Fighter7/Crusader1

[Evard]

So a friend of mine said he was joining a group already in play and wanted to know the best way to stat up and what armor a Fighter7/Crusader1 should be. I've never dealt with Tome of Battle so I don't know how to fix up a crusader at all. Also I was looking in the tome of battle and the maneuvers and stances section seems odd...Can Bolstering Voice be chosen as either a maneuver or stance? Which ones will be good to take later on?

The way he wants to make the character
>Human
>Shield + Bastard Sword for melee
>Longbow for ranged
>Crazy character who will surprise party members and enemies

Since he is 8th level WBL 27,000 gp

oh and he said something about a modified swordbow.. are these worth the cost?

**edit i noticed that it says (stance) in some descriptions, i didn't notice that the first time i was reading the maneuvers and stances**

[Faleldir]

Why does he have an odd number of Fighter levels?

[ashmanonar]

So a friend of mine said he was joining a group already in play and wanted to know the best way to stat up and what armor a Fighter7/Crusader1 should be. I've never dealt with Tome of Battle so I don't know how to fix up a crusader at all. Also I was looking in the tome of battle and the maneuvers and stances section seems odd...Can Bolstering Voice be chosen as either a maneuver or stance? Which ones will be good to take later on?

The way he wants to make the character
>Human
>Shield + Bastard Sword for melee
>Longbow for ranged
>Crazy character who will surprise party members and enemies

Since he is 8th level WBL 27,000 gp

oh and he said something about a modified swordbow.. are these worth the cost?

**edit i noticed that it says (stance) in some descriptions, i didn't notice that the first time i was reading the maneuvers and stances**

I'd take the Crusader level(s) 1st. More skill points from 1st level build.

Also to echo what was said above: an odd number of Fighter levels? Inconceivable!

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Stances must be taken as stances. They merely count as maneuvers of X level, Y discipline for purposes of qualifications. So, is something needs a 3rd level White Raven maneuver, Thicket of Blades will work, even though it can only be taken as a stance or through Martial Stance.

As for the build, I'd go Fighter 6 (Really, any even level of fighter less than this would work, too)/Crusader the rest. Grab the Dungeoncrasher variant, get a way to fly, and screw using a bow. Also, drop the shield unless this guy is going to use an animated one. Just not worth it otherwise.

EDIT: Also, grab crusader as late as possible, due to getting maximum benefit out of the maneuver selections. Other build options include something akin to Jack B. Quick or another variant on AoOs. Use maneuvers to get into position or pull something weird out when you need it, then prevent movement via Thicket of Blades.

[Mongoose87]

Better idea: Crusader 1/Fighter6/Crusader+1.

Betterer Idea: Crusader 8.

[Sinfire Titan]

Why does he have an odd number of Fighter levels?

Fixage. At most, a single level dip into Fighter to delay his final Stance.

[Flickerdart]

Fighter dips come in ones, twos or sixes. Anything else is questionable judgment on the player's part.

[Eldariel]

Fighter 4/Crusader 4 would be infinitely better. Exactly one less feat for 3 levels more of martial goodness and such. For his concept, provided he's gonna have a lighter armor ('cause he needs Dex to be any good with his Bow anyways), I'd make him Fighter 4/Ranger 2/Crusader 2 proceeding with Crusader from there on.

Ranger gets him Rapid Shot suddenly making him competent with his bow, Fighter qualifies him for Ranged Weapon Mastery and Crusader will take care of the melee. This won't be extremely optimized; same goes for all mix-up characters really and Sword & Board > Longbow is far from the best way of doing said combination that's already inherently subpar.


But yeah, I hope he's got a party Wizard/Cleric fixing him up with Greater Magic Weapon for all day. That'll be a start. Cleric with Magic Vestment will further help; keeps the costs of the Shield & Armor down. If he's feeling rich, he'll eventually invest in Pearl of Power III to make up for the lost slot.

He really should focus on maneuvers that deal damage. To get something outta his shield, I'd first use the Fighter-variant in Races of Stone to trade Tower Shield Proficiency for Extreme Shield-proficiency, and pick up one of those. Then I'd take Shield Specialization and Shield Ward-feats, along with Shield Slam quite possibly.



