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    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Boston, MA

    Default Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    After the fall of the Temple of Nine Swords, much martial lore and many techniques were forgotten. Some say that some obscure disciplines which were known only to a few of the masters may have been completely lost.

    A group of swordsages reacted to this loss of knowledge. However, they disagreed on both techniques and ultimate goals. Some of them turned to the powers of necromancy to regain the lost martial skills of the dead while others used the powers of the mind to preserve the knowledge that still existed for future generations. Thus were born The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preservers of Future Blades.


    The Seekers of Lost Swords are a loosely affiliated group of necromancer-warriors who dedicate their power primarily to recovering lost martial power. The Preservers of Future Blades in contrast uses psionics to spread martial knowledge and preserve it for future generations. The two disagree with their methods and precise goals but most of them see eye-to-eye enough that members are more likely to consider themselves friendly rivals than anything else. Some of them even understand that their skills are complementary.

    Seeker of Lost Swords

    I contain within my soul the knowledge and skill of hundreds of masters who came before me. How can I not help but triumph? - Talmagat, a Seeker of Lost Swords before a duel with an Ebon Phoenix Mage

    BECOMING A SEEKER OF LOST SWORDS

    ENTRY REQUIREMENTS

    Skills: Martial lore 8 ranks, knowledge(history) 5 ranks. 8 ranks in either knowledge(religion) or knowledge(arcana).
    Feats: Spell Focus(necromancy)
    Maneuvers: Able to use one martial maneuver from The Narrow Bridge that is of at least second level. Knowledge of martial maneuvers from at least three different disciplines.
    Spells: Able to cast a 2nd level necromancy spell
    Special: Must train with a Seeker of Lost Swords and then must consume a special special alchemical mixture from the ashes of a corpse of someone able to use martial maneuvers. The alchemical components aside from the corpse itself cost 100 gp and takes three days to prepare. The corpse must be of at least small size. No more than one dose of such potion may be made from a corpse no matter how large the original corpse.

    Class Skills
    The Seeker of Lost Swords's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Hide(Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge(arcana) (Int), Knowledge(history) (Int), Knowledge(religion) (Int), Martial Lore(Int), Sense Motive(Wis) Spellcraft (Int).

    Skills Points at Each Level: 2 + int

    Hit Dice: d6

    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spellcasting

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Necromantic Penetration, Learn What the Dead Knew, Lesser Martial-Necromantic Synergy|-

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Death's Quickness,Forensic Expertise| +1 of existing casting class

    3rd|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Recover that Which Has Been Lost, Martial Channeling 1/day|+1 of existing casting class

    4th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Martial Knowledge+2, Bonus Feat|+1 of existing casting class

    5th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Necromantic Insight|+1 of existing casting class

    6th|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Martial Channeling 2/day, Take Knowledge from Those Who Have Not Yet Died|+1 of existing casting class

    7th|
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Steal Spell Knowledge|+1 of existing casting class

    8th|
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |Necrotic Channeling, Martial Knowledge+4|+1 of existing casting class

    9th|
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |Martial-Necromantic Synergy,Martial Channeling 3/day|+1 of existing casting class

    10th|
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |True Enlightenment,Gift to Those Yet To Be|-[/table]

    Maneuvers: A Seeker of Lost Swords may take maneuvers from Diamond Mind, Narrow Bridge, Setting Sun and Shadow Hand, disciplines. Levels in Seeker of Lost Swords count full for calculating your initiator level.

    {table="head"]Level|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances Known
    1st|
    0
    |
    0
    |
    1

    2nd|
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0

    3rd|
    0
    |
    0
    |
    0

    4th|
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0

    5th|
    0
    |
    1
    |
    0

    6th|
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0

    7th|
    0
    |
    0
    |
    0

    8th|
    1
    |
    0
    |
    1

    9th|
    0
    |
    0
    |
    0

    10th|
    1
    |
    1
    |
    0
    [/table]

    Weapon Proficiencies: A Seeker of Lost Swords gains no proficiencies with any weapon, shield or armor.

    Spells: At every level but 1st and 10th, when a new level of Seeker of Lost Swords is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of Seeker of Lost Swords to the level of some other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly. If the character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a Seeker of Lost Swords, the player must decide to which class to add each Seeker of Lost Swords level for the purposes of determining spells per day and spells known.

    Necromantic Penetration (su)At 1st level, whenever you complete a successful martial strike against a target you may choose to use this ability. If you use this ability, the target's SR against necromancy spells and effects you originate is reduced by your class level for a number of rounds equal to your initiator level. When you use this ability you must specify that you are doing so against that target. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack, they only reset the duration. This ability stacks with any other ability that reduces spell resistance.

    Learn What the Dead Knew (su):At 1st level , whenever you touch a corpse you gain an instinctive impression of whether the being had any martial prowess. You learn if it was capable of using maneuvers. You get to make martial lore checks to recognize every maneuver it knew just as if you had witnessed it performing them in life. You also get a +2 bonus on the check if it had the maneuver readied any point in the 24 hours before its death this becomes a +4 bonus if it had the maneuver readied or active at the time of its death. This takes a standard action, and there is no retry for recognizing maneuvers this way. For all purposes, this is a supernatural necromantic effect of 3rd level with effective caster level equal to your initiator level. This may only be used on beings who have been dead no more than weeks equal to your wisdom modifier (min 1). At 3rd level this may extend out to 1 month per your wisdom modifier (min 1) and at 5th level months becomes years. At 7th level years becomes decades and at 9th level decades become centuries.

    Lesser Martial Necromantic Synergy(ex) At first level, you begin to glimpse some of the deep relations between necromancy and martial combat. Whenever you are in a martial stance you add the level of the stance for any concentration check related to either successfully casting a necromancy spell or casting a necromancy spell defensively.

    Death's Quickness (su): At 2nd level, whenever in any Narrow Bridge stance you may sacrifice a spell slot or prepared spell of at least 2nd level to switch to another Narrow Bridge stance as a free action rather than the usual swift action. Once a day you may use this ability as an immediate action when it is not your turn. Also, you may when in any martial stance sacrifice a 2nd level spell slot or prepared spell to switch to a Narrow Bride stance.

    Forensic Expertise (ex): At 2nd level, familiarity with martial ability and death gives you the ability to tell whether a being died violently. If you see a corpse that is less than 1 week old and reasonably well-preserved you can spend 1 minute examining it. If you do, you will know if the being died from combat and if so from what. This ability allows you notice very subtle signs even those that would not be obvious to the untrained eye (such as if they were killed by say a Phantom Killer or a Finger of Death). If they were killed by an obscure effect you may need to make some form of check to idenity it in detail beyond the broad nature of how it killed them. For spells you may make a spellcraft check to recognize the spell as if you had just witnessed it to determine what spell killed them. If they were killed by a martial maneuver you may make a Martial Lore check to determine what maneuver killed them. Similar checks apply to other effects (thus for example a psicraft check would be used to recognize how someone was killed by a psionic power). Failure on such checks does not prevent one from determining the broad cause of death (thus, one would still for example be able to see that someone was killed by magical fire even if one couldn't tell that it was a fireball).

    Martial Channeling (ex): You have learned to channel necromantic energy to further push the limits of your martial abilities. At 3rd level, you may once a day sacrifice a prepared necromancy spell or a spell slot capable of being used for a necromancy spell to initiate a maneuver you know that is either expended, not readied or not granted. The maneuver must of level no higher than the level of the spell sacrificed. This ability can be used any number of times daily.

    Additionally, you may instead channel martial power to substitute for necromancy spells. When you use this ability you expend a readied maneuver to cast a necromancy spell. If you use spell slots then this does not consume the normal spell slot. If you use prepared spells then you must have a copy of the spell prepared but the prepared copy is not consumed. The maneuver expended must be of level strictly larger than the level of the spell. You can use this ability once daily at 3rd level, twice daily at 6th and 3 times daily at 9th level.

    Recover that Which Has Been Lost(su): At 3rd level, you learn how to perform a powerful necromantic ritual which takes martial knowledge from the dead. This ritual takes 1 hour and requires special incense worth 250 gp, and a corpse of a martial adept. The ritual must must be performed at night during which you burn the corpse with a mix of the incense and chant for one hour. If the process is interrupted at any point you must make a DC 20 concentration check or the ritual fails with the corpse still being destroyed. Each subsequent interruption increases the DC of this check by 1.

    At the end of the ritual, you immediately gain full knowledge of which maneuvers were known to the dead being as if had used Learn What the Dead Knew ability and had succeeded on all the martial lore checks. For each maneuver they knew you make a martial lore check with DC equal to the recognition DC that you would normally need to use Learn What the Dead Knew. Of the maneuvers that you succeed on this check, you may select one. This maneuver must be of level no higher than the highest level maneuver you can use -2. (At 6th level this becomes no higher than the highest level you can use -1 and at 10th level may be up to the highest level you can use.) You pay 1000 xp per level of this maneuver and gain it as an additional maneuver known in all martial classes you have.

    You must sometime in the future set aside 8 hours for training and meditating with the new maneuver, during which time you must make a skill check in the skill associated with the discipline the maneuver is from (DC 10 + the maneuver level), to be able to gain the maneuver. You may repeat this process any number of times until you gain the maneuver.

    If you do gain the maneuver you also gain the associated class skill as a Seeker of Lost Sword's class skill, and are treated as having the maneuver's discipline as a valid discipline for any martial class or PRC that you can gain maneuvers in.

    Maneuvers gained using Recover that Which Has Been Lost cannot be replaced by any form of retraining ability.

    Good or neutral Seekers of Lost Swords are likely to attempt to commune with the spirit of the corpse in question before using this ability, or if that is not an option, to gain permission from the next of kin before performing the ritual. Evil Seekers may go out of their way to use this ability on fallen enemies.


    Martial Knowledge (ex) At 4th level, your extensive study of past martial masters gives you a +2 bonus to all Martial Lore checks and all Knowledge(History) checks. At 8th level this becomes a +4 bonus.

    Bonus Feat: At 4th level, a Seeker of Lost Swords may gain as a bonus feat, Martial Necromancy(see below), Martial Study or any feat that requires a Narrow Bridge maneuver.

    Necromantic Insight(su) You can sense the remnants of very faint necromantic auras. Whenever you touch a corpse you know instinctively if the corpse was ever animated or turned into an undead or deathless being.. This ability also tell you if the apparent corpse touched is actually an undead or deathless playing dead (by not moving).

    Take Knowledge from Those Who Have Not Yet Died(su): At 6th level, you gain a special strike that allows you to rip away martial knowledge of stances from targets even as they are still alive. This strike is not from any discipline. This strike takes a standard action to initiate. When you use this strike the foe must make a will save (DC 17 + wisdom modifier). If they fail the save, they immediately lose whatever stance they are in, cannot take that stance for 2d6 rounds and you may assume that stance as a free action lasting the whole 2d6 rounds (even if you would not normally meet the prerequisites for the stance). If you use this ability, this additional stance does not count against your maximum number of stances you may be in. If you strike the killing blow on them within the 2d6 rounds (including with the same hit as that which took the stance) then you may instead assume the stance for up to 24 hours

    If the target fails its will save but is not currently in a martial stance it instead for 1 round/initiator level treats its Base Attack Bonus as 4 lower than it is. They are for that time treated as having a BAB that is 4 lower than it is, for all purposes (but cannot reduce BAB below zero). This effects iterative attacks, to hit bonus and access to feats or class features which specifically require a certain BAB. This does not effect access to a PrC even if that PrC would normally require a feat that you now cannot use (Essentially, you still have the feats, you just can't use them temporarily).


    Multiple uses of this strike do not stack. Repeated use simply removes whatever prior stance was gained from this strike if you choose to use the new stance. This strike is a 7th level strike for all purposes.



    Steal Spell Knowledge(su): Your skill at gaining martial knowledge has extended to gaining other forms of power as well.

    At 7th level, you gain a special strike that allows you to take knowledge of spells. This strike takes a standard action to initiate. You make a melee attack. Your target must make a will save (DC 15 + your wisdom modifier ) or lose 1d6 randomly prepared spells lost from each spellcasting class that prepares spells. If they have spellcasting classes which use spell-slots they lose the same number of spell-slots from their highest level spells. You become aware of what prepared spells were lost that are on any of your spell casting class lists that are of a level that you can cast (Dread Necromancers using this ability treat all sor/wiz and all cleric necromancy spells as on the class list). If any of the spells are of a level you can cast you may pick one and store it. You may cast the prepared copy just as if you had a prepared copy. Spells stolen in this form fade after rounds equal to your 1/2th your initiator level + primary spellcasting ability modifier(if you have multiple spellcasting classes you must decide which to assign the stolen spell). You cast the spell as if it were with being cast by you using that class. Thus, you use your primary ability modifier and caster stats. Thus, for example, stealing a divine spell makes it effectively an arcane spell if you are casting using an arcane casting class and the reverse if you try to cast an arcane spell from a divine class. For all purposes, this is a 5th level strike.

    Necrotic Channeling(su):You can channel arcane energy into your blade causing wounds to fester with undeath. At 8th level, when you use a martial strike, you may sacrifice a spell slot or prepared spell. If you do, the strike deals extra d6 damage die equal to the spell level or the maneuver level, whichever is lower. The target must make a fortitude equal to 10 + the spell level sacrificed + your wisdom modifier. On a failed save, half this additional damage becomes vile damage as undead flesh forms in the wound. If you use this ability together with The Flesh Crawls maneuver (from Narrow Bridge) then all the undead flesh becomes animated as per how that maneuver normally operates.

    Martial-Necromantic Synergy(su): You have learned to substitute necromantic power for martial flexibility and vice-versa. At 9th level, you may when making your morning preparations you may chose one of the following options:

    1) Reduce your maximum number of maneuvers you may have readied by 1. If you do so, you may pick one spell casting class you have and add for that day an extra spell slot of level one less than the highest level you have in that class. This slot can only be used for necromancy spells.

    2) You may remove a spell slot of the highest level you can cast in a class. If you do so, you may increase the number of maneuvers you may have readied by 1, but this extra maneuver readied must be from The Narrow Bridge.

    You may only choose one of these on any given day. Once chosen, this choice lasts for 24 hours.

    Additionally, while in any martial stance you get an insight bonus on all spellcraft checks related to necromancy spells and effects equal to half your class level.


    Gift to Those Yet To Be(su): Although many say that the Seekers of Lost Swords look only to the past this is not completely the case. They understand that even masters of necromancy and martial arts such as themselves will one day grow old and feeble. Thus, they developed this power to ensure that the knowledge they recovered would not be lost forever.

    At 10th level, you gain the ability to sacrifice yourself in a burst of necromantic magic to permanently pass on some of your martial prowess to another individual. This process takes 1 full minute and a willing participant whom you are touching throughout the process. At the end of the process, you die and the maneuver selected by you at the beginning of the process becomes known to the participant. The maneuver is known to them as an extra maneuver for any martial class they have. Moreover, they are treated as having gone through the training necessary to learn maneuvers from that class just as if they had paid the usual 1000 xp cost and trained with you. They also gain a +1 necromantic bonus to all martial lore checks.

    The maneuver cannot be used until they know at least one other maneuver of that level and meet the normal prerequisites for that maneuver. It otherwise remains locked in their minds.

    The target also automatically gains sufficient experience to gain a level and put them halfway to their next level. This additional level must be taken in either swordsage or warblade. The powerful necromantic magic used in this process permanently severs your soul from the material plane, leaving it impossible for you to be resurrected by any means short of divine intervention.

    You may engage in a 10 minute ritual with a willing target that causes this ability to trigger automatically when you die of old age. The target then gains the benefits regardless of distance (or whether they are on the same plane), and the process does not take the normal 1 minute. You may not have more than one such person designated. Designating an individual this way automatically removes any prior dedications. You may as a standard action change what maneuver is granted by this ability to your designated target. Neither the 10 minute ritual nor the standard action use of this ability may be forced to occur by any form of magical compulsion.

