Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 85
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2009

    Default Evokers suck? 3.5

    Now, I have always played transmuters, or sometimes I'll play an illusionist for a change. And I have always agreed that direct damage spells are a weak option.

    But recently, for a change, I decided to make an evoker, just for fun. I figured I'd play a bit, blast some orphanages, he'd die, and that would be that.

    But.. He did really really well. Ending many encounters on the first or second turn. The reason I retired him was because he was too good, and the rest of my party was doing nothing. And this was not a weak party. We have one newbie playing a Ninja, but the others are veterans playing a Druid, a Warforged cleric, and a Barbarian/cheesy prestige classes.

    Anyway, he was a grey elf evoker. I took the focused specialist variant, as well as the evoker varient to increase the caster level of my fire spells. I took the searing spell metamagic feat, as well as empower spell. Thanks to Metamagic school focus, and arcane thesis, I was able to cast empowered searing fireballs, with caster level 13, when I was level 8.

    In case you did not know, searing spell makes your fire spells so hot, that they ignore fire resistance, and deal half damage to fire immunity.

    I one hit killed the dragonne. And the group of Dwarven guards in the prison. And the ogre-mages who attacked us. And I two hit killed the undead Kraken. How is this underpowered?

    I still like playing an illusionist more, since you can have a lot more fun, but I do not see why people seem to think that evokers are underpowered. I admit, the power of my evoker would not scale up well in higher levels. But for low to mid levels.. Anyway, your thoughts?
    Last edited by ChrisDemilich; 2009-12-31 at 08:52 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yuki Akuma's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    The Land of Angles
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Evokers suck?

    Well, okay, sure, a character built entirely around using cheesy metamagic reduction is going to be quite powerful, no matter what spells he specialises in.

    Evokers are only underpowered compared to other Wizard specialities. They're still freaking Wizards!
    There's no wrong way to play. - S. John Ross

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."
    Spoiler
    Show

    Baiyan, God of Joy, by GryffonDurime, while the C.U.T.E Scardycat and Dreamer are by Tomb Raven.


    I'm very slowly working on a Legend of Zelda-themed homebrew for D&D 5e. God help me.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Mar 2009

    Default Re: Evokers suck?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    Well, okay, sure, a character built entirely around using cheesy metamagic reduction is going to be quite powerful, no matter what spells he specialises in.

    Evokers are only underpowered compared to other Wizard specialities. They're still freaking Wizards!
    Yeah this. It's not that evokers are a bad class in the overall schema of things, it's just that in comparison to other options, they're simply less optimal.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
     
    The Glyphstone's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    Pretty much.

    9000 < Evoker < Other Wizards.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2009-12-31 at 08:55 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
    Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode
    Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2009

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    That is very true. And I admit, it's a lot more fun to reshape the world around the enemy, make them question their sanity, make the DM wonder what could happen next, and turn my party into storming avatars of death.

    But sometimes, blowing S**t up is satisfying..

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yuki Akuma's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    The Land of Angles
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    This is why you prepare Shadow Evocation every morning.

    Or play a Shadowcraft Mage and prepare nothing but Heightened Silent Images.
    There's no wrong way to play. - S. John Ross

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."
    Spoiler
    Show

    Baiyan, God of Joy, by GryffonDurime, while the C.U.T.E Scardycat and Dreamer are by Tomb Raven.


    I'm very slowly working on a Legend of Zelda-themed homebrew for D&D 5e. God help me.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2009

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    Shadowcraft Mage. o.O

    I am not familiar with them.. Yet. Time to peruse my books.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yuki Akuma's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    The Land of Angles
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    Races of Stone. Gnome-only, but Gnomes have a racial substitution class for Illusionist that's pretty awesome anyway, so I can't see why you wouldn't be a Gnome if you're an Illusionist.
    There's no wrong way to play. - S. John Ross

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."
    Spoiler
    Show

    Baiyan, God of Joy, by GryffonDurime, while the C.U.T.E Scardycat and Dreamer are by Tomb Raven.


    I'm very slowly working on a Legend of Zelda-themed homebrew for D&D 5e. God help me.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2009

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    If I am playing Illusionist, I alway go Whisper Gnome. :)

    And yeah, I am reading Races of Stone right now. Getting to know the inticacies of Shadowcraft Mages... So I may break them.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tyndmyr's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    Specialized evoker/force missile mage could be fun. Stack on the usual metamagic cheese, and watch everything die.

    Yeah, evocation is awesome if you want to kill something via hitpoints. It's one of the few schools that's fine to ban...but already perfectly fine to specialize in. Sure, orbs are great too. You specialized...you can still take other stuff.

    That said, picking three schools to ban is tougher when you foc specialize in a traditional drop school like evocation. I'd typically drop illusion/enchant/necro, but that's a lot of schools to drop. It gets even worse if you opt to take up incantatrix.

    In the end, people drop evocation not because it's actually bad, but because it's replacable.
    Back from a lengthy vacation from Giantitp. I've been dabbling with 3d printer technology and game design, PM if you're curious.

    "World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimization."

    New: Tyndmyr has a game shop!

