A houserule question

[Setra]

I hope this goes here rather than "roleplaying", sorry if I'm wrong.

Okay so despite the fact I've never PLAYED D&D before my friends want me to run a game because I know more than anyone else about it and we all wanted to try it out.

I don't like using Strength to Hit. I think it should be dexterity. Now obviously using dex to hit and str for damage would weaken melee, which they don't need to be.

So what if I gave them 2 points to hit for every +1 to dex, and 2 points of damage for every +1 in strength?

[Ashtagon]

If you think Dex should affect melee attack rolls, you're in good company. Traveller d20 (aka T20) agrees with you.

That said...

If do this, you are loading (many would say overloading) Dex with too many goodies. And that's assuming it only provides the standard ability modifier x1 bonus. x2 is just crazy good, and makes Dex a no-brainer in any point-buy system.

In a system where stats are rolled for, your system effectively gives double the normal melee attack and damage bonus, with no disadvantage at all, again overpowering things and starting an arms race.

You'll also probably want to replace the Weapon Finese feat with a "Brutal Strike" feat, to allow Str to be used for attack rolls with particularly heavy weapons.

The fundamental problem with shifting attack bonus from Str to Dex is that an attack roll is intended to be not just the odds of making contact, but making contact with enough force to be meaningful.

[Setra]

If do this, you are loading (many would say overloading) Dex with too many goodies. And that's assuming it only provides the standard ability modifier x1 bonus. x2 is just crazy good, and makes Dex a no-brainer in any point-buy system.

In a system where stats are rolled for, your system effectively gives double the normal melee attack and damage bonus, with no disadvantage at all, again overpowering things and starting an arms race.

Well for starters, we'll be using point buy rather than rolling, I should have mentioned that, sorry.

I actually wouldn't mind giving them a bit of a boost.. the only two melee are the people who know the least about the game (A Monk and a Paladin)

You'll also probably want to replace the Weapon Finese feat with a "Brutal Strike" feat, to allow Str to be used for attack rolls with particularly heavy weapons.

Oh, that's a good idea.. Though no one is using two handed weapons, they might later.

The fundamental problem with shifting attack bonus from Str to Dex is that an attack roll is intended to be not just the odds of making contact, but making contact with enough force to be meaningful.

True, but I felt the "enough force" was represented better by training (BaB), rather than raw strength. This is of course just my opinion.

[Ashtagon]

Since you are using point buy, my statement about Dex still stands. Granting x2 Dex modifier on melee attack roll is just crazy good, especially when missile attack rolls only get x1 Dex modifier. (And things just get silly if you also double the missile attack bonus from Dex.)

Doubling the damage modifier from Str is more reasonable, as Str doesn't actually account for a huge part of the damage potential once optimisation with magic items and buffs begins in earnest. If you go this route though, make it (Str-10), not Str modifier, in order to allow for a bit more granularity in the system.

Brutal Strike should be applicable to any two-handed weapon, any "versatile" weapon (4e term) such as the bastard sword or dwarven waraxe, plus one-handed (not light) weapons where the bulk of the weapon's mass is at the far end of the weapon (essentially axes and hammers).

[Setra]

Since you are using point buy, my statement about Dex still stands. Granting x2 Dex modifier on melee attack roll is just crazy good, especially when missile attack rolls only get x1 Dex modifier. (And things just get silly if you also double the missile attack bonus from Dex.)

Doubling the damage modifier from Str is more reasonable, as Str doesn't actually account for a huge part of the damage potential once optimisation with magic items and buffs begins in earnest. If you go this route though, make it (Str-10), not Str modifier, in order to allow for a bit more granularity in the system.

So you're saying I should give Strength more since I'm taking away, but not to give dex anything since it's got plenty, then?

I guess that does make sense, alright.