    True Enlightenment(ex): At 10th level you have gained true understanding of the awesome and mysterious connections between necromancy and martial skill. Your initiator level and caster level become one and the same. No class level may add more than +1 to this level, but any level that adds to caster or initiator level may add to this level. Any bonus to caster or initiator level may be added to this level, but any bonus that affects both may only be added once. You may use this level for any effect that relies on caster level or initiator level. This does not grant you additional spells or maneuvers known.

    Playing A Seeker of Lost Swords

    Seekers vary greatly in their attitudes and approaches. Some Seekers are dark warriors who have turned to necromantic powers to suit their own ends. Other seekers are those who seek to recover lost knowledge, valuing knowledge above all else. Some seekers use the power for good, seeking only more strength to fight evil, and, at the last, to pass on a gift to some other worthy champion of righteousness.

    Combat: You are weaker in combat than a straight spell-caster and you will likely be unable to deliver as much heavy damage as a simple martial adept. However, what you lack in heavy damage you make up in flexibility. You can use almost any maneuver you know if you are willing to burn a spell slot. And your power and flexibility only increases with each martial adept you defeat.

    Advancement: You are likely going to start out with a lot of necromantic power. However, you need to be more durable than the regular spellcaster. If you are an arcane spell-caster you may want to consider some abilities which reduce your arcane spell-failure chance. You will likely adventure to find lost tomes of martial lore or to find the bodies of fallen martial adepts. While other mages might become ecstatic at finding the tomb of a fallen wizard, you will be more likely to seek out that of a great warrior, hoping to plunder from the body the warrior's true secrets.

    Resources: The Seekers have no particular shared resources. A Seeker might belong to a regular guild of mages or necromancers or possibly belong to some military group.

    Seekers of Lost Swords in the world
    "The guy looked like some sort of weakling wizard. I was all ready for him to use his nefarious magics on me but he just drew a sword and the next thing I knew I was bleeding in four places." Tindarsin, a dwarven fighter commenting on his encounter with a Seeker of Lost Swords.

    Daily Life: Many Seekers are mercenaries or adventurers. Their abilities do not fit well with a sedentary life. A normal mage can spend years in his tower studying magic but if a Seeker wishes to improve he must go out and search for dead or dying adepts.

    Notables: Talmagat is a crusader-Seeker who has traveled widely to defeat evil and improve his martial skills. He is willing to use the corpses of evil adepts without any hesitation but he is careful to seek permission from others. He has been known to show up when an old martial adept lays dying, to seek their permission to use their corpse so that their martial power is not lost. He seems to be supernaturally gifted at finding out when their death is near and some speculate that he uses divination magic to find dying adepts.

    Benota Tan is a young but very powerful Jade Phoenix Mage. She has recently become interested in using the Seeker's powers to recover martial knowledge from some of her old bodies. Since she remembers where multiple of these bodies are, this could potentially give her great power. So far, her attempts to convince the other Jade Phoenix Mages that this is a worthwhile task have not succeeded. They have dismissed her ideas as not useful (in so far as Jade Phoenix Mages rarely have long-lifespans anyways) and regard them as possibly too dangerous given the inherent temptations involved in using such necromancy.

    Temeth is by all accounts an evil swordsage who spends most of his time tracking down martial adepts who he thinks he can get away with killing, challenging them to duels, and then desecrating their corpses to plunder their martial secrets.

    Ran Targat is a half-elf swordsage wizard. He is possibly the most skilled Seeker alive and he is known for his great knowledge of magic as well as his knowledge of martial lore. He cares little for morality, taking a studied pragmatism and dedication to the pursuit of knowledge above all else. He is however aging, and is looking for someone to pass on his greatest secrets to.

    Organizations: While the Seekers of Lost Swords are at least nominally affiliated with each other in so far as they are all dedicated to recovering martial knowledge, many of them grow secretive about the knowledge they have. It does not take much for a Seeker to realize that the people with the most incentive to kill a Seeker of Lost Swords are other Seekers who can then steal martial skills from the defeated Seeker although in practice a Seeker who kills many other Seekers may find other Seekers banding together to track them down.

    NPC Reaction
    While the Seekers are not a hidden organization, few know about them. Most people who encounter a Seeker are likely to treat them as they would treat anyone else with apparent skill in both combat and magic. If you use your more necromancy based abilities or some of the more unpleasant abilities from The Narrow Bridge, they are unlikely to react positively. And of course, most civilized people are not fond of burial desecration or grave robbing.

    Seekers of Lost Swords in the game

    The Seeker will in most circumstances not play very differently than any other gish using martial maneuvers. However, they are more unpredictable since they have access to many different maneuvers. Thus, DM's may have trouble predicting exactly what they expect a Seeker to do. A Seeker can if they really need to, use almost any maneuver they know. Also, if a party faces a martial adept with obscure or cool maneuvers, you are practically giving the Seeker extra fun if the Seeker manages to get access to the corpse. If a Seeker is likely to get extra maneuvers from an encounter, it may make sense to reduce the amount of treasure that is found that corresponds to Seeker accordingly. However, this treasure reduction should not be severe since the Seeker still needs to pay xp to gain new maneuvers. In general, this is similar to a wizard to gaining access to spellbooks which have obscure or unusual spells except that the Seeker must pay additional xp to have access to the equivalent benefits.

    Adaptation: Seekers could be adapted to instead of using necromancy to more directly commune with the spirits of warriors past, possibly then becoming a hybrid incarnum/martial class as a result. Another option is to keep the emphasis on necromancy but have it be used to summon the spirits of the dead who then give maneuvers to the Seeker. This could be used to make the Seeker more morally acceptable if they ask permission or more potentially evil if a given Seeker summons spirits unwillingly. Alternatively, one could completely remove the aspect related to death and allow them to learn new maneuvers from martial scripts. This might require reflavoring or complete replacement of some of the class abilities (such as that which allows one to steal spells and that which allows one to gain information from corpses).


    New feats:

    Martial-Necromancy
    You have learned how to channel some of your martial skill into undead you create.
    Prerequisites: Able to use a 2nd level martial maneuver, able to use some method to create undead, animate undead, or to give intelligence to unintelligent undead. Martial Lore 5 ranks, Knowledge(religion) 2 ranks.
    Benefit: Whenever you use any ability that creates undead or gives existing unintelligent undead intelligence (such as the Awaken Undead spell), you may choose to give the undead a copy of the Martial Study feat. If you do, you decide what maneuver to assign, which must be a maneuver which you know. Note that generally unintelligent undead can only use maneuvers if they are given explicit instructions to do so.
    Last edited by JoshuaZ; 2013-01-19 at 11:08 AM. Reason: typos

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Boston, MA

    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    The Preservers of Future Blades

    Much has been forgotten. I exist to make sure that no more is lost. - Almeta, an elf Preserver of Future Blades

    The Preservers of Future Blades are dedicated to making sure that martial knowledge is not lost but is shared and passed down to future generations. They use psionic power to form a Shared Mind which they use to share martial skill and to pass martial power down directly into the minds of their students.

    Preserver of Future Blades

    ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
    Skills:Martial Lore 8 ranks, Knowledge(Psionics) 5 ranks, Concentration 2 ranks, Psicraft 2 ranks
    Feats: Psychic Renewal. Either Blade Meditation (Diamond Mind) or Blade Meditation(Sleeping Goddess),
    Powers: Able to manifest a psionic power of at least 2nd level from the telepathy school.
    Martial maneuvers: Know at least five martial maneuvers. At least one must be of at least 2nd level from either Sleeping Goddess or Diamond Mind. You must know maneuvers from at least three different martial disciplines.

    Class Skills
    The class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Autohypnosis(Wis) Concentration (Con), Jump(Str), Knowledge(arcana) (Int),Knowledge(history) (Int), Knowledge(psionics) (Int), Martial Lore(Int) Psicraft (Int), Sense Motive(Wis).

    Skills Points at Each Level: 4 + int

    Hit Dice: d6

    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Manifesting

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Gift of the Shared Mind, Communion of the Shared Mind|-

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Voice of the Shared Mind, Conduit of the Shared Mind, Swift Mind, Psychic Residue|+1 existing manifesting class

    3rd|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Telepathic Adept, Psychic Veil| +1 existing manifesting class

    4th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Power of the Shared Mind | +1 existing manifesting class

    5th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Bonus Feat,Gift of the Shared Mind| +1 existing manifesting class

    6th|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Greater Swift Mind,Mental Fragment, Power Conduit| +1 existing manifesting class

    7th|
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Train the Future| +1 existing manifesting class

    8th|
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |Power of the Shared Mind| +1 existing manifesting class

    9th|
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    | Call of the Shared Mind|+1 existing manifesting class

    10th|
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Bonus Feat,Gift of the Shared Mind, Mental Pinnacle| +1 existing manifesting class [/table]

    Maneuvers: A Preserver of Future Blades may take maneuvers from Diamond Mind, Sleeping Goddess, and disciplines that they knew at least one maneuver in before taking their first level in Preserver. Any associated skills from those other disciplines also become class skills (See also Gift of the Shared Mind below which allows one to add additional disciplines). Levels in Preserver of Future Blades count full for calculating your initiator level.

    {table="head"]Level|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances Known
    1st|
    0
    |
    0
    |
    1

    2nd|
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0

    3rd|
    0
    |
    0
    |
    0

    4th|
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0

    5th|
    0
    |
    1
    |
    0

    6th|
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0

    7th|
    0
    |
    0
    |
    1

    8th|
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0

    9th|
    0
    |
    0
    |
    1

    10th|
    1
    |
    1
    |
    0
    [/table]

    Weapon Proficiencies: A Preserver of Future Blades does not gain any proficiencies.

    Gift of the Shared Mind(ex) The Shared Mind that all Preservers join together grants you extra martial prowess. At first level, pick any martial discipline. You may add that discipline to your list of disciplines for Preserver purposes and add its associated class as a class skill for Preserver. You also get the chosen discipline as additional discipline for any other class or prestige class in which you take levels. You get this ability again at 5th level and at 10th level, each time choosing an additional discipline.

    Communion with the Shared Mind(su) At first level, you learn to temporarily gain additional knowledge from the Shared Mind in exchange for giving up psionic energy. Once a day, when you engage in your normal meditation to recover power points, you may temporarily exchange maneuvers you know for other maneuvers given to you by the Shared Mind. You may give up any number of maneuvers. For each maneuver you give up, you may gain may a maneuver of that level or lower that you meet the prerequisites for. You must also pay power points equal to total levels of new maneuvers. So for example, if one exchanged a 4th level maneuver one could gain a maneuver of 1st,2nd,3rd, or 4th and would pay 1,2,3, or 4 power points. Although you may use this ability with multiple maneuvers you cannot pay more total power points than your manifester level. You may use this ability to gain stances but only if the maneuver given up is itself a stance.

    You cannot take a maneuver this way if you do not have its prerequisites, but you may exchange a set of maneuvers to then qualify for taking another. For example, you can take a maneuver that requires another maneuver in a given discipline if you also take another maneuver in that discipline that does not have any prerequisite If a maneuver is from a discipline you do not actually know any maneuvers in then you may not use this ability to take maneuvers of your highest level.

    Maneuvers gained from this communion are known only for purposes of initiating, not for making martial scripts or qualifying for other maneuvers or feats. For purposes of qualifying for feats and PrCs you are still treated as having the maneuvers you have given up for the day. Exchanged maneuvers last 24 hours.

    Note that Preservers with Union with the Shared Mind may use this ability to locate individuals borrowing maneuvers. See that ability and Psychic Veil later for details.

    Not all maneuvers are available in the Shared Mind. In general, which maneuvers are accessible should be up up to DM discretion. Individuals should discuss with the DM what the broad limits are before taking the PrC. All maneuvers of level 7 or below from the Nine official disciplines and from Sleeping Goddess should be available. In general, the more obscure a discipline, the less likely a given maneuver is to be in the shared mind. Similarly, the higher level a maneuver the less likely it is to be available from the Shared Mind. Exactly what maneuvers are in the Shared Mind may vary from day to day.

    Psychic Residue(su) At 2nd level, you can sense residual psychic energy on weapons. You can as a standard action touch a weapon and can tell if it has been used for violence within the last week and if so approximately how recently it was used for it (either within the last hour, or which day if beyond that). You can also tell whether the last violent act used a martial maneuver and if so you can make a martial lore check to learn what the maneuver was that was used and what other disciplines were known to the user of the weapon just as if you had witnessed the maneuver being performed. Any effect that would block the Object Reading power will block this ability.

    Voice of the Shared Mind(su): At 2nd level your connection to the Shared Mind provides you with additional knowledge as well as improving your own mental faculties. You gain a competence bonus on to Knowledge(Psionics) checks, Martial Lore checks, Autohypnosis checks, Concentration checks, and will saves equal to half your class level.

    Conduit of the Shared Mind (ps): At 2nd level, you gain the ability to use the Shared Mind to contact other Preservers. You may use the Correspond power as a psi-like ability. You may only use this ability to contact another Preserver. You may use this ability up to class level/2 + your intelligence modifier times daily.

    Swift Mind(Su): At 2nd level, you have learned to use your psionic powers to speed up your reactions. You may when you are in a martial stance expend your psionic focus to switch to any other martial stance as a free action. You may do so even when it is not your turn.

    Telepathic Adept(su): At 3rd level, you gain relevant information about the martial skill of beings whose mind you come into contact with. Whenever you use a telepathy power that targets a single being that allows a save on a failed save you learn exactly what maneuvers (if any) the being has readied and what disciplines the individuals knows maneuvers from. At 6th level, you also learn what maneuvers that the individual knows.

    Psychic Veil(su): When using your Communion with the Shared Mind, you may choose to control what information is given back to the Shared Mind. If your Psychic Veil is active then people using Union with the Shared Mind cannot gain knowledge of your location and they do not gain the ability to scry on you. Switching your Psychic Veil on or off requires 1 hour of meditation.

    Power of the Shared Mind At 4th level and again at 8th level you gain additional psionic knowledge from the Shared Mind. You gain one extra power known of your choice from the Psion/Wilder list that is of level strictly lower than your highest power level known.

    Bonus Feat:At 5th level and 10th get a bonus feat of Instant Clarity, Martial Study, Martial Stance, Blade Meditation, Scribe Martial Script or Craft Universal Item.

    Mental Fragment (ps) At 5th, you gain the ability to implant small fragments of your mind into a willing target that you are touching. When you use this ability, select an intelligence based skill that you have at least 8 ranks in. You implant some of your knowledge into your target. They can now permanently use that skill as if they had ranks in it, and gain a +1 competence bonus on checks for that skill. Using this ability requires you and your target to both expend 100 xp.

    Give to the Present (su) At 6th level you gain the ability to imprint maneuvers into the mind of willing creatures. You may as a standard action expend a readied maneuver you know and imprint that maneuver into the mind of willing creature you are touching. The creature must meet the prerequisites to use this maneuver. The maneuver must be one that you understand well and so the maneuver cannot be one gained from your connection to the Shared Mind. The target gains the ability to use the maneuver for 1 hour. If they have a class which allows refreshing of maneuvers they may refresh that maneuver using that ability (if they have multiple classes with access they must decide which to assign the maneuvers). If they do not have any refresh mechanism they may then use the maneuver once an encounter taking five minutes clear thought to refresh the maneuver. You may use this ability to give a target multiple maneuvers (and may use prior uses of Give to the Present to count for the prerequisites of subsequent uses). You may use this ability up to your class level + intelligence modifier times daily (min 1).

    Power Conduit (su): At 6th level, You may use your Conduit ability to transfer psionic power. When you use the Conduit in this fashion, a Preserver currently in a Conduit may transfer power points to a willing recipient. You may transfer power point of at most your manifester level. Doing so is a standard action. If the recipient is at their maximum number of power points this is simply lost. Using this ability terminates the conduit.

