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    Default Re: [3.5] Beast Warrior v1.1 [PEACH]

    I'd like to say that i don't know enough about D&D to say whether it'd good or balanced, but it definitely looks FUN.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Beast Warrior v1.1 [PEACH]

    Well, I definitely like the concept. The implementation, though... I dunno. Not entirely my cup of tea. Doesn't mean it's bad, or even not balanced, I'm just not sure how I personally feel about unstructured classes, so keep that in mind as I review.

    The set class features are all fine. I think I'd prefer a listed amount of beast points as they currently are (so they're more power points, and you get bonus points based on Constitution), but more on that later.

    Notes on beast abilities as a whole: I like the combination of skill checks and points spent. I don't know that I would create two entirely new skills (I feel like you could use Concentration and Control Shape or something), but the basic idea is great.

    If you do want to make your own skills, I would definitely give them their own uses as well. Use Adaptive to resist poisons like Autohypnosis, for example, or Combative to resist feints instead of sense motive? I dunno. Maybe use it to feint instead of bluff? Or use it on special attacks instead of attack rolls?

    Pretty much everything is listed under a certain level heading, and then states at the end what level you can take it at. Not bad, just redundant.

    1st Level: Animal companion is certainly balanced, I think, but it's so much better than any other 1st level ability.

    Discern North, Track, and Wild Empathy all seem like sub-par options. I'd consider beefing them up a little. Roll Track in with Lesser Scent, Wild Empathy with Calm Animals, for example.

    I like all the skill bonus abilities.

    2nd Level: Seems fine.

    3rd Level: I can't imagine someone choosing Endurance, especially since these guys aren't proficient with medium armor.

    4th Level: Improved Grab is the name of the ability that, say, bears get that allows them to automatically grapple if they make a successful melee attack, not a feat. I think you meant Improved Grapple? If you did, Improved Grab should be an ability they can get. Remember, Barbarians can get Improved Grab or Pounce at 1st level. Speaking of which, given that fact, I think you can just give them pounce, don't make them have to check for it.

    Shocking is fun.

    5th Level: I really like Close Wounds. Like, really. Awesome mechanic that I could totally see myself abducting for classes in the future.

    6th Level: Seems fine.

    7th Level: Circle the Herd looks good! I like how you get one ability you don't need beast points for, and one you do. Consider giving some abilities that require beast points a small gimmick that doesn't need them, actually.

    Spines is a fun ability, as is Wolfpack Tactics, though really, Wolfpack and Circle the Herd seem a bit too similar. Although I suppose the adjacent/flanking distinction is enough of one that they can stay as is.

    10th Level: Good ability, something that's needed for natural attacks.

    11th Level: Seems fine, though I don't know why blindsense needs to be spell-like, or even supernatural.

    15th Level: What's the interaction with Improved Extra Natural Attack and Multiattack? I would consider outright eliminating this ability (or maybe changing it so instead of reducing attack penalty, it lets you add your full Strength bonus for secondary attacks?), and just noting in Extra Natural Attack that Multiattack reduces its penalty as well.

    18th Level: Again, not sure why it needs to be spell-like. Otherwise fine.

    20th Level: These all seem fine, but not especially capstoney. I feel like it wouldn't be a bad idea to bump these down to 19th, and come up with a couple solid capstones, and only give one beast ability at 20th.


    Alright, there's the feedback on things the way they are now, and it seems solid. Probably a bit underpowered at lower levels, but it's a little hard to tell, and hey, Animal Companion. And you can just take that feedback and run with it.

    But if you're willing to go a little crazy? I'd suggest completely redoing the way beast points work. You have an opportunity to make a completely new "magic" system here, and it doesn't have to be crazy original, but it can be more than just spell points.

    Like, just a couple of ideas, brainstorm-style:

    Have a small pool of points (no more than 10 at 20th level) that recover at the end of encounters. Adaptive and Combative checks that beat the DC by enough reduce and eliminate the need to expend the points, so if you roll high enough, you don't need to spend the points. Have some passive abilities that provide greater benefits the more points are in your pool.

