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    Default Re: Pathfinder Question

    Did a little more research on the paladin problem. It does say that a Paladin falls if they ever willingly commit an evil act. It then goes on to loosely explain the paladin's code.

    A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

    Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
    Note the "Additionally" - the paladin code is separate from the indicator of what makes a paladin fall. And note - minor violations of your code of conduct? Lying for the greater good? Neutral acts, not evil ones. But that goes into an alignment debate that pretty much throws any pretense of objectivity out the window, so I won't explore it any more.

    RAW, a paladin does not fall for violating his code. He falls if he ever willingly commits an evil act. (That is, willingly - if deceived into doing so or under compulsion to do so, he does not fall.) Only gross violations of his code can reasonably be considered evil acts.
    Last edited by Rixx; 2010-02-03 at 06:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Rixx View Post

    All I'm saying is if you're going to disregard the entire system because of one rule (or rather, an unfavorable interpretation of one rule) you don't like, I wonder how you're able to bring yourself to play 3.5 in the first place.
    I do have some other problems. They nerfed melee (power attack is gone for example and critical feats I don't really see the point of.) and I just don't feel like learning a whole new edition if the vast majority of 3.5 was unchanged. If they'd done something about the balance issue I'd consider playing the edition in spite of that. However, the only Class I feel like playing (Paladin) the DM said I was going to fall for any violation.

    I'm not going to play in a game like that and no other ones are available. I'll just say that I have problems with the edition and leave it at that.
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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Question

    The problem is that some people walk into this expecting a miracle from Paizo. It's like going to see a mid-budget comedy flick at the movies expecting a Lord of the Ring epicness: you'll just be disappointed.

    If you go in knowing that Pathfinder will fix a decent amount of smaller things and are willing to incorporate those things into your 3.5 games, then you'll be happy like I am.

    I haven't been playing 3.5 in a while. I've been playing my own system which is very very similar to 3.5. The release of Pathfinder just means that my section of houserules got bigger and better.
    NS2...it's time to evolve again.

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    Riiiiiight. I wouldn't bother converting stat blocks unless I was going to publish it. You either go "golems. Oh yeah. BAB adjustment +3" and apply a +whatever buff in combat. Or you forget AND NO ONE EVER NOTICES. It is really very simple. I cannot tell you how shocked I would be if my players were fighting a stone golem and someone watched me roll the dice and say what AC I hit and actually realized that I had forgotten to make the BAB change. If they did notice a discrepancy, they would probably just chalk it up to a DM modification to the monster.
    In which case you are not actually converting the product, you are just making up random numbers.
    Which of course is up to each individual.
    Of course it rather defeats the purpose of having an actual rules system, but as long as no one notices . . .

    For people interested in actual compatibility and conversions, those issues remain.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Question

    To the paladin issue, comparing the two:

    Quote Originally Posted by 3.5 SRD
    Code of Conduct
    A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

    Additionally, a paladinís code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

    Ex-Paladins
    A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladinís mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.
    Quote Originally Posted by PF PRD
    Code of Conduct
    A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

    Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

    Ex-Paladins
    A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see atonement), as appropriate.
    The only real difference I see is the removal of "grossly". So, yeah, PF's paladin's rules are stricter than 3.5's. Technically a 3.5 paladin can violate his code, as long as it is not "grossly", while a PF paladin can never violate his code, even in the cases where two different aspects of his code conflict, without falling.

    Also someone mentioned that a paladin only falls if they commit an evil act. Sorry, the text does not support that in either edition.
    Last edited by pres_man; 2010-02-03 at 11:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubi View Post
    I do have some other problems. They nerfed melee (power attack is gone for example and critical feats I don't really see the point of.) and I just don't feel like learning a whole new edition if the vast majority of 3.5 was unchanged. If they'd done something about the balance issue I'd consider playing the edition in spite of that. However, the only Class I feel like playing (Paladin) the DM said I was going to fall for any violation.

    I'm not going to play in a game like that and no other ones are available. I'll just say that I have problems with the edition and leave it at that.
    Power attack isn't gone - it actually gives you bigger returns on your attack roll penalty now. (-1 to your roll gives +3 to damage, if you're using a two-hander) You just can't vary the amount you sacrifice.

