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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    SethFahad's Avatar

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Charm person??? Meh...

    For what? To tell you some secret?
    Incapacitate him.Tie him up. Use a spell to make him tell the truth (zone of truth, discern lies etc.) or Intimidation. Kill him afterwards, and throw him in a shallow grave.

    Grand you access in a building?
    Incapacitate him.Tie him up. Torture him. Make fun of him. Kill him afterwards, and throw him in a shallow grave. Then proceed and enter the building.

    To sell you stuff in better price?
    Just kill the s.o.b. and "buy" everything for free!

    To help you take advantage in battle?
    Dispatch him. Mutilate his corpse. Use his bloody remains to strike fear to your enemies hearts (chew them if you must...). Slay them all. Win.

    My "Big Black Tome of Evil Do's and Don'ts for Easy Living" (c).
    Ellery: "We will not be caught by surprise."
    Entreri: "Almost everyone I've killed uttered similar last words."
    Jarlaxle: "Then I am glad once again that you are on my side."
    Entreri: "They've often said that too."

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    I could childishly show you the definition of odd in this rebuttal and explain how that pertains to the discussion at hand, but I won't.

    Jumpy? Possibly. But outwardly paranoid at any stranger he next meets? That's a long stretch.
    The distinction between "odd" and "hostile" is fairly important in this case. A "hostile" feeling would clue you in that some (probably unseen) force was trying to do something to you, and would make you more on edge than an "odd" feeling.
    Just bear with me.
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Glyphstone View Post
    Nah, Anthropomorphic Bear Werebear Bear Totem Barbarian Bear Warrior Bearlord.
    See? Was that so unbearable?

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    HalfOrcPirate

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Well, Charm person has one very useful aspect over simply killing them. It causes someone to help you out with all their ability, within whatever they're usually willing to do for friends.

    You: Charm Person!
    Enemy Wizard: *Charmed* Hey, I like you! You're all right.
    You: Cool. Now cast all your buff spells on me and my allies. Now that we're friends you have no enemies, so you don't need them for yourself!
    Enemy Wizard: Sure! *numerous buff spells*
    You: Where do you keep your spellbook by the way? We should exchange spells while I'm in town.
    Enemy Wizard: Ok! I have a decoy book filled with explosive runes locked up in my study. Pretty smart right? The real book is in an invisible bag of holding hanging from the ceiling.
    You: Thanks buddy. Hey, why don't you take a nap. I'm throwing a party later and you're invited, so you should be well rested cause we're gonna dance all night!
    Enemy Wizard: Ok. *closes eyes*
    You: Nighty night.
    Fighter Ally: *coup de grace*
    Last edited by Lysander; 2010-01-05 at 01:16 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysander View Post
    Well, Charm person has one very useful aspect over simply killing them. It causes someone to help you out with all their ability, within whatever they're usually willing to do for friends.

    You: Charm Person!
    Enemy Wizard: *Charmed* Hey, I like you! You're all right.
    You: Cool. Now cast all your buff spells on me and my allies. Now that we're friends you have no enemies, so you don't need them for yourself!
    Enemy Wizard: Sure! *numerous buff spells*
    You: Where do you keep your spellbook by the way? We should exchange spells while I'm in town.
    Enemy Wizard: Ok! I have a decoy book filled with explosive runes locked up in my study. Pretty smart right? The real book is in an invisible bag of holding hanging from the ceiling.
    You: Thanks buddy. Hey, why don't you take a nap. I'm throwing a party later and you're invited, so you should be well rested cause we're gonna dance all night!
    Enemy Wizard: Ok. *closes eyes*
    You: Nighty night.
    Fighter Ally: *coup de grace*
    Smart. And sneaky. I like it. Alot. But...
    For more straightforward types though, incapacitate him.Tie him up. Use a spell to make him tell the truth (zone of truth, discern lies etc.) or Intimidation. Kill him afterwards (using coup de grace if you like), and throw him in a shallow grave.

    But charming a wizard (high will saves) is hard, plus his has spellcraft so he knows what you are up to. And if you think you've got better DC than he has will save, then probably you've already got better spells than him...so kill him just for xp.
    Ellery: "We will not be caught by surprise."
    Entreri: "Almost everyone I've killed uttered similar last words."
    Jarlaxle: "Then I am glad once again that you are on my side."
    Entreri: "They've often said that too."

