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    Default [ToB] Pragmatist (PrC for mundane fighters)

    Pragmatist
    It's not about art; it's not about enlightenment; it's not about glory. It's about going out onto a battlefield with the enemy, and you both do your best to kill the other. It's about coming out of that alive.

    Pragmatists despise no weapon or technique so long as it works. They take a very hard-headed approach to battle, caring little for the ninefold path's beauty or mystery but much for its effectiveness. Crusaders, Swordsages and Warblades look down on them as cynical, crude and cowardly, respectively. Pragmatists look down on them right back as crazy fanatics, naive theorists and foolish glory-hounds destined for early graves. Even so, most pragmatists were once Warblades or Swordsages (much more rarely Crusaders) themselves, and often see those who remained in those classes as children who have not yet learned how harsh the real world is. Pragmatists are almost always veterans, and can be found in the armies of all nations where the sublime way is well known.

    It is not to say that Pragmatists do not believe in causes worth dying for: some do and some don't. But those that do prefer causes worth living for, and none believe in dying stupidly.

    Prerequisites: BAB 5, Combat Expertise, 1 counter maneuver and 1 strike maneuver.

    HP: d10
    Skills: 4+int
    Class skills: Balance, Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge(local), Knowledge(nature), Listen, Martial Lore, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot, Tumble
    Martial Paths: Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Setting Sun
    Proficiency: Pragmatists are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, armor, and shields, including tower shields.

    {table=head]BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|features|man k|stances|man r
    1|2|2|0|endurance, evasion|0|0|1
    2|3|3|0|bonus feat|0|0|0
    3|3|3|1||1|1|1
    4|4|4|1|mettle, rational fear|0|0|0
    5|4|4|1|bonus feat|0|0|1
    6|5|5|2||1|1|0
    7|5|5|2|restore counter|0|0|1
    8|6|6|2|bonus feat|0|0|0
    9|6|6|3| |1|1|1
    10|7|7|3|strike on strike|0|0|0[/table]

    Endurance (ex): gain Endurance as a bonus feat

    Evasion (ex): see Rogue. If you already have evasion, gain improved evasion (again, see Rogue).

    Bonus Feat: A Pragmatist may select bonus feats from the fighter and warblade lists.

    Mettle (ex): When a pragmatist successfully makes a fort or will save that reduces a harmful effect (e.g. a spell with a save of "fortitude partial"), the effect is negated entirely.

    Rational Fear (ex): A pragmatist is accustomed to fear, and channels it into things that will actually provide safety. If you would normally become Shaken, you instead are forced to use combat expertise for at least 2 points on every attack. If you would normally become frightened or panicked, you instead have the choice of fleeing (by whatever means you judge safest), hiding, surrendering, or some combination thereof. If you would become cowering, you may instead hide.

    Restore Counter (ex): All expended counter maneuvers are automatically readied at the start of your turn in combat. Outside of combat, they ready themselves six seconds after being used.

    Strike on Strike (ex): When you make a full attack that is not part of a martial maneuver, you may replace any or all of the attacks with strike maneuvers (each maneuver must consist of making a single melee attack with additional benefits). The maneuvers are expended normally.

    {Edit: added a few things I forgot, and some formatting, and some feedback}
    Last edited by dspeyer; 2010-01-09 at 12:59 AM.
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    Default Re: [ToB] Pragmatist (PrC for mundane fighters)

    First, I'm not sure why you made the Mettle ability Fort-only; it's generally considered a weaker ability than Evasion even when it is both Fort and Will, because there are relatively few Fort or Will partial effects out there. But if you insist, don't call it Mettle; that's just confusing.

    Second, if Crusaders, Swordsages, and Warblades all look down on the Pragmatist, who enters the class?

    Third, Counter Restore is quite powerful (but then Counters can be hard to use so probably not the end of the world), and Strike on Strike is extremely powerful, unless you require that ever attack be a Strike (in which case it may be impossible to use; that's a lot of Strikes to have readied). The two synergize pretty well, though.

    Finally, I'm not sure about the name. I dunno, Veteran sounds more appropriate to me.

