Results 61 to 90 of 125
Thread: If Charm Person fails...
-
2010-01-05, 12:59 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
- Location
- Athens, GR
- Gender
Re: If Charm Person fails...
Charm person??? Meh...
For what? To tell you some secret?
Incapacitate him.Tie him up. Use a spell to make him tell the truth (zone of truth, discern lies etc.) or Intimidation. Kill him afterwards, and throw him in a shallow grave.
Grand you access in a building?
Incapacitate him.Tie him up. Torture him. Make fun of him. Kill him afterwards, and throw him in a shallow grave. Then proceed and enter the building.
To sell you stuff in better price?
Just kill the s.o.b. and "buy" everything for free!
To help you take advantage in battle?
Dispatch him. Mutilate his corpse. Use his bloody remains to strike fear to your enemies hearts (chew them if you must...). Slay them all. Win.
My "Big Black Tome of Evil Do's and Don'ts for Easy Living" (c).Ellery: "We will not be caught by surprise."
Entreri: "Almost everyone I've killed uttered similar last words."
Jarlaxle: "Then I am glad once again that you are on my side."
Entreri: "They've often said that too."
-
2010-01-05, 01:13 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
- Location
- Far Realm
- Gender
Re: If Charm Person fails...
-
2010-01-05, 01:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2005
- Location
Re: If Charm Person fails...
Well, Charm person has one very useful aspect over simply killing them. It causes someone to help you out with all their ability, within whatever they're usually willing to do for friends.
You: Charm Person!
Enemy Wizard: *Charmed* Hey, I like you! You're all right.
You: Cool. Now cast all your buff spells on me and my allies. Now that we're friends you have no enemies, so you don't need them for yourself!
Enemy Wizard: Sure! *numerous buff spells*
You: Where do you keep your spellbook by the way? We should exchange spells while I'm in town.
Enemy Wizard: Ok! I have a decoy book filled with explosive runes locked up in my study. Pretty smart right? The real book is in an invisible bag of holding hanging from the ceiling.
You: Thanks buddy. Hey, why don't you take a nap. I'm throwing a party later and you're invited, so you should be well rested cause we're gonna dance all night!
Enemy Wizard: Ok. *closes eyes*
You: Nighty night.
Fighter Ally: *coup de grace*Last edited by Lysander; 2010-01-05 at 01:16 AM.
-
2010-01-05, 01:29 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
- Location
- Athens, GR
- Gender
Re: If Charm Person fails...
Smart. And sneaky. I like it. Alot. But...
For more straightforward types though, incapacitate him.Tie him up. Use a spell to make him tell the truth (zone of truth, discern lies etc.) or Intimidation. Kill him afterwards (using coup de grace if you like), and throw him in a shallow grave.
But charming a wizard (high will saves) is hard, plus his has spellcraft so he knows what you are up to. And if you think you've got better DC than he has will save, then probably you've already got better spells than him...so kill him just for xp.Ellery: "We will not be caught by surprise."
Entreri: "Almost everyone I've killed uttered similar last words."
Jarlaxle: "Then I am glad once again that you are on my side."
Entreri: "They've often said that too."
-
2010-01-05, 01:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
- Location
- Far Realm
- Gender
-
2010-01-05, 01:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
- Location
- Athens, GR
- Gender
Re: If Charm Person fails...
True. No buffs. Oh well...
True. Will saves. Intimidate him, usually his cha is low.
I don't disagree with you. You are right! I'm just presenting the chaotic destroyers point of view
As for the high will save, you can allways use poison (fortitude saves are always low) to lower his wisdom score, and then cast any mind affecting spell you like.
Just one thing. In the end... kill the bloody bastard...Ellery: "We will not be caught by surprise."
Entreri: "Almost everyone I've killed uttered similar last words."
Jarlaxle: "Then I am glad once again that you are on my side."
Entreri: "They've often said that too."
-
2010-01-05, 02:51 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- Kentucky
-
2010-01-05, 08:09 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
- Location
- The Land of Angles
-
2010-01-05, 09:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
Re: If Charm Person fails...