    It seems like most of your problems are with your DM, not the system. But if you're that set in your ways to not even give it a shot, it's probably not for you regardless - but parroting misinformation about it isn't necessary. You don't have to justify your decision if it's only a matter of taste.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Rixx View Post
    Power attack isn't gone - it actually gives you bigger returns on your attack roll penalty now. (-1 to your roll gives +3 to damage, if you're using a two-hander) You just can't vary the amount you sacrifice.
    And now I'll just shut up because I seem to keep spouting incosistencies or things that I know aren't true. (should have remembered that power attack wasn't gone)

    However, I am going to give the edition a chance if this one guy can get back on here.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    The problem is that some people walk into this expecting a miracle from Paizo. It's like going to see a mid-budget comedy flick at the movies expecting a Lord of the Ring epicness: you'll just be disappointed.
    Moreso if you believed the advertising for the movie and expected it to live up to the hype.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubi View Post
    And now I'll just shut up because I seem to keep spouting incosistencies or things that I know aren't true. (should have remembered that power attack wasn't gone)

    However, I am going to give the edition a chance if this one guy can get back on here.
    It's okay! I don't blame you - a lot of people say a lot of things about Pathfinder that aren't true, and the only way you can really get a feel for it is by actually playing it.

    I've played in a Pathfinder campaign since the beta and I could never go back to 3.5. It doesn't radically re-balance the game, but it streamlines it and makes it funner and easier to play. Plus, more customization options for every class - always nice!

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Rixx View Post
    Power attack isn't gone - it actually gives you bigger returns on your attack roll penalty now. (-1 to your roll gives +3 to damage, if you're using a two-hander) You just can't vary the amount you sacrifice.
    In all fairness, that version of Power Attack is a massive difference from the original. What Power Attack was used for in 3.5 no longer exists in Pathfinder. You no longer have Shock Troopers doing instant kills, for example.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Question

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    What Power Attack was used for in 3.5 no longer exists in Pathfinder.
    Sorry Jaron, this is wrong. Like I said, I'm in a Pathfinder campaign, and Power Attack is used for pretty much the same thing as it usually is used for in 3.5 games, ie "Take a small penalty to hit something harder." The only time it's an issue is if you only ever used Power Attack in Shock Trooper builds or similar, which most people don't do.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Rixx View Post
    ...and the only way you can really get a feel for it is by actually playing it.
    Yup, and that is exactly what the 4vengers claimed as well. Sorry, I can look at the rules and decide they are not for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rixx View Post
    ... but it streamlines it and makes it funner and easier to play.
    Good to know that when I play 3.5, it is not very fun or easy. Yeah, heard the same type of comments from the 4e folks (anybody remember the "don't grapple the troll" video?), didn't buy it then, still don't buy it now.

    PF: for those that are late to the 3.5 party or those that like jump on the newest stuff.

    Humorously, I wonder how many PF fans were the ones complaining about power creep in 3.5 with the splat books, and yet PF punches it up several levels.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Question

    Quote Originally Posted by UglyPanda View Post
    There are people who would say "Why should I bother learning new rules?" and "If it's barely noticeable, why should I play it?".
    Why do people play most games? Because thats what the DM is running. If you sat down a PF player at a table and handed him a PHB, he could make a character. He would understand BAB and saving throws. He would know what all the classes are, and basically how feats work. You would have to spend a minute explaining the skill changes, but he would understand how the skill system works. He could function in a combat. He essentially has played the same game you are playing, and enjoyed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by UglyPanda View Post
    Simply going by the people who show up in these threads and then saying that one side doesn't count is a very bad way to make an opinion.*
    I didn't say that anyone didn't count. I agree that many of their criticisms are entirely valid. What I said is that the attitudes of forum posters do not well reflect the gaming public at large.

    Most of the PF changes are things that only a dedicated gamer would NOTICE, let alone care about. If I asked "What do grease and blink do, and if I weakened them who would it hurt?" most forum goers could tell me the specifics of those spells, and would know that nerfing them weakens rogues, who use them to sneak attack. The large majority of the casual D&D players I know (or, all of them without much experience playing wizards) would be able to tell you that they were wizard spells, maybe that they were low level, and give you an impression of the flavor of the spells, but wouldn't know the specifics without looking in the PHB. Most would think that nerfing them was a wizard nerf. To the average gamer, 3.5 and PF are the same system. Interchangeable. The differences between the 2, if noticeable at all, would be less important than practical considerations like "Who is DMing? Who is Playing? and What are the OOC factors (location, time, etc) around the game."