    Greater Swift Mind (su): You may once a day when using a martial strike that takes a standard action, expend psionic focus and pay power points equal to that you would pay for a power of the same level (so 1 point for a first level strike, 3 for a second level and so on). If you do so, you initiate the strike as a swift action. You may not pay more power points than your maximum manifester level. Also, if the strike has some augment feature (such as that of some Sleeping Goddess maneuvers), any augment paid counts towards the total manifester level limit. You cannot apply this ability to a maneuver of level more than half your class

    Train the Future (ex) At 7th level, you become particularly skilled at training young adepts. Someone training to gain a new discipline with you only needs to pay 500 xp rather than the usual 1000 xp (this is assuming Demented One's usual rules for training). You also gain a special power, Telepathic Training which is added to every manifesting class you have (you cannot access this in a class until you can manifest a 6th level power in that class).

    Telepathic Training
    Telepathy
    Level: Preserver 6
    Display: Visual, Auditory
    Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Touch
    Target: One willing creature
    Duration: 1 hour per a discipline, see text.
    Saving Throw: None
    Power Resistance: No
    Power Points: 11

    When you use this power you select a discipline you know. You and the target touched fall into a coma-like state as you are connected by a deep psionic bond. For the duration no effect short of epic magic will terminate this connection and awaken you until the duration has expired unless one of you dies. While objectively only a few hourss pass, for you and the student many weeks pass in subjective time as you and your student are immersed in a simulated world in which you can train the student in martial skills. The student can learn the basics of any disciplines that they wish to learn and which you wish to teach them. For each discipline that they wish to learn about, a week goes by in subjective time and a round goes by in outside reality. The student must pay the usual xp cost for learning a new discipline (with any relevant modifiers such as Train the Future above) and for all other purposes this functions exactly like the normal mechanic for learning new disciplines. The power terminates when either you are unwilling or unable to teach any more disciplines to the student or the student does not wish to learn any more.

    This power also leaves some residual mental impressions on the individual, giving them a +1 competence bonus to martial lore checks and allowing them to make martial lore checks as if they were trained in martial lore even if they are not. This benefit lasts for 1 month after the termination of the power.

    Augment: If you pay 4 additional power points, the effective speed of this power is greatly sped up, so that each week of subjective time only takes 1 round rather than 1 hour.

    Give to the Future(su): At 8th level, when you use Give to the Present you may make the maneuver given a permanent extra maneuver. If you choose to do so, the process takes 1 minute and you and your target must both pay 500 xp per maneuver level. After this process, if the maneuver is from a discipline that they had no maneuvers in then target is considered to have gained a new discipline as if they undergone the usual training procedure. The target must meet any usual prerequisites for a maneuver in order for them to gain the maneuver in this way.

    Greater Conduit(su): At 8th level, Whenever you are using a conduit that you started you can use telepathy powers on the target of your conduit with as long as being is willing. You are treated as touching the target and automatically overcoming power resistance. Powers used this way cost an extra 4 power points to manifest. Use of this ability terminates that conduit.

    Union with the Shared Mind(su): At 9th level you develop a closer connection to the Shared Mind. You do not fail will saves on a natural 1, as the Shared Mind protects you against mental assaults. Additionally, you may once a day query the Shared Mind about any specific maneuver in the Mind, learning how many people borrowed a specific maneuver from the Shared Mind in the last 24 hours and their approximate locations (if they are on the same plane). You gain from this enough knowledge to be able to use scrying on similar effects as if you had met them. Note that as discussed above,
    Preservers of at least third level may may use Psychic Veil to prevent this effect.

    Mental Pinnacle(ex): You have reached the height of mental and martial skill. Your initiator level and manifester level become one and the same. No class level may add more than +1 to this level, but any level that adds to manifester or initiator level may add to this level. Any bonus to manifester or initiator level may be added to this level, but any bonus that affects both may only be added once. You may use this level for any effect that relies on manfiester level or initiator level. Additionally, whenever you would be able to learn a psionic power you may instead choose to learn a martial strike, counter or boost of level no higher than the highest level power you can learn.

    If you have the Practiced Manifester feat you may immediately replace that feat with another feat when you gain Mental Pinnacle just as if you had engaged in retraining.

    Playing a Preserver of Future Blades

    Combat: Your combat techniques will vary much depending on what maneuvers you have prepared. However, your selection of maneuvers is far more varied than most martial adepts. You will need to think very carefully about what foes you are expecting to fight to decide exactly what maneuvers to request from the Shared Mind.
    Advancement: Any abilities that increase your martial skill or manifesting prowess will be useful. Practiced Manifester is useful to make up for the lost manifesting levels especially at lower levels. (There's some question of whether Practiced Manifester increases your total bonus power points also. If it does, this is a very useful feat until you hit 10th level and gain Mental Pinnacle).
    Resources: Unlike their colleagues the Seekers, the Preservers are far more likely to be collegial. Although not all Preservers see eye-to-eye, you are likely to be on good terms with a few other Preservers who might be willing to help out in a pinch. Also, you have likely helped train many warriors of all sorts who might be nearby.
    Preservers of Future Swords in the world
    "The Preservers? Yeah I've heard of them. They have some very strange ideas. But definitely the people to go to if you want to learn how to fight fancy? Me I don't need all that. I just swing my sword and make it hurt a lot." - Benor Snarlbeard, A dwarven warblade talking about the Presevers

    Preservers are not widespread. The combination of both martial skill and psionic power is hard for many to achieve. Since psionics are so rare, most Preservers are simply identified as warriors with strange mystical powers. Few people will actually understand the nature of their abilities in any detail.

    Daily Life: Preservers spend much of their time training or exchanging martial techniques. They are likely to spend time with other martial adepts or other Preservers. Some travel to learn more or to spread their skills.

    Notables:
    Talona Blackblade is one of the strongest Preservers alive today. Unlike many Preservers who started out as psychic warriors or psions, Blackblade's psionic power stems from being a wilder. This has lead to her being uncomfortable with her lack of subtlety. Since she is also a half-elf, her place in society has always been precarious. Talona currently works with the Society of the Sanctified Mind (see Lords of Madness) to combat illithid infiltration. She has not joined the society, preferring to cooperate but not willing to join a larger organization that might put restrictions on her.

    Garlnat is a half-orc Preserver who is surprisingly intelligent for his species. He recently founded a new school to teach young swordsages, focusing on those who show possible signs of psionic ability. He currently is a strong proponent that the Preservers should form a more formal organization, but so far, he has few who have paid attention to that call.

    Temelain is a human Preserver who has studied the ways of the Preservers not for their ethical goal of passing on knowledge but simply because it seemed like a reasonable path to power for a young martial adept with psionic skill. He now works as a mercenary. He also is willing to use his abilities to train others in the ways of martial combat, but only if he is paid well. He hopes to one day settle down and become a permanent combat instructor for some private noble family. However, his willingness to work for whomever pays the most has earned him no small share of enemies and that makes his long-term goal less likely.

    Organizations: The Preservers have no formal organization for all of them but many of them use the Shared Mind to keep in touch with each other. Some of them arrange for regular meetings where they come together in groups to swap tidbits of martial lore. They are likely to join in with any organization that has psions or psychic warriors.

    NPC Reaction
    Preservers come across to most NPCs as skilled warriors. If they find out that one has psionic power as well, most are likely to simply be confused, having little to no understanding of such abilities. They may simply shrug and label you some sort of strange mage. In areas where psionics is feared or persecuted (such as some magocracies) you may need to keep your identity as a Preserver secret.

    People who are familiar with the Preservers will generally have a favorable attitude, knowing them most likely for their willingness to pass on useful knowledge.

    Preservers of Future Blades in the Game
    Like the Seekers, one of the primary advantages that Preservers have is flexibility. A Preserver can have almost any set of maneuvers if they think they will be useful to them that day. This can create an obvious headache for DMs in a manner similar to that created by wizards. However, martial maneuvers in general have far less power than spells and have much less out of combat utility.

    Adaptation: One could removal psionic aspect of Preservers and have them use standard magic or some other system. One could also make them more directly analogous to the Seekers, possibly transmitting martial skill by using necromancy to split off parts of their souls and embed them in willing recipients. One could also give them divine casting instead of manifesting and make them servants of some god of scholarship or battle.

    New Psionic Items

    Preserver's Orb
    A Preserver's Orb is a deep blue, crystalline dodecahedron. These orbs can be used to store knowledge of a martial maneuver. To do so, someone with the Give to the Future class feature must hold the orb and implant a single martial maneuver they know into the orb. Doing so takes a standard action and requires that they pay 1000 xp per a level of the maneuver to be implanted. An Orb once charged glows softly enough that one can notice the glow in dim lighting. In normal or bright light this glow takes a DC 20 spot check to notice. If an individual meeting the prerequisites of a maneuver implanted in an orb touches the orb, the orb telepathically whispers to them the name of the maneuver and gives them the option of gaining the maneuver. If they choose to do so, the Orb becomes expended and their mind is immediately modified to include the new maneuver as an extra maneuver known in every initiating class that they have. Maneuvers learned this way cannot be unlearned or modified by any method (such as a class feature to swap out maneuvers, or by the Psychic Reformulation power). An Orb may not store more than one maneuver at a time.

    Strong telepathy; ML 17th; Craft Universal Item, psychic chirgury, able to use a martial maneuver; Cost 6,000 gp + 2,500 XP; Price 18,500 gp.


    Martial Cognizance Crystal
    A martial cognizance crystal looks almost identical to a normal cognizance crystal. They will sometimes have a symbol of a sword embedded in them but otherwise look superficially identical to normal crystal. A martial adept can also use the crystal as a free action to refresh expended martial maneuvers. To do so, they must drain from the crystal 2 power points for every expended martial maneuver they wish to refresh. They otherwise function identically to a normal cognizance crystal. Martial cognizance crystals cost 10% more than normal cognizance crystals to make, but finding buyers willing to pay more for them may prove difficult since there are few who would benefit from the additional ability.

    Faint to strong psychokinesis; ML equal to maximum power point storage; Craft Cognizance Crystal, able to use a martial maneuver; Weight 1 lb.
    Last edited by JoshuaZ; 2010-03-03 at 10:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    You should make another column for Spellcasting, the way PrCs in the books usually do it. At first I thought you'd made a PrC that requires spellcasting but doesn't advance it, which is a huge no-no.

    Five maneuvers? That's an awful lot. Three is more typical. Especially since you need at least three levels of a prepared spellcasting class; Wizard/Swordsage works nicely, but Wizard/Warblade synergizes better and doesn't work as well. Cleric/Swordsage or Druid/Swordsage would work, though, I guess. But in general, that's a really tight requirement, leaving very little room for the player to do things a bit differently.

    And I'm really not sure about burning 1000 gp and a whole month. That seems like flavor that suddenly has a pricetag.

    Necromantic Penetration - Seems pretty solid, that will help a lot by 10. The limitation on not being able to use it more than once on one target is oddly worded, though - I assume you meant it doesn't stack? Why not just say "multiple uses of this ability does not stack, it only resets the duration"? Finally, this is pretty powerful. Limiting its uses per day seems like probably a good idea. That, or make it require expending a maneuver readied from the Narrow Bridge discipline or Shadow Hand discipline or something, a la Bloodstorm Blade's throwing thing.

    Learn What the Dead Knew - flavorful and awesome.

    Death's Quickness - why would I want to do that? I dunno, this sounds really niche. Also, you should perhaps make the Spellcraft bonus scale if you use higher level spell slots.

    Forensic Experience - Why not just let it tell you what killed the person? I mean, most of the time I think this going to be pretty obvious, making it somewhat less than useful.

    Martial Knowledge - +1 to a couple of skills? That's... really weak.

    Martial Channeling - why of a lower level? A spell slot of a given level is always much more powerful than a maneuver of the same level. This is true for a reason (you get maneuvers back, you don't get spell slots). I say make it of the same level. Also, why 1/day? I mean, this is pretty much always a bad deal, but you might as well be able to make that bad deal no matter what you do.

    Those restrictions would make a lot more sense if the process was reversed, expending a maneuver to cast a spell without using a slot. Then it should be lower level than the maneuver and should be limited in number of uses per day.

    Recover What Has Been Lost - This. Is. Awesome. Seriously. Extremely well done, worth taking the class just for this. So well done.

    Bonus Feat - bizarre list you have there. Are you even allowed to take Tomb-Tainted Soul after first level?

    Necromantic Insight - ok, sweet.

    Take Knowledge from Those Who Have Not Yet Died - That's really cool, I like that.

    Steal Spell Knowledge - On the one hand, compared to similar effects that are available, this is really powerful. On the other hand, considering how much the game should have a lot more effects just like this, I call this really good. I like it.

    Necrotic Channeling - Uhh... isn't this strictly weaker than Arcane Strike? Other than the Vile damage part. Also, shouldn't you get your Wisdom modifier on that Save DC, too? I mean, otherwise, the concept is quite solid, I just think you're offering too little damage to make it worthwhile.

    Martial-Necromantic Synergy - Very interesting, I could see going either way on this. Nice.

    Gift to Those Yet To Be - Uh... you die to give someone one maneuver? That sounds like a terrible trade. And it'd be damn hard to use this in a position where you're dying anyway (not to mention the fact that you can't get res'd, meaning you wouldn't want to anyway). This is fitting and all, but it's simply never, ever going to get used by anyone.

    True Enlightenment - Hmm, most likely these two numbers are pretty close. I'd do something like "any class level that does not add to your caster level, but adds to your initiator level, may add that amount to your caster level as well" and "any level that does not add as much to your initiator level as it does to your caster level, adds the full amount of the addition to your caster level to your initiator level."

    Or, "your initiator level and caster level become one and the same. No class level may add more than +1 to this level, but any level that adds to caster or initiator level may add to this level. Any bonus to caster or initiator level may be added to this level, but any bonus that affects both may only be added once. You may use this level for any effect that relies on caster level or initiator level."

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonWraith View Post
    You should make another column for Spellcasting, the way PrCs in the books usually do it. At first I thought you'd made a PrC that requires spellcasting but doesn't advance it, which is a huge no-no.
    Fixed.

    Five maneuvers? That's an awful lot. Three is more typical. Especially since you need at least three levels of a prepared spellcasting class
    Good point. Reduced to three maneuvers.

    [QUOTE]
    And I'm really not sure about burning 1000 gp and a whole month. That seems like flavor that suddenly has a pricetag.[QUOTE]

    Good point. Reducing to 50 gp and three days. So given normal down-time between campaigns one could reasonably do this.

    Necromantic Penetration - Seems pretty solid, that will help a lot by 10. The limitation on not being able to use it more than once on one target is oddly worded, though - I assume you meant it doesn't stack? Why not just say "multiple uses of this ability does not stack, it only resets the duration"? Finally, this is pretty powerful. Limiting its uses per day seems like probably a good idea. That, or make it require expending a maneuver readied from the Narrow Bridge discipline or Shadow Hand discipline or something, a la Bloodstorm Blade's throwing thing.
    Good point. Limited it to the wisdom modifier times daily.

    Death's Quickness - why would I want to do that? I dunno, this sounds really niche. Also, you should perhaps make the Spellcraft bonus scale if you use higher level spell slots.
    Hmm, maybe allow the change as a free action then?

    Forensic Experience - Why not just let it tell you what killed the person? I mean, most of the time I think this going to be pretty obvious, making it somewhat less than useful.
    Good point. That's been expanded. I'm not completely sure what the mechanic should be for figuring out what killed something in general. I've taken a stab.

    Martial Knowledge - +1 to a couple of skills? That's... really weak.
    Hmm, yeah. I'm just a little worried since some of the class features revolve around martial lore checks. I've bumped that up and have it bump at level four now.

    Martial Channeling - why of a lower level? A spell slot of a given level is always much more powerful than a maneuver of the same level. This is true for a reason (you get maneuvers back, you don't get spell slots). I say make it of the same level. Also, why 1/day? I mean, this is pretty much always a bad deal, but you might as well be able to make that bad deal no matter what you do.