Overall, putting it all together:
Str = Dex > Con > Cha > Int > Wis - preferably really high Dex and Str if he intends on not-failing with his bow. All level-ups go to Str.

Stuff to pick up:
- Exoticist [DR310] Fighter; gains free Exotic Weapon Proficiency thus making Bastard Sword not-horrible. This would actually get him Greatbow proficiency for free.
- Tower Shield Prof > Extreme Shield Prof [Races of Stone].


Classes in order:
Ranger 1 (most skill points)
Fighter 1
Fighter 2
Fighter 3
Crusader 1
Fighter 4
Ranger 2
Crusader 2

Feats:
1. Weapon Focus: Bow, Improved Shield Bash
2. Shield Specialization, (Extreme Shield Proficiency), (Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword)
3. Shield Ward, Shield Slam
6. Extra Granted Maneuver, Weapon Specialization: Longbow
7. Rapid Shot
(9. Ranged Weapon Mastery)

Equipment should focus on being as versatile as possible; e.g. Boots of Speed and Strongarm Bracers are fine options, while magical weapons are going to be mediocre in the combination.


I guess that'll make him reasonably competent in both, though it lays a huge burden on the maneuvers to pick up the slack for his damage. Is he really hellbent on going Sword & Board and archery and not doing some more functional combinations like two-hand + thrown weapons or dual wield + crossbows? And why in the bloody nine hells does he need a fcking Bastard Sword?!

[Evard]

Apparently that's what the DM gave him to start off with.

edit: it has to be fighter7/crusader 1 to start with

[ericgrau]

Why does he have an odd number of Fighter levels?

Because he plans on playing this character for more than 1 level.

[Eldariel]

Fighter 7/Crusader 1 S&B Archer is not happening. Does he at least get some Archery ToB school or does he need to feat all the uses for that too?

[Person_Man]

Theoretically Fighter 11 isn't horrible if you're using 4 different variants (Exotic Shield, Dungeoncrasher, Resolute, and Zhentarim Fighter). Scroll down to "Stock Fighter Advice" in my melee combo guide. It will give you level by level advice for the Fighter.

Also, WTF? Why would a DM "give" a player a character, especially a nerfed one? Even if the player is brand spanking new, shouldn't the DM talk to the player about the type of character he envisions playing, and then build something playable around that?

[Sinfire Titan]

Apparently that's what the DM gave him to start off with.

edit: it has to be fighter7/crusader 1 to start with

The DM should be slapped. With lightning.


Is PH2 allowed? Because we can change that problem if it is.

[Eldariel]

Theoretically Fighter 11 isn't horrible if you're using 4 different variants (Exotic Shield, Dungeoncrasher, Resolute, and Zhentarim Fighter). Scroll down to "Stock Fighter Advice" in my melee combo guide. It will give you level by level advice for the Fighter.

Also, WTF? Why would a DM "give" a player a character, especially a nerfed one? Even if the player is brand spanking new, shouldn't the DM talk to the player about the type of character he envisions playing, and then build something playable around that?

Even Fighter 16 is somewhat servicable for Overpowering Attack on top of that whole deal, and Fighter 18...well, I guess it gets Weapon Supremacy, but that's already reaching.

But Crusader really would help a ton here, especially the second level giving 3rd level stuff. Alternatively, Fighter 8/Crusader 1 would be able to pick level 3s right off the bat, which would help a ton (not to mention, Extra Granted Maneuver).


If one really, really had to make something by those exact parameters, I'd use Exoticist Fighter with:

1. WF: Bow, PBS, Rapid Shot
2. Precise
3. Shield Spec
4. Shield Ward
6. Weapon Spec, Imp. Shield Bash
9. Extra Granted Maneuver, Ranged Weapon Mastery


But that ends up even crappier than the earlier build; it doesn't have Extra Granted Maneuver or Shield Slam for a long time and is just as crappy overall...