Brutal Strike should be applicable to any two-handed weapon, any "versatile" weapon (4e term) such as the bastard sword or dwarven waraxe, plus one-handed (not light) weapons where the bulk of the weapon's mass is at the far end of the weapon (essentially axes and hammers).

Ah, I see.. basically any weapon you can't finesse... hey wait.. what if I just have To Hit determined by weapon type? I know my friends, if they were going to use a light weapon they'd be using dex types anyways.. so basically it's just free weapon finesse.

They'd probably take brutal strike if I went with dex for to hit anyways.

[Ashtagon]

The way I wrote that, no light weapon could benefit from brutal strike, and most medium weapons (such as clubs, maces, longswords, and spears) also do not benefit from Brutal Strike.

Contrast with Weapon Finesse, which is essentially all light weapons, plus a specific set of one-handed weapons (for most purposes, the one-handed weapon list is the chain and the rapier, although there are others that aren't so popular). There are items covered by neither Weapon Finesse nor brutal Strike.

Obviously, no campaign should have both feats, and the one that can be chosen by characters depends on whether melee attacks are determined by Str or Dex.

[Ashtagon]

Overall recommendation that I think is as balanced and reasonable within the limits of "apply Dex bonus to melee attack rolls".

nb. Anything not specifically noted as changed is assumed to be the same as RAW.

* Strength modifier x2 applies to melee damage rolls (this is mathematically equivalent to (Str-10), except that Str-10 provides for a smoother progression with fewer bumps).
* Strength modifier does not apply to melee damage attack rolls (but see the Brutal Strike feat).
* Dexterity modifier applies to melee attack rolls.
* Weapon Finesse feat does not exist.
* New feat: Brutal Strike (see below)

Brutal Strike (General)

• Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
• Benefit: With a two-handed weapon, one-handed (not light) axe or pick or hammer, or versatile weapon (such as a bastard sword) made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Strength modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armour check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
• Special: A fighter may select Brutal Strike as one of his fighter bonus feats. Creatures that have a natural attack that does lethal damage without special training (i.e. not human monks) may apply Brutal Strike to their natural attacks.

As defined above, the full list of SRD weapons that can benefit from Brutal Strike is as follows:

* Simple/2h: longspear, quarterstaff, spear
* Martial/1h: Battleaxe, pick (heavy), warhammer
* Martial/2h: (all)
* Exotic Versatile/1h: sword (bastard), waraxe (dwarven)
* Exotic/2h: (all)

Edit: Corrected note about Strength modifier (highlighted in blue).

Edit: Based on Dracodei's comment, removed teh bit about shields reducing attack ability.

[Spiryt]

I can't see why it should be strenght or dexterity with any weapon to be fair.
Although doing something like 1/2 strenght mod + 1/2 Dex would be probably akward.

Personally I would stay with strenght to hit, with just some nice feats/class abilities to add some part of Dex bonus to certain hits.

D&D (nor any other system too of course) abilites anyway don't make so much sense, so strenght can perfectly do for overall body ability and dynamics, explosiveness and stuff.

Dexterity quite clearly covers coordinations and other important stuff, though, but meh.

Of course, if you really want Dex to attack, that's not helpful to you.

[Siosilvar]

* Exotic Versatile/1h: sword (bastard), waraxe (dwarven)

Except those are also two-handed martial weapons.

How about "any weapon you wield in two hands, or a battleaxe, warhammer, heavy mace, heavy pick, or dwarven waraxe used in one hand"?

[Setra]

Overall recommendation that I think is as balanced and reasonable within the limits of "apply Dex bonus to melee attack rolls".

nb. Anything not specifically noted as changed is assumed to be the same as RAW.

* Strength modifier x2 applies to melee damage rolls (this is mathematically equivalent to (Str-10), except that Str-10 provides for a smoother progression with fewer bumps).
* Strength modifier does not apply to melee damage rolls (but see the Brutal Strike feat).
* Dexterity modifier applies to melee attack rolls.
* Weapon Finesse feat does not exist.
* New feat: Brutal Strike (see below)

This sounds good to me, thanks. (Though I think you meant 'Strength modifier does not apply to melee attack rolls' rather than damage)

Except those are also two-handed martial weapons.