    Those restrictions would make a lot more sense if the process was reversed, expending a maneuver to cast a spell without using a slot. Then it should be lower level than the maneuver and should be limited in number of uses per day.
    Good points. I've changed it so that it can be up to the level of the maneuver if going from spell to maneuver and use the limited form if other direction.

    Recover What Has Been Lost - This. Is. Awesome. Seriously. Extremely well done, worth taking the class just for this. So well done.
    Thank you.


    Bonus Feat - bizarre list you have there. Are you even allowed to take Tomb-Tainted Soul after first level?
    Hmm. Yeah that is a strange list. The thought process was stuff related to necromancy or stuff related to martial combat. I've pared the list down. I'm actually not sure that a bonus feat at this stage is actually necessary given the apparent power level. Thoughts?

    Necrotic Channeling - Uhh... isn't this strictly weaker than Arcane Strike? Other than the Vile damage part. Also, shouldn't you get your Wisdom modifier on that Save DC, too? I mean, otherwise, the concept is quite solid, I just think you're offering too little damage to make it worthwhile.
    Good point about the wisdom modifier. Added in. This was intended to be strictly weaker than Arcane Strike for the simple reason that this class can effectively get an indefinite number of maneuvers. But if you think its balanced I'll make it closer to Arcane Strike and up the damage level.

    Gift to Those Yet To Be - Uh... you die to give someone one maneuver? That sounds like a terrible trade. And it'd be damn hard to use this in a position where you're dying anyway (not to mention the fact that you can't get res'd, meaning you wouldn't want to anyway). This is fitting and all, but it's simply never, ever going to get used by anyone.
    Hmm, ok. So the use-length is an obvious problem. Presumably make it take a standard action. I was thinking of having it give multiple maneuvers. But I'm worried about possible cheese that could then result. Say for example, a thrallherd repeatedly getting new cohorts to sacrifice to themselves. I'm ok with this staying as purely flavorific and not likely to ever be used by a PC (maybe an old and dying one?). If you have any suggestions for how to get it to be a wortwhile sacrifice I'd be happy to hear them.

    True Enlightenment - Hmm, most likely these two numbers are pretty close. I'd do something like "any class level that does not add to your caster level, but adds to your initiator level, may add that amount to your caster level as well" and "any level that does not add as much to your initiator level as it does to your caster level, adds the full amount of the addition to your caster level to your initiator level."

    Or, "your initiator level and caster level become one and the same. No class level may add more than +1 to this level, but any level that adds to caster or initiator level may add to this level. Any bonus to caster or initiator level may be added to this level, but any bonus that affects both may only be added once. You may use this level for any effect that relies on caster level or initiator level."
    I like the second one. Yoinked.

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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    And second class is now up. so, um PEACH please?

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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    And bump! I'm pretty sure that the first class is in good shape. Need more input on the Preserver rather than the Seeker right now. I'm worried the central mechanic to swap out maneuvers is possibly overpowered. (It is modeled off of the Mage of the Arcane Order prc from Complete Arcane, but I consider that to be unambiguously too powerful so I've toned down the procedure here).
    Last edited by JoshuaZ; 2010-01-27 at 11:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    After the fall of the Temple of Nine Swords, much martial lore and many techniques were forgotten. Some say that some obscure disciplines which were known only to a few of the masters may have been completely lost.

    A group of swordsages reacted to this loss of knowledge. However, they disagreed on both techniques and ultimate goals. Some of them turned to the powers of necromancy to regain the lost martial skills of the dead while others used the powers of the mind to preserve the knowledge that still existed for future generations. Thus were born The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preservers of Future Blades.


    The Seekers of Lost Swords are a loosely affiliated group of necromancer-warriors who dedicate their power primarily to recovering lost martial power. The Preservers of Future Blades in contrast uses psionics to spread martial knowledge and preserve it for future generations. The two disagree with their methods and precise goals but most of them see eye-to-eye enough that members are more likely to consider themselves friendly rivals than anything else. Some of them even understand that their skills are complementary.

    Seeker of Lost Swords

    I contain within my soul the knowledge and skill of hundreds of masters who came before me. How can I not help but triumph? - Talmagat, a Seeker of Lost Swords before a duel with an Ebon Phoenix Mage
    Are Ebon Phoenix Mage's defined anywhere, or is the reader just supposed to sorta guess they are the Evil counterparts to Jade Phoenix Magi?
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    BECOMING A SEEKER OF LOST SWORDS

    ENTRY REQUIREMENTS

    Skills: Martial lore 8 ranks, knowledge(history) 5 ranks. 8 ranks in either knowledge(religion) or knowledge(arcana).
    The history requirement makes sense since you have to have the "phone book" to "ring" the spirits beyond.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Feats: Spell Focus(necromancy)
    Maneuvers: Able to use at least three martial maneuvers at least one of which is from The Narrow Bridge and is of at least second level. Knowledge of martial maneuvers from at least three different disciplines.
    The last sentence makes part of the first redundant, but I guess this makes it easier to change later.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post

    Spells: Able to cast a 2nd level necromancy spell
    Special: Must train with a Seeker of Lost Swords and then must consume a special special alchemical mixture from the ashes of a corpse of someone able to use martial maneuvers. The alchemical components aside from the corpse itself cost 100 gp and takes three days to prepare.
    How many potions can you make from one corpse? Does size matter? Can you use a Tittering Brick Squirrel (see my extended signature)?
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Class Skills
    The Seeker of Lost Swords's class skills (and the key ability for each
    skill) are Concentration (Con), Hide(Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge(arcana) (Int), Knowledge(history) (Int), Knowledge(religion) (Int), Martial Lore(Int), Sense Motive(Wis) Spellcraft (Int).

    Skills Points at Each Level: 2 + int

    Hit Dice: d6

    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spellcasting

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Necromantic Penetration, Learn What the Dead Knew|-

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Death's Quickness,Forensic Expertise| +1 of existing casting class

    3rd|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Recover that Which Has Been Lost, Martial Channeling 1/day|+1 of existing casting class

    4th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Martial Knowledge+2, Bonus Feat|+1 of existing casting class

    5th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Necromantic Insight|+1 of existing casting class

    6th|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Martial Channeling 2/day, Take Knowledge from Those Who Have Not Yet Died|+1 of existing casting class

    7th|
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Steal Spell Knowledge|+1 of existing casting class

    8th|
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |Necrotic Channeling, Martial Knowledge+4|+1 of existing casting class

    9th|
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |Martial-Necromantic Synergy,Martial Channeling 3/day|+1 of existing casting class

    10th|
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |True Enlightenment,Gift to Those Yet To Be|-[/table]

    Maneuvers: A Seeker of Lost Swords may take maneuvers from Diamond Mind, Narrow Bridge, Setting Sun and Shadow Hand, disciplines. Levels in Seeker of Lost Swords count full for calculating your initiator level.

    {table="head"]Level|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances Known
    1st|
    0
    |
    0
    |
    0

    2nd|
    1
    |
    0
    |
    1

    3rd|
    0
    |
    0
    |
    0

    4th|
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0

    5th|
    0
    |
    1
    |
    0

    6th|
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0

    7th|
    0
    |
    0
    |
    0

    8th|
    1
    |
    0
    |
    1

    9th|
    0
    |
    0
    |
    0

    10th|
    1
    |
    1
    |
    0
    [/table]

    Weapon Proficiencies: A Seeker of Lost Swords gains no proficiencies.
    Usually this line also covers armor and shields.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Spells: At ever level but 1st and 10th, when a new level of Seeker of Lost Swords is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class.
    Should be "every". Also, given that they are already have lost some caster levels (actually only one if they are human and go necromancer 4 first, then initiating class 1)... well, you MIGHT consider giving them casting progression even at prestige class level 1.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of Seeker of Lost Swords to the level of some other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly. If the character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a Seeker of Lost Swords, the player must decide to which class to add each Seeker of Lost Swords level for the purposes of determining spells per day and spells known.

    Necromantic Penetration (su)At 1st level, whenever you complete a successful martial strike against a target you may choose to use this ability. If you do so, for rounds equal to your initiator level you may choose to add your class level to your effective caster level for penetrating spell resistance for any necromancy spell, spell-like ability or other effect you have that is subject to spell resistance against that target.
    Reword this so that if you hit multiple targets, all of which have SR, and only one of them is one you hit like this, then this DOESN'T boost your caster level for all of them. Maybe use a wording along the lines of "That target's SR against necromancy spells and effects you originate is reduceds by your class level for a number of rounds equal to your initiator level."
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    When you use this ability you must specify that you are doing so against that target. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack, they only reset the duration. This ability stacks with any other ability that reduces spell resistance. This ability can be used up to your wisdom modifier number of times daily(min 1).
    I might allow this at-will... it is pretty specific, and requires two rounds to do properly unless you are quickening spells.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Learn What the Dead Knew (su):At 1st level , whenever you touch a corpse you gain an instinctive impression of whether the being had any martial prowess. You learn if it was capable of using maneuvers. You get to make martial lore checks to recognize every maneuver it knew just as if you had witnessed it performing them in life. You also get a +2 bonus on the check if it had the maneuver readied any point in the 24 hours before its death this becomes a +4 bonus if it had the maneuver readied or active the time of its death. This takes a standard action, and there is no retry for recognizing maneuvers this way. For all purposes, this is a supernatural necromantic effect of 3rd level with effective caster level equal to your initiator level. This may only be used on beings who have been dead no more than weeks equal to your wisdom modifier (min 1). At 3rd level this may extend out to 1 month per your wisdom modifier (min 1) and at 5th level months becomes years. At 7th level years becomes decades and at 9th level decades become centuries.
    Very flavorful and RP useful, since having seen it done should give bonuses to re-creating it, as opposed to only working from second hand-descriptions. For most PCs this is going to be utterly useless, but that is perfectly fine. Also, gives the sense of having gained power slowly for the later ability that actually lets you learn new maneuvers outright.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Deaths Quickness (su): At 2nd level, whenever in any Narrow Bridge
    You need the word "stance" here.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    you may sacrifice a spell slot of at least 2nd level to switch to another Narrow Bridge stance as a free action rather than the usual swift action.
    Allow this to happen even when it isn't your turn (but maybe only once per day), and you will really be cooking with gas.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Also, while in any Narrow Bridge stance you get an insight bonus on all spellcraft checks related to necromancy spells and effects equal to half your class level.

    Forensic Expertise (ex): At 2nd level, familiarity with martial ability and death gives you the ability to tell whether a being died violently. If you see a corpse that is less than 1 week old and reasonably well-preserved you can spend 1 minute examining it. If you do, you will know if the being died from combat and if so from what. This ability allows you notice very subtle signs even those that would not be obvious to the untrained eye (such as if they were killed by say a Phantom Killer or a Finger of Death). If they were killed by an obscure effect you may need to make some form of check to idenity it in detail beyond the broad nature of how it killed them.
    Defining "obscure" could be a nightmare for GMs... but it also gives them some wiggle room where the plot demands it.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    For spell you may make a spellcraft check to recognize the spell as if you had just witnessed it to determine what spell killed them.
    Should be "spells".
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    If they were killed by a martial maneuver you may make a Martial Lore check to determine what
    Sentence fragment.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Similar checks apply to other forms of magical effects.
    You already covered magic... do you mean something along the lines of psi-craft checks for psionics?
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Failure on such checks does not prevent one from determining the broad cause of death (thus, one would still for example be able to see that someone was killed by magical fire even if one couldn't tell that it was a fireball).
    This is a useful ability and encourages preparation by giving little hints about some potential enemies. Spell Immunity may see more use at higher levels, especially against BBEG sorcerers.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Martial Channeling (ex): You have learned to channel necromantic energy to further push the limits of your martial abilities. At 3rd level, you may once a day sacrifice a prepared necromancy spell or a spell slot capable of being used for a necromancy spell to initiate a Narrow Bridge maneuver you know that is either expended.
    Unnecessary period.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    not readied or not granted. The maneuver must of level no higher than the level of the spell sacrificed. This ability can be used any number of times daily.
    Fun. Bypassing unreadied and not-granted, is pretty boss, but you are expending a slow-renewing resource for a fast renewing one, so I guess it is OK.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post


    Additionally, you may instead channel martial power to substitute for necromancy spells. When you use this ability you expend a readied maneuver to cast a necromancy spell. If you use spell slots then this does not consume the normal spell slot. If you use prepared spells then you must have a copy of the spell prepared but the prepared copy is not consumed. The maneuver expended must be of level strictly larger than the level of the spell. You can use this ability once daily at 3rd level, twice daily at 6th and 3 times daily at 9th level.
    Thought you were going to mess things up here, but "strictly lower level" MAY solve that... I don't think that converting spells into maneuvers should be limited in times per day, but the reverse might need to be limited.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Recover that Which Has Been Lost(su): At 3rd level, you learn how to perform a powerful necromantic ritual which takes martial knowledge from the dead. This ritual takes 1 hour and requires special incense worth 250 gp, and a corpse of a martial adept. The ritual must must be performed at night during which you burn the corpse with a mix of the incense and chant for one hour. If the process is interrupted at any point you must make a DC 20 concentration check or the ritual fails with the corpse still being destroyed. Each subsequent interruption increases the DC of this check by 1.

    At the end of the ritual, you immediately gain full knowledge of which maneuvers were known to the dead being as if had used Learn What the Dead Knew ability and had succeeded on all the martial lore checks. For each maneuver they knew you make a martial lore check with DC equal to the recognition DC that you would normally need to use Learn What the Dead Knew. Of the maneuvers that you succeed on this check, you may select one. This maneuver must be of level no higher than the highest level maneuver you can use -2. (At 6th level this becomes no higher than the highest level you can use -1 and at 10th level may be up to the the
    highest level you can use.) You pay 1000 xp per a
    Remove the word "a" at least.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    level of this maneuver and gain it as an additional maneuver known in all martial classes you have.
    Given that, by the standard mechanic used on these boards, you can learn a whole new discpline for 1000 xp if you can find the right teacher, PCs are mostly only going to use this to dip for maneuvers whose pre-requisites they don't meet, if that... also DID you intend for this to bypass pre-requisites? I don't think it should bypass alignment restrictions, but I do think it should bypass "maneuvers known" type pre-requisites. Miscellanious pre-requisites such as "must be currently possessed by a fiend" are borderline to me.

    In any case, CONSIDER dropping the XP cost... then again, this does let you grab up 1st level stances (most of which stay useful at higher levels), like candy at higher levels.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post

    You must sometime in the next week set aside 8 hours for training and meditating with the new maneuver, during which time you must make a skill check in the skill associated with the discipline the maneuver is from (DC 10 + the maneuver level), to be able to gain the maneuver. You may repeat this process any number of times in that week until you gain the maneuver. If you fail every attempt before the week is up, you still lose the xp but do not gain the maneuver.

    If you do gain the maneuver you also gain the associated class skill as a Seeker of Lost Sword's class skill, and are treated as having the maneuver's discipline as a valid discipline for any martial class or PRC that you can gain maneuvers in.

    Maneuvers gained using Recover that Which Has Been Lost cannot be replaced by any form of retraining ability.