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    Default Re: [ToB] Pragmatist (PrC for mundane fighters)

    If you are intending an entry without the ToB classes, I suggest adding a recovery mechanic as one of the classes abilities as only being able to use your abilities once in an encounter gets pretty lame.

    Also, make your table like this so it looks nicer. You can do this by quoting, then copying and pasting.
    Bolding the class abilitiy names is also another good one as it makes reading them better. You can see and example of this below with Mettle.

    {table=head]BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Features|Man K|Stances|Man R
    1|2|2|0|Endurance, Evasion|0|0|1
    2|3|3|0|Bonus Feat|0|0|0
    3|3|3|1||1|1|1
    4|4|4|1|Mettle, Rational Fear|0|0|0
    5|4|4|1|Bonus Feat|0|0|1
    6|5|5|2||1|1|0
    7|5|5|2|Restore Counter|0|0|1
    8|6|6|2|Bonus Feat|0|0|0
    9|6|6|3| |1|1|1
    10|7|7|3|Strike on Strike|0|0|0[/table]

    Other than that, I suggest changing Mettle as Dragoon said like this.

    Mettle (Ex): When a pragmatist successfully makes a fort save or will save that reduces a harmful effect (e.g. a spell with a save of "fortitude partial" or "will partial"), the effect is negated entirely.
    Last edited by Dante & Vergil; 2010-01-08 at 01:58 PM.

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    Default Re: [ToB] Pragmatist (PrC for mundane fighters)

    Generally, a PrC would not need to list a recovery mechanic - you use the recovery mechanic of your entry class, or none if you got the maneuvers from feats.

    That said, I do agree with that table, except you should say +2, +3, etc, rather than just 2, 3, since the PrC is specifically adding BAB/saves/maneuvers.

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    Default Re: [ToB] Pragmatist (PrC for mundane fighters)

    I've done the formatting, thanks for the tips.

    I changed mettle to include will saves. It seemed more reasonable to me to have experienced fighters develop extra-tough bodies than extra-tough minds. On the other hand, it seems to be causing confusion, and "will partial" effects are really rare.

    As for who enters it, Warblades and Swordsages who have had a change in perspective, of course! There's nothing you can look down on as harshly as what you once were.

    As for power, I think the early levels are a bit weak, so there's some nice stuff at the end. Strike-on-strike can do a huge amount of damage, but it also runs through your maneuvers pretty fast. Besides, you'll be at least 15th level -- gotta keep up with the wizards somehow.
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    Default Re: [ToB] Pragmatist (PrC for mundane fighters)

    Hi there! I'm loving the idea of this class, but the name, oy.

    If it wasn't too much of an intrusion, I made a mock-up of a few small changes to the class, namely, just a new name and a few fill-in abilities.

    I'm not the biggest fan of dead levels.

    Anyhow, without further adieu:

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    Roughneck

    It's not about art; it's not about enlightenment; it's not about glory. It's about going out onto a battlefield with the enemy, and you both do your best to kill the other. It's about coming out of that alive.

    A roughneck despises no weapon or technique so long as it works. They take a very hardheaded approach to battle, caring little for the nine-fold path's beauty or mystery but much for its effectiveness. Crusaders, Swordsages and Warblades look down on them as cynical, crude and cowardly, respectively. Roughnecks look down on them right back as crazy fanatics, naive theorists and foolish glory-hounds destined for early graves. Even so, most roughnecks were once Warblades or Swordsages (much more rarely Crusaders) themselves, and often see those who remained in those classes as children who have not yet learned how harsh the real world is. Roughnecks are almost always veterans, and can be found in the armies of all nations where the sublime way is well known.

    It is not to say that roughnecks do not believe in causes worth dying for: some do and some don't. But those that do prefer causes worth living for, and none believe in dying stupidly.

    Prerequisites: BAB 5, Combat Expertise, 1 counter maneuver and 1 strike maneuver known.

    HD: d10
    Skills: 4+int
    Class skills: Balance, Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nature), Listen, Martial Lore, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot, Tumble
    Martial Paths: Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Setting Sun
    Proficiencies: Pragmatists are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, armor, and shields, including tower shields.
    Roughneck

    It's not about art; it's not about enlightenment; it's not about glory. It's about going out onto a battlefield with the enemy, and you both do your best to kill the other. It's about coming out of that alive.