Situation #1: That depends on your definition of "extremely stupid." An average peasant will feel a hostile tingle and most likely ignore it. Someone with more experience with magic/saving throws (adventurer, adept, well trained guard, anyone who has succeeded on two or three saving throws, whatever) will feel a hostile tingle, recognize it as a successful saving throw (shrugging off evil magic, close enough), and likely get suspicious. They won't know you did anything, but their opinion might lower a step anyway, depending on their personality. Anyone who actually sees you waving your arms and chanting and then feels a hostile tingle will likely blame you (more paranoid groups don't even need the hostile tingle), regardless of your involvement, however, so avoid that.
Situation #2: The wizard knows you cast Charm Person on him. He also knows that you are his best friend. He will put his vast intellect to use finding a way to reconcile these two facts. Note that the spell gives a bonus if the wizard or his allies are being attacked, and Charm Person counts as an attack.
-
2010-01-05, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- kendal, england
- Gender
Re: If Charm Person fails...
i think what matters most is how 'activly' a persin resists in a will save. If it;s a case of them consiously asserting thier will ("thog does NOT like puny wizard!"/"thog knows their is no wall thier!"), then the feeling would be very hard to confuse with anything else.
if it's just somthing they do without thinking, then they may no recognise they made a save, as Bendraesar argues ("puny wizard makes thog fuzzy as he stuggles helplessly..../"are you ignoring orcs their behind glostly wall?").Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
-
2010-01-05, 10:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Gender
-
2010-01-05, 10:52 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Gender
Re: If Charm Person fails...
It's a long stretch that a simple "bad" feeling would make a guard up and alert about anyone who approaches him or even make his diplomatic relation drop a step. I mean, if you like DMing one dimensional characters who are always out to get your players (or your casters), that's the DMs choice.
-
2010-01-05, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Gender
-
2010-01-05, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: If Charm Person fails...
The default setting is fairly high magic. Everyone but bob the commoner has probably seen magic and even bob has probably heard of it. And once again (in the next two posts) you are misconstruing what hostile means. That's why I put up a definition. It means with ill intent. If I felt a malevolent force and lived in a world with magic I would assume it was magic. Honestly. The only times I've heard people talking about feeling a malevolent force is on those ghost hunter shows. It's not a common feeling. It certainly would NOT be mistaken for insomnia or bowel problems as you suggested earlier.
If I thought someone was trying to use magic on me I would be suspicious of everyone that I did not personally know after that. Maybe even some friends too.
-
2010-01-05, 11:04 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Gender
Re: If Charm Person fails...
You would assume because, as a reader/player/etc. of the Dungeons and dragons setting you have read all of the spells in at least core and have a competent knowledge of how certain game concepts work. So your metagaming knowledge would taint any actual response, meaning absolutely nothing.
And in all honesty, you can't dismiss a hostile feeling as such since you can't prove that a "hostile feeling" is so incredible that it could not be dismissed as such.
This entire conversation all you have done is advocate a DM using a small bit of fluff to the detriment of his players with no actual solid ground to do so other then for the DM to work against his players.
-
2010-01-05, 11:10 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: If Charm Person fails...
No. I would expect the players (even while not metagaming and keeping IC) to react the same way. I am not advocating the DM screwing them over. I am presenting what I feel is the most logical result of bloody well casting a mind control spell on someone in front of them.
I can dismiss your comparisions because to call them a "hostile force" is such a twisting of the definition of the word as to render it nigh useless. Hostile. With Malice. Ill intent. I can honestly not think of any situation in real life that would make me feel a hostile force. It doesn't say a "feeling". It says a "force". This heavily implies you feel some kind of hostile presence in your mind. Damn right thats gonna make me act paranoid.
-
2010-01-05, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: If Charm Person fails...
I have to agree with the others a "hostile force" is not something that sends a shiver down your back or a case of heart burn. As it is a will save i would guess it is more like a headache that suddenly comes on and just as quickly goes away. Which is not normal. Now as to going after the stranger in front of me, no I might now, depending on the mooks int.