    Good or neutral Seekers of Lost Swords are likely to attempt to commune with the spirit of the corpse in question before using this ability, or if that is not an option, to gain permission from the next of kin before performing the ritual. Evil Seekers may go out of their way to use this ability on fallen enemies.
    Interesting take... I play Good as being a bit more hard-core than that... my Good characters believe in genocide of "Always Chaotic Evil" races (the do keep out an eye for Drizzt type exceptions and try to protect them though). As for disturbing the body, that is just good sense to do to every major foe who wasn't tragically mislead or something (in a world wear revivification spells exist...).
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Martial Knowledge (ex) At 4th level, your extensive study of past martial masters gives you a +2 bonus to all Martial Lore checks and all Knowledge(History) checks. At 8th level this becomes a +4 bonus.
    Nice little bonus.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Bonus Feat: At 4th level, a Seeker of Lost Swords may gain as a bonus feat, Martial Necromancy(see below), Martial Study or any feat that requires a Narrow Bridge maneuver.
    Will have to look at Martial Necromancy and see what feats fall under the third catagory before I can do this. Still, Martial Study is nothing to sneeze at since you can use it to dip outside disciplines.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Necromantic Insight(su) You can sense the remnants of very faint necromantic auras. Whenever you touch a corpse you know instinctively if the corpse was ever animated or turned into an undead or deathless being.. This ability also tell you if the apparent corpse touched is actually an undead or deathless playing dead (by not moving).
    The wide variety of pants wetting moments that could be induced by the part in the last sentence makes my GM side squee. Excellently flavorful ability.

    Going to stop here for the moment...
    Best homebrew:
    Grace-Gift - Truly Defensive base class, Falling Anvil Discipline - Loony Slapstick as Martial Art, Mepholk - Snuggly skunk-people. , Wing Dragon Masters of flight Comment HERE, Organ Undead Mega-Thread livers, skins, etc.
    Filk: 4000 Years(to live)
    Running: Ruceeglaelsktinag: "Justifiable Genocide", Contradiction in terms? IC OOC Active Map: None.
    For everything else see: Full list of Homebrew.
    My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Are Ebon Phoenix Mage's defined anywhere, or is the reader just supposed to sorta guess they are the Evil counterparts to Jade Phoenix Magi?
    They are mentioned as a possible variation in ToB and Krimm (of course) made a version. Hmm, that may be needlessly distracting. Maybe I should replace that with just talking to something more standard like a Crusader of Erythnul.

    The last sentence makes part of the first redundant, but I guess this makes it easier to change later.
    Hmm, I've been swapping around the requirements a bit so I'll maybe go and make that non-redundant.

    How many potions can you make from one corpse? Does size matter? Can you use a Tittering Brick Squirrel (see my extended signature)?
    Hmm, good point. I think I'll specify a creature of at least small size and no more than 1 per a creature.



    Should be "every". Also, given that they are already have lost some caster levels (actually only one if they are human and go necromancer 4 first, then initiating class 1)... well, you MIGHT consider giving them casting progression even at prestige class level 1.
    I'm not sure about this. I'll leave it alone for now. The comparison I'm using is the Jade Phoenix Mage. I don't want this to gain many more caster levels than that. I'll need to think about that/get more input from people.

    Reword this so that if you hit multiple targets, all of which have SR, and only one of them is one you hit like this, then this DOESN'T boost your caster level for all of them. Maybe use a wording along the lines of "That target's SR against necromancy spells and effects you originate is reduceds by your class level for a number of rounds equal to your initiator level."
    I might allow this at-will... it is pretty specific, and requires two rounds to do properly unless you are quickening spells.
    Good points. Modified as such and made to at will.

    Very flavorful and RP useful, since having seen it done should give bonuses to re-creating it, as opposed to only working from second hand-descriptions. For most PCs this is going to be utterly useless, but that is perfectly fine. Also, gives the sense of having gained power slowly for the later ability that actually lets you learn new maneuvers outright.
    Glad you like it.

    You need the word "stance" here.
    Allow this to happen even when it isn't your turn (but maybe only once per day), and you will really be cooking with gas.
    Hmm. In that case, should probably take an immediate action. Modified accordingly.

    Defining "obscure" could be a nightmare for GMs... but it also gives them some wiggle room where the plot demands it.
    Should be "spells".
    Sentence fragment.You already covered magic... do you mean something along the lines of psi-craft checks for psionics?
    That's exactly the example I was thinking of, and wanted it to be broad enough such that one could include other systems if necessary. I've put psicraft in explicitly as an example.

    Fun. Bypassing unreadied and not-granted, is pretty boss, but you are expending a slow-renewing resource for a fast renewing one, so I guess it is OK.
    Thought you were going to mess things up here, but "strictly lower level" MAY solve that... I don't think that converting spells into maneuvers should be limited in times per day, but the reverse might need to be limited.
    As written that's the case since the first part is daily use and the second part is restricted.


    Given that, by the standard mechanic used on these boards, you can learn a whole new discpline for 1000 xp if you can find the right teacher, PCs are mostly only going to use this to dip for maneuvers whose pre-requisites they don't meet, if that... also DID you intend for this to bypass pre-requisites? I don't think it should bypass alignment restrictions, but I do think it should bypass "maneuvers known" type pre-requisites. Miscellanious pre-requisites such as "must be currently possessed by a fiend" are borderline to me.
    Ah, but this allows you to pick up maneuvers as additional maneuvers. In The Demented One's system, you pay 1000 xp, and get the ability to gain new maneuvers in that discipline and swap out existing maneuvers for those. This just gives you new maneuvers. It also takes less time and doesn't require you to find a living person who knows it. Since there's no cap on the maximum number of maneuvers gained using this ability, I think the heavy xp cost is balanced with Demented's one system.

    In any case, CONSIDER dropping the XP cost... then again, this does let you grab up 1st level stances (most of which stay useful at higher levels), like candy at higher levels.
    Yes, and since you can expend low level spell slots to switch stances this becomes all the more relevant.

    Interesting take... I play Good as being a bit more hard-core than that... my Good characters believe in genocide of "Always Chaotic Evil" races (the do keep out an eye for Drizzt type exceptions and try to protect them though). As for disturbing the body, that is just good sense to do to every major foe who wasn't tragically mislead or something (in a world wear revivification spells exist...).
    Well, once the body is destroyed, a raise dead isn't going to work. Anyways, it is just fluff. I could see a good character not caring at all, or seeing this as a "well, we needed to burn the body to make it harder to resurrect him, might as well burn him this way." This could have a lot of leeway which is why I said "likely." Some people don't like playing good characters that do things which make people go squick also, so it alleviates that somewhat. But YMMV.


    Will have to look at Martial Necromancy and see what feats fall under the third catagory before I can do this. Still, Martial Study is nothing to sneeze at since you can use it to dip outside disciplines.
    Unless someone has homebrewed additional feats that work with Narrow Bridge that I'm not aware of, the only such feats are feats like Blade Meditation(Narrow Bridge) and the like.


    Going to stop here for the moment...
    Very good points. Thanks for the input so far.

  9. - Top - End - #9
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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    I would actuallly leave the Ebon Phoenix Mage thing in there, especially now that I have found the mention you point out.
    Best homebrew:
    Grace-Gift - Truly Defensive base class, Falling Anvil Discipline - Loony Slapstick as Martial Art, Mepholk - Snuggly skunk-people. , Wing Dragon Masters of flight Comment HERE, Organ Undead Mega-Thread livers, skins, etc.
    Filk: 4000 Years(to live)
    Running: Ruceeglaelsktinag: "Justifiable Genocide", Contradiction in terms? IC OOC Active Map: None.
    For everything else see: Full list of Homebrew.
    My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.

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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    I would actuallly leave the Ebon Phoenix Mage thing in there, especially now that I have found the mention you point out.
    Ok. Put it back. I don't feel strongly about it either way.

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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    I like these a lot. However, "Gift to those yet to be" apears to be something that flavour says should happen a lot, yet mechanically isn't likely to be a good idea. Maybe they can be raised, but if they are the manuever is removed from the memory of the one they imparted it to or something like that.

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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sereg View Post
    I like these a lot. However, "Gift to those yet to be" apears to be something that flavour says should happen a lot, yet mechanically isn't likely to be a good idea. Maybe they can be raised, but if they are the manuever is removed from the memory of the one they imparted it to or something like that.
    Hmm, I'll think about it. Currently I've just upped the bonus so that it actually isn't just giving a single maneuver. I'm not sure that allowing ressurection and then having the maneuver removed is a good idea since it means that anyone who sacrificed themselves will then be in a bit of a dilemma about whether to accept a raising or not.

    Edit: Maybe they should lose two levels if resurrected? That would make it unlikely to be used by PCs but not as unreasonable. I mean, I'm still not sure. I sort of think of it as the sort of thing used when a Preserver is getting very old and clearly isn't going to live much longer.
    Last edited by JoshuaZ; 2010-02-16 at 12:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Take Knowledge from Those Who Have Not Yet Died(su): At 6th level, you gain a special strike that allows you to rip away martial knowledge of stances from targets even as they are still alive.
    Either say this belongs to the Narrow Bridge discipline or (more likely) put in the standard boiler-plate about the strike not belonging to any discipline.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    This strike takes a standard action to initiate. When you use this strike the foe hit takes an extra 5d6 damage
    I really don't like special purpose maneuvers that also do extra damage for the sole purpose of making it so you aren't wasting a slot if you don't run up against the type of creature/situation they deal with (which is a valid concern). Often times, there may be no good way around it. In this case however, I think I might have a an idea... you are stealing knowledge of how to fight, right? So say that if they aren't currently in a stance, it drops their BAB by 4 (or some other number) for the same duration, but has not benefit to you... notice I didn't say it gives a penalty to hit (although it does do that), I said it drops their BAB, so they might lose iterative attacks or even feats that depend on BAB and MAYBE even access to PrC class abilities if they no longer make the BAB requirement (but including the BAB they got from the class itself to see if they still qualify for the class). If you think that is too complicated (and like a lot of my ideas it trades simplicity for flavor), then say it doesn't effect feats, just to-hit and iterative attacks (and maybe the caps on feats like Power Attack).
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    and must make a will save (DC 15 + wisdom modifier).
    Increase the save DC probably with the above change. This also increases the implied maneuver level of the strike (which you should explicitly list).
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    If they fail the save, they immediately lose whatever stance they are in, cannot take that stance for 2d6 rounds and you may assume that stance as a free action lasting the whole 2d6 rounds (even if you would not normally meet the prerequisites for the stance). If you use this ability, this additional stance does not count against your maximum number of stances you may be in. If this strike kills the foe, then you may instead assume the stance for up to 24 hours.
    If you make my above-suggested change, then change this to "If you strike the killing blow on them within the 2d6 rounds (including with the same hit as took the stance) then you may instead assume the stance for up to 24 hours." You also might increase the duration or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Multiple uses of this strike do not stack. Repeated use simply removes whatever prior stance was gained from this strike if you choose to use the new stance.
    Good catch.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Steal Spell Knowledge(su): Your skill at gaining martial knowledge has extended to gaining other forms of power as well.

    At 7th level, you gain a special strike that allows you to take knowledge of spells. This strike takes a standard action to initiate. You make a melee attack. Your target must make a will save (DC 15 + your wisdom modifier ) or lose 1d6 randomly prepared spells lost from each spellcasting class that prepares spells.
    So it whiffs against spontaneous casters and is especially effective against Paladins and Rangers?
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    You become aware of what spells were lost that are on any of your spell casting class lists that are of a level that you can cast (Dread Necromancers using this ability treat all sor/wiz and all cleric spells as on the class list).
    Don't know much about Dread Necromancers, but that seems to give them a significant advantage...
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    If any of the spells are of a level you can cast you may pick one and store it. You may cast the prepared copy just as if you had a prepared copy. Spells stolen in this form fade after rounds equal to your 1/2th your initiator level + primary spellcasting ability modifier(if you have multiple spellcasting classes you must decide which to assign the stolen spell). You cast the spell as if it were with being cast by you using that class. Thus, you use your primary ability modifier and caster stats. Stealing a divine spell makes it effectively an arcane spell for example if you are casting using an arcane casting class. For all purposes, this is a 5th level strike.
    Why does it become arcane? The entry requirements for the PrC seem made for either arcane or divine entry...
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Necrotic Channeling(su):You can channel arcane energy into your blade causing wounds to fester with undeath. At 8th level, when you use a martial strike, you may sacrifice a spell slot or prepared spell. If you do, the strike deals extra d6 damage die equal to the spell level or the maneuver level, whichever is lower. The target must make a fortitude equal to 10 + the spell level sacrificed + your wisdom modifier. On a failed save, half this additional damage becomes vile damage as undead flesh forms in the wound. If you use this ability together with The Flesh Crawls maneuver then all the undead flesh becomes animated as per how that maneuver normally operates.
    I don't know how either vile damage or "The Flesh Crawls" works... is "the Flesh Crawls" from Narrow Bridge? If so, then I don't remember it.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Martial-Necromantic Synergy(su): You have learned to substitute necromantic power for martial flexibility and vice-versa. At 9th level, you may when making your morning preparations you may chose one of the following options:

    1) Reduce your maximum number of maneuvers you may have readied by 1. If you do so, you may pick one spell casting class you have and add for that day an extra spell slot of level one less than the highest level you have in that class. This slot can only be used for necromancy spells.

    2) You may remove a spell slot of the highest level you can cast in a class. If you do so, you may increase the number of maneuvers you may have readied by 1, but this extra maneuver readied must be from The Narrow Bridge.

    You may only choose one of these on any given day. Once chosen, this choice lasts for 24 hours.
    I think I like this flavor-wise. The second option is much more powerful(especially for Warblade types), since it is re-usuable, and not limited in level.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Gift to Those Yet To Be(su): Although many say that the Seekers of Lost Swords look only to the past this is not completely the case. They understand that even masters of necromancy and martial arts such as themselves will one day grow old and feeble. Thus, they developed this power to ensure that the knowledge they recovered would not be lost forever.

    At 10th level, you gain the ability to sacrifice yourself in a burst of necromantic magic to permanently pass on some of your martial prowess to another individual. This process takes 1 full minute and a willing participant whom you are touching throughout the process. At the end of the process, you die and the maneuver selected by you at the beginning of the process becomes known to the participant. The maneuver is known to them as an extra maneuver for any martial class they have. Moreover, they are treated as having gone through the training necessary to learn maneuvers from that class just as if they had paid the usual 1000 xp cost and trained with you. They also gain a +1 necromantic bonus to all martial lore checks.

    The maneuver cannot be used until they know at least one other maneuver of that level and meet the normal prerequisites for that maneuver. It otherwise remains locked in their minds.

    The target also automatically gains sufficient experience to gain a level and put them halfway to their next level. This additional level must be taken in either swordsage or warblade. The powerful necromantic magic used in this process permanently severs your soul from the material plane, leaving it impossible for you to be resurrected by any means short of divine intervention.
    Consider making this also automatically trigger to any target, regardless of range (even on another plane) upon your death of old age. In fact, being able to do the ritual without the person present would be a nice touch in my opinion, although in that case you might say that if, after the level gain, they can't learn the maneuver than it is wasted. I don't care that PCs wouldn't use this, it is still very very flavorful, and
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    True Enlightenment(ex): At 10th level you have gained true understanding of the awesome and mysterious connections between necromancy and martial skill. Your initiator level and caster level become one and the same. No class level may add more than +1 to this level, but any level that adds to caster or initiator level may add to this level. Any bonus to caster or initiator level may be added to this level, but any bonus that affects both may only be added once. You may use this level for any effect that relies on caster level or initiator level.
    This capstone really helps with your progression after this class (as opposed to remaining single-classed throughout your entire carrier), and I guess the caster and initiator level jumps are enough of a capstone. Does this grant additional spells/maneuvers/stances known?
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Playing A Seeker of Lost Swords

    Seekers vary greatly in their attitudes and approaches. Some Seekers are dark warriors who have turned to dark powers to suit their own ends.
    Repeating the word "dark" so quickly is rather schlocky... try "necromantic" for the second one?
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Other seekers are those who seek to recover lost knowledge, valuing knowledge above all else. Some seekers use the power for good.
    Try taking on "seeking only more strength to fight evil, and, at the last, to pass on a gift to some other worthy champion of righteousness".
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Combat: <Snip>
    Sounds good.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Advancement: <Snip> While other mages might become ecstatic at finding the tomb of a fallen wizard, you will be more likely to see out that of a great warrior, hoping to plunder from the body the warrior's true secrets.
    Typo. Should be "seek".
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Resources: The Seekers have no particular shared resources. Although a Seeker might belong to a regular guild of mages or necromancers or possibly belong to some military group.