    A roughneck despises no weapon or technique so long as it works. They take a very hardheaded approach to battle, caring little for the nine-fold path's beauty or mystery but much for its effectiveness. Crusaders, Swordsages and Warblades look down on them as cynical, crude and cowardly, respectively. Roughnecks look down on them right back as crazy fanatics, naive theorists and foolish glory-hounds destined for early graves. Even so, most roughnecks were once Warblades or Swordsages (much more rarely Crusaders) themselves, and often see those who remained in those classes as children who have not yet learned how harsh the real world is. Roughnecks are almost always veterans, and can be found in the armies of all nations where the sublime way is well known.

    It is not to say that roughnecks do not believe in causes worth dying for: some do and some don't. But those that do prefer causes worth living for, and none believe in dying stupidly.

    Prerequisites: BAB 5, Combat Expertise, 1 counter maneuver and 1 strike maneuver known.

    HD: d10
    Skills: 4+int
    Class skills: Balance, Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nature), Listen, Martial Lore, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot, Tumble
    Martial Paths: Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Setting Sun
    Proficiencies: Pragmatists are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, armor, and shields, including tower shields.

    BAB Fort Ref Will Features Maneuvers Known Stances Maneuvers Readied
    1 2 2 0 Endurance, Evasion 0 0 1
    2 3 3 0 Bonus Feat 0 0 0
    3 3 3 1 Uncanny Dodge 1 1 1
    4 4 4 1 Mettle, Tempered Resolve 0 0 0
    5 4 4 1 Bonus Feat 0 0 1
    6 5 5 2 Imp. Uncanny Dodge 1 1 0
    7 5 5 2 Countermeasures 0 0 1
    8 6 6 2 Bonus Feat 0 0 0
    9 6 6 3 Diehard 1 1 1
    10 7 7 3 Swift Strike 0 0 0

    Endurance (Ex): Gain Endurance as a bonus feat

    Evasion (Ex): See Rogue. If you already have evasion, gain improved evasion (again, see Rogue).

    Bonus Feat (Ex): A roughneck may select bonus feats from the fighter and warblade lists.

    Diehard (Ex):: As feat

    Uncanny Dodge (Ex): As Barbarian

    Imp. Uncanny Dodge (Ex): As Barbarian

    Mettle (Ex): When a pragmatist successfully makes a fort or will save that reduces a harmful effect (e.g. a spell with a save of "fortitude partial"), the effect is negated entirely.

    Tempered Resolve (Ex): A roughneck is accustomed to fear, and channels it into things that will actually provide safety. If you would normally become shaken, you instead are forced to use combat expertise for at least 2 points on every attack. If you would normally become frightened or panicked, you instead have the choice of fleeing (by whatever means you judge safest), hiding, surrendering, or some combination thereof. If you would become cowering, you may instead hide.

    Counter-measures (Ex): All expended counter maneuvers are automatically readied at the start of your turn in combat. Outside of combat, they ready themselves six seconds after being used.

    Swift Strike (Ex): When you make a full attack that is not part of a martial maneuver, you may replace any or all of the attacks with strike maneuvers (each maneuver must consist of making a single melee attack with additional benefits). The maneuvers are expended normally.

    Endurance (Ex): Gain Endurance as a bonus feat

    Evasion (Ex): See Rogue. If you already have evasion, gain improved evasion (again, see Rogue).

    Bonus Feat (Ex): A roughneck may select bonus feats from the fighter and warblade lists.

    Diehard (Ex):: As feat

    Uncanny Dodge (Ex): As Barbarian

    Imp. Uncanny Dodge (Ex): As Barbarian


    Mettle (Ex): When a pragmatist successfully makes a fort save or will save that reduces a harmful effect (e.g. a spell with a save of "fortitude partial" or "will partial"), the effect is negated entirely.