    Have the current amount of points, but let them be spent for things other than beast abilities (or make new abilities that let them be spent in new ways). I'm thinking reducing damage from attacks, improving saves and AC, granting extra movement, etc.. Give them a lot of points, but give them ways to pour through them in a single encounter, and have them all recover at the end of the encounter. That'll give these guys serious staying power, and a nice combat niche.

    Again, give them an extremely limited amount of points, but have the pool refill every round. Let them spend the points on all sorts of things as above, but with such a small pool per round (Constitution mod, maybe?) that you have to manage what you're trying to accomplish each round (alright, I can spend most of my points to move over here, but then I risk getting hit by attacks of opportunity without buffing my AC... or, do I spend these points to reduce the damage from this attack, and not do as much damage in retaliation, or do I take the full blow and hope I can drop the guy next turn?).

    Or even just something as simple as upping their HD, and maybe giving them bonus HP, and having them spend HP instead of beast points.

    Also, as long as I'm talking crazy revisions: I'm not a huge fan of the entirely modular set-up, but I am a fan of talent trees. Just a personal preference, but it's something to consider.


    So yeah! I like the class idea, and while it's not the sort of structure I'm into, it's most definitely playable as-is, and I'd let one of my players take it. But it has the potential to be totally wicked awesome instead of just really cool.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Beast Warrior v1.1 [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by DaTedinator View Post
    Well, I definitely like the concept. The implementation, though... I dunno. Not entirely my cup of tea. Doesn't mean it's bad, or even not balanced, I'm just not sure how I personally feel about unstructured classes, so keep that in mind as I review. I wanted a more freeform feel for the class. The level of variety in the animal world is incredible, and I wanted this class to reflect that, allowing each character to choose their own path.

    The set class features are all fine. I think I'd prefer a listed amount of beast points as they currently are (so they're more power points, and you get bonus points based on Constitution), but more on that later.

    Notes on beast abilities as a whole: I like the combination of skill checks and points spent. I don't know that I would create two entirely new skills (I feel like you could use Concentration and Control Shape or something), but the basic idea is great.

    If you do want to make your own skills, I would definitely give them their own uses as well. Use Adaptive to resist poisons like Autohypnosis, for example, or Combative to resist feints instead of sense motive? I dunno. Maybe use it to feint instead of bluff? Or use it on special attacks instead of attack rolls? I do want a unique skill for using Beast Abilities. Partly to prevent someone from gaining ranks in the skill before joining the class (as could happen with existing skills) and partially because I didn't think any existing skill really fit the flavor of my concept. That said, I am considering both condensing Adaptive and Combative into one skill (Tap Beast, probably), and giving that skill another use. I'm just not sure what the use would be...possibly rolling Handle Animal into it? I'm just not sure.

    Pretty much everything is listed under a certain level heading, and then states at the end what level you can take it at. Not bad, just redundant. That was a copy/paste holdover accident from when I was first designing the class. I didn't have anything organized by level at the time. I was just designing abilities in alphabetical order, and assigned the tag line at the end of each to help me organize them later. I just forgot to take it out. Fixed now.

    1st Level: Animal companion is certainly balanced, I think, but it's so much better than any other 1st level ability. It likely is, at least in-combat. Out-of-combat? I'm not so sure.

    Discern North, Track, and Wild Empathy all seem like sub-par options. I'd consider beefing them up a little. Roll Track in with Lesser Scent, Wild Empathy with Calm Animals, for example.
    I was thinking about that. I've redone Discern North. It is now Innate Navigation (Ex) : Like many migratory animals, you have an innate sense of direction and navigation. You always know which direction is North, even when unable to see/hear/sense anything else, and you gain a +4 to all Survival checks made to avoid getting lost. In addition, as a Full Round action, you may spend 1 Beast Point (DC 15 Adaptive check), to gain the ability to retrace your path of travel for the last 12 hours. This applies only to travel you were conscious during. For every 5 points you beat the DC, you can retrace an additional 12 hours of time. Each additonal Beast Point adds a +10 to the check.