    Seekers of Lost Swords in the world
    "The guy looked like some sort of weakling wizard. I was all ready for him to use his nefarious magics on me but he just drew a sword and the next thing I knew I was bleeding in four places." Tindarsin, a dwarven fighter commenting on his encounter with a Seeker of Lost Swords.

    Daily Life: Many Seekers are mercenaries or adventurers. Their abilities do not fit well with a sedentary life. A normal mage can spend years in his tower studying magic but if a Seeker wishes to improve he must go out and search for dead or dying adepts.
    Notables:

    Talmagat is a crusader-Seeker who has traveled widely to defeat evil and improve his martial skills. He is willing to use the corpses of evil adepts without any hesitation but he is careful to seek permission from others. He has been known to show up when an old martial adept lays dying, to seek their permission to use their corpse so that their martial power is not lost. He seems to be supernaturally gifted at finding out when their death is near and some speculate that he uses divination magic to find dying adepts.

    Benota Tan is a young but very powerful Jade Phoenix Mage. She has recently become interested in using the Seeker's powers to recover martial knowledge from some of her old bodies. Since she remembers where multiple of these bodies are, this could potentially give her great power. So far, her attempts to convince the other Jade Phoenix Mages that this is a worthwhile task have not succeeded. They have dismissed her ideas as not useful (in so far as Jade Phoenix Mages rarely have long-lifespans anyways) and regard them as possibly too dangerous given the inherent temptations involved in using such necromancy.
    I really like this character concept. Talmagat is nice too.
    Temeth is by all accounts an evil swordsage who spends most of his time tracking down martial adepts who thinks he can get away with killing, challenging them to duels, and then desecrating their corpses to plunder their martial secrets.
    Pretty obvious one... but worth mentioning, since otherwise people would wonder why you DIDN'T include it.
    Ran Targat is a half-elf swordsage wizard. He is possibly the most skilled Seeker alive and he is known for his great knowledge of magic as well as his knowledge of martial lore. He cares little for morality, taking a studied pragmatism and dedication to the pursuit of knowledge above all else. He is however aging, and is looking for someone to pass on his greatest secrets to.
    Fairly standard, but some people might not be familiar with the trope (so you are doing good to include it).
    Organizations: While the Seekers of Lost Swords are at least nominally affiliated with each other in so far as they are all dedicated to recovering martial knowledge, many of them grow secretive about the knowledge they have. It does not take much for a Seeker to realize that the people with the most incentive to kill a Seeker of Lost Swords are other Seekers who can then steal martial skills from the defeated Seeker.
    Hmmm.... some attempts at internal policing might be made from time to time.
    The Seeker will in most circumstances not play very differently than any other gish using martial maneuvers. However, they are more unpredictable since they have access to many different maneuvers. Thus, DM's may have trouble predicting exactly what they expect a Seeker to do. A Seeker can if they really need to, use almost any maneuver they know. Also, if a party faces a martial adept with obscure or cool maneuvers, you are practically giving the Seeker extra fun if the Seeker manages to get access to the corpse. If a Seeker is likely to get extra maneuvers from an encounter, it may make sense to reduce the amount of treasure that is found that corresponds to Seeker accordingly. However, this treasure reduction should not be severe since the Seeker still needs to pay xp to gain new maneuvers.
    I would advise making the obvious comparisons to allowing the party wizard to loot the spellbook of a fallen mage who has unusual spells.
    Adaptation: Seekers could be adapted to instead of using necromancy to more directly commune with the spirits of warriors past.
    Binder or Incarnum or whatever that is you mean?
    Alternatively, one could completely remove the aspect related to death and allow them to learn new maneuvers from martial scripts.
    What would you do with the maneuver/spell stealing abilities in that case? Leave them unchanged?

    New feats:

    Martial-Necromancy
    You have learned how to channel some of your martial skill into undead you create.
    Prerequisites: Able to use a 2nd level martial maneuver, able to use some method to create undead, animate undead, or to give intelligence to unintelligent undead. Martial Lore 5 ranks, Knowledge(religion) 2 ranks.
    Benefit: Whenever you use any ability that creates undead or gives existing unintelligent undead intelligence (such as the Awaken Undead spell), you may choose to give the undead a copy of the Martial Study feat. If you do, you decide what maneuver to assign, which must be a maneuver which you know. Note that generally unintelligent undead can only use maneuvers if they are given explicit instructions to do so.
    Interesting... I think I like this.



    I shall review the other PrC at some other time.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2010-02-16 at 05:36 PM.
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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Consider making this also automatically trigger to any target, regardless of range (even on another plane) upon your death of old age. In fact, being able to do the ritual without the person present would be a nice touch in my opinion, although in that case you might say that if, after the level gain, they can't learn the maneuver than it is wasted.
    I like this idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ
    Maybe they should lose two levels if resurrected? That would make it unlikely to be used by PCs but not as unreasonable. I mean, I'm still not sure. I sort of think of it as the sort of thing used when a Preserver is getting very old and clearly isn't going to live much longer.
    This might also work.

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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Either say this belongs to the Narrow Bridge discipline or (more likely) put in the standard boiler-plate about the strike not belonging to any discipline.
    Good catch.

    I really don't like special purpose maneuvers that also do extra damage for the sole purpose of making it so you aren't wasting a slot if you don't run up against the type of creature/situation they deal with (which is a valid concern). Often times, there may be no good way around it. In this case however, I think I might have a an idea... you are stealing knowledge of how to fight, right? So say that if they aren't currently in a stance, it drops their BAB by 4 (or some other number) for the same duration, but has not benefit to you... notice I didn't say it gives a penalty to hit (although it does do that), I said it drops their BAB, so they might lose iterative attacks or even feats that depend on BAB and MAYBE even access to PrC class abilities if they no longer make the BAB requirement (but including the BAB they got from the class itself to see if they still qualify for the class). If you think that is too complicated (and like a lot of my ideas it trades simplicity for flavor), then say it doesn't effect feats, just to-hit and iterative attacks (and maybe the caps on feats like Power Attack).
    Yes, that is more complicated. It is also awesome. So yeah, definitely taking that. I've made a mix with that.

    Increase the save DC probably with the above change. This also increases the implied maneuver level of the strike (which you should explicitly list).
    Hmm, is 16 enough? I'm not sure what to put it at 16 and a 6th level maneuver seems reasonable.

    If you make my above-suggested change, then change this to "If you strike the killing blow on them within the 2d6 rounds (including with the same hit as took the stance) then you may instead assume the stance for up to 24 hours." You also might increase the duration or something.
    Hmm, I'm not sure I like that since the flavor is sort of that you are pulling out lifeforce to keep it for longer. But balance wise that seems not unreasonable so done.


    So it whiffs against spontaneous casters and is especially effective against Paladins and Rangers?
    Hmm, good point. Changed so that it still burns the spell slots but doesn't give you any spell access. (Maybe take random spells that they could cast of that level and use those instead? This seems unnecessarily complicated. Thoughts?)

    Don't know much about Dread Necromancers, but that seems to give them a significant advantage...
    Do'h. Missing a word there. Should be "treat all sor/wiz and all cleric necromancy spells as on the class list" which reflects the weird way that DNs have access to all those spells potentially.

    Why does it become arcane? The entry requirements for the PrC seem made for either arcane or divine entry...
    Poor wording on my part. I meant that your copy of the spell is cast as the type your class casts. That's to prevent cheese of the "look! I can cast divine spells now. I qualify for these fun PrCs" or the reverse with arcane casting.

    I don't know how either vile damage or "The Flesh Crawls" works... is "the Flesh Crawls" from Narrow Bridge? If so, then I don't remember it.
    Yes, it is from Narrow Bridge. It forms undead flesh in a wound and causes the flesh to move uncomfortably and produce other unpleasant results. Added a note that it is in Narrow Bridge for convenience.

    I think I like this flavor-wise. The second option is much more powerful(especially for Warblade types), since it is re-usuable, and not limited in level.
    Yeah, part of the thought process is that I want the class to emphasize the martial side more than the necromancy side so making the tradeoff in most circumstances favor the martial side seems the way to go.

    Consider making this also automatically trigger to any target, regardless of range (even on another plane) upon your death of old age. In fact, being able to do the ritual without the person present would be a nice touch in my opinion, although in that case you might say that if, after the level gain, they can't learn the maneuver than it is wasted. I don't care that PCs wouldn't use this, it is still very very flavorful, and
    Hmm, I'm not sure I favor that completely especially because it means that the old sage can chose someone they barely know (oh yeah, I'll go give it to that Paladin I vaguely heard of a few years ago. He could use it.) I think to balance it I'll add instead a 10 minute ritual which allows you to designate someone as the person who gets it in event of your death due to old age, but they need to be present for that ritual. What do you think of that?

    This capstone really helps with your progression after this class (as opposed to remaining single-classed throughout your entire carrier), and I guess the caster and initiator level jumps are enough of a capstone. Does this grant additional spells/maneuvers/stances known?
    No it does not. Clarified that it doesn't. That would be potentially very broken if it did. (And hard to define given how maneuvers gained aren't connected directly to initiator level).

    Repeating the word "dark" so quickly is rather schlocky... try "necromantic" for the second one?
    Yeah, just wait until a write about the associated artifact, the Evil Dark Glove of Inky Nasty Blackness...

    Try taking on "seeking only more strength to fight evil, and, at the last, to pass on a gift to some other worthy champion of righteousness".
    Much better. Yoinked.

    I really like this character concept. Talmagat is nice too.
    Yeah, I think I might actually play something like Benota. Unfortunately, to reasonably do it one needs to be a fairly high level, and the dual caster loss from both Jade Phoenix and this might potentially hurt.

    Hmmm.... some attempts at internal policing might be made from time to time.
    Good point. Noted.

    I would advise making the obvious comparisons to allowing the party wizard to loot the spellbook of a fallen mage who has unusual spells.
    Good point.

    Binder or Incarnum or whatever that is you mean?
    Yeah, I should make that explicit. I was sort of thinking Incarnum. One could actually still make it necromancy also but reflavor to communing with spirits rather than ripping knowledge out of corpses.

    What would you do with the maneuver/spell stealing abilities in that case? Leave them unchanged?
    Yeah, I don't know. I guess replace them. But I'm not sure with what. I'll just leave that as given unless someone else comes up with anything. The corpse related abilities would need to go also then. I've expanded that a bit but not given any serious direction. Any suggestions are welcome.


    I shall review the other PrC at some other time.
    Thanks very much. Your input has been very helpful. This PrC is looking much more reasonable and well done now.

    I haven't made up my mind whether the die-and-no-res should instead be loss of two class levels.

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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    Alright, just looking at the Seeker right now, but I plan on examining the Preserver soon.

    The class's crunch deals exclusively with Narrow Bridge, but requires knowledge of a variety of maneuvers and grants four different disciplines. I get that the variety is necessary for the fluff, but were I taking the class, I would be taking as many Narrow Bridge maneuvers as possible and pretty much ignoring the others, especially given the limited maneuvers known. Consider broadening a lot of the abilities, or tweaking the fluff to make them preservers but not practicers?

    That first level sucks. The class seems fine as long as I'm starting at a high enough level that I can already be in the class, but the first level I get no BAB, no spells, no maneuvers, lowest skills and a d6 hit die... all I really get is +2 Will, and the ability to somewhat penetrate SR. They *really* need something to justify the lack of casting level and no maneuvers. Or, a level of casting and/or maneuvers.

    Just a general note, this class has a lot of daily abilities. Normally I try to shy away from those. However, given that this is a casting class, casters are already built of daily abilities, so it's probably fine. Just, throwing that out there.

    The Spellcraft bonus doesn't seem to fit the flavor of "Death's Quickness." Consider tacking it on to Martial-Necromancy?

    When using Recover that Which Has Been Lost, it would be horrible to actually fail a week's worth of checks. I can't imagine someone using it unless they were certain they would succeed, in which case the chance of failure is irrelevant. Consider letting them make the check as often as possible, with the penalty for failure being the time period they can't use it.

    I agree entirely with DracoDei's notes on Take Knowledge from Those Who Have Not Yet Died. Also, the names, could maybe use some work? Some of them are a little long and specific.

    Martial-Necromantic Synergy is spiffylicious, I like it.

    10th level also seems a little lacking. The caster/initiator level boost is nice, but since it costs me a spellcasting level, I could very easily see myself leaving at 9th level.
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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    Quote Originally Posted by DaTedinator View Post
    The class's crunch deals exclusively with Narrow Bridge, but requires knowledge of a variety of maneuvers and grants four different disciplines. I get that the variety is necessary for the fluff, but were I taking the class, I would be taking as many Narrow Bridge maneuvers as possible and pretty much ignoring the others, especially given the limited maneuvers known. Consider broadening a lot of the abilities, or tweaking the fluff to make them preservers but not practicers?
    Hmm, that's a good point. I'm more inclined to generalizing the abilities than changing the fluff. Obvious things to do: Modify Death's Quickness so that you can use it to switch into a Narrow Bridge stance as a free action the same way from another stance, making other stances better. But that's sort of tiny.

    That first level sucks. The class seems fine as long as I'm starting at a high enough level that I can already be in the class, but the first level I get no BAB, no spells, no maneuvers, lowest skills and a d6 hit die... all I really get is +2 Will, and the ability to somewhat penetrate SR. They *really* need something to justify the lack of casting level and no maneuvers. Or, a level of casting and/or maneuvers.


    The Spellcraft bonus doesn't seem to fit the flavor of "Death's Quickness." Consider tacking it on to Martial-Necromancy?
    Good point. And per your earlier remark, I've had it generalize to all stances rather than just Narrow Bridge which should help go to the too much focus on NB issue.

    When using Recover that Which Has Been Lost, it would be horrible to actually fail a week's worth of checks. I can't imagine someone using it unless they were certain they would succeed, in which case the chance of failure is irrelevant. Consider letting them make the check as often as possible, with the penalty for failure being the time period they can't use it.
    Hmm, that seems reasonable, but I wanted some amount of risk to whether or not you actually get it. But you raise a good point. Not sure. For now changing it to your version but may change back if others disagree. What do people think?

    I agree entirely with DracoDei's notes on Take Knowledge from Those Who Have Not Yet Died. Also, the names, could maybe use some work? Some of them are a little long and specific.
    Sorry, I guess I've been reading too many historic grimoires and the like which have names like that. I sort of like the flavory feel of such names, although I can see them being annoying or unweildly. Suggestions for better sounding names are always welcome.

    10th level also seems a little lacking. The caster/initiator level boost is nice, but since it costs me a spellcasting level, I could very easily see myself leaving at 9th level.
    Hmm, so the big issues seems to be needs more at 1 and needs more at 10? And less emphasis on Narrow Bridge? I'm not sure that the 10th level issue is that big because you pick up another maneuver readied and a maneuver known. Maybe let all bonuses you have that apply to Martial Lore apply also to Knowledge(Religion) and the reverse?

    One obvious other thing to do is to make Martial-Channeling more general (again) so it applies to all disciplines. That makes one much more willing to use the other maneuvers picked up presumably.

    I agree that 1st at present doesn't pick up much. Just a situation based bonus to piercing spell resistance and another ability which is more flavor than anything else. I'm not sure what would be a good additional ability. Suggestions welcome.

    Edit: Maybe some ability that gave one a bonus for casting defensively when casting necromancy spells?


