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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    Unfortunately, when you make a saving throw, you know someone tried to do something to do.
    Except for the fact a Saving Throw is a game mechanic. NPCs need to break the fourth wall to know about things that don't truly exist in the world they're aware of and at that point the DM is skewing it against the player.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    Except for the fact a Saving Throw is a game mechanic. NPCs need to break the fourth wall to know about things that don't truly exist in the world they're aware of and at that point the DM is skewing it against the player.
    Unless the rules say that they are aware of failing a save...which IIRC they do.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenogears View Post
    Unless the rules say that they are aware of failing a save...which IIRC they do.
    Quote please?

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    Quote please?
    If I could have quoted ti begin with I wouldn't have had to write "IIRC" would I have?

    *IIRC means If I Remember Correctly in case you don't know.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenogears View Post
    If I could have quoted ti begin with I wouldn't have had to write "IIRC" would I have?

    *IIRC means If I Remember Correctly in case you don't know.
    I know what the short hand means, thank you very much.

    Thus I asking for a quote, in case you didn't know.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    I know what the short hand means, thank you very much.

    Thus I asking for a quote, in case you didn't know.
    See succeeding on a saving throw, and from now on just trust that when five people quote a rule they know what the hell they're talking about.

    So, yeah. That's not breaking the fourth wall. That is, in fact, the way non-physical magic works in the setting.
    Last edited by Yuki Akuma; 2010-01-04 at 11:47 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    I know what the short hand means, thank you very much.

    Thus I asking for a quote, in case you didn't know.
    But thats illogical. My statement very clearly implied I was going off memory. I mean if someone said "I think I've got maybe 40 bucks in the bank" would you immediately ask them for a bank statement out of their pocket? Not likely.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    See succeeding on a saving throw, and from now on just trust that when five people quote a rule they know what the hell they're talking about.

    So, yeah. That's not breaking the fourth wall. That is, in fact, the way non-physical magic works in the setting.
    That says nothing about said mook knowing that the caster is the source of this feeling. Getting a cold chill or a bad feeling randomly doesn't mean you blame the nearest person.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenogears View Post
    But thats illogical. My statement very clearly implied I was going off memory. I mean if someone said "I think I've got maybe 40 bucks in the bank" would you immediately ask them for a bank statement out of their pocket? Not likely.
    No, but I'd ask them to try and get one to actually prove they had that money.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    No, but I'd ask them to try and get one to actually prove they had that money.
    Sure. You might say. Hey next time you get a chance check that out. But what you did is analogous to telling that person to go get a bank statement immediately.

    Also. Chances are when some guy over there waves his hand about and says some gibberish then you get a feeling like some evil force was pushed away the very least I'm gonna do is stay away from them and put them in my "massive distrust" catagory.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenogears View Post
    Sure. You might say. Hey next time you get a chance check that out. But what you did is analogous to telling that person to go get a bank statement immediately.

    Also. Chances are when some guy over there waves his hand about and says some gibberish then you get a feeling like some evil force was pushed away the very least I'm gonna do is stay away from them and put them in my "massive distrust" catagory.
    The comment came up over a Stilled Charm Person. Not necessarily in ear shot. And even if so, its easily explained away by saying the words in another language you assume the mook doesn't know so you can just explain it away as forgetting to switch to common.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenogears View Post
    Also. Chances are when some guy over there waves his hand about and says some gibberish then you get a feeling like some evil force was pushed away the very least I'm gonna do is stay away from them and put them in my "massive distrust" catagory.
    Indeed. If you are careful with your casting, all a target will know is the feeling of a hostile force or tingle, with nothing to direct their subsequent paranoia against. But I thought the setup of this scenario was that you were casting on a target who could see you, or who succeeded on a Spellcraft check against you. In both cases, they would have a pretty strong feeling that the guy waving his arms and muttering frightening nonsense might be somehow connected.

    I do feel it pertinent to point out that this is a first-level spell we're talking about. It ain't foolproof.
    That is not dead which can eternal lie
    And with strange aeons even death may die.

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    You are a bad, bad man, Abd.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycanthromancer View Post
    'Psionics' is just tapping into the core of magic within yourself, whereas the mumbo-jumbo dancing, gibbering, and flinging around esoteric material components is like trying to paint-by-numbers when the guy next to you is rendering works from Picasso by memory alone.

    Abd's contribution to the Animate/End A World project.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    The comment came up over a Stilled Charm Person. Not necessarily in ear shot. And even if so, its easily explained away by saying the words in another language you assume the mook doesn't know so you can just explain it away as forgetting to switch to common.
    Actually your comment was directed to the following words:
    Unfortunately, when you make a saving throw, you know someone tried to do something to do.