    I did also roll Calm Animals in with Wild Empathy. I'm still not sure what to do about Track. I'd like to keep the Scent/senses tree separate from it, but I don't know what else I'd do with it.


    I like all the skill bonus abilities. Thanks :)

    2nd Level: Seems fine.

    3rd Level: I can't imagine someone choosing Endurance, especially since these guys aren't proficient with medium armor. Endurance grants more than just the ability to sleep in armor: You gain a +4 bonus on the following checks and saves: Swim checks made to resist nonlethal damage, Constitution checks made to continue running, Constitution checks made to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march, Constitution checks made to hold your breath, Constitution checks made to avoid nonlethal damage from starvation or thirst, Fortitude saves made to avoid nonlethal damage from hot or cold environments, and Fortitude saves made to resist damage from suffocation. Also, you may sleep in light or medium armor without becoming fatigued.

    I find the text before the armor line to be good enough motivation for a wilderness-based character to take.


    4th Level: Improved Grab is the name of the ability that, say, bears get that allows them to automatically grapple if they make a successful melee attack, not a feat. I think you meant Improved Grapple? If you did, Improved Grab should be an ability they can get. I did mean Improved Grab as the animal/monster ability. I just goofed about the feat part. I cleaned that up, and added Improved Grapple for the hell of it. Although, I could probably delete it, considering Improved Grab does basically the same and more... Remember, Barbarians can get Improved Grab or Pounce at 1st level. I've not been able to find anything supporting Barbs getting Pounce at 1st. Could you tell me what book that comes from? Speaking of which, given that fact, I think you can just give them pounce, don't make them have to check for it. Depending upon support, I might...

    Shocking is fun.

    5th Level: I really like Close Wounds. Like, really. Awesome mechanic that I could totally see myself abducting for classes in the future. Thanks. I rather like it myself I didn't want to make the class too powerful (which I thought Fast Healing might do), but I wanted to give them some sort of additional healing ability. If I remember the math I did correctly, once a BW gains this, they can go from 0 HP to full in about 4 hours, even when travelling through rough terrain at full speed.

    6th Level: Seems fine.

    7th Level: Circle the Herd looks good! I like how you get one ability you don't need beast points for, and one you do. Consider giving some abilities that require beast points a small gimmick that doesn't need them, actually. I'm looking over things and cosidering doing just that.

    Spines is a fun ability, as is Wolfpack Tactics, though really, Wolfpack and Circle the Herd seem a bit too similar. Although I suppose the adjacent/flanking distinction is enough of one that they can stay as is.

    10th Level: Good ability, something that's needed for natural attacks.

    11th Level: Seems fine, though I don't know why blindsense needs to be spell-like, or even supernatural. Several people have mentioned that. I'm reconsidering my stance...

    15th Level: What's the interaction with Improved Extra Natural Attack and Multiattack? I would consider outright eliminating this ability (or maybe changing it so instead of reducing attack penalty, it lets you add your full Strength bonus for secondary attacks?), and just noting in Extra Natural Attack that Multiattack reduces its penalty as well. I may end up doing that. IENA was originally just designed to reduce the penalty from the attacks gained by Extra Natural Attack, not all of their natural attacks. I may let them gain Multiattack as both a feat and a Beast Ability (more flexibility).

    18th Level: Again, not sure why it needs to be spell-like. Otherwise fine.

    20th Level: These all seem fine, but not especially capstoney. I feel like it wouldn't be a bad idea to bump these down to 19th, and come up with a couple solid capstones, and only give one beast ability at 20th. I've been having trouble coming up with a good capstone for any of the abilities/paths. Any suggestions?

    Alright, there's the feedback on things the way they are now, and it seems solid. Probably a bit underpowered at lower levels, but it's a little hard to tell, and hey, Animal Companion. And you can just take that feedback and run with it.

    But if you're willing to go a little crazy? I'd suggest completely redoing the way beast points work. You have an opportunity to make a completely new "magic" system here, and it doesn't have to be crazy original, but it can be more than just spell points.