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by SethFahad View Post
    Smart. And sneaky. I like it. Alot. But...
    For more straightforward types though, incapacitate him.Tie him up. Use a spell to make him tell the truth (zone of truth, discern lies etc.) or Intimidation. Kill him afterwards (using coup de grace if you like), and throw him in a shallow grave.

    But charming a wizard (high will saves) is hard, plus his has spellcraft so he knows what you are up to. And if you think you've got better DC than he has will save, then probably you've already got better spells than him...so kill him just for xp.
    It still won't get you all the buffs, and don't Zone of Truth and Discern Lies also allow will saves?
    Last edited by Lord Thurlvin; 2010-01-05 at 01:38 AM.
    Just bear with me.
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Glyphstone View Post
    Nah, Anthropomorphic Bear Werebear Bear Totem Barbarian Bear Warrior Bearlord.
    See? Was that so unbearable?

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thurlvin View Post
    It still won't get you all the buffs, and don't Zone of Truth and Discern Lies also allow will saves?
    True. No buffs. Oh well...
    True. Will saves. Intimidate him, usually his cha is low.

    I don't disagree with you. You are right! I'm just presenting the chaotic destroyers point of view

    As for the high will save, you can allways use poison (fortitude saves are always low) to lower his wisdom score, and then cast any mind affecting spell you like.

    Just one thing. In the end... kill the bloody bastard...
    Ellery: "We will not be caught by surprise."
    Entreri: "Almost everyone I've killed uttered similar last words."
    Jarlaxle: "Then I am glad once again that you are on my side."
    Entreri: "They've often said that too."

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    Jumpy? Possibly. But outwardly paranoid at any stranger he next meets? That's a long stretch.
    Why exactly is it a long stretch?
    Avatar by Abardam.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Setra View Post
    Why exactly is it a long stretch?
    I don't think he really realises what a guard is for, and how he'd be trained in a setting where people flinging magic about is a daily occurrence.
    There's no wrong way to play. - S. John Ross

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pigkappa View Post
    My bard/wizard is in front of a guy. I cast Charm Person on that guy, and his saving throw succeeds. Now, if he isn't extremely stupid, he's just understood that I cast a spell on him, and it didn't work. Won't that make him extremely angry against me? If so, a failed Charm Person will almost always result in the contrary effect.


    Another scenario. My bard is in front of a wizard. I cast Charm Person, and the saving throw fails. The wizard is Charmed, but he rolls a Spellcraft check and understands that I cast Charm Person. His aptitude should be friendly toward me, but he knows that is because of the spell, and therefore has really good reason to be angry against me and to avoid me. How does the spell work in this case?
    Situation #1: That depends on your definition of "extremely stupid." An average peasant will feel a hostile tingle and most likely ignore it. Someone with more experience with magic/saving throws (adventurer, adept, well trained guard, anyone who has succeeded on two or three saving throws, whatever) will feel a hostile tingle, recognize it as a successful saving throw (shrugging off evil magic, close enough), and likely get suspicious. They won't know you did anything, but their opinion might lower a step anyway, depending on their personality. Anyone who actually sees you waving your arms and chanting and then feels a hostile tingle will likely blame you (more paranoid groups don't even need the hostile tingle), regardless of your involvement, however, so avoid that.

    Situation #2: The wizard knows you cast Charm Person on him. He also knows that you are his best friend. He will put his vast intellect to use finding a way to reconcile these two facts. Note that the spell gives a bonus if the wizard or his allies are being attacked, and Charm Person counts as an attack.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    i think what matters most is how 'activly' a persin resists in a will save. If it;s a case of them consiously asserting thier will ("thog does NOT like puny wizard!"/"thog knows their is no wall thier!"), then the feeling would be very hard to confuse with anything else.

    if it's just somthing they do without thinking, then they may no recognise they made a save, as Bendraesar argues ("puny wizard makes thog fuzzy as he stuggles helplessly..../"are you ignoring orcs their behind glostly wall?").
    Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
    But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
    The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
    O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.

