remaining epic spells?
    Last edited by GoC; 2010-01-03 at 08:34 PM.

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