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yuki Akuma's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    The Land of Angles
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, Earth Spell, Arcane Disciple (Luck).

    Congratulations, you're now casting 140% real Miracles from your 9th-level spell slots.

    For even more fun, Signature Spell (Silent Image) - spontaneously convert any spell into any Evocation, Conjuration (Creation) or Conjuration (Summoning) spell.
    Last edited by Yuki Akuma; 2009-12-31 at 09:05 PM.
    There's no wrong way to play. - S. John Ross

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."
    Spoiler
    Show

    Baiyan, God of Joy, by GryffonDurime, while the C.U.T.E Scardycat and Dreamer are by Tomb Raven.


    I'm very slowly working on a Legend of Zelda-themed homebrew for D&D 5e. God help me.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2009

    wink Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, Earth Spell, Arcane Disciple (Luck).

    Congratulations, you're now casting 140% real Miracles from your 9th-level spell slots.

    For even more fun, Signature Spell (Silent Image) - spontaneously convert any spell into any Evocation, Conjuration (Creation) or Conjuration (Summoning) spell.
    Hahahahaha! *copies down*

    ;D I like my wizards, with that extra cheese!

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yuki Akuma's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    The Land of Angles
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    There's a reason they're called Killer Gnomes.
    There's no wrong way to play. - S. John Ross

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."
    Spoiler
    Show

    Baiyan, God of Joy, by GryffonDurime, while the C.U.T.E Scardycat and Dreamer are by Tomb Raven.


    I'm very slowly working on a Legend of Zelda-themed homebrew for D&D 5e. God help me.

  14. - Top - End - #14

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    "You weak minded fools! If you had the strength of will to look past his illusionary fire, you would see that - OH GOD, IT BURNS! IT BURNS EVEN HOTTER THAN THE REAL THING!"

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yuki Akuma's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    The Land of Angles
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    20d6 fire damage. Will save for 28d6. Reflex save for half.

    There's no wrong way to play. - S. John Ross

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."
    Spoiler
    Show

    Baiyan, God of Joy, by GryffonDurime, while the C.U.T.E Scardycat and Dreamer are by Tomb Raven.


    I'm very slowly working on a Legend of Zelda-themed homebrew for D&D 5e. God help me.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Pharaoh's Fist View Post
    "You weak minded fools! If you had the strength of will to look past his illusionary fire, you would see that - OH GOD, IT BURNS! IT BURNS EVEN HOTTER THAN THE REAL THING!"
    I like this. Can I sig this?
    My girlfriend(non-gamer) after watching me play an RPG on the Xbox: "So, you're just killing people and taking their stuff?"
    Me-.....Right!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pharaoh's Fist View Post
    "You weak minded fools! If you had the strength of will to look past his illusionary fire, you would see that - OH GOD, IT BURNS! IT BURNS EVEN HOTTER THAN THE REAL THING!"

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NeoVid's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    CA East Bay
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Evokers suck?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kylarra View Post
    Yeah this. It's not that evokers are a bad class in the overall schema of things, it's just that in comparison to other options, they're simply less optimal.
    "Least powerful wizard build" is about the same as "Least powerful nuclear weapon."
    "I hated one of the games in this genre 7 years ago, so this other game I know nothing about sucks!"
    =====

    Avatar of Karl the human by Bradakhan

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Banned
     
    Optimystik's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    OP: If your DM is allowing Arcane Thesis, don't waste it on an evoker!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    Races of Stone. Gnome-only, but Gnomes have a racial substitution class for Illusionist that's pretty awesome anyway, so I can't see why you wouldn't be a Gnome if you're an Illusionist.
    Actually, the adaptation section of SCM specifically suggests opening it up to any race.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Pharaoh's Fist View Post
    "You weak minded fools! If you had the strength of will to look past his illusionary fire, you would see that - OH GOD, IT BURNS! IT BURNS EVEN HOTTER THAN THE REAL THING!"
    Tammi Terrell says: This fireball..

    Ain't nothing like the real thing, baby.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Thrice Dead Cat's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Central Illinois
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    Congratulations, you're now casting 140% real Miracles from your 6th-level spell slots.

    For even more fun, Signature Spell (Silent Image) - spontaneously convert any spell into any Evocation, Conjuration (Creation) or Conjuration (Summoning) spell.
    Fixed that for you.


    Seriously, though, the Killer Gnome can be silly. Grab Residual Metamagic (Complete Mage) so your 0th-level Silent Images also become Miracles.


    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2008

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    Eh at least for the miracle part it really depends on just exactly what a sorcerer or wizard evocation spell as to whether one actually needs to take the feat arcane disciple (luck). It would be good to check if a sorcerer or wizard evocation spell means a evocation spell on the sorcerer or wizard spell list. Then since the only way that the trick would work is if arcane disciple and so forth add the spells to the sorcerer or wizard spell list thus if any sorcerer or wizard ever has taken arcane disciple (luck) then you would not have to as the spells are now on the sorcerer or wizard list. So one should check as to save a feat in that case and as the build can be somewhat feat starved this would be somewhat of a boon.
    Last edited by olentu; 2010-01-01 at 03:28 AM.