    Yeah. They do know that someone tried something. So your original point was proven wrong. You can choose to modify your point and continue arguing but your original point was in fact proven wrong already.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    If they succeed on their saving throw they feel a hostile tingle. They don't learn that someone tried to charm them. If anything that would probably just shift the person's attitude towards you more hostile by one level, and make several sense motive checks against you.

    Now a wizard might notice you're casting charm person and view that as hostile. Fortunately the spell lays out what happens when you're attacking the target:
    If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.
    There's a way to avoid giving the wizard (or anyone with high spellcraft) this bonus. To identify what you're doing they must either see or hear the spell component. So you don't cast it face to face. Have an ally talk to the target to distract them. Then sneak behind them (so they can't see the somatic component) and cast the spell at its maximum range.

    Now they're going to hear you because the base DC to hear speech is 0. But to actually understand it you need to beat your check by 10. What you can do is increase the DC of the listen check to understand the verbal component, so they can't make their spellcraft check. Distracted by your ally is +5. At maximum range the distance adds +2 at level one, and more at higher caster levels. Which means that there's a minimum DC 17 listen check just to have the chance at having a spellcraft check.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenogears View Post
    Actually your comment was directed to the following words:
    Unfortunately, when you make a saving throw, you know someone tried to do something to do.

    Yeah. They do know that someone tried something. So your original point was proven wrong. You can choose to modify your point and continue arguing but your original point was in fact proven wrong already.
    No, actually, I wasn't wrong. They don't know they had to make a saving throw at all, whether it was a failed one or not. The actual game mechanic, which NPCs and PCs alike do not know exist, does in fact go unknown. The only in game application of the save is a minor effect that unless personally used against a player by the DM does not give away the caster unless said caster was being an idiot.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    No, actually, I wasn't wrong. They don't know they had to make a saving throw at all, whether it was a failed one or not. The actual game mechanic, which NPCs and PCs alike do not know exist, does in fact go unknown. The only in game application of the save is a minor effect that unless personally used against a player by the DM does not give away the caster unless said caster was being an idiot.
    ...I said they know someone tried to do something to them. No of course they don't know that the spellcaster specifically cast a spell on them!

    So yes, you are wrong. You are arguing about something I did not say.
    Last edited by Yuki Akuma; 2010-01-05 at 12:25 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    ...I said they know someone tried to do something to them. No of course they don't know that the spellcaster specifically cast a spell on them!

    So yes, you are wrong. You are arguing about something I did not say.
    No, I'm not, since you're insinuating a chill or feeling a negative "force" on yourself insinuates someone did something to you.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    No, actually, I wasn't wrong. They don't know they had to make a saving throw at all, whether it was a failed one or not. The actual game mechanic, which NPCs and PCs alike do not know exist, does in fact go unknown. The only in game application of the save is a minor effect that unless personally used against a player by the DM does not give away the caster unless said caster was being an idiot.
    But the person you were quoting when you made your initial argument didn't say that they did. What they said was that the person knew that someone had done something. They did not claim that it would give the caster away (barring seeing them cast the spell). So the fact that they would sense that something had happened was what you were arguing against. And your position was proven wrong. Now you are trying to claim that they wouldn't know that it was the caster who did it, but that is not the original claim you made. You changed your stance mid-discussion.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenogears View Post
    But the person you were quoting when you made your initial argument didn't say that they did. What they said was that the person knew that someone had done something. They did not claim that it would give the caster away (barring seeing them cast the spell). So the fact that they would sense that something had happened was what you were arguing against. And your position was proven wrong. Now you are trying to claim that they wouldn't know that it was the caster who did it, but that is not the original claim you made. You changed your stance mid-discussion.
    But they did claim that a sentient force did a quantifiable action to said mook simply because said mook had an odd feeling at random.

    And no it hasn't been. Neither of you have manage to prove that having a random feeling equates knowing that someone did something outside of DM's active playing against a PC or NPC, etc.

    No, no I didn't.
    Last edited by Tanuki Tales; 2010-01-05 at 12:30 AM.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    They feel a hostile force. That pretty strongly indicates that something is hostile.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    But they did claim that a sentient force did a quantifiable action to said mook simply because said mook had an odd feeling at random.

    And no it hasn't been. Neither of you have manage to prove that having a random feeling equates knowing that someone did something outside of DM's active playing against a PC or NPC, etc.

    No, no I didn't.
    Well If I felt a "hostile force" in a world where there is FrigginMagic then I would think that someone had used some FrigginMagic on me. Most people would. It's very very logical.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    They feel a hostile force. That pretty strongly indicates that something is hostile.
    But without witnessing an obvious source of said force they don't know of it being more then an odd feeling, possibly caused by lack of sleep or indigestion, etc.