    "Tommy", Rudyard Kipling

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    I don't think he really realises what a guard is for, and how he'd be trained in a setting where people flinging magic about is a daily occurrence.
    That is a case by case basis and a DM's choice to make a setting where a guard would more likely be against the player for no other apparent reason then the DM playing against the players.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Setra View Post
    Why exactly is it a long stretch?
    It's a long stretch that a simple "bad" feeling would make a guard up and alert about anyone who approaches him or even make his diplomatic relation drop a step. I mean, if you like DMing one dimensional characters who are always out to get your players (or your casters), that's the DMs choice.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thurlvin View Post
    The distinction between "odd" and "hostile" is fairly important in this case. A "hostile" feeling would clue you in that some (probably unseen) force was trying to do something to you, and would make you more on edge than an "odd" feeling.
    It would make you, at best, jumpy unless you were penchant to paranoia.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    That is a case by case basis and a DM's choice to make a setting where a guard would more likely be against the player for no other apparent reason then the DM playing against the players.
    The default setting is fairly high magic. Everyone but bob the commoner has probably seen magic and even bob has probably heard of it. And once again (in the next two posts) you are misconstruing what hostile means. That's why I put up a definition. It means with ill intent. If I felt a malevolent force and lived in a world with magic I would assume it was magic. Honestly. The only times I've heard people talking about feeling a malevolent force is on those ghost hunter shows. It's not a common feeling. It certainly would NOT be mistaken for insomnia or bowel problems as you suggested earlier.

    If I thought someone was trying to use magic on me I would be suspicious of everyone that I did not personally know after that. Maybe even some friends too.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenogears View Post
    The default setting is fairly high magic. Everyone but bob the commoner has probably seen magic and even bob has probably heard of it. And once again (in the next two posts) you are misconstruing what hostile means. That's why I put up a definition. It means with ill intent. If I felt a malevolent force and lived in a world with magic I would assume it was magic. Honestly. The only times I've heard people talking about feeling a malevolent force is on those ghost hunter shows. It's not a common feeling. It certainly would NOT be mistaken for insomnia or bowel problems as you suggested earlier.

    If I thought someone was trying to use magic on me I would be suspicious of everyone that I did not personally know after that. Maybe even some friends too.
    You would assume because, as a reader/player/etc. of the Dungeons and dragons setting you have read all of the spells in at least core and have a competent knowledge of how certain game concepts work. So your metagaming knowledge would taint any actual response, meaning absolutely nothing.

    And in all honesty, you can't dismiss a hostile feeling as such since you can't prove that a "hostile feeling" is so incredible that it could not be dismissed as such.

    This entire conversation all you have done is advocate a DM using a small bit of fluff to the detriment of his players with no actual solid ground to do so other then for the DM to work against his players.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    You would assume because, as a reader/player/etc. of the Dungeons and dragons setting you have read all of the spells in at least core and have a competent knowledge of how certain game concepts work. So your metagaming knowledge would taint any actual response, meaning absolutely nothing.

    And in all honesty, you can't dismiss a hostile feeling as such since you can't prove that a "hostile feeling" is so incredible that it could not be dismissed as such.

    This entire conversation all you have done is advocate a DM using a small bit of fluff to the detriment of his players with no actual solid ground to do so other then for the DM to work against his players.
    No. I would expect the players (even while not metagaming and keeping IC) to react the same way. I am not advocating the DM screwing them over. I am presenting what I feel is the most logical result of bloody well casting a mind control spell on someone in front of them.

    I can dismiss your comparisions because to call them a "hostile force" is such a twisting of the definition of the word as to render it nigh useless. Hostile. With Malice. Ill intent. I can honestly not think of any situation in real life that would make me feel a hostile force. It doesn't say a "feeling". It says a "force". This heavily implies you feel some kind of hostile presence in your mind. Damn right thats gonna make me act paranoid.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    I have to agree with the others a "hostile force" is not something that sends a shiver down your back or a case of heart burn. As it is a will save i would guess it is more like a headache that suddenly comes on and just as quickly goes away. Which is not normal. Now as to going after the stranger in front of me, no I might now, depending on the mooks int.

    It would depend on the situation the mook was in. A man standing in front of me waving his hands and chanting, yes I would think he did it, a man standing in front of me staring hard and maybe talking at me in a strange lang yes. Remember as said above a silent/still spell still Provokes an attack of Opportunity.

    So let me see I got this headache suddenly that came and went and this man is staring at me really really hard, so hard I could slap him and he would not stop me. Yea he is up to something.

    Now if there was 2 or 3 people standing around, maybe the mook might not notice the stare or if the mook had a low Int yes. But at times it is perfectly normal for mooks to react.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenogears View Post
    No. I would expect the players (even while not metagaming and keeping IC) to react the same way. I am not advocating the DM screwing them over. I am presenting what I feel is the most logical result of bloody well casting a mind control spell on someone in front of them.