    "You can have my PHB when you pry it from my cold dead hands" is fine and a valid opinion. It just isn't an opinion that in my experience represents the majority of gamers, who just want to sit down, drink Mountain Dew and cast fireball.

    Quote Originally Posted by pres_man View Post
    Humorously, I wonder how many PF fans were the ones complaining about power creep in 3.5 with the splat books, and yet PF punches it up several levels.
    Actually, the one player I have met who played PF and refused to play 3.5 cited exactly that reason. *Shrugs*
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2010-02-04 at 09:10 AM.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Question

    Quote Originally Posted by pres_man View Post
    Good to know that when I play 3.5, it is not very fun or easy. Yeah, heard the same type of comments from the 4e folks (anybody remember the "don't grapple the troll" video?), didn't buy it then, still don't buy it now.

    PF: for those that are late to the 3.5 party or those that like jump on the newest stuff.

    Humorously, I wonder how many PF fans were the ones complaining about power creep in 3.5 with the splat books, and yet PF punches it up several levels.
    To be fair, grapple took longer for a Player to use in 3.5 compared to Pathfinder (granted it is harder for the character to use in pathfinder compared to 3.5).
    So 2 steps forward and 1 back.

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    Hey everybody! (hey Dr. Nick!)

    I'm a DM of three guys and we've been playing 4th ed for about a year. Things I like about 4th is the ease of which I can set up adventures, all the classes get cool abilities, and there are a lot of helpful tools from DnDI like the character builder, adventure tools, and new content on a daily basis.

    things i dislike is the 80% focused on combat aspect, you almost HAVE to min/max from the get go, not enough fluff spell/monster/etc wise

    How is Pathfinder? I hear it is a best of 3.5 and 4th kind of deal with all the classes being a bit more balanced, less feat heavy hundred books needed, and still allows choices.

    opinions?
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    Default Re: pathfinder good/bad?

    pathfinder is basically a large set of houserules for D&D 3.5. It is not a particularly bad one, but it is not the great revelation of RPGs, either. Some of the ideas are good, some are not, and the basic problems of D&D - basically quadratic wizards vs. linear fighters has not been touched at all.
    There are a few really nice features in it, though - I particularly like the remodeled skill system- but it is neither bad nor good for everyone.

    It has very little in common with 4e, as far as I can tell.

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    Default Re: pathfinder good/bad?

    The above is correct.

    Pathfinder is neither awesome nor terrible, but a different flavor of 3.5. If you want to try something less game-combat focused than 4e, either system is a perfectly good option.
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    Default Re: pathfinder good/bad?

    I wonder how much work would be required to make Saga Edition into a D&D-like game? It seems more of a "halfway house" between 3.5 and 4E than pathfinder is, from the descriptions.
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    Default Re: pathfinder good/bad?

    Pretty much what Tyndmyr said.

    I'm only posting because I thought I was the only person who subconsciously filled in 'Hi Dr. Nick!' after every time I say 'Hi everybody!'
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    Default Re: pathfinder good/bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    I wonder how much work would be required to make Saga Edition into a D&D-like game? It seems more of a "halfway house" between 3.5 and 4E than pathfinder is, from the descriptions.
    Someone's already had a shot at it, actually. I've never tried it, and the author was aiming for Lankhmar and Conan the Barbarian more than D&D 3.5, but it looks interesting.
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    Default Re: pathfinder good/bad?

    I played a Pathfinder game for a couple of months, and I have to say that I was fairly disappointed. There are some things it does that I really like (Like Races and Sorcerous bloodlines), but the problems that I had in 3.5 I still had with Pathfinder. At that point, I had been GMing 4E for a few months, and I spent nearly every combat thinking "Geez, I wish that this was 4E). Out-of-combat, things went roughly the same as they do in 3.5E or 4E. (Actually, not quite that smoothly, since the group that I played with weren't necessarily the brightest bulbs).
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    Default Re: pathfinder good/bad?

    I have been running and playing in a Pathfinder Game and I will have to say I really like it. It has the familiarity of 3.5 with a few added elements to make it smoother. The thing I really don't understand is how people can rate how good a system is based on whether the fighter and the wizard are equally balanced. I may be the only one here but I don't want to play in a system where the guy that can swing a piece of metal really hard is on the same power level as the guy who can alter reality.