    Like, just a couple of ideas, brainstorm-style:

    Have a small pool of points (no more than 10 at 20th level --did you sneak into my house and look at my original design notes?) that recover at the end of encounters. I had originally thought of doing something similar (smaller pool, able to be refreshed several times per day). I still have plans for something like that for Divine magic. I'm not a big fan of a per-encounter style mechanic, though. I wanted the feel of being able to tap into a certain amount of the power held by their Inner Beast, and a per-encounter style didn't seem to fit that. Adaptive and Combative checks that beat the DC by enough reduce and eliminate the need to expend the points, so if you roll high enough, you don't need to spend the points. I'm not sure about that...but I'm willing to listen. Have some passive abilities that provide greater benefits the more points are in your pool. This line could hold some promise... what did you have in mind?

    Have the current amount of points, but let them be spent for things other than beast abilities (or make new abilities that let them be spent in new ways). I'm thinking reducing damage from attacks, improving saves and AC, granting extra movement, etc.. Give them a lot of points, but give them ways to pour through them in a single encounter, and have them all recover at the end of the encounter. That'll give these guys serious staying power, and a nice combat niche.

    Again, give them an extremely limited amount of points, but have the pool refill every round. Let them spend the points on all sorts of things as above, but with such a small pool per round (Constitution mod, maybe?) that you have to manage what you're trying to accomplish each round (alright, I can spend most of my points to move over here, but then I risk getting hit by attacks of opportunity without buffing my AC... or, do I spend these points to reduce the damage from this attack, and not do as much damage in retaliation, or do I take the full blow and hope I can drop the guy next turn?).

    Or even just something as simple as upping their HD, and maybe giving them bonus HP, and having them spend HP instead of beast points.

    Also, as long as I'm talking crazy revisions: I'm not a huge fan of the entirely modular set-up, but I am a fan of talent trees. Some of the abilities are relatively tree-ed. I may group some of them together under one ability (like all the Beast Shapes), with the upgraded versions available for their higher cost and DC. Just a personal preference, but it's something to consider.


    So yeah! I like the class idea, and while it's not the sort of structure I'm into, it's most definitely playable as-is, and I'd let one of my players take it. But it has the potential to be totally wicked awesome instead of just really cool.
    Thanks a lot for the input. I liked alot of the concepts, and look forward to hearing more!

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    Default Re: [3.5] Beast Warrior v1.1 [PEACH]

    Updates posted:

    Changed Adaptive and Combative to one skill -- Tap Beast

    Added new Beast Abilities and updated some others.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Beast Warrior v1.1 [PEACH]

    I'll have to read through this some more, but the one thing I can comment on now is that giving them access to bows would definitely help. Also, considering this is DND, for ranged options, I would also look into emulating some of the abilities of magical beasts.

    So, yeah, I'd be happy to review this a second time in the near future. Best of luck, too!


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    Default Re: [3.5] Beast Warrior v1.1 [PEACH]

    Added bows to their weapon proficiencies. Also added a few more Beast Abilities and edited/improved others. I still need to add a few more (like some real capstone-like abilities, if anybody has any suggestions).

    Thrice Dead Cat -- anytime you have a chance to do that second review (or third and fourth reviews, too) would be great. Your last one helped a good deal. As for ranged abilities and magical beasts, I'm trying to keep this more "mundane" beast-focused. I may explore options of "mythical" abilities that normal animals were/are said to have. Like porcupines "shooting" quills, and other such things. If you or anybody else has suggestions of such things, it would help greatly.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Beast Warrior v1.1 [PEACH]

    Might want to point out on that 20th level beast ability, you should specify whether the critical rate increase stacks with things like Keen Edge.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Beast Warrior v1.1 [PEACH]

    A good point Done, and thanks for pointing it out.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Beast Warrior v1.1 [PEACH]

    Glad to help. ^_^
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
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    Default Re: [3.5] Beast Warrior v1.1 [PEACH]

    I've added a few new Beast Abilities for review:

    2nd level
    Bestial Diet (Ex) : You may consume/survive on plants and other foods that animals may normally safely consume that your species normally cannot (you don't necessarily like the flavor, however). You gain a +15 on Survival checks to feed yourself.

    and

    Strike like a Snake (Ex) : You gain a +4 to your initiative rolls. In addition, you do not lose your Dexterity modifier while flat-footed.