    Tempered Resolve (Ex): A roughneck is accustomed to fear, and channels it into things that will actually provide safety. If you would normally become shaken, you instead are forced to use combat expertise for at least 2 points on every attack. If you would normally become frightened or panicked, you instead have the choice of fleeing (by whatever means you judge safest), hiding, surrendering, or some combination thereof. If you would become cowering, you may instead hide.

    Counter-measures (Ex): All expended counter maneuvers are automatically readied at the start of your turn in combat. Outside of combat, they ready themselves six seconds after being used.

    Swift Strike (Ex): When you make a full attack that is not part of a martial maneuver, you may replace any or all of the attacks with strike maneuvers (each maneuver must consist of making a single melee attack with additional benefits). The maneuvers are expended normally.

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    Default Re: [ToB] Pragmatist (PrC for mundane fighters)

    I like "Rational Fear". And the name has the sort of straight-forward ugliness that this class evokes.

    Strike on Strike is probably a one turn kill if done anything like right. Or, maybe I made "No Contradictions" from my "True Master of Nine". It was approximately the same thing, but only two strikes (which had to be from separate disciplines), the rest normal attacks, didn't have to be melee (you could do Inferno Blast (the 9th level Desert Wind Strike) if you liked, but the DC might be tanked if you used a later attack in the sequence).
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2010-01-09 at 10:30 PM.
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    Default Re: [ToB] Pragmatist (PrC for mundane fighters)

    Wow, people really hate the name. I'll think of something else. Pragmatist is the trope name, but I guess tropes aren't classes.

    Roughneck has a nice sound, and the right sort of ugliness, but it carries overtones of incompetence, at least to my ear.

    As for dead levels, a maneuver and a stance isn't dead.
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    Default Re: [ToB] Pragmatist (PrC for mundane fighters)

    Quote Originally Posted by dspeyer View Post
    Wow, people really hate the name. I'll think of something else. Pragmatist is the trope name, but I guess tropes aren't classes.
    Hmm, how about something like "Pragmatic Warrior?"

    Also, prettier table:

    {table=head]BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special Features|Maneuvers Known|Stances Known|Maneuvers Readied
    1|2|2|0|Endurance, Evasion|0|0|1
    2|3|3|0|Bonus feat|0|0|0
    3|3|3|1||1|1|1
    4|4|4|1|Mettle, Rational fear|0|0|0
    5|4|4|1|Bonus feat|0|0|1
    6|5|5|2||1|1|0
    7|5|5|2|Restore counter|0|0|1
    8|6|6|2|Bonus feat|0|0|0
    9|6|6|3| |1|1|1
    10|7|7|3|Strike on Strike|0|0|0[/table]

    There seems to be very little here that actually fits with the fluff. Sure, they get good at countering and such but that's not very much pragmatic so much as just a good combat style. Maybe the saves of any maneuver they use are increased when attacking opponents which are flanked or denied their dex bonus? That way it is more thematically appropriate (they use maneuvers well in a pragmatic but not necessarily honorable way) but provides a benefit that is more unique than just sneak attack? Since this PRC isn't that powerful, adding this wouldn't hurt much. Maybe a +1 bonus at 3rd level, +2 at 6th and +3 at 9? That's a regular progression and hits three levels with just maneuvers gained.
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    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

    The Narrow Bridge
    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



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    Default Re: [ToB] Pragmatist (PrC for mundane fighters)

    You have a point. My original thought was that the bonus feats supplied a plain, disreputable style of fighting, but looking back that's kind of weak. I do think the defensive focus is appropriate for anyone who completely rejects the idea of a glorious death.

    Adding Oncoming Storm should help. That's trickery-focused. Maybe poison use as well?
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    Default Re: [ToB] Pragmatist (PrC for mundane fighters)

    Though the name 'Pragmatist' doesn't strike me as odd or outright bad, it would make more sense for a Rogue or Wizard-based prestige class, so I would suggest something else, Veteran or War Veteran, perhaps, to second that idea.

    Good idea, by the way, but you may want to fill those empty levels with some more survival-themed abilities, to make it more interesting.
    Last edited by Cespenar; 2010-02-21 at 02:31 PM.
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    Default Re: [ToB] Pragmatist (PrC for mundane fighters)

    I like the class. Rational Fear is an awesome ability in terms of flavor, but I think it's underpowered. There are plenty of ways to get fear immunity or resistance outright, and it relies on your enemy using a fear attack. I'd up the benefits of Rational Fear so that it's a clearly good thing when you get targeted with a fear effect.