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    Default Re: pathfinder good/bad?

    I may be the only one here but I don't want to play in a system where the guy that can swing a piece of metal really hard is on the same power level as the guy who can alter reality.
    I don't thionk they should be of equal power. I just hate it that, dull, anti-heroic wizards overshadow the true heroes of any heroic saga. Wizards are usually way too powerful for my tastes in almost every Roleplaying games, and this is much worse in D&D.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrGoodCat View Post
    The thing I really don't understand is how people can rate how good a system is based on whether the fighter and the wizard are equally balanced. I may be the only one here but I don't want to play in a system where the guy that can swing a piece of metal really hard is on the same power level as the guy who can alter reality.
    You can't understand how someone could care about something that you don't?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyr View Post
    I don't thionk they should be of equal power. I just hate it that, dull, anti-heroic wizards overshadow the true heroes of any heroic saga. Wizards are usually way too powerful for my tastes in almost every Roleplaying games, and this is much worse in D&D.
    I find the only alternative is like Final Fantasy wizards. As far as I can see, anyway.

    You have 3 abilities with several subsections. Blow it up for roughly equal damage as melee (frequently less). Create a mild buff for an ally. Restore health or good condition.
    All 3 can be replicated by items, most of the time.
    It's balanced, in sheer damage output, mostly, but it fails to adress the feebleness of wizards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drengnikrafe View Post
    You have 3 abilities with several subsections. Blow it up for roughly equal damage as melee (frequently less). Create a mild buff for an ally. Restore health or good condition.
    All 3 can be replicated by items, most of the time.
    It's balanced, in sheer damage output, mostly, but it fails to adress the feebleness of wizards.
    Wait, what are you talking about here? Are you talking about Pathfinder or d20 at all? 'Cause I can't see how what you said relates to what was said above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta Kai View Post
    Wait, what are you talking about here? Are you talking about Pathfinder or d20 at all? 'Cause I can't see how what you said relates to what was said above.
    We are talking about pathfinder. We're talking about how it's impossible to balance magic with melee, or at least how pathfinder doesn't touch the issue. Something about balancing melee with magic came up. I suggested the only time I have ever seen magic on equal (or lesser) footing.
    A way that isn't fun. That's why magic is overpowered, IMO. It's just blowing things up, otherwise. Rather than just saying that, I cited an example.

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    Default Re: pathfinder good/bad?

    I like balance, even between different classes. However, balance is not nearly as important as other traits, such as having interesting, very different options to choose from.

    Pathfinder didn't really get any better on the balance issue, but it provides some fun options. Presumably as more is printed, it'll catch up with 3.5.

    3.5 wins currently on most material and customizability available. Pretty much nothing can touch it.

    On the bright side for Pf, it's new, and still supported.

    Both have substantial player bases(with significant overlap).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    To be fair, grapple took longer for a Player to use in 3.5 compared to Pathfinder (granted it is harder for the character to use in pathfinder compared to 3.5).
    So 2 steps forward and 1 back.
    In my view, more like 1 step forward, 2 steps back. I (once I put in a little time to learn the rule) don't find it all that time consuming in 3.5. If it is now used so little because the chance of failure is greater, then I guess you could argue that by never using it, it is then quicker to use (0 seconds of time will be less than any portion of a second of time).
    Definition of DMPC:
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    2: (derogatory) any character used by a DM that disrupts the game
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    Quote Originally Posted by pres_man View Post
    The only real difference I see is the removal of "grossly". So, yeah, PF's paladin's rules are stricter than 3.5's. Technically a 3.5 paladin can violate his code, as long as it is not "grossly", while a PF paladin can never violate his code, even in the cases where two different aspects of his code conflict, without falling.

    Also someone mentioned that a paladin only falls if they commit an evil act. Sorry, the text does not support that in either edition.
    The biggest problem is that both versions still allow a DM to make a paladin fall for anything at anytime, anywhere, and the RAW would justify him in every case.

    Really, the Paladin Code of Conduct is a Post-It Note someone threw into the book right before their lunch break. I wouldn't bother noticing any change in it, unless that change is 'it's gone'.
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