It would depend on the situation the mook was in. A man standing in front of me waving his hands and chanting, yes I would think he did it, a man standing in front of me staring hard and maybe talking at me in a strange lang yes. Remember as said above a silent/still spell still Provokes an attack of Opportunity.
So let me see I got this headache suddenly that came and went and this man is staring at me really really hard, so hard I could slap him and he would not stop me. Yea he is up to something.
Now if there was 2 or 3 people standing around, maybe the mook might not notice the stare or if the mook had a low Int yes. But at times it is perfectly normal for mooks to react.
-
2010-01-05, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Gender
Re: If Charm Person fails...
A stilled spell has no somatic component to the spell. And as I said, unless the caster is being an idiot, its not too difficult to disguise the verbal component of the spell. So unless the Guard has ranks in Spellcraft or Knowledge (Arcana) he would have no reason to suspect a spell had just been cast, let alone by someone nearby.
Cautious? Sure. Jumpy? Why not. But straight out unfriendly (the diplomancy state) to absolutely everyone you run into from that point on? Like I said, if your character is penchant to this, then that's fine. But if the DM just says so because the NPC passed their save against a PC's spell?
-
2010-01-05, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Gender
Re: If Charm Person fails...
Charm Person has a casting range minimum of 25 feet and the original scenario never said the caster was directly in front of the mook, just "in front". So until further clarification is made by the OP on exactly how far "in front" of the mook he is there's no guarantee that the mook would even notice.
Of course assuming he would take the side effect of passing the spell as a reason to be suddenly alert to everything in his surroundings.
-
2010-01-05, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- Tampa, FL
- Gender
Re: If Charm Person fails...
It's not necessarily metagaming, particularly (a) in a high-magic environment, and (b) if the PC has used such tactics before. The guards could get wind of someone charming people without knowing who.
Also, you should try to avoid triple-posting, just edit your original reply.
-
2010-01-05, 11:38 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: If Charm Person fails...
Verbal components? Depends. RAW they can be anything. It could be like OoTS where you say the spells name. That would be a dead giveaway. It could be like many wizard stories and have you loudly chant words of some dead language. That'd either make them think your casting a spell or crazy. Either way should make them less friendly. Since any option is possible it could be the wizard saying "beer please." That wouldn't draw suspicion but is an unlikely interpretation.
Well the default example in this thread was a guard IIRC. They in fact SHOULD be unfriendly to everyone if they think that someone is casting a spell on them. They hafta be paranoid. It's their job after all. If I had designed a super trusting NPC then sure he wouldn't change much. An average one would probably drop to either indifferent or unfriendly and a paranoid one would be a hair away from hostile on everyone. Thats paranoia for you.
-
2010-01-05, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
- Location
- The Icy North
- Gender
Re: If Charm Person fails...
I take it you've recently experienced a very bad DM who liked to screw people over?
Yeah. Only one thing to learn from that: Don't game with douchebags.
Anyway.
I very much agree with Xenogears. It's like when I walk the street, and I suddenly think I see someone I know. I don't know about you, but in such cases I usually stop and look around, trying to catch another glimpse.
Or when I've just been shopping, and the cashier makes a disadvantageous (for me) mistake, I tend to look more carefully at every receipt for a while.
Or when I accidentally stepped on a snail (I hate killing anything, even bugs), I watch my step for the next kilometers.
It's not often someone tries to stab me (never yet, fortunately) but if it one day happened out of the blue, I betcha I'd start looking over my shoulder for the next month.
Alas, I'm 99,999% sure I'd have the same reaction if I suddenly felt something I'd recognize as malevolent magic. If something bad happens, you instinctively take measures to prevent it from happening again. It's human nature.
Note, I'm not talking about the "OMG someone cast magic on me, I'D BETTER KILL EVERY STRANGER JUST TO MAKE SURE!!!!" approach.
The "****, someone's out to get me, I'd better be careful and not trust anyone right away" works fine, too.Spoiler
Challenge badge, courtesy of HeadlessMermaid.
Avatar courtesy of the talented Neoriceisgood. Features Pumpkin from my webcomic.