    Edit: It occurred to me that the Preserver was lacking in direct combat abilities so I added two more, Swift Mind and Greater Swift Mind.
    Last edited by JoshuaZ; 2010-02-17 at 12:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Hmm, is 16 enough? I'm not sure what to put it at 16 and a 6th level maneuver seems reasonable.
    The formula is 10 + Maneuver Level + ability score modifier, so that aspect is exactly right. And I think 16 is probably high enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    I think to balance it I'll add instead a 10 minute ritual which allows you to designate someone as the person who gets it in event of your death due to old age, but they need to be present for that ritual. What do you think of that?
    That works just fine.
    Best homebrew:
    Grace-Gift - Truly Defensive base class, Falling Anvil Discipline - Loony Slapstick as Martial Art, Mepholk - Snuggly skunk-people. , Wing Dragon Masters of flight Comment HERE, Organ Undead Mega-Thread livers, skins, etc.
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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    Ok. So concerning the lack of stuff for the Seeker at levels 1 and 10, what would people think of the following:

    For first level:

    Lesser Martial Necromantic Synergy At first level, you begin to glimpse some of the deep relations between necromancy and martial combat. Whenever you are in a martial stance you add the level of the stance for any concentration check related to either successfully casting a necromancy spell or casting a necromancy spell defensively.


    For 10th level add the following text to True Enlightenment:

    Whenever you learn a new martial maneuver (by any method, including using Recover that Which Has Been Lost or any similar abilities) you also gain a spell slot of level equal to half the maneuver level /2 or 1, which is higher This spell slot can only be used to cast necromancy spells. When you gain such a spell slot you must decide what class to assign the spell slot, and you cannot assign the spell slot to a class where you do not already have a spell slot of at least that level, although you may reduce the level of the spell slot in order to fit in a specific class. If you ever lose the maneuver (such as through retraining or the like) you also lose the associated spell slot. You may apply this ability immediately, and thus it applies to the maneuver you gain at 10th level of this class.


    The thought process here is that this a) gives you another spell slot probably of at least 3rd level, which takes a tiny bit of the sting off of the lack of spellcasting advancement at 10th and b) gives you the potential to get a lot of low level spell slots, which helps given that a lot of class features focus on sacrificing spells or prepared spell slots.

    Thoughts?

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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    I will try to remember to comment on that in the larger context of the class when I review it. If I forget, someone please remind me.
    Best homebrew:
    Grace-Gift - Truly Defensive base class, Falling Anvil Discipline - Loony Slapstick as Martial Art, Mepholk - Snuggly skunk-people. , Wing Dragon Masters of flight Comment HERE, Organ Undead Mega-Thread livers, skins, etc.
    Filk: 4000 Years(to live)
    Running: Ruceeglaelsktinag: "Justifiable Genocide", Contradiction in terms? IC OOC Active Map: None.
    For everything else see: Full list of Homebrew.
    My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.

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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    With those new abilities, first level, while still a little underwhelming, is probably alright.

    The 10th level addition is a little strange. Does it apply to maneuvers already known? What about maneuvers that get swapped? I'd instead let the Seeker use maneuvers to cast spells, either by readying low-level Necromancy spells as maneuvers, or expending maneuvers to cast a spell of half the level of the maneuver, something like that. At that point, low-level spells are not really worth noting that often, especially for someone that can use maneuvers too, so I don't think it'd be unbalanced.

    --

    On the Preserver of Future Blades:

    Well, there's actually not a whole lot I can say. I'm sorry, it took me so long to get to it because I planned on going through it thoroughly, but there's not actually much for me to critique, it's solid. The abilities are flavorful, not overpowering, not underwhelming, the first level has a nice ability that (mostly) makes up for the lack of advancement psionically or martially (though really, I don't think it would be that big a problem to give them a single maneuver known or something). It's a solid class. Well done!
    Thanks to Dashwood for the avatar!

    Check out my Homebrew.

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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    Quote Originally Posted by DaTedinator View Post
    With those new abilities, first level, while still a little underwhelming, is probably alright.
    Ok. Gone ahead and done that.
    I'm thinking of moving the stances known around. If I changed the stance known from 2nd to first would that make first level unambiguously ok?

    The 10th level addition is a little strange. Does it apply to maneuvers already known? What about maneuvers that get swapped? I'd instead let the Seeker use maneuvers to cast spells, either by readying low-level Necromancy spells as maneuvers, or expending maneuvers to cast a spell of half the level of the maneuver, something like that. At that point, low-level spells are not really worth noting that often, especially for someone that can use maneuvers too, so I don't think it'd be unbalanced.
    As written it would apply to new maneuvers, not old maneuvers. I thought about letting one cast necromancy spells as maneuvers but since dspeyer's Artmage already did that I didn't want to trample on the signature of another PrC. Other suggestions are still welcome.


    On the Preserver of Future Blades:

    Well, there's actually not a whole lot I can say. I'm sorry, it took me so long to get to it because I planned on going through it thoroughly, but there's not actually much for me to critique, it's solid. The abilities are flavorful, not overpowering, not underwhelming, the first level has a nice ability that (mostly) makes up for the lack of advancement psionically or martially (though really, I don't think it would be that big a problem to give them a single maneuver known or something). It's a solid class. Well done!
    Well that's good to know. I was actually worried that this class was too weak. Hmm, for dealing with the maneuvers, I don't want to mess with the maneuver's known too much since they have a nice pattern now. I think I'm going to move the stances known to add a third and have them at 1st, 7th and 9th. Would that be ok?
    Last edited by JoshuaZ; 2010-02-21 at 10:22 PM.
    My homebrew:

    Spoiler
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    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

    The Narrow Bridge
    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



    Worthwhile links:

    Age of Warriors

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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    ...would that make first level unambiguously ok?

    ...

    I think I'm going to move the stances known to add a third and have them at 1st, 7th and 9th. Would that be ok?
    Both of those sound like excellent solutions to me!
    Thanks to Dashwood for the avatar!

    Check out my Homebrew.

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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    Quote Originally Posted by DaTedinator View Post
    Both of those sound like excellent solutions to me!
    Done. I'm still slightly worried that the Preserver may be underpowered (or at least substantially less powerful than its counterpart the Seeker). But I'm not sure what to do about that.
    My homebrew:

    Spoiler
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    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

    The Narrow Bridge
    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



    Worthwhile links:

    Age of Warriors

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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    If you want a really simple fix, I don't think it'd be out of the question to bump the Preserver's HD to a d8. But really, I don't think they're too far apart.
    Thanks to Dashwood for the avatar!

    Check out my Homebrew.

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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Ok. So concerning the lack of stuff for the Seeker at levels 1 and 10, what would people think of the following:

    For first level:

    Lesser Martial Necromantic Synergy At first level, you begin to glimpse some of the deep relations between necromancy and martial combat. Whenever you are in a martial stance you add the level of the stance for any concentration check related to either successfully casting a necromancy spell or casting a necromancy spell defensively.


    For 10th level add the following text to True Enlightenment:

    Whenever you learn a new martial maneuver (by any method, including using Recover that Which Has Been Lost or any similar abilities) you also gain a spell slot of level equal to half the maneuver level /2 or 1, which is higher This spell slot can only be used to cast necromancy spells. When you gain such a spell slot you must decide what class to assign the spell slot, and you cannot assign the spell slot to a class where you do not already have a spell slot of at least that level, although you may reduce the level of the spell slot in order to fit in a specific class. If you ever lose the maneuver (such as through retraining or the like) you also lose the associated spell slot. You may apply this ability immediately, and thus it applies to the maneuver you gain at 10th level of this class.


    The thought process here is that this a) gives you another spell slot probably of at least 3rd level, which takes a tiny bit of the sting off of the lack of spellcasting advancement at 10th and b) gives you the potential to get a lot of low level spell slots, which helps given that a lot of class features focus on sacrificing spells or prepared spell slots.

    Thoughts?
    Sorry for the delay, thought that was an ability for the SECOND class (which I still haven't gotten to reviewing).

    Well, if it works with level up learning (which I think is the assumed way it works), then you are right that that is a LOT of low level slots... but since people think Mystic Theurge is underpowered, that shouldn't be a problem
    Best homebrew:
    Grace-Gift - Truly Defensive base class, Falling Anvil Discipline - Loony Slapstick as Martial Art, Mepholk - Snuggly skunk-people. , Wing Dragon Masters of flight Comment HERE, Organ Undead Mega-Thread livers, skins, etc.
    Filk: 4000 Years(to live)
    Running: Ruceeglaelsktinag: "Justifiable Genocide", Contradiction in terms? IC OOC Active Map: None.
    For everything else see: Full list of Homebrew.
    My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.

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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    I am going to take this in order, which might mean I am completely missing the point with my earlier comments. If so, I appologize.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    The Preservers of Future Blades

    The Preservers of Future Blades are dedicated to making sure that martial knowledge is not lost but is shared and passed down to future generations. They use psionic power to form a Shared Mind which they use to share martial skill and to pass martial power down directly into the minds of their students.

    Skills Points at Each Level: 2 + int
    A little light on the skill points for something that (I would hope) would end up with a smattering of maneuvers from every discipline.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Hit Dice: d6
    This also seems a little light... this class better be (mechanaically) about giving your maneuvers to your allies to use temporarily or something...
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Maneuvers: A Preserver of Future Blades may take maneuvers from Diamond Mind, Sleeping Goddess, Setting Sun, and Tiger Claw disciplines. Levels in Preserver of Future Blades count full for calculating your initiator level.
    You COULD try "All disciplines you knew at least one maneuver from before taking your first level of this class, plus Sleeping Goddess and Diamond Mind." And then adding the associated skills to the skill list.

    I would put in a paranthetical comment about "(but see also Gift of the Shared Mind below)" , so people don't make the same mistake I did when reading this class in order.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    {table="head"]Level|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances Known
    1st|
    0
    |
    0
    |
    1

    2nd|
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0

    3rd|
    0
    |
    0
    |
    0

    4th|
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0

    5th|
    0
    |
    1
    |
    0

    6th|
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0

    7th|
    0
    |
    0
    |
    1

    8th|
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0

    9th|
    0
    |
    0
    |
    1

    10th|
    1
    |
    1
    |
    0
    [/table]
    Again, a little light... but maybe not too bad, especially if they have ways of gaining new maneuvers and stances outside of this... and 3 stances is nothing to sneeze at.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Gift of the Shared Mind(ex) The Shared Mind that all Preservers join together grants you extra martial prowess. At first level, pick any martial discipline. You may add that discipline to your list of disciplines for Preserver purposes and add its associated class as a class skill for Preserver. You also get the chosen discipline as additional discipline for any other class or prestige class in which you take levels. You get this ability again at 5th level and at 10th level, each time choosing an additional discipline.
    Ok, NOW we are getting somewhere... of course, going into disciplines late has some problems for most disciplines, but we will see if you fix those as well...
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Communion with the Mind(su)
    A bit vague at the end, but that is probably OK in my book. This ability also removes any remaining doubts I had about the viability of this class in terms of maneuvers.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post

    Psychic Residue(su) At 2nd level, you can sense residual psychic energy on weapons. You can as a standard action touch a weapon and can tell if it has been used for violence within the last week, if so approximately how recently it was used for it (either within the last hour, or which day if beyond that). You can also tell whether the last violent act used a martial maneuver, and if so, can make a martial lore check to learn what the maneuver was used and what other disciplines were known to the user of the weapon just as if you had witnessed the maneuver being performed. Any effect that would block the Object Reading power will block this.
    Flavorful, and mechanically nearly pointless in most campaigns... thus I love it. Good for murder mysteries of course, but your standard hack-and-slash, or tactical game is going to only use this to get extra data on what their opponents are likely to be doing, if they splatter the first one in a single round (so they don't get to see many of his/her/its tricks).



    Tired now, will continue this later.
    Best homebrew:
    Grace-Gift - Truly Defensive base class, Falling Anvil Discipline - Loony Slapstick as Martial Art, Mepholk - Snuggly skunk-people. , Wing Dragon Masters of flight Comment HERE, Organ Undead Mega-Thread livers, skins, etc.
    Filk: 4000 Years(to live)
    Running: Ruceeglaelsktinag: "Justifiable Genocide", Contradiction in terms? IC OOC Active Map: None.
    For everything else see: Full list of Homebrew.
    My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.

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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    [QUOTE=DracoDei;7942813]I am going to take this in order, which might mean I am completely missing the point with my earlier comments. If so, I appologize.


    A little light on the skill points for something that (I would hope) would end up with a smattering of maneuvers from every discipline. [QUOTE]

    Good point. I've upped that to 4 + int.

    This also seems a little light... this class better be (mechanaically) about giving your maneuvers to your allies to use temporarily or something...
    There's a fair bit of that later. See especially the 6th level ability Give to the Present. I'm not sure if upping this to d8 makes sense or not given that one gets 9/10 psionic progressions which is pretty strong.

    You COULD try "All disciplines you knew at least one maneuver from before taking your first level of this class, plus Sleeping Goddess and Diamond Mind." And then adding the associated skills to the skill list.
    That makes more sense. Done.

    I would put in a paranthetical comment about "(but see also Gift of the Shared Mind below)" , so people don't make the same mistake I did when reading this class in order.
    Good call.
    My homebrew:

    Spoiler
    Show


    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

    The Narrow Bridge
    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



    Worthwhile links:

    Age of Warriors

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    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Voice of the Shared Mind(su): At 2nd level your connection to the Shared Mind provides you with additional knowledge as well as improving your own mental faculties. You gain a bonus on to Knowledge(Psionics) checks, Martial Lore checks, Autohypnosis checks, Concentration checks, and will saves equal to half your class level.
    Ok... this was looking like a minor but useful ability... until you mentioned Will saves... wow... that is... strong. Also, the concentration thing is nothing to sneeze at for someone who went the Diamond Mind route in leu of, or as well as the Sleeping Goddess route.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Conduit of the Shared Mind (ps) At 2nd level, you gain the ability to use the Shared Mind to contact other Preservers. You may use the Correspond power as a psi-like ability. You may only use this ability to contact another Preserver. You may use this ability class level/2 + your intelligence modifier times daily.
    Utility depends entirely on the specific campaign, but I like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Swift Mind(Su) At 2nd level, you have learned to use your psionic powers to speed up your reactions. You may when you are in a martial stance expend your psionic focus to switch to any other martial stance as a free action. You may do so even when it is not your turn.
    Hmmm... my Sublime Form Master had each part of this (not your turn, and free action) as a 1/day ability, so you may be overpowered here, or I may be underpowered... although free vs swift isn't likely to come up more than once a day. Stuff like reacting to a bullrush starting by shifting to a Stone-dragon or Setting Sun stance (or a pack of hell-hounds getting summoned by going to the first level Desert Wind stance) could be pretty boss multiple times per day though.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Telepathic Adept(su) At 3rd level, you gain relevant information about the martial skill of beings whose mind you come into contact with. Whenever you use a telepathy power that targets a single being that allows a save on a failed save you learn exactly what maneuvers (if any) the being has readied and what disciplines the individuals knows maneuvers from. At 6th level, you also learn what maneuvers that the individual knows.
    A nice little bonus, especially if you have Adaptive Style so you can redo your selection specifically to counter his.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Power of the Shared Mind At 4th level and again at 8th level you gain additional psionic knowledge from the Shared Mind. You gain one extra power known of your choice from the Psion/Wilder list that is of level strictly lower than your highest power level known.
    Nice for getting back the versitility that you lost by dual classing I guess... especially since with augmentation, lower level psionic powers tend to turn into higher level ones.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Psychic Reinforcement (su): At 4th level, you gain the ability to use residual psionic energy to reinforce the effect of your stances. Whenever you have psionic focus, you may add 2 to your effective initiator for purposes of what your stances do. This does not allow you to learn stances of a higher level than you would from your normal initiator level.
    Should be "add 2 to your effective initiator level".
    Eh... most stances actually don't vary by initiator level directly that I know of... they just provide bonuses that remain useful or (in the case of the 1st level Desert Wind stance, scale based on skill ranks).
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Bonus Feat:At 5th level and 10th get a bonus feat of Instant Clarity, Martial Study, Martial Stance, Blade Meditation, Scribe Martial Script or Craft Universal Item.
    Some of these are sub-par (if only because they provide a resource you probably aren't hurting for anyway), but that is going to vary from character to character, so this is fine conceptually. Although now I am swinging over to wondering if this class is getting overpowered... I dunno...
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Mental Fragment (ps) At 5th, you gain the ability to implant small fragments of your mind into a willing target that you are touching. When you use this ability, select an intelligence based skill that you have at least 8 ranks in. You implant some of your knowledge into your target. They can now permanently use that skill as if they had ranks in it, and gain a +1 competence bonus on checks for that skill. Using this ability requires expending 100 xp.
    I would say that EACH of you should have to expend the XPs, just to prevent cheese of converting WBL into expanded spell lists (especially if someone somehow manages to get a noob GM to allow UMD with this or something).
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Give to the Present (su) At 6th level you gain the ability to imprint maneuvers into the mind of willing creatures. You may as a standard action expend a readied maneuver you know and imprint that maneuver into the mind of willing creature you are touching. The creature must meet the prerequisites to use this maneuver. The maneuver must be one that you understand well and so the maneuver cannot be one gained from your connection to the Shared Mind. The target gains the ability to use the maneuver for 1 hour. You may use this ability to give a target multiple maneuvers (and may use prior uses of Give to the Present to count for the prerequisites of subsequent uses). You may use this ability up to your class level + intelligence modifier times daily (min 1).
    Can they refresh them? If so, by what means? I would recommend the non-initiator, Martial Study method, or maybe Sword-Sage if you are feeling generous. Also, are you sure you meant to allow the granting of Shadow Hand manuvers to the Wizard's owl or cat familiar? What about Stone Dragon to the Druid's Bear?
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Power Conduit (su): At 6th level, You may use your Conduit ability to transfer psionic power. When you use the Conduit in this fashion, a Preserver currently in a Conduit may transfer power points to a willing recipient. You may transfer power point of at most your manifester level. Doing so is a standard action. If the recipient is at their maximum number of power points this is simply lost. Using this ability terminates the conduit.
    The amount of worldbuilding the GM needs to do to determine when you can actually phone someone up for a recharge is rather large... might be good in some campaigns, and a nightmare in others.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Greater Swift Mind (su): You may once a day when using a martial strike that takes a standard action, expend psionic focus and pay power points equal to that you would pay for a power of the same level (so 1 point for a first level strike, 3 for a second level and so on). If you do so, you initiate make the strike as a swift action. You may not pay more power points than your maximum manifester level. Also, if the strike has some augment feature (such as that of some Sleeping Goddess maneuvers), any augment paid counts towards the total manifester level limit.
    Hmmm... still means getting off two strikes per round once a day... very good for dropping two 9th level maneuvers on the BBEG.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Train the Future (ex) At 7th level, you become particularly skilled at training young adepts. Someone training to gain a new discipline with you only needs to pay 500 xp rather than the usual 1000 xp (this is assuming Demented One's usual rules for training). You also gain a special power, Telepathic Training. If you have multiple manifesting classes you must decide to which class to add the power.