  22. - Top - End - #22

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintjebus View Post
    I like this. Can I sig this?
    Yes, though I'm fairly sure someone else said it somewhere else before I did.

  23. - Top - End - #23

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    Killer Gnome is an example of one of those cheese builds.

    You can also try the Incantatrix Conjurer with orbs, if you want blasting. It's not unreasonable to be able to 1 shot a great wyrm dragon with high levels and meta abuse.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yuki Akuma's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    The Land of Angles
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Actually, the adaptation section of SCM specifically suggests opening it up to any race.
    That makes absolutely no difference to the fact that by default it's gnome-only.

    Just like by default the Swordsage doesn't cast spells and the Erudite can only learn psionic powers.
    There's no wrong way to play. - S. John Ross

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."
    Spoiler
    Show

    Baiyan, God of Joy, by GryffonDurime, while the C.U.T.E Scardycat and Dreamer are by Tomb Raven.


    I'm very slowly working on a Legend of Zelda-themed homebrew for D&D 5e. God help me.

  25. - Top - End - #25

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    That makes absolutely no difference to the fact that by default it's gnome-only.

    Just like by default the Swordsage doesn't cast spells and the Erudite can only learn psionic powers.
    It does, however, show that the intent is to provide valid and legal variants.

    By default, wizards don't get the ability to do 10 foot immediate action teleports at level 1.

    But that doesn't change the fact that Abrupt Jaunt is a valid, legal variant.

    Just as your statement doesn't change the fact that expanding the allowed races is explicitly recommended in the SCM entry.

    Few people care about the default, and what the base is. People are more concerned with the legal, the allowed, and what the final product is.
    Last edited by PhoenixRivers; 2010-01-01 at 07:07 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yuki Akuma's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    The Land of Angles
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    The adaptation section isn't the same as the fully fleshed out variants. They're more along the lines of suggested house rules.

    If you can convince your DM to let you play a Shadowcraft Mage without being a Gnome, more power to you, although I don't see why (due to Gnome Illusionists having Silent Image as a cantrip, it makes them slightly more powerful anyway).
    There's no wrong way to play. - S. John Ross

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."
    Spoiler
    Show

    Baiyan, God of Joy, by GryffonDurime, while the C.U.T.E Scardycat and Dreamer are by Tomb Raven.


    I'm very slowly working on a Legend of Zelda-themed homebrew for D&D 5e. God help me.

  27. - Top - End - #27

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    The adaptation section isn't the same as the fully fleshed out variants. They're more along the lines of suggested house rules.

    If you can convince your DM to let you play a Shadowcraft Mage without being a Gnome, more power to you, although I don't see why (due to Gnome Illusionists having Silent Image as a cantrip, it makes them slightly more powerful anyway).
    There are other races that gain other benefits that are useful.

    Note: They carry the same weight as any variant. They are optional selections that you can use or discard, as you see fit.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    quiet1mi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    In the shadows
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    Favorite thread... because most things die when their HP hits -10...
    Spoiler
    Show
    A Fighter/Paladin will just hack you to bits

    A Wizard/Sorcerer will just blow you up with a spell

    A Rogue/Ranger/Monk will just kill you in your sleep

    A Cleric/Druid will just squash you after buffing himself

    A Bard will slowly twist your ethics, corrupt your morals, and make you do vile acts just for the chance to face him. When you fight him, he will have your family and friends fighting for him. For he wields the deadliest weapon against you and that is, his word against yours.

  29. - Top - End - #29

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    0 for monsters.
    Last edited by Pharaoh's Fist; 2010-01-01 at 08:57 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Evokers suck? 3.5

    I think what hasn't been mentioned here is how easy it is to make a min maxed cheesed up evoker... it is a very simple concept, abuse metamagic reducers to get your damage to go up the wazoo.

    As for one shotting the dragon... as a wizard, using other schools you could, at a lower level, one shot the dragon without rolling a single dice... its a simple case of "I decided to kill the dragon, so I did" and there is nothing it can do to resist. no saves, no nothing. Although, I guess with the right metamagic dice rolling can be taken out of the equation for the evoker too.

    There is also the matter of defenses. the proper defense against evocation isn't "fire/ice/lightening/acid/sonic immunity/resistance" (although many things have it and its a hurdle to overcome), it is an optimized ref save with evasion.

    Making a non evoker wizard shine requires more complicated and less intuitive planning, but overall nets you higher amounts of power if you can pull it off (char op experts can, the average person will have trouble even with guides). [EDIT] ok, I exaggerate... but it is less simple. [/EDIT]
    I would agree that blaster mages are underrated and underestimated compared to other mages if you allow meta reducers cheese.

    part of the problem is, because certain things are so easy to defend against (blasting, mind effecting, etc), people don't use it, because people don't use it, people get complacent and don't bother having proper defenses.
    I have been in a game where an enemy bbeg was a warmage with arcane thesised fireball... he went first... and TPKed with one fireball.
    Last edited by taltamir; 2010-01-01 at 09:22 AM.
    I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!

    the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •