3.5 LA 0 Skulk

[Loren]

I really like the RP flavour of the Skulks (from races of destiny) for an upcoming game, but their LA is too much for a bit of flavour (once hit dice are taken into account). So I was wondering how they could be trimmed back to a more managable form while still keeping their "charm".
Here's what I'm thinking so far

Skulk
+4 dex, -2 wis, -4 cha
humanoid, human subtype
medium
speed: 30
+2 hide, +2 move silently
-peerly camouflage: move full speed while hiding without penalties
-Innate Nondetect: difficult to detect by divination, DC 20 caster level check to find
-trackless path: DC to track is increased by 10
automatic language: common
favoured class: rogue

thought points
1) +4 dex looks very good, but they still end up net -2 ability points
2) they are suppose to be freakishly sneaky which +2 to relevant skills doesn't quite capture (they had +8 ms and +15 hide and 10 disposible skill points with those two skill as the only class skills)

[Milskidasith]

-4 charisma is essentially a nonpenalty, but honestly +X to stat really isn't an amazing benefit, although dex is all around good for any class.

[Harperfan7]

-4 charisma is essentially a nonpenalty, but honestly +X to stat really isn't an amazing benefit, although dex is all around good for any class.

Are there poisons that target charisma?

[Milskidasith]

Are there poisons that target charisma?

Poisons are almost entirely useless. As for poisons targeting charisma: Not as far as I know, and even then, there are poisons that target everything else, so it's still far less of a penalty than any other stat.

Str: Getting str poisoned to being incapable of moving, encumberance, attack rolls and damage.
Dex: AC, poison, reflex saves, attack rolls, initiative.
Con: HP, fort saves, poison.
Int: Skills, poison.
Wis: Will saves, Poison.
Cha: Poison (maybe.)

[deuxhero]

I really like the RP flavour of the Skulks (from races of destiny) for an upcoming game, but their LA is too much for a bit of flavour (once hit dice are taken into account).

So in otherwords you want to sacrifice power for flavor?

[jiriku]

Lightning Warrior!

Increase the skill bonuses. Nondetection and trackless path are essentially valueless for a character who always travels with notorious friends who leave deep footprints. You might literally play an entire campaign without having your nondetection matter.

[Owrtho]

Nondetection and trackless path are essentially valueless for a character who always travels with notorious friends who leave deep footprints. You might literally play an entire campaign without having your nondetection matter.

Not once you get separated somehow and your friends are trying to find you.

Owrtho

[Loren]

So in otherwords you want to sacrifice power for flavor?

essenitally, yes. Basically, I want to shed some HD's, save, skill points, anf feats so that I can get the flavour earlier in the character progression. Since I'd be able to level the character up in a class I don't think I'd actually lose much by way of power and I'd be able to play the character I want from level 1, which is where we'd be starting.

Increase the skill bonuses.

happily, but Savage Species recommends that if a race gives a bonus on 3 or more on a skill it should get a +1 adjustment, or at least that's my understanding. Would you recommend uping the value of the two skills already getting bonuses or giving bonuses to a wider range of skills (such as climb, spot, listen)

Should I change the ability bonuses/penalties?

[deuxhero]

SS also says anthrobat and feral are LA+0 and LA+1 respectively.

[Loren]

I realize the book is a) not 3.5 and b) in need of improvement, but it's the only guide for designing races I know of other than the brief blurb in the DMG

[Tinydwarfman]

When I first read the title I was like "wait, skunks are LA +1?!?" I lol'd.

[jiriku]

The authors of SS were afraid that if you got big skill bonuses, you might overshadow the Tier 1 casters with their invisibility and silence spells.

I am not so worried about that happening.

Buff the Hide and Move Silently. Skulks didn't have bonuses to anything else, so you'll actually be moving away from the flavor you want if you insert extraneous bonuses.

And FYI? Kobold, +0 LA. Hide bonus is +9 untyped (+4 Small size, +4 virtual Tiny size from slight build, +1 bonus from Dex enhancement).

[Loren]

how much of a skill bonus would you recommend, +4, +6?

would it make sence to extend peerless camaflage to include moving silently as well, making it 'peerless sneak'. moving hidden at full speed ain't all that great if you make alsorts of noise doing it. Id don't think a change like this would break the flavour and would make its centre peice ability work in a more rational manner.

[deuxhero]

Prehaps Darkstalker (forget book, force enemy to make checks to find you even with non-sight detection methods) as a bonus feat?

[Loren]

is ther any more advice out there.
How should I adjust the skill points?
would extending peerless camouflage to move silently radidaly afect the level of the race?
are the abilities balanced?
are there any racial features that it would be good to add?
is it over powered or underpowered for a LA 0?

[paddyfool]

Jiriku was joking about them needing more stuff, don't worry.

Innate Nondetect should scale with level if possible - DC 10+character level, or 15+character level, perhaps (not sure what's balanced). And you might want to cut down the "peerly camouflage" to "move up to X ft while hiding without penalty" (maybe 20), to stop them flitting about all over the place once they get speed increases.

Also, if you want to give them more of the Skulk's full abilities, maybe have a Skulk racial paragon class or a Skulk Rogue Racial Class Variant for that.

[jiriku]

Hmpf! 'Twas not a joke!

I would go with the +6 Hide and +4 Move Silently. Skulks are supposed to be peerless masters of stealth. A skulk with +4 Dex and a +6 racial bonus to Hide is somewhat harder to find than a halfling or gnome, but somewhat easier to find than a kobold. That seems entirely reasonable to me.

I wouldn't add other racial features if you're looking for a +0 LA skulk. They're pretty much one-trick ponies.

[Loren]

What if I were to have peerless scale?
The other two abilities actually seem like they'd more often be a hinderence than an advantage, as my opponents could find the rest of the party to find him, but the rest of the party would have a hard time finding him if they were seperated.

[Loren]

Would this be over powered or under powered for a +0 LA race?


Skulk
+4 dex, -2 wis, -4 cha
humanoid, human subtype
medium
speed: 30
+6 hide, +4 move silently
-peerly sneak: move up to 30 feet while hiding and moving silently without penalties. Increases by 10 feet every 5 levels
-Innate Nondetect: difficult to detect by divination, DC 10+character level caster level check to find
-trackless path: DC to track is increased by 10
automatic language: common
favoured class: rogue

[paddyfool]

That should be "peerless" sneak.

Crunchwise: yeah, it's OK. Might be something of an arena favourite, being so sneaky, but in real play it should be just fine.

[Latronis]

Sure I'd let you play it. However in the interest of not having you just avoid every encounter I'd be throw monsters with a realistic chance of making the opposed checks, which given that's usually beyond your ECL, has a good chance of ****ing you up if it does.

Now do you see why LA0 doesn't give huge skill bonuses?

[jiriku]

Sure I'd let you play it. However in the interest of not having you just avoid every encounter I'd be throw monsters with a realistic chance of making the opposed checks, which given that's usually beyond your ECL, has a good chance of ****ing you up if it does.

Now do you see why LA0 doesn't give huge skill bonuses?

Latronis has a valid concern about imbalanced scores, but if placed within the context of other stealthy races of similar LA, I think we can see that the +0 LA skulk is in good company:

LA +0
Human (underfolk): total of +4 Hide, +10 Hide in rocky terrain
Halfling: total of +5 Hide
Gnome: total of +5 Hide
Forestkith Goblin: total of +5 Hide, +9 Hide in forests
+0 LA Skulk: total of +8 Hide
Forest Gnome: total of +8 Hide, +12 Hide in forests
Kenku: total of +9 Hide
Kobold: total of +9 Hide

LA+1
Poison Dusk Lizardfolk: total of +10 Hide

LA+2
Grimlock: total of +1 Hide, +11 Hide in rocky terrain or underground

If anything, I think your skulk is a little bit underpowered because it doesn't have any special abilities apart from sneakiness, but then, the skulk race is essentially defined by that feature so you're limited by the designer's original vision for the race.

[Loren]

1) What if the skill bonuses were scaled back to +4hide, +2 ms and add something else like:
-low light visson: a shadowy assassin should be able to see where he's going
- +2 jump, climb, and/or balance: as masters of avoiding attention Skulks are quite good at moving in way that aren't normally expected
These ideas are not in keeping with the original in RoD, but might make the race more diverse and are in keeping with the tone in my intepretation.
2) are the ability scores good, or would it be better to make them +2 dex, -2cha? This would make it less of a max/min type race, but would reduce the image of freakishly dexterous.