    Telepathic Training
    Telepathy
    Level: Preserver 6
    Display: Visual, Auditory
    Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Touch
    Target: One willing creature
    Duration: 1 hour per a discipline, see text.
    Saving Throw: None
    Power Resistance: No
    Power Points: 11

    When you use this power you select a discipline you know. You and the target touched fall into a coma-like state as you are connected by a deep psionic bond. For the duration no effect short of epic magic will terminate this connection and awaken you until the duration has expired unless one of you dies. While objectively only a few hourss pass, for you and the student many weeks pass in subjective time as you and your student are immersed in a simulated world in which you can train the student in martial skills. The student can learn the basics of any disciplines that they wish to learn and which you wish to teach them. For each discipline that they wish to learn about, a week goes by in subjective time and a round goes by in outside reality. The student must pay the usual xp cost for learning a new discipline (with any relevant modifiers such as Train the Future above) and for all other purposes this functions exactly like the normal mechanic for learning new disciplines. The power terminates when either you are unwilling or unable to teach any more disciplines to the student or the student does not wish to learn any more.

    This power also leaves some residual mental impressions on the individual, giving them a +1 competence bonus to martial lore checks and allowing them to make martial lore checks as if they were trained in martial lore even if they are not. This benefit lasts for 1 month after the termination of the power.

    Augment: If you pay 4 additional power points, the effective speed of this power is greatly sped up, so that each week of subjective time only takes 1 round rather than 1 hour.
    Go ahead and add this to every class they have... it won't matter... this is a good "power up before the final battle" thing for a NPC to use, or, in extreme cases, a PC, such as the scenario of "Well, we escaped those mind-flayers ((Thus gaining a bunch of XPs)), but we can't run forever, they know where our families are... don't sweat it Zord, your training in the jungles of your homeland simply didn't prepare you for methods of interogation that by-pass the body and go straight to the memories in your mind... so, who wants to learn the ways of the Sword-Sage now, which includes among them a method where by ones focus may throw off a mental attack?"
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Give to the Future(su): At 8th level, when you use Give to the Present you may make the maneuver given a permanent extra maneuver. If you choose to do so, the process takes 1 minute and you and your target must both pay 500 xp per maneuver level. After this process, if the maneuver is from a discipline that they had no maneuvers in then target is considered to have gained a new discipline as if they undergone the usual training procedure.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Greater Conduit(su): At 8th level, Whenever you are using a conduit that you started you can use telepathy powers on the target of your conduit with as long as being is willing. You are treated as touching the target and automatically overcoming power resistance. Powers used this way cost an extra 4 power points to manifest. Use of this ability terminates t]hat conduit.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Union with the Shared Mind(su): At 9th level you develop a closer connection to the Shared Mind. You do not fail will saves on a natural 1, as the Shared Mind protects you against mental assaults. Additionally, you may once a day query the Shared Mind about any specific maneuver in the Mind, learning how many people borrowed a specific maneuver from the Shared Mind in the last 24 hours and their approximate locations (if they are on the same plane). You gain from this enough knowledge to be able to use scrying on similar effects as if you had met them.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Mental Pinnacle(ex): You have reached the height of mental and martial skill. Your initiator level and manifester level become one and the same. No class level may add more than +1 to this level, but any level that adds to manifester or initiator level may add to this level. Any bonus to manifester or initiator level may be added to this level, but any bonus that affects both may only be added once. You may use this level for any effect that relies on manfiester level or initiator level. Additionally, whenever you would be able to learn a psionic power you may instead choose to learn a martial strike, counter or boost of level no higher than the highest level power you can learn.

    Playing a Preserver of Future Blades

    Combat: Your combat techniques will vary much depending on what maneuvers you have prepared. However, your selection of maneuvers is far more varied than most martial adepts. You will need to think very carefully about what foes you are expecting to fight to decide exactly what maneuvers to request from the Shared Mind.
    Advancement: Any abilities that increase your martial skill or manifesting prowess will be useful. Practiced Manifester is useful to make up for the lost manifesting levels. (There's some question of whether Practiced Manifester increases your total bonus power points also. If it does, this is a must have feat).
    Resources: Unlike their colleagues the Seekers, the Preservers are far more likely to be collegial. Although not all Preservers see eye-to-eye, you are likely to be on good terms with a few other Preservers who might be willing to help out in a pinch. Also, you have likely helped train many warriors of all sorts who might be nearby.
    Preservers of Future Swords in the world
    "The Preservers? Yeah I've heard of them. They have some very strange ideas. But definitely the people to go to if you want to learn how to fight fancy? Me I don't need all that. I just swing my sword and make it hurt a lot." - Benor Snarlbeard, A dwarven warblade talking about the Presevers

    Preservers are not widespread. The combination of both martial skill and psionic power is hard for many to achieve. Since psionics are so rare, most Preservers are simply identified as warriors with strange mystical powers. Few people will actually understand the nature of their abilities in any detail.

    Daily Life: Preservers spend much of their time training or exchanging martial techniques. They are likely to spend time with other martial adepts or other Preservers. Some travel to learn more or to spread their skills.

    Notables:
    Talona Blackblade is one of the strongest Preservers alive today. Unlike many Preservers who started out as psychic warriors or psions, Blackblade's psionic power stems from being a wilder. This has lead to her being uncomfortable with her lack of subtlety. Since she is also a half-elf, her place in society has always been precarious. Talona currently works with the Society of the Sanctified Mind (see Lords of Madness) to combat illithid infiltration. She has not joined the society, preferring to cooperate but not willing to join a larger organization that might put restrictions on her.

    Garlnat is a half-orc Preserver who is surprisingly intelligent for his species. He recently founded a new school to teach young swordsages, focusing on those who show possible signs of psionic ability. He currently is a strong proponent that the Preservers should form a more formal organization, but so far, he has few who have paid attention to that call.

    Temelain is a human Preserver who has studied the ways of the Preservers not for their ethical goal of passing on knowledge but simply because it seemed like a reasonable path to power for a young martial adept with psionic skill. He now works as a mercenary. He also is willing to use his abilities to train others in the ways of martial combat, but only if he is paid well. He hopes to one day settle down and become a permanent combat instructor for some private noble family. However, his willingness to work for whomever pays the most has earned him no small share of enemies and that makes his long-term goal less likely.

    Organizations: The Preservers have no formal organization for all of them but many of them use the Shared Mind to keep in touch with each other. Some of them arrange for regular meetings where they come together in groups to swap tidbits of martial lore. They are likely to join in with any organization that has psions or psychic warriors.

    NPC Reaction
    Preservers come across to most NPCs as skilled warriors. If they find out that one has psionic power as well, most are likely to simply be confused, having little to no understanding of such abilities. They may simply shrug and label you some sort of strange mage. In areas where psionics is feared or persecuted (such as some magocracies) you may need to keep your identity as a Preserver secret.

    People who are familiar with the Preservers will generally have a favorable attitude, knowing them most likely for their willingness to pass on useful knowledge.

    Preservers of Future Blades in the Game
    Like the Seekers, one of the primary advantages that Preservers have is flexibility. A Preserver can have almost any set of maneuvers if they think they will be useful to them that day. This can create an obvious headache for DMs in a manner similar to that created by wizards. However, martial maneuvers in general have far less power than spells and have much less out of combat utility.

    Adaptation: One could removal psionic aspect of Preservers and have them use standard magic or some other system. One could also make them more directly analogous to the Seekers, possibly transmitting martial skill by using necromancy to split off parts of their souls and embed them in willing recipients. One could also give them divine casting instead of manifesting and make them servants of some god of scholarship or battle.

    New Psionic Items

    Preserver's Orb
    A Preserver's Orb is a deep blue, crystalline dodecahedron. These orbs can be used to store knowledge of a martial maneuver. To do so, someone with the Give to the Future class feature must hold the orb and implant a single martial maneuver they know into the orb. Doing so takes a standard action and requires that they pay 1000 xp per a level of the maneuver to be implanted. An Orb once charged glows softly enough that one can notice the glow in dim lighting. In normal or bright light this glow takes a DC 20 spot check to notice. If an individual meeting the prerequisites of a maneuver implanted in an orb touches the orb, the orb telepathically whispers to them the name of the maneuver and gives them the option of gaining the maneuver. If they choose to do so, the Orb becomes expended and their mind is immediately modified to include the new maneuver as an extra maneuver known in every initiating class that they have. Maneuvers learned this way cannot be unlearned or modified by any method (such as a class feature to swap out maneuvers, or by the Psychic Reformulation power). An Orb may not store more than one maneuver at a time.

    Strong telepathy; ML 17th; Craft Universal Item, psychic chirgury, able to use a martial maneuver; Cost 6,000 gp + 2,500 XP; Price 18,500 gp.


    Martial Cognizance Crystal
    A martial cognizance crystal looks almost identical to a normal cognizance crystal. They will sometimes have a symbol of a sword embedded in them but otherwise look superficially identical to normal crystal. A martial adept can also use the crystal as a free action to refresh expended martial maneuvers. To do so, they must drain from the crystal 2 power points for every expended martial maneuver they wish to refresh. They otherwise function identically to a normal cognizance crystal. Martial cognizance crystals cost 10% more than normal cognizance crystals to make, but finding buyers willing to pay more for them may prove difficult since there are few who would benefit from the additional ability.

    Faint to strong psychokinesis; ML equal to maximum power point storage; Craft Cognizance Crystal, able to use a martial maneuver; Weight 1 lb.
    Will edit in more later...
    Best homebrew:
    Grace-Gift - Truly Defensive base class, Falling Anvil Discipline - Loony Slapstick as Martial Art, Mepholk - Snuggly skunk-people. , Wing Dragon Masters of flight Comment HERE, Organ Undead Mega-Thread livers, skins, etc.
    Filk: 4000 Years(to live)
    Running: Ruceeglaelsktinag: "Justifiable Genocide", Contradiction in terms? IC OOC Active Map: None.
    For everything else see: Full list of Homebrew.
    My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Boston, MA

    Default Re: Death and the Past or the Mind and the Future (2 ToB PrCs)

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Ok... this was looking like a minor but useful ability... until you mentioned Will saves... wow... that is... strong. Also, the concentration thing is nothing to sneeze at for someone who went the Diamond Mind route in leu of, or as well as the Sleeping Goddess route.
    Yeah, this may be too powerful. Should it maybe only apply when you have psionic focus? Would that balance it enough?

    Should be "add 2 to your effective initiator level".
    Eh... most stances actually don't vary by initiator level directly that I know of... they just provide bonuses that remain useful or (in the case of the 1st level Desert Wind stance, scale based on skill ranks).,
    Good point. This doesn't really do much of anything. Some of the homebrew disciplines do have ones that depend on initiator level explicitly, but only a handful. Taking that out.

    Utility depends entirely on the specific campaign, but I like it.

    Hmmm... my Sublime Form Master had each part of this (not your turn, and free action) as a 1/day ability, so you may be overpowered here, or I may be underpowered... although free vs swift isn't likely to come up more than once a day. Stuff like reacting to a bullrush starting by shifting to a Stone-dragon or Setting Sun stance (or a pack of hell-hounds getting summoned by going to the first level Desert Wind stance) could be pretty boss multiple times per day though.
    I suspect that mine is probably overpowered then. Maybe have one have to pay power points equal to the new stance level?





    Some of these are sub-par (if only because they provide a resource you probably aren't hurting for anyway), but that is going to vary from character to character, so this is fine conceptually. Although now I am swinging over to wondering if this class is getting overpowered... I dunno...
    Hmm, Should I take this out then? It isn't like you aren't getting anything at 5th level. They'd be ok without the bonus feat.

    I would say that EACH of you should have to expend the XPs, just to prevent cheese of converting WBL into expanded spell lists (especially if someone somehow manages to get a noob GM to allow UMD with this or something).

    Can they refresh them? If so, by what means? I would recommend the non-initiator, Martial Study method, or maybe Sword-Sage if you are feeling generous. Also, are you sure you meant to allow the granting of Shadow Hand manuvers to the Wizard's owl or cat familiar? What about Stone Dragon to the Druid's Bear?
    Ok. I've clarified refreshing. The second point about giving these maneuvers to certain creatures suggests serious worries. Not sure what to do about that. Maybe limit the levels of maneuvers? Not sure what to do about that. Suggestions welcome.

    The amount of worldbuilding the GM needs to do to determine when you can actually phone someone up for a recharge is rather large... might be good in some campaigns, and a nightmare in others.
    Hmm, yeah that could be a problem. Should I get rid of this?

    Hmmm... still means getting off two strikes per round once a day... very good for dropping two 9th level maneuvers on the BBEG.
    Hmm. Yeah, that's too good. I've added "You cannot apply this ability to a maneuver of level more than half your class." which should help keep it in the realm of the sane.

    I would say that EACH of you should have to expend the XPs, just to prevent cheese of converting WBL into expanded spell lists (especially if someone somehow manages to get a noob GM to allow UMD with this or something).
    Good point. Modified accordingly.

    Go ahead and add this to every class they have... it won't matter...
    Done.
    My homebrew:

    Spoiler
    Show


    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

    The Narrow Bridge
    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



    Worthwhile links:

    Age of Warriors

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