Rorschach

[Dienekes]

But it is futile to wonder if there was other solution. The gordian knot is only famous and has reach our time by way of tale for a single reason:

the way it was solved.

The whole point of the myth is that it has been cut.

And to question what the myth means for human beings. I see most myths like I see the comic, questioning it brings about different perceptions. Does the myth of X mean X? Of course, but what else can it mean? What do you achieve through questioning it?

The same principle applies to many (even most I might say) good stories that stick with you. And Watchmen is definitely one of these stories.

[SolkaTruesilver]

And to question what the myth means for human beings. I see most myths like I see the comic, questioning it brings about different perceptions. Does the myth of X mean X? Of course, but what else can it mean? What do you achieve through questioning it?.

I guess. It's just that I find your interpretation of the Gordian knot myth questionnable at best. Alexander cut it in half, and you saw it as resorting to violence to solve your problems.

Cutting something is more akin to a tool than a weapon. It's more about using your means at your disposal to reach the end, even if not following the unsaid and unwritten rules.

[Dienekes]

I guess. It's just that I find your interpretation of the Gordian knot myth questionnable at best. Alexander cut it in half, and you saw it as resorting to violence to solve your problems.

Cutting something is more akin to a tool than a weapon. It's more about using your means at your disposal to reach the end, even if not following the unsaid and unwritten rules.

And you do not find it telling that the legend specifically calls to point out that he brings out his sword to cut the knot, which last I checked was rather definitively a weapon? On one hand it is a practical and ingenious solution, on the other hand the imagery it creates of Alexander, sword in hand and his problems cut down before him is very stirring.

I've always found, without belittling the achievement in and of itself, questioning what such actions implicate to be much more interesting.

This example could be used to show many things, that Alexander was a brute who only knew how to use weapons (he was a brute, but I'd never go that far), that the Gordian knot could only be solved this way (which I find rather misses the point that Alexander abandoned the rules and came up with his own solution), or to even give fear and respect to Alexander (very likely part, but I believe only part). Or a million more that I cannot even imagine.

This, to me anyway, is the truely interesting thing about such stories.

[Dr.Epic]

Just wondering if anybody else knows Rorschach's birthday. I mentioned today to my one friend that I knew and he was disappointed at how nerdy I am for knowing this. I just want to know if anyone else is as nerdy as I am for knowing that.

[Dienekes]

I believe it's March 21.

[chiasaur11]

Just wondering if anybody else knows Rorschach's birthday. I mentioned today to my one friend that I knew and he was disappointed at how nerdy I am for knowing this. I just want to know if anyone else is as nerdy as I am for knowing that.

Hrm. Important question.

Want Kovacs birthday, or Rorscachs's?

Different things. Very different.

[hamishspence]

This example could be used to show many things, that Alexander was a brute who only knew how to use weapons (he was a brute, but I'd never go that far), that the Gordian knot could only be solved this way (which I find rather misses the point that Alexander abandoned the rules and came up with his own solution), or to even give fear and respect to Alexander (very likely part, but I believe only part). Or a million more that I cannot even imagine.

This, to me anyway, is the truely interesting thing about such stories.

Terry Pratchett brings it up in The Last Hero- using his own Discworld version of Alexander- with a strong suggestion that the reason the priests didn't accuse him of "cheating" being, his very big army.

On "gambling the fate of humanity" quite apart from the problem of what might have happened if either side had been slightly more paranoid or distrustful- there is manipulating the psyche of an extremely dangerous superman. Get it wrong, and Manhattan turns into a Woobie Destroyer of Worlds- something along the lines of:

"You murdered my wife. And my friends. With cancer. And convinced me that I was the one responsible. And you're telling me it was all for the good of humanity?? Well maybe humanity doesn't deserve to live...."

[Dervag]

"You murdered my wife. And my friends. With cancer. And convinced me that I was the one responsible. And you're telling me it was all for the good of humanity?? Well maybe humanity doesn't deserve to live...."

My God. I never even thought of that, and it's a huge potential flaw in Veidt's plan... Wow. I mean, the main thing that restored Jon's faith in humanity in the first place was when he realized just how unlikely Laurie's existence was. That happened by sheer chance, as far as any action of Veidt's was concerned. He had no way of knowing that Jon would learn that, or that it would have such a profound effect on him.

As far as Veidt's actual plans were concerned, it wasn't enough to make Dr. Manhattan leave Earth. He needed Big Blue to never come back, ever, and never find out what happened. And I doubt he had any way of assuring that.
__________

Idea for the mind:

Do you think that if, in the YEARS of planning his action, Ozymandia would have found a less costly (but just as likely to succeed) plan to undertake, he would have taken it?

I think he would have. He wasn't out to kill people for kill's sake, he wanted to save humanity.

I do not know.

Seriously, I do not know. I don't feel I can make safe assumptions about his motives. On the one hand, he professes to care about the well-being of others and takes risks to do things that benefit others. On the other hand, he's a megalomaniac who has some serious mental issues related to his own ambition, capabilities, and status as "the world's smartest man."

Maybe he would have leaped at any less costly plan that presented itself. Maybe he would have rejected it because it didn't fit his own idea of how the problem ought to be solved. I can't say, so I don't take the simple fact that Ozymandias did not try other ways of preventing nuclear war in and of itself to be evidence that no other ways existed.

He might be so supremely honorable and competent that he would surely have tried and failed at all other methods before resorting to the psychic squid... but he might not be. Without being sure of just how strong his character is, we can't use the strength of his character as an axiom to justify that he wouldn't commit an evil act unless there was no other way.
__________

Okay, I've cooled down a bit since my last posts and I'm not really planning to argue to much over the ethics of the situation. Instead I'll just point out a few flaws in Ozymandias' plans... most using the movie version...