[Evard]

So far depending on what his DM says
32 pt buy
Str:16
Dex:16
Con:14
Int:8
Wis:8
Cha:14

After researching through the book I told him to try to get the Kamate (bastard sword), which explains his cha. But if he keeps the swordbow he can as a full round attack attack a monster within sword reach and if it drops can shift to the bow and keep attacking (probably taking rapid shot also).

*note* this is first level stats

[Gnaeus]

Fighter 7/Crusader 1

(F1) Power Attack
(F2) Exotic Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword
(F4) Improved Initiative
(F6) Shock Trooper
Human Heroic Destiny or Lucky Start
(L1) Improved Bull Rush
(L3) Endurance
(L6) Steadfast Determination

Stances: Martial Spirit
Maneuvers: Battle Leader's Charge, Shield Block, Leading the Attack, Tactical Strike, Mountain Hammer

Is how I would do it under these restrictions. "Surprise people" by usually going first and by not failing saving throws with that awful will save, or by killing anything you charge at.

Edit: I don't find the sword bow to be worth it. Just carry a bow. Like Cleave, the shots taken after dropping a foe aren't going to come into play very often, and especially for a martial adept who will often be taking standard action strikes instead of full attacks.

Max Str or Con.

[term1nally s1ck]

Beg to not take that Fighter L7, it's a completely dead level.

If it's strictly necessary, then we have to go cheesy. Take raptoran, or dragonborn, and the dungeoncrasher acf. Then pump bullrush. In fact, do that anyway.

Or, swap the fighter L7 for the Goliath LA, and buy it off.

As for Crusader stances/maneuvers: You have IL4, so L2 maneuvers only, and L1 stances.

Stance = Stonefoot Stance.
Maneuvers: Crusader's Strike, Foehammer, Charging Minotaur.

If your party is largely Martial, take Leading the Attack, and Battle Leader's Charge, and stick to White Raven and Devoted Spirit.

If it's quite mixed, or mostly casters, take Stone Vise, and Mountain Hammer, and stick to Stone Dragon and Devoted Spirit.

Or you could go with Stone Dragon/White raven, and don't take anything from devoted spirit, but focus on getting white raven tactics (you yourself are 'an ally', by the way.)

[Dacia Brabant]

I think the DM needs to be reasonable and at least let him make a Fighter 6/Crusader 2 for Dungeon Crasher + Thicket of Blades goodness, but otherwise I'm not seeing much in the way of capability here. And please please please don't have him take EWP: Bastard Sword. If he must use a bastard sword for roleplaying reasons, use it two-handed so he doesn't need to waste a feat on it and can get the +1.5 Str bonus to damage.

[Eldariel]

I think the DM needs to be reasonable and at least let him make a Fighter 6/Crusader 2 for Dungeon Crasher + Thicket of Blades goodness, but otherwise I'm not seeing much in the way of capability here. And please please please don't have him take EWP: Bastard Sword. If he must use a bastard sword for roleplaying reasons, use it two-handed so he doesn't need to waste a feat on it and can get the +1.5 Str bonus to damage.

Well, Exoticist-Fighter gets it for free. That's the only way though...

[Optimystik]

I think the DM needs to be reasonable and at least let him make a Fighter 6/Crusader 2 for Dungeon Crasher + Thicket of Blades goodness, but otherwise I'm not seeing much in the way of capability here. And please please please don't have him take EWP: Bastard Sword. If he must use a bastard sword for roleplaying reasons, use it two-handed so he doesn't need to waste a feat on it and can get the +1.5 Str bonus to damage.

Complete with a buckler or animated shield for the AC.

[ForzaFiori]

I think the DM needs to be reasonable and at least let him make a Fighter 6/Crusader 2 for Dungeon Crasher + Thicket of Blades goodness, but otherwise I'm not seeing much in the way of capability here. And please please please don't have him take EWP: Bastard Sword. If he must use a bastard sword for roleplaying reasons, use it two-handed so he doesn't need to waste a feat on it and can get the +1.5 Str bonus to damage.