How about "any weapon you wield in two hands, or a battleaxe, warhammer, heavy mace, heavy pick, or dwarven waraxe used in one hand"?

How about "any melee weapon weighing more than 3 pounds"? This would also qualify the light mace, but since it's a mace (light weapon or no) that's fine with me

[Ashtagon]

Except those are also two-handed martial weapons.

How about "any weapon you wield in two hands, or a battleaxe, warhammer, heavy mace, heavy pick, or dwarven waraxe used in one hand"?

Yeah, that works fine too. I was trying to word things in a way that would account for stuff beyond the SRD. But within the limits of only SRD weapons, that works perfectly to describe what I was aiming for.

My point about the "versatile" weapons (dwarven waraxe and bastard sword) is that the feat applies whether used one-handed or two-handed.

[Siosilvar]

How about "any melee weapon weighing more than 3 pounds"? This would also qualify the light mace, but since it's a mace (light weapon or no) that's fine with me

Hmm... Looking at it, that works quite well. All the Weapon-finesse eligible weapons weight 1, 2, or 3 lbs. Except the spiked chain.

"any melee weapon weighing 4 or more pounds" would probably cause slightly less confusion among the masses.

[DracoDei]

" If you carry a shield, its armour check penalty applies to your attack rolls." Is left over from weapon finesse in my humble opinion, and should be removed.

[Setra]

"any melee weapon weighing 4 or more pounds" would probably cause slightly less confusion among the masses.

Hm, that was my original wording but I changed it before I posted. I can change it back though.

Thanks

[Ashtagon]

I wouldn't do it by melee weapon weight. I chose axes, picks, and hammers for the specific reason that they are "unbalanced" weapons (that is, the centre of balance of the weapon is quite far up the haft of the weapon (even more so than clubs, maces, and spears), as opposed to balanced weapons, where the centre of balance is within an inch or two of the grip). The unbalanced nature of those weapons allows you to more easily use your Strength when wielding the weapon.

The versatile and two-handed weapons were selected because they are just plain big

" If you carry a shield, its armour check penalty applies to your attack rolls." Is left over from weapon finesse in my humble opinion, and should be removed.

I intentionally left this in, because you can legitimately wield a battleaxe with a shield.

[DracoDei]

I intentionally left this in, because you can legitimately wield a battleaxe with a shield.

I know you can... I also think that "SMASH HARD!!!" isn't a combat style that is inhibited by a weight on your other arm nearly as much as the style implied by Weapon Finesse.

[Roderick_BR]

The reason Str is used to change to-hit chances, is that in the old editions, they wanted fighters to hit more than thief/rogues.
Others games would consider it fine. A dexterous person would connect more hits, but a strong character would deal more damage.
You can do like 4E did, and just allow a character to use either ability he wants. Or make the Weapon Finesse be automatic to all valid weapons, meaning that you can be quick to swing a short sword, but need to be strong to swing properly a greatsword.

[Wind d8/d12]

Disclaimer: The rules are meant to be changed, bent and broken as a DM sees fit and I heartily recommend exercising your creativity.

Now that that's out of the way, the vanilla standard Dungeons and Dragons ruleset as it is presented in the DMG and the PHB has been play tested and debated about for years and years by people with varying levels of experience. As a new DM I believe that you would be better served by sticking to the black and white rules until you are more comfortable with the nuances of running a game. While Rule 0 is the only commandment necessary in a D&D game, it is both helpful and comforting to have the established rules (which likely will be in a book the players have PAID for) to back you up when the inevitable excrement hits the portable air circulator. I speak only from experience as a D20 GM and DM and as a player who has seen friendships RUINED over disagreements regarding the rules.