D&D 3.5 tiers

[Urpriest]

My point, which was admittedly very unstated, was if there were a Dragon Shaman in Chief's party, then no combat actions(standard/move) would've been needed to stabilize him. A significant improvement on the method they used, which was to roll heal checks, and would've still been competitive with actually casting CLWs or Lay on hands on him instead.

Except if there was a Dragon Shaman in the party it likely would have been Chief. Especially given Chief's original class-picking criteria of the guy who stands back and doesn't do anything but still gets bothered by everyone.

[Psyren]

In fantasy, the tribe shaman tends to be the advisor rather than the actual leader.

Honestly though, I would roll Dragon Shaman and DFA into one class; same with Knight and Paladin. Has anyone done that?

[true_shinken]

In fantasy, the tribe shaman tends to be the advisor rather than the actual leader.

Honestly though, I would roll Dragon Shaman and DFA into one class; same with Knight and Paladin. Has anyone done that?

Folding Knight and Marshall seems reasonable. Paladin is a different concept.

[Incanur]

I don't know that it's relevant to the divine mind, but a lot of us consider the paladin tier four.

[Amphetryon]

I don't know that it's relevant to the divine mind, but a lot of us consider the paladin tier four.

Opinions vary, but I think that's a fairly generous ranking. Paladin is useful for 2 - 5 levels, but rarely taken beyond that if options are available, in my experience.

[tyckspoon]

Opinions vary, but I think that's a fairly generous ranking. Paladin is useful for 2 - 5 levels, but rarely taken beyond that if options are available, in my experience.

Generous application of feats (Sword of the Arcane Order, Battle Blessing) and ACFs (Charging Smite) can yield a pretty sound tier 4; it can be optimized for charge damage pretty easily, free quickens on your Paladin spells is always good, and you get a variety of low-level utilities from Arcane Order. Paladin spell progression means you get them far too late for them to be a major power at the level, but it's a huge step better than not having them.

[Incanur]

The alternate mounts in the DMG also increase the paladin's effectiveness when usable. Level 6 gives you a dire wolf or unicorn, 7 gives you a rhino, and 8 unlocks the dire lion. Each special mount gets +2 HD and +4 natural armor to begin with.

[Pechvarry]

I don't know that it's relevant to the divine mind, but a lot of us consider the paladin tier four.

As such, if I did this right most people should think their favorite class is a little too low, whether that class is Fighter or Monk or Rogue or whatever else

I know that was my reaction to seeing Paladin in tier 5.

[aboyd]

Passive auto-stabilization is a big enough feature to warrant mentioning.

The Dragon Shaman's healing ability doesn't auto-stabilize. It explicitly states that it works like natural healing. And natural healing is listed as not being able to stabilize. :(

[Skjaldbakka]

Even if the GM ruled that the healing from the dragon shaman's ability didn't stabilize, it would still be +1 hp every round, which is enough to prevent them from bleeding to death.

Also, that ruling would be highly suspect anyway:

A creature with fast healing has the extraordinary ability to regain hit points at an exceptional rate. Except for what is noted here, fast healing is like natural healing.

At the beginning of each of the creature’s turns, it heals a certain number of hit points (defined in its description).

Since there is no exception made for when bleeding out, that works even at negative HP... so fast healing does, in fact, auto-stabilize.

[JaronK]

Still, bleeding to death like that is very low levels only. Pretty soon that 10 hp cushion really doesn't matter much at all. And at the levels where it really does, only going to half HP means you don't get very much at all most of the time.

JaronK

[Skjaldbakka]

In my experience, downed opponents get ignored, so that 10 hp cushion isn't so much a cushion as it is a 'somebody get to him before he bleeds to death' timer.

That being said, I still think the dragon shaman healing ability is kinda meh. I've never had any interest in playing one. If I want to play a character with dragon based magical powers, I play a sorceror (doesn't even need any reflavoring).

[aboyd]

Since there is no exception made for when bleeding out, that works even at negative HP... so fast healing does, in fact, auto-stabilize.

Uh, let's be careful with our terminology here. I think we are actually in agreement, but using "auto-stabilize" mis-characterizes it.

If I get the gist of what you're saying, it's this: since the unconscious person "bleeds out" at a rate of 1 HP per round, and since the Dragon Shaman's healing aura will heal 1 HP a round, it's essentially like stabilizing. They'll lose a point and gain a point every round, so it's a wash.

Yeah?

If that's what you mean, then we are in agreement. Having said that, I'd never call that auto-stabilization, as that implies very different math. If we told people to treat it as if the character did stabilize, then they would not do the "lose one point, gain one point, it's a wash" thing. Instead, they'd say, "OK, stabilized on round 1 of being in the aura, so they will stop losing points each round. For every subsequent round, they'll gain 1 HP, and be conscious quickly."

It's just my opinion, but "It's a wash, so they stay at exactly the negative number of hit points they have" is very different from "I'm getting more HP every round, and might even be up in time to help finish this battle."

That difference was big enough for one of my players to drop his Dragon Shaman and roll up a new character. I didn't blame him.

I've thought about house-ruling it the way that Lesser Vigor works -- the text for that spell also calls it fast-healing (I think) but makes an exception, stating that it does stabilize. Having that spell as part of the official rules makes it easier (for me) to house rule that way for the Dragon Shaman. But it is a house rule, even if no DMs realize it.

[Godskook]

That's what he described in the first paragraph, but not the one you quoted.

In the one you quoted, he was describing it as being an over-write effect(-1 for non-stabilized, and then overwritten as +1 for Fast Healing, so in the end, +1, not +0).

[Zeb The Troll]

Troll Patrol: This thread was well past the expiration date when it was granted undeath. The discussion that's sprung up since then has no bearing on the original question either. I'm putting this thread back in the ground. However, if someone would like to start a new thread to continue this discussion of the Tier system, they may.