If he's gonna use a Bastard Sword two-handed, tell him to just get a greatsword.

[Lycanthromancer]

When everything's said and done, it's actually a worse build for having burnt a feat on the bastard sword. If SaB is an absolute must have, either get an animated shield (and wield the sword two-handed) or use a longsword (call it a bastard sword; if it's intelligent, then Mommy-sword and Daddy-sword were two ships passing in the night [maybe literally]).

A one-level dip in master of masks could get him all exotic weapons, but this would be more useful for things like spiked chains and such, as most exotic weapons are worse than martial weaponry (and even some simple weapons).

Really, what's the story behind the enforced build? The more detail the better.

[Gnaeus]

Aye, the greatsword is actually a preferred weapon for all the crusader disciplines, whereas the bastard sword isn't. At least if he took greatsword or longsword he would qualify for blade meditation do the same damage and get a couple of free points of intimidate or diplomacy to go with his charisma.

[Dacia Brabant]

Well, Exoticist-Fighter gets it for free. That's the only way though...

Yeah but that assumes the DM is allowing Dragon Mag material, and even then like you showed it's still weak sauce.

Nothing wrong with two-handing a bastard sword, not even necessarily from a mechanics point of view. 1d10 is less than 2d6, but add 2 size increases and it comes out to the same base damage.

[jiriku]

Sad to say, but within these restrictions, he's just about set to have a character who isn't actually good at anything. What's the rest of the party look like? Depending on their class choice and playstyle, a sucky character might be a bad thing or might go unnoticed.

If the other players have strong characters, he's going to need some work. His first line of defense should be to lobby the DM for more freedom in creating a character. If he wants a well-protected, sword-wielding archer who can deal effective damage in melee and at range, he needs to be able to use every trick in the book, not get slotted into half a dozen sub-optimal choices of stat, gear, and class.

You should also ask him (because it makes a big difference in the advice we'll offer) is he DEAD-SET on his choice of race and gear, or finding that they may not be as good as he thought, is he willing to look at other options?

[Eldariel]

Yeah but that assumes the DM is allowing Dragon Mag material, and even then like you showed it's still weak sauce.

Nothing wrong with two-handing a bastard sword, not even necessarily from a mechanics point of view. 1d10 is less than 2d6, but add 2 size increases and it comes out to the same base damage.

No they don't. 2 increases on 1d10 => 2d8 => 3d8 and 2 increases on 2d6 => 3d6 => 4d6.

[Person_Man]

But that ends up even crappier than the earlier build; it doesn't have Extra Granted Maneuver or Shield Slam for a long time and is just as crappy overall...

Actually, I think Shield Bash + Shield Charge + Shield Slam while wielding a Shield of the Severed Hand (requires True Believer) is actually a very good idea for that ECL. Trip + Daze on a charge, plus Bull Rush once per round when an enemy attacks and misses you you. With Dungeoncrasher and a few decent Strikes and Stances, it's a serviceable build.

[Eldariel]

Actually, I think Shield Bash + Shield Charge + Shield Slam while wielding a Shield of the Severed Hand (requires True Believer) is actually a very good idea for that ECL. Trip + Daze on a charge, plus Bull Rush once per round when an enemy attacks and misses you you. With Dungeoncrasher and a few decent Strikes and Stances, it's a serviceable build.

Yeah, it's a fine build. The issue is, my listed build is not a Shield Charger. 'cause, y'know, there aren't enough feats to pick up all the stupid proficiencies and become decent at archery and pick Dungeoncrasher and all.

Alternatively, you can forget about archery and suck at it. Either doesn't seem very productive. Rapid Shot + Ranged Weapon Mastery makes you decent at archery, but means you won't be doin' much Shield-charging, nor melee combat in general. Either way, the build just needs a focus; something it's sorely lacking.

[Gnaeus]

Crusader doesn't help with archery at all, but it helps you be a decent melee combatant. If you have to pick one, and I think you do, you will be a better melee build than a ranged build.

Just carry a bow and rely on bab+8

[Lycanthromancer]

Go for bloodstorm blade, and throw your bow?