    I can dismiss your comparisions because to call them a "hostile force" is such a twisting of the definition of the word as to render it nigh useless. Hostile. With Malice. Ill intent. I can honestly not think of any situation in real life that would make me feel a hostile force. It doesn't say a "feeling". It says a "force". This heavily implies you feel some kind of hostile presence in your mind. Damn right thats gonna make me act paranoid.
    A stilled spell has no somatic component to the spell. And as I said, unless the caster is being an idiot, its not too difficult to disguise the verbal component of the spell. So unless the Guard has ranks in Spellcraft or Knowledge (Arcana) he would have no reason to suspect a spell had just been cast, let alone by someone nearby.

    Cautious? Sure. Jumpy? Why not. But straight out unfriendly (the diplomancy state) to absolutely everyone you run into from that point on? Like I said, if your character is penchant to this, then that's fine. But if the DM just says so because the NPC passed their save against a PC's spell?

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmage View Post
    I have to agree with the others a "hostile force" is not something that sends a shiver down your back or a case of heart burn. As it is a will save i would guess it is more like a headache that suddenly comes on and just as quickly goes away. Which is not normal. Now as to going after the stranger in front of me, no I might now, depending on the mooks int.

    It would depend on the situation the mook was in. A man standing in front of me waving his hands and chanting, yes I would think he did it, a man standing in front of me staring hard and maybe talking at me in a strange lang yes. Remember as said above a silent/still spell still Provokes an attack of Opportunity.

    So let me see I got this headache suddenly that came and went and this man is staring at me really really hard, so hard I could slap him and he would not stop me. Yea he is up to something.

    Now if there was 2 or 3 people standing around, maybe the mook might not notice the stare or if the mook had a low Int yes. But at times it is perfectly normal for mooks to react.
    Charm Person has a casting range minimum of 25 feet and the original scenario never said the caster was directly in front of the mook, just "in front". So until further clarification is made by the OP on exactly how far "in front" of the mook he is there's no guarantee that the mook would even notice.

    Of course assuming he would take the side effect of passing the spell as a reason to be suddenly alert to everything in his surroundings.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    That is a case by case basis and a DM's choice to make a setting where a guard would more likely be against the player for no other apparent reason then the DM playing against the players.
    It's not necessarily metagaming, particularly (a) in a high-magic environment, and (b) if the PC has used such tactics before. The guards could get wind of someone charming people without knowing who.

    Also, you should try to avoid triple-posting, just edit your original reply.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    A stilled spell has no somatic component to the spell. And as I said, unless the caster is being an idiot, its not too difficult to disguise the verbal component of the spell. So unless the Guard has ranks in Spellcraft or Knowledge (Arcana) he would have no reason to suspect a spell had just been cast, let alone by someone nearby.

    Cautious? Sure. Jumpy? Why not. But straight out unfriendly (the diplomancy state) to absolutely everyone you run into from that point on? Like I said, if your character is penchant to this, then that's fine. But if the DM just says so because the NPC passed their save against a PC's spell?
    Verbal components? Depends. RAW they can be anything. It could be like OoTS where you say the spells name. That would be a dead giveaway. It could be like many wizard stories and have you loudly chant words of some dead language. That'd either make them think your casting a spell or crazy. Either way should make them less friendly. Since any option is possible it could be the wizard saying "beer please." That wouldn't draw suspicion but is an unlikely interpretation.

    Well the default example in this thread was a guard IIRC. They in fact SHOULD be unfriendly to everyone if they think that someone is casting a spell on them. They hafta be paranoid. It's their job after all. If I had designed a super trusting NPC then sure he wouldn't change much. An average one would probably drop to either indifferent or unfriendly and a paranoid one would be a hair away from hostile on everyone. Thats paranoia for you.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    You would assume because, as a reader/player/etc. of the Dungeons and dragons setting you have read all of the spells in at least core and have a competent knowledge of how certain game concepts work. So your metagaming knowledge would taint any actual response, meaning absolutely nothing.

    And in all honesty, you can't dismiss a hostile feeling as such since you can't prove that a "hostile feeling" is so incredible that it could not be dismissed as such.

    This entire conversation all you have done is advocate a DM using a small bit of fluff to the detriment of his players with no actual solid ground to do so other then for the DM to work against his players.
    I take it you've recently experienced a very bad DM who liked to screw people over?
    Yeah. Only one thing to learn from that: Don't game with douchebags.