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    Default Re: [ToB] Pragmatist (PrC for mundane fighters)

    Quote Originally Posted by Merk View Post
    I like the class. Rational Fear is an awesome ability in terms of flavor, but I think it's underpowered. There are plenty of ways to get fear immunity or resistance outright, and it relies on your enemy using a fear attack. I'd up the benefits of Rational Fear so that it's a clearly good thing when you get targeted with a fear effect.
    Because it IS so flavorful, I would consider adding another ability at that level rather than changing it.
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    Default Re: [ToB] Pragmatist (PrC for mundane fighters)

    If this is intended for non-TOB classes to get in on the fun, you should use Summative listings of the Manoeuvre and Stance totals. Frankly, the way it's done normally is unhelpful anyway, but here, it just looks out of place.

    You'll need a recovery mechanic too, possibly something unique to the class, simply because it's supposed to be about [as i read it] experience rather than training teaching you manoeuvres, so the flourishing or meditating don't really make sense and the Divine Inspiration one?

    Bit random...worked great on a Swashbuckler i saw once. Class failed because the core TOB disciplines really didn't suit the idea though.

    Keep honing, just remember, it's not really a dead level if there is manoeuvre upgrading [preferably in 2 areas].
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    Default Re: [ToB] Pragmatist (PrC for mundane fighters)

    I would recommend adding at least one of the homebrew disciplines that focus on ranged combat... hit and run tactics can be very pragmatic against slower foes, or while the enemy closes range.
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    Default Re: [ToB] Pragmatist (PrC for mundane fighters)

    Ranged: I like it. Nothing like just shooting a master swordsman.

    Maybe a related power: sheath you current weapon(s) and draw new one(s) as a single swift action. Swapping a bow for a sword is a real pain otherwise. Not sure what level to add this at.
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    Default Re: [ToB] Pragmatist (PrC for mundane fighters)

    Quote Originally Posted by dspeyer View Post
    Ranged: I like it. Nothing like just shooting a master swordsman.

    Maybe a related power: sheath you current weapon(s) and draw new one(s) as a single swift action. Swapping a bow for a sword is a real pain otherwise. Not sure what level to add this at.
    There are feats and class abilities that allow one to do extra damage if you are drawing a weapon (In Oriental Adventures I believe) that could likely general "sheathing/drawing" highly abusable. If the weapon drawn has to be a ranged one that could be ok.
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    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

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    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



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    Default Re: [ToB] Pragmatist (PrC for mundane fighters)

    Yeah, there is. It's a skill: iaijutsu focus. Would it be too ugly if I just said "you cannot use this with iaijutsu focus"? It would even make sense: if you're drawing in a rush, you're not doing it elegantly and mystically.
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    Default Re: [ToB] Pragmatist (PrC for mundane fighters)

    Quote Originally Posted by dspeyer View Post
    Yeah, there is. It's a skill: iaijutsu focus. Would it be too ugly if I just said "you cannot use this with iaijutsu focus"? It would even make sense: if you're drawing in a rush, you're not doing it elegantly and mystically.
    Yeah. That makes sense. And saying you can't do it elegantly sort of fits with the general flavor of the class.
    Last edited by JoshuaZ; 2010-02-22 at 12:17 AM.
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    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

    The Narrow Bridge
    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



    Worthwhile links:

    Age of Warriors

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    Default Re: [ToB] Pragmatist (PrC for mundane fighters)

    Yeah just say it doesn't work with Iajatsu (or similar things, not that I can think of any, but it is always good to cover as much as possible, especially when you start considering combinations with other homebrews), and it is the shift from a ranged weapon to a melee one that is most critical to have smooth in most fights.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2010-02-22 at 02:29 AM.
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    Power Rangers:"BIG TWIST!!" (working title) IC OOC Active Map:None.
    For everything else (including my extensive homebrew) see: Full list of Homebrew.
    My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.

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