    4th level

    Improved Knockdown(Ex) : You gain Improved Trip and Knockdown as per the feats, even if you do not meet the prerequisites.

    10th level

    Awesome Blow (Ex) : You gain the Awesome Blow feat, even if you do not meet the prerequisites. You count as one size category larger for the purpose of determining legal targets for this ability. In addittion, you may spend 2 Beast Points (DC 21 Unleash Beast check) to knock your victim an additional 10', +10' per 10 points you exceed the DC.

    20th level

    Hybrid Form (Su) : When activating your Beast Form ability, you may instead choose to transform into a hybrid (bipedal) form. All changes granted by Beast Form are kept, except that you remain able to wield items and speak normally, and all of your equipment functions normally.

    (I think this is still way too weak for a capstone, but I'm not sure what level to move it to...)

    There are also some alterations to other Beast Abilities (I can't remember all of them right now).

    I'm still in need for good Capstone suggestions, please.

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    Thumbs up Re: [3.5] Beast Warrior v1.1 [PEACH]

    thank you for the link to this class Melayl

    i would like to test this class. but is your first post up dated so i can use your class. also have you up dated for pathfinder (if not dont sweet it)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melayl View Post
    Magic Strike (Su) : Starting at 4th level, all your natural weapons count as magic for the purposes of damage reduction. They may also be treated as both natural and manufactured weapons for purposes of enchantment.
    claw/magic right? if so can you add more like +1 at 8 lvl ect or add Beast Abilities to get higher the claw/magic. it may be to overpowered thro only asking.

    some if the Abilities are "Immediate action or swift action" i get the idea but you can only do a set number of "Immediate action or swift action" per turn can you fix that?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Beast Warrior v1.1 [PEACH]

    If you do test it out, please let me know how it goes.

    The first two posts are updated with the most recent version. I'm still drawing blanks for good capstone abilities, but it should be very playable well into higher levels. It is not Pathfinder-ready, but I think the Pathfinder folks have guides to adapting 3.5 classes to Pathfinder.

    claw/magic right? if so can you add more like +1 at 8 lvl ect or add Beast Abilities to get higher the claw/magic. it may be to overpowered thro only asking.
    You're asking if the natural weapons can be enchanted (+1 abilities, flaming, vorpal, etc), then the answer is yes. They would use the same process as enchanting a normal weapon.

    If you're asking if the natural weapons have their own progression for enchantment (gaining +X as they level), the answer is no. They can gain such bonuses from being enchanted (like the paragraph above states), but they don't automatically get them.

    some if the Abilities are "Immediate action or swift action" i get the idea but you can only do a set number of "Immediate action or swift action" per turn can you fix that?
    The number of immediate and swift actions a character can take per turn are set by the 3.5 rules (and right off the top of my head I can't remember them). Your group could change these by houseruling them, but the class itsself does not change them.

    Hope that answers your questions. I'll try to come up with and post more updates (all to the 1st post) as I am able.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Beast Warrior v1.1 [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Melayl View Post
    Feats:

    Beast Strike
    were did you find this feat?
    Last edited by nealpb; 2010-12-01 at 04:02 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Beast Warrior v1.1 [PEACH]

    It is from Dragon Magazine, (#355 p.76, I believe). You can find it on Crystal Keep as well.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Beast Warrior v1.1 [PEACH]

    i know this is a old post do u have any update for this class

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    Default Re: [3.5] Beast Warrior v1.1 [PEACH]

    I don't have any updates at the moment. What, in particular, were you looking for? I might be able to work on something...

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    Default Re: [3.5] Beast Warrior v1.1 [PEACH]

    Someones going to shoot me for this but...
    Quote Originally Posted by Melayl View Post
    If you suffer from Constitution loss, you lose BP equal to the change in your modifier x your beast warrior level.
    level 3
    Suffer a -2 to Con
    lose BP equal to -1 x 3
    lose -3 BP
    gain 3 BP

    also, do bonuses to give you bonus BP?
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