    Anyway.

    I very much agree with Xenogears. It's like when I walk the street, and I suddenly think I see someone I know. I don't know about you, but in such cases I usually stop and look around, trying to catch another glimpse.
    Or when I've just been shopping, and the cashier makes a disadvantageous (for me) mistake, I tend to look more carefully at every receipt for a while.
    Or when I accidentally stepped on a snail (I hate killing anything, even bugs), I watch my step for the next kilometers.

    It's not often someone tries to stab me (never yet, fortunately) but if it one day happened out of the blue, I betcha I'd start looking over my shoulder for the next month.

    Alas, I'm 99,999% sure I'd have the same reaction if I suddenly felt something I'd recognize as malevolent magic. If something bad happens, you instinctively take measures to prevent it from happening again. It's human nature.


    Note, I'm not talking about the "OMG someone cast magic on me, I'D BETTER KILL EVERY STRANGER JUST TO MAKE SURE!!!!" approach.
    The "****, someone's out to get me, I'd better be careful and not trust anyone right away" works fine, too.
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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    It's not necessarily metagaming, particularly (a) in a high-magic environment, and (b) if the PC has used such tactics before. The guards could get wind of someone charming people without knowing who.

    Also, you should try to avoid triple-posting, just edit your original reply.
    A is a possible setting, but once again is not automatically assumed and needs to be clarified along with the PC's original position by the OP.

    B on the other hand is an X factor that wasn't in the original scenario.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    A is a possible setting, but once again is not automatically assumed and needs to be clarified along with the PC's original position by the OP.

    B on the other hand is an X factor that wasn't in the original scenario.
    I agree that such things should be spelled out to the players beforehand. But the mere fact that it isn't, does not mean the PCs should be rewarded for walking up to a guard in broad daylight, grinning and proceeding to charm them without fanfare. (Or more accurately with, in this case.)

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    I think that if you walk up to a guard and start chanting and waving your hands and he then feels a malevolent force in his mind which he pushes away he should assume you cast a bad spell on him.
    Or that you are a witch trying to curse him and that calls for a little lynching.

    If you cast a stilled silence spell from across the room while the guard is paying attention to another person and not you, that he might dismiss the malevolent force as paranoia (unless experienced with making saving throws against mind magic) and even if not should not be able to pin point YOU as the source (would be hilarious to do if he is speaking to someone you dislike).

    If you use a stilled but not silenced spell on someone he might think it is a spell, or he might think it is foreign language, especially dependent on how you use it (say, turn to your friend and speak the spell) and whether he has spellcraft... whether he ties his "feeling of malevolent force" to being a spell and not just him disliking your "nasty foreign tongue" depends on a variety of factors and can go either way...

    As for the whole thing about getting a wizard to buff you and your friends, give you his spellbook, etc... Just because he thinks you are best buddies doesn't mean he is stupid and not paranoid... proper responses should be "friend, I am a bit concerned here, you are scaring me, why do you want to know?" and "I am sorry best friend, but I wouldn't even tell my (non/hypothetical) wife and children where it is hidden, because it can always be an illusion or someone might rip the knowledge from their minds... what if I tell you and then someone casts charm person on you?"

    keep in mind that unreasonable demands will be refused, will require persuasion rolls, and might even break the spell if they are too unreasonable.

    The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.
    Last edited by taltamir; 2010-01-05 at 11:51 AM.
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  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Glass Mouse View Post
    I take it you've recently experienced a very bad DM who liked to screw people over?
    Yeah. Only one thing to learn from that: Don't game with douchebags.


    Anyway.

    I very much agree with Xenogears. It's like when I walk the street, and I suddenly think I see someone I know. I don't know about you, but in such cases I usually stop and look around, trying to catch another glimpse.
    Or when I've just been shopping, and the cashier makes a disadvantageous (for me) mistake, I tend to look more carefully at every receipt for a while.
    Or when I accidentally stepped on a snail (I hate killing anything, even bugs), I watch my step for the next kilometers.

    It's not often someone tries to stab me (never yet, fortunately) but if it one day happened out of the blue, I betcha I'd start looking over my shoulder for the next month.

    Alas, I'm 99,999% sure I'd have the same reaction if I suddenly felt something I'd recognize as malevolent magic. If something bad happens, you instinctively take measures to prevent it from happening again. It's human nature.