[Loren]

OK, I have 2 versios of the LA0 Skulk I'd like to vet. The first is my previous version, which stays farly close to the original description in RoD. The second has been toned down and broadened to give it some more versitility. your thoughts and comments would be appreciated.

Skulk
+4 dex, -2 wis, -4 cha
humanoid, human subtype
medium
speed: 30
+6 hide, +4 move silently
-peerless sneak: move up to 30 feet while hiding and moving silently without penalties. Increases by 10 feet every 5 levels
-Innate Nondetect: difficult to detect by divination, DC 10+character level caster level check to find
-trackless path: DC to track is increased by 10
automatic language: common
favoured class: rogue



Skulk
+2 dex, -2 cha
humanoid, human subtype
medium
speed: 30
+3 hide, +3 move silently, +2 balance, +2 climb, +2 tumble
-peerless sneak: move up to 30 feet while hiding and moving silently without penalties. Increases by 10 feet every 5 levels
-Innate Nondetect: difficult to detect by divination, DC 10+character level caster level check to find
-trackless path: DC to track is increased by 10
-low-light vision
automatic language: common
favoured class: rogue

[Latronis]

Skulk
+2 dex, -2 cha
humanoid, human subtype
medium
speed: 30
+3 hide, +3 move silently, +2 balance, +2 climb, +2 tumble
-peerly sneak: move up to 30 feet while hiding and moving silently without penalties. Increases by 10 feet every 5 levels
-Innate Nondetect: difficult to detect by divination, DC 10+character level caster level check to find
-trackless path: DC to track is increased by 10
-low-light vision
automatic language: common
favoured class: rogue

I like this one, though given they are otherwise weakish i think you can afford to knock them up to +4 hide\ms. That'll allow them to still be exceptional stealthy character for medium characters. And allow the greatest of small stealthy races to overcome them at the lowest levels when size and racial bonuses have the biggest effect.

[paddyfool]

I like the first version better, because the other abilities just don't fit quite so well. If I was to add anything to it to address Jiriku's criticism, then maybe a bonus to spot/listen might fit better - being good at being sneaky often equates to being good at spotting other sneaks. Either remains fine, though, imho.

One gripe remains: there's no such word as "peerly". Are you sure you don't mean "peerless"?

[Loren]

you are correct, the spelling has been corrected

[Loren]

I'm leaning towards this version

Skulk
+2 dex, -2 cha
humanoid, human subtype
medium
speed: 30
+4 hide, +4 move silently, +2 balance, +2 climb, +2 tumble
-peerless sneak: move up to 30 feet while hiding and moving silently without penalties. Increases by 10 feet every 5 levels
-Innate Nondetect: difficult to detect by divination, DC 10+character level caster level check to find
-trackless path: DC to track is increased by 10
-low-light vision
automatic language: common
favoured class: rogue

as it would give me more versitility as a player. I thought that low-light vision would be similar to the spot bonus, but I also made sence to me that something used to skulking around in shadows would see better in the dark than a typical human. They also aren't suppose to be wise, so I thought that it would be best to leave them neutral in their senses when I adjusted their abilities.
I increased the dex related skills because I reduced the their dex ability. I thought that by increasing the skill I could repature their dexterous aspect and focus it on the skills I'd expect a sneak character to be good at.

questions:
1)would it be better to change trackless path to DC to track is increased by 5 plus character level.
2) how is it looking it terms of balance? (I'm looking for a fun and balanced to core character, realizing how unbalanced core can be)
3) add +2 jump? it already has lots of skills, but jump would fit with the other ones I've given it.

[AlienOverlord]

Here's what I do with my players. An Elite Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) is basically LA+2. (The bottom half of the scor s balance out, and the top half are: +5/+4/+3, which normalizes to +4/+4/+2.) If a character selected a LA+0 race, which is most of the time, then they get the Elite Array, which is equal to a 25-point buy. If they select a LA+1 race and I allow it, they get a reduced array (14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 8), which is equal to a 20-point buy. If they do a LA+2 race, they get the standard array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8), which is a 15-point buy. I don't allow LA+3 or higher. And I may make them spend their first level feat on racial abilities, depending on what they are. But for straight ability score comparisons, this seems to work better than LA's.