    Barring the caster acting stupid, which I've already mentioned.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pigkappa View Post
    My bard/wizard is in front of a guy. I cast Charm Person on that guy, and his saving throw succeeds. Now, if he isn't extremely stupid, he's just understood that I cast a spell on him, and it didn't work. Won't that make him extremely angry against me? If so, a failed Charm Person will almost always result in the contrary effect.
    According to the rules the target feels something is strange and may suspect a spell but does not know what kind of spell. You could even make a regular bluff check to try to convince the person it was a helpful spell.

    Another scenario. My bard is in front of a wizard. I cast Charm Person, and the saving throw fails. The wizard is Charmed, but he rolls a Spellcraft check and understands that I cast Charm Person. His aptitude should be friendly toward me, but he knows that is because of the spell, and therefore has really good reason to be angry against me and to avoid me. How does the spell work in this case?
    The Spellcraft DC is 15+spell level and the wizard has to have seen you cast it. If he fails or didn't actually see you cast it, he cannot be sure what spell it is. He can only guess.

    But it really doesn't matter. The wizard can rationalize it however he wants - he still thinks you are his friend.
    I just published my first novella, Lúnasa Days, a modern fantasy with a subtle, uncertain magic.

    You can grab it on Kindle or paperback.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    But without witnessing an obvious source of said force they don't know of it being more then an odd feeling, possibly caused by lack of sleep or indigestion, etc.

    Barring the caster acting stupid, which I've already mentioned.
    ...I give up.

    You win.

    Happy? Now can we change the freaking subject?
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    But without witnessing an obvious source of said force they don't know of it being more then an odd feeling, possibly caused by lack of sleep or indigestion, etc.

    Barring the caster acting stupid, which I've already mentioned.
    No. Last I checked my bowels never sent a "hostile force" at me. Neither has my insomnia.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenogears View Post
    Well If I felt a "hostile force" in a world where there is FrigginMagic then I would think that someone had used some FrigginMagic on me. Most people would. It's very very logical.
    Assuming in a setting where magic is both prevalent in most areas and encountered commonly.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    ...I give up.

    You win.

    Happy? Now can we change the freaking subject?
    You shouldn't say questionable things if you don't want to debate the implication of them.

    And I believe the subject of this thread is the repercussions of Charm Person failing, which we were discussing.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenogears View Post
    No. Last I checked my bowels never sent a "hostile force" at me. Neither has my insomnia.
    The point is Guard A doesn't automatically think "Someone must have tried to do something to me, I must now be hostile and paranoid to strangers!" because they felt an odd feeling with no apparent reason. That's the result of bad DMing.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    The point is Guard A doesn't automatically think "Someone must have tried to do something to me, I must now be hostile and paranoid to strangers!" because they felt an odd feeling with no apparent reason. That's the result of bad DMing.
    It's not an "odd feeling". Its a "hostile feeling". Here's the definition of hostile:

    Main Entry: hos·tile
    Pronunciation: \ˈhäs-təl, -ˌtī(-ə)l\
    Function: adjective
    Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin hostilis, from hostis
    Date: 1580
    1 a : of or relating to an enemy <hostile fire> b : marked by malevolence <a hostile act> c : openly opposed or resisting <a hostile critic> <hostile to new ideas> d (1) : not hospitable <plants growing in a hostile environment> (2) : having an intimidating, antagonistic, or offensive nature <a hostile workplace>
    2 a : of or relating to the opposing party in a legal controversy <a hostile witness> b : adverse to the interests of a property owner or corporation management <a hostile takeover>

    Definition 2 has to do with legal things so we can ignore that one. Definition 1 is either relating to an enemy, marked by malevolence, openly opposed, not hospitable, or aving an intimidating nature.

    Yeah all of those should make the damn random guard paranoid.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenogears View Post
    It's not an "odd feeling". Its a "hostile feeling". Here's the definition of hostile:

    Main Entry: hos·tile
    Pronunciation: \ˈhäs-təl, -ˌtī(-ə)l\
    Function: adjective
    Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin hostilis, from hostis
    Date: 1580
    1 a : of or relating to an enemy <hostile fire> b : marked by malevolence <a hostile act> c : openly opposed or resisting <a hostile critic> <hostile to new ideas> d (1) : not hospitable <plants growing in a hostile environment> (2) : having an intimidating, antagonistic, or offensive nature <a hostile workplace>
    2 a : of or relating to the opposing party in a legal controversy <a hostile witness> b : adverse to the interests of a property owner or corporation management <a hostile takeover>

    Definition 2 has to do with legal things so we can ignore that one. Definition 1 is either relating to an enemy, marked by malevolence, openly opposed, not hospitable, or aving an intimidating nature.

    Yeah all of those should make the damn random guard paranoid.
    I could childishly show you the definition of odd in this rebuttal and explain how that pertains to the discussion at hand, but I won't.

    Jumpy? Possibly. But outwardly paranoid at any stranger he next meets? That's a long stretch.

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