-
2010-01-05, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Gender
-
2010-01-05, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- Tampa, FL
- Gender
Re: If Charm Person fails...
I agree that such things should be spelled out to the players beforehand. But the mere fact that it isn't, does not mean the PCs should be rewarded for walking up to a guard in broad daylight, grinning and proceeding to charm them without fanfare. (Or more accurately with, in this case.)
-
2010-01-05, 11:48 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
- Gender
Re: If Charm Person fails...
I think that if you walk up to a guard and start chanting and waving your hands and he then feels a malevolent force in his mind which he pushes away he should assume you cast a bad spell on him.
Or that you are a witch trying to curse him and that calls for a little lynching.
If you cast a stilled silence spell from across the room while the guard is paying attention to another person and not you, that he might dismiss the malevolent force as paranoia (unless experienced with making saving throws against mind magic) and even if not should not be able to pin point YOU as the source (would be hilarious to do if he is speaking to someone you dislike).
If you use a stilled but not silenced spell on someone he might think it is a spell, or he might think it is foreign language, especially dependent on how you use it (say, turn to your friend and speak the spell) and whether he has spellcraft... whether he ties his "feeling of malevolent force" to being a spell and not just him disliking your "nasty foreign tongue" depends on a variety of factors and can go either way...
As for the whole thing about getting a wizard to buff you and your friends, give you his spellbook, etc... Just because he thinks you are best buddies doesn't mean he is stupid and not paranoid... proper responses should be "friend, I am a bit concerned here, you are scaring me, why do you want to know?" and "I am sorry best friend, but I wouldn't even tell my (non/hypothetical) wife and children where it is hidden, because it can always be an illusion or someone might rip the knowledge from their minds... what if I tell you and then someone casts charm person on you?"
keep in mind that unreasonable demands will be refused, will require persuasion rolls, and might even break the spell if they are too unreasonable.
The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.Last edited by taltamir; 2010-01-05 at 11:51 AM.
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
-
2010-01-05, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Gender
Re: If Charm Person fails...
But that's assuming that you can recognize the feeling as magic being cast on you. Since a hostile force is not actually defined in the rules and its not even likely that everyone will readily agree on how feeling a hostile force exactly feels, I'm going to go with Shadowmage's headache idea. A head ache is an extremely common ailment that is brought upon by a multitude of things. What suddenly must narrow all that down to being magic? And even if we'll say its a high magic environment, that must mean mages in a city are highly common and then what leads the guard to believe it must be a nearby magic user in a city that could contain dozens if not more of such entities?
-
2010-01-05, 11:58 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Gender
Re: If Charm Person fails...
Yes, the original situation was with a guard. But whether the guard starts indifferent or unfriendly depends on the DM, but for the sake of arguement, let's say he's already unfriendly to everyone and anyone. Once again though, there is no reason that a guard must automatically think that a feeling that comes out of the blue, even a hostile one, must originate from a mystical source. He'll be wary of everything for maybe the rest of the day but if he's a guard who's not totally incompetent then this is how he should normally act so passing his will save shouldn't have him acting any different for when a PC tries to interact with him.
-
2010-01-05, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Gender
Re: If Charm Person fails...
Except for the fact that the actual scenario has not been fully defined by the OP. "In front" doesn't not necessarily mean directly in front of the guard. As I said earlier, Charm Person has a minimum possible range of 25 feet. So the PC could be standing down the hall or across a crowded street from the guard when he casts and fails to affect the guard.
Of course this is but conjecture on both of our parts since the OP did not fully define the scenario.
-
2010-01-05, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
- Gender
Re: If Charm Person fails...
I have felt "malevolence" in my head plenty of times... insomnia, general malaise, a variety of diseases and conditions... Now, I have no experience with magic (since it doesn't exist) so I cannot tell you if it is the same feeling as making a will save...
we went beyond the exact scenario put forth by the op. rather then arguing about what the exact original scenario was; or using it to oppose discussion of other possible scenarios, lets just focus on what we think will occur in a variety of different scenarios.Last edited by taltamir; 2010-01-05 at 12:02 PM.
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
-
2010-01-05, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Gender