1). In the movie, Ozys plan was to use a generator created by Dr. Manhattan to simulate his power and vaporize New York and several other cities around the globe in order to unite everyone against a common enemy, namely Manhattan. What if that had gone horribly wrong?

[earth-shattering kabooms ensue]

*Meanwhile back at Ozys Arctic Base, everyone is watching the video screen*

Ozymanias: ... interesting. It seems that countries on the brink of nuclear war get more trigger happy when entire cities get wiped off the face of the earth. Eh heh... I was eh... kinda hoping that everyone would just sorta stop what they were doing and learn to get along. Eh... my bad.

*Everyone else just scowls at him. Rorschach cracks his knuckles.*

Nite Owl: THAT WAS YOUR PLAN?!

That's my biggest problem with Veidt's plan, too.

Now, in the book, some of this couldn't happen because only New York was targeted, and by an attack mechanism that obviously had nothing to do with Dr. Manhattan. But the basic problem remains- the US could still interpret the attack as Soviet in origin, which would be more than enough to trigger World War Three by itself given the overall level of tension.

Plus, since Ozys plan involved taking Manhattans generator and making him leave Earth... but not the later before the former and within the time span of a few days or less... then his whole thing is really risky.

To be fair, Veidt had a lot of control over the timing of when Jon left Earth. The press conference that stressed him out enough to make him want to leave was orchestrated by him, and he may well have had some other backup plans to put even more stress on him.

4). As for the squid... that things psychic backlash thing explicitly says that it kills pretty much everything in the city and gives people nightmares. WHO WOULD BE AROUND TO SEE THAT ITS A SQUID? For all the US knows, New York just stopped responding as everyone in the city screams in agony and dies. Did they have remote cameras that could fly over there to look at the thing? Would the US just think that maybe the Soviets had invented some sort of freaky suitcase neutron bomb thing that kills people by frying their brains?

They might very well think so. On the other hand, the psychic effect doesn't kill everyone; the mortality rate is roughly 50%.

So yeah... I'm sorry but during a Cold War where two nuclear superpowers have WMDs pointed at eachother and are expecting eachoether to fire WMDs, and they both know that teleportation is possible, and each have hair triggers set to nuke eacheother off the face of the earth... I get the impression that setting off WMDs is more likely to cause a huge disaster than it is to make everyone hold hands and play nice.

This.
__________

But it is futile to wonder if there was other solution. The gordian knot is only famous and has reach our time by way of tale for a single reason: the way it was solved.

The whole point of the myth is that it has been cut.

Solka, anyone can cut a knot. This does not prove that the knot cannot be untied. All the case of the Gordian knot proves is that:
1)Alexander the Great was impatient with conventional solutions, and
2)Alexander the Great was no Boy Scout, as his lack of aptitude with knots demonstrates.
It does NOT prove that the knot was truly impossible to untie: there are plenty of knots that can be untied and that can also be cut. I can cut a knot any time I like, even if untying it would be trivially easy. Alexander didn't even try; he just said "screw this" and took out a sword.

Likewise, all the end of Watchmen proves is that:
1)Veidt was impatient with conventional solutions, and
2)Veidt was no Boy Scout, as his killing of three million people in cold blood demonstrates.
It does NOT prove that the only way to end the Cold War was to fake an alien invasion and kill three million people in the process. There are plenty of international conflicts that can be solved without faking an alien invasion, after all. Veidt, so far as we can tell, didn't even try; he just said "screw this" and took out a psychic squid-monster.

Now, if what Veidt actually did was the moral equivalent of cutting a knot, this would be fine. It is not immoral to cut knots, and you don't really need any compelling reason to think that a knot must be cut in order to do it. But you need a damn good reason to kill three million people; "I don't have time for this" isn't good enough.

[Lord of Rapture]

My God. I never even thought of that, and it's a huge potential flaw in Veidt's plan... Wow. I mean, the main thing that restored Jon's faith in humanity in the first place was when he realized just how unlikely Laurie's existence was. That happened by sheer chance, as far as any action of Veidt's was concerned. He had no way of knowing that Jon would learn that, or that it would have such a profound effect on him.

As far as Veidt's actual plans were concerned, it wasn't enough to make Dr. Manhattan leave Earth. He needed Big Blue to never come back, ever, and never find out what happened. And I doubt he had any way of assuring that.

Doc Manhattan was already completely detached from humanity before Veidt's plan kicked in. Heck, if it wasn't for Laurie, he'd never come back at all, thereby making Veidt's plan flawless.

Either way, the good doctor stays out of Veidt's way.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Adrian had recreated the chamber that destroyed Jon Osterman specifically to "kill the unkillable man," in the event that Dr. Manhattan returned. Of course, it didn't work, but in his plan as conceived he would have ensured Dr. Manhattan never returned one way or the other.

[Da'Shain]

Doc Manhattan was already completely detached from humanity before Veidt's plan kicked in. Heck, if it wasn't for Laurie, he'd never come back at all, thereby making Veidt's plan flawless.

Either way, the good doctor stays out of Veidt's way.

Er ... what? Veidt's plan wouldn't have even worked if Dr. Manhattan had been completely detached, because then he simply wouldn't have cared that people got cancer from him. Basically, he gambled that Dr. Manhattan's response would be to do a god's equivalent of storming off in a huff, instead of either not caring or sticking around to try and find out why. That particular gamble paid off, putting Manhattan out of the way until it was too late to do anything, but it was dependent on the big blue guy still caring to some extent.

And "flawless" is a rather ridiculous claim, because even being the smartest man in the world won't let you predict someone's actions with 100% surety, let alone someone with godlike powers and a slowly decaying set of ethics and morals.