    Note, I'm not talking about the "OMG someone cast magic on me, I'D BETTER KILL EVERY STRANGER JUST TO MAKE SURE!!!!" approach.
    The "****, someone's out to get me, I'd better be careful and not trust anyone right away" works fine, too.
    But that's assuming that you can recognize the feeling as magic being cast on you. Since a hostile force is not actually defined in the rules and its not even likely that everyone will readily agree on how feeling a hostile force exactly feels, I'm going to go with Shadowmage's headache idea. A head ache is an extremely common ailment that is brought upon by a multitude of things. What suddenly must narrow all that down to being magic? And even if we'll say its a high magic environment, that must mean mages in a city are highly common and then what leads the guard to believe it must be a nearby magic user in a city that could contain dozens if not more of such entities?

  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenogears View Post
    Verbal components? Depends. RAW they can be anything. It could be like OoTS where you say the spells name. That would be a dead giveaway. It could be like many wizard stories and have you loudly chant words of some dead language. That'd either make them think your casting a spell or crazy. Either way should make them less friendly. Since any option is possible it could be the wizard saying "beer please." That wouldn't draw suspicion but is an unlikely interpretation.

    Well the default example in this thread was a guard IIRC. They in fact SHOULD be unfriendly to everyone if they think that someone is casting a spell on them. They hafta be paranoid. It's their job after all. If I had designed a super trusting NPC then sure he wouldn't change much. An average one would probably drop to either indifferent or unfriendly and a paranoid one would be a hair away from hostile on everyone. Thats paranoia for you.
    Yes, the original situation was with a guard. But whether the guard starts indifferent or unfriendly depends on the DM, but for the sake of arguement, let's say he's already unfriendly to everyone and anyone. Once again though, there is no reason that a guard must automatically think that a feeling that comes out of the blue, even a hostile one, must originate from a mystical source. He'll be wary of everything for maybe the rest of the day but if he's a guard who's not totally incompetent then this is how he should normally act so passing his will save shouldn't have him acting any different for when a PC tries to interact with him.

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    I agree that such things should be spelled out to the players beforehand. But the mere fact that it isn't, does not mean the PCs should be rewarded for walking up to a guard in broad daylight, grinning and proceeding to charm them without fanfare. (Or more accurately with, in this case.)
    Except for the fact that the actual scenario has not been fully defined by the OP. "In front" doesn't not necessarily mean directly in front of the guard. As I said earlier, Charm Person has a minimum possible range of 25 feet. So the PC could be standing down the hall or across a crowded street from the guard when he casts and fails to affect the guard.

    Of course this is but conjecture on both of our parts since the OP did not fully define the scenario.

  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    I have felt "malevolence" in my head plenty of times... insomnia, general malaise, a variety of diseases and conditions... Now, I have no experience with magic (since it doesn't exist) so I cannot tell you if it is the same feeling as making a will save...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    Except for the fact that the actual scenario has not been fully defined by the OP. "In front" doesn't not necessarily mean directly in front of the guard. As I said earlier, Charm Person has a minimum possible range of 25 feet. So the PC could be standing down the hall or across a crowded street from the guard when he casts and fails to affect the guard.

    Of course this is but conjecture on both of our parts since the OP did not fully define the scenario.
    we went beyond the exact scenario put forth by the op. rather then arguing about what the exact original scenario was; or using it to oppose discussion of other possible scenarios, lets just focus on what we think will occur in a variety of different scenarios.
    Last edited by taltamir; 2010-01-05 at 12:02 PM.
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    the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.

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    Default Re: If Charm Person fails...

    Quote Originally Posted by taltamir View Post
    I think that if you walk up to a guard and start chanting and waving your hands and he then feels a malevolent force in his mind which he pushes away he should assume you cast a bad spell on him.
    Or that you are a witch trying to curse him and that calls for a little lynching.

    If you cast a stilled silence spell from across the room while the guard is paying attention to another person and not you, that he might dismiss the malevolent force as paranoia (unless experienced with making saving throws against mind magic) and even if not should not be able to pin point YOU as the source (would be hilarious to do if he is speaking to someone you dislike).

    If you use a stilled but not silenced spell on someone he might think it is a spell, or he might think it is foreign language, especially dependent on how you use it (say, turn to your friend and speak the spell) and whether he has spellcraft... whether he ties his "feeling of malevolent force" to being a spell and not just him disliking your "nasty foreign tongue" depends on a variety of factors and can go either way...
    I've really already gone over or brought up these points before already.

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