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Thread: If Charm Person fails...
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2010-01-04, 11:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-04, 11:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-04, 11:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-04, 11:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-04, 11:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-04, 11:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- The Land of Angles
Re: If Charm Person fails...
See succeeding on a saving throw, and from now on just trust that when five people quote a rule they know what the hell they're talking about.
So, yeah. That's not breaking the fourth wall. That is, in fact, the way non-physical magic works in the setting.
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2010-01-04, 11:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-05, 12:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-05, 12:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-05, 12:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If Charm Person fails...
Sure. You might say. Hey next time you get a chance check that out. But what you did is analogous to telling that person to go get a bank statement immediately.
Also. Chances are when some guy over there waves his hand about and says some gibberish then you get a feeling like some evil force was pushed away the very least I'm gonna do is stay away from them and put them in my "massive distrust" catagory.
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2010-01-05, 12:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If Charm Person fails...
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2010-01-05, 12:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2005
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- Toronto, City of Spires
Re: If Charm Person fails...
Indeed. If you are careful with your casting, all a target will know is the feeling of a hostile force or tingle, with nothing to direct their subsequent paranoia against. But I thought the setup of this scenario was that you were casting on a target who could see you, or who succeeded on a Spellcraft check against you. In both cases, they would have a pretty strong feeling that the guy waving his arms and muttering frightening nonsense might be somehow connected.
I do feel it pertinent to point out that this is a first-level spell we're talking about. It ain't foolproof.That is not dead which can eternal lie
And with strange aeons even death may die.
Expand for quotes.
Abd's contribution to the Animate/End A World project.
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2010-01-05, 12:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If Charm Person fails...
Actually your comment was directed to the following words:
Unfortunately, when you make a saving throw, you know someone tried to do something to do.
Yeah. They do know that someone tried something. So your original point was proven wrong. You can choose to modify your point and continue arguing but your original point was in fact proven wrong already.
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2010-01-05, 12:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If Charm Person fails...
If they succeed on their saving throw they feel a hostile tingle. They don't learn that someone tried to charm them. If anything that would probably just shift the person's attitude towards you more hostile by one level, and make several sense motive checks against you.
Now a wizard might notice you're casting charm person and view that as hostile. Fortunately the spell lays out what happens when you're attacking the target:If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.
Now they're going to hear you because the base DC to hear speech is 0. But to actually understand it you need to beat your check by 10. What you can do is increase the DC of the listen check to understand the verbal component, so they can't make their spellcraft check. Distracted by your ally is +5. At maximum range the distance adds +2 at level one, and more at higher caster levels. Which means that there's a minimum DC 17 listen check just to have the chance at having a spellcraft check.
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2010-01-05, 12:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If Charm Person fails...
No, actually, I wasn't wrong. They don't know they had to make a saving throw at all, whether it was a failed one or not. The actual game mechanic, which NPCs and PCs alike do not know exist, does in fact go unknown. The only in game application of the save is a minor effect that unless personally used against a player by the DM does not give away the caster unless said caster was being an idiot.
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2010-01-05, 12:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If Charm Person fails...
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2010-01-05, 12:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-05, 12:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If Charm Person fails...
But the person you were quoting when you made your initial argument didn't say that they did. What they said was that the person knew that someone had done something. They did not claim that it would give the caster away (barring seeing them cast the spell). So the fact that they would sense that something had happened was what you were arguing against. And your position was proven wrong. Now you are trying to claim that they wouldn't know that it was the caster who did it, but that is not the original claim you made. You changed your stance mid-discussion.
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2010-01-05, 12:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If Charm Person fails...
But they did claim that a sentient force did a quantifiable action to said mook simply because said mook had an odd feeling at random.
And no it hasn't been. Neither of you have manage to prove that having a random feeling equates knowing that someone did something outside of DM's active playing against a PC or NPC, etc.
No, no I didn't.Last edited by Tanuki Tales; 2010-01-05 at 12:30 AM.
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2010-01-05, 12:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-05, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-05, 12:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-05, 12:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If Charm Person fails...
According to the rules the target feels something is strange and may suspect a spell but does not know what kind of spell. You could even make a regular bluff check to try to convince the person it was a helpful spell.
Another scenario. My bard is in front of a wizard. I cast Charm Person, and the saving throw fails. The wizard is Charmed, but he rolls a Spellcraft check and understands that I cast Charm Person. His aptitude should be friendly toward me, but he knows that is because of the spell, and therefore has really good reason to be angry against me and to avoid me. How does the spell work in this case?
But it really doesn't matter. The wizard can rationalize it however he wants - he still thinks you are his friend.I just published my first novella, Lúnasa Days, a modern fantasy with a subtle, uncertain magic.
You can grab it on Kindle or paperback.
Proud to GM two Warhammer Adventures:
Plays as Ulrich, Student of Law
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2010-01-05, 12:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-05, 12:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-05, 12:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-05, 12:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-05, 12:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-05, 12:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: If Charm Person fails...
It's not an "odd feeling". Its a "hostile feeling". Here's the definition of hostile:
Main Entry: hos·tile
Pronunciation: \ˈhäs-təl, -ˌtī(-ə)l\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin hostilis, from hostis
Date: 1580
1 a : of or relating to an enemy <hostile fire> b : marked by malevolence <a hostile act> c : openly opposed or resisting <a hostile critic> <hostile to new ideas> d (1) : not hospitable <plants growing in a hostile environment> (2) : having an intimidating, antagonistic, or offensive nature <a hostile workplace>
2 a : of or relating to the opposing party in a legal controversy <a hostile witness> b : adverse to the interests of a property owner or corporation management <a hostile takeover>
Definition 2 has to do with legal things so we can ignore that one. Definition 1 is either relating to an enemy, marked by malevolence, openly opposed, not hospitable, or aving an intimidating nature.
Yeah all of those should make the damn random guard paranoid.
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2010-01-05, 12:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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