Vow of Poverty Fix

[Drolyt]

Ah, well, yes, that makes sense. Perhaps give them the Eidetic Wizard (basically what you just said) alternative from Dragon #313 instead of a spellbook?

As I've tried to explain to numerous DMs, I don't have old copies of Dragon lying around in my dorm. I'll check crystal keep, but failing that is there a link that explains that ability?

[arguskos]

As I've tried to explain to numerous DMs, I don't have old copies of Dragon lying around in my dorm. I'll check crystal keep, but failing that is there a link that explains that ability?

...it's exactly what it says on the tin? You memorize your spells rather than having a spellbook. Everything works exactly the same.

[Drolyt]

Found it. I'll add something to the op about it.

[Drolyt]

...it's exactly what it says on the tin? You memorize your spells rather than having a spellbook. Everything works exactly the same.

Alright I've added it under the special section. You have to give up Scribe Scroll and Summon Familiar, but neither of those could actually be used with VoP.

[Zexion]

I like the change. Although for wizards, a bonus to AC is really useful.

[Jane_Smith]

D00ds. Wizard's dont need spellbooks. They can tattoo spells on their skin as a spellbook. Not to mention they can take Spell Mastery.

[Drolyt]

D00ds. Wizard's dont need spellbooks. They can tattoo spells on their skin as a spellbook. Not to mention they can take Spell Mastery.

Oddly enough, Spell Mastery doesn't work without a spellbook. It's only useful for somebody who has a spellbook and then loses it. Also the tatoos still cost money, which defeats the purpose of this feat. I think my fix works better.

I like the change. Although for wizards, a bonus to AC is really useful.

Not as much as many of the magic items the wizard will be missing out on.

[arguskos]

D00ds. Wizard's dont need spellbooks. They can tattoo spells on their skin as a spellbook. Not to mention they can take Spell Mastery.

The former is just as much a variant as Eidetic Spellcaster, and the latter is only good for a handful of spells and only one prestige class (though that PrC is AWESOME).

In any case, a tattooed VoP wizard would be good too.

[Zexion]

The former is just as much a variant as Eidetic Spellcaster, and the latter is only good for a handful of spells and only one prestige class (though that PrC is AWESOME).

In any case, a tattooed VoP wizard would be good too.

No kidding.
Four words. Archmage. Vow. Of. Poverty.

[Drolyt]

No kidding.
Four words. Archmage. Vow. Of. Poverty.

That would be sweet. VoP would also cut down on the absurd feat requirements.

[Surgo]

If you're level 5, you can use Secret Page to make a spellbook and not spend any cash on it.

[Drolyt]

If you're level 5, you can use Secret Page to make a spellbook and not spend any cash on it.

Technically it's still worth the same amount though, so evil DMs will try to ruin this feat for them (though why said DM would've allowed the feat in the first place I'm not sure).

[Zexion]

If you're level 5, you can use Secret Page to make a spellbook and not spend any cash on it.

The spell? I think that costs cash, or, if not cash, then just think about what you are doing. You are making a page that you will use almost every day that you have made invisible.

[blueblade]

Question: With the diminishing ECL being the only penalty for violation, what stops my VoP fighter picking up and using a +5 weapon for the duration of the next encounter? As far as I can see, nothing. Since it's only a small fraction of a week, I lose no ECL.

In fact, I could kit myself out in full for a major encounter I know is coming up, then get rid of it all afterward, with no penalty.

[imp_fireball]

If you are good aligned then any surplus wealth must be donated to the poor, if you are evil aligned you must destroy it in a sacrifice to a dark god or archfiend, and if you are neutral you may choose either option.

Why not destroy your possessions just to make your team mates cry at not getting the opportunity to have or sell them and then kick a dog for good measure if you're evil? Atheists can be evil too.

Also, if you're good, the moral policy should be GM defined. Donating to the poor is a cliche example. But it could also be something like a project that the community supports (the lawful good solution), or the funding of a rebellion against a tyrant (the chaotic good solution). Those are just examples, obviously.

In fact, I could kit myself out in full for a major encounter I know is coming up, then get rid of it all afterward, with no penalty.

Take a level in Hur Priest to reassert your ability to find ways of defying the gods making you lose your feat features first.

[Drolyt]

Question: With the diminishing ECL being the only penalty for violation, what stops my VoP fighter picking up and using a +5 weapon for the duration of the next encounter? As far as I can see, nothing. Since it's only a small fraction of a week, I lose no ECL.

In fact, I could kit myself out in full for a major encounter I know is coming up, then get rid of it all afterward, with no penalty.

What diminishing ECL? Someone suggested something like that in the comments, but its not in the feat. If you use even a single magic item you lose the benefits of this feat until you make an atonement.

Why not destroy your possessions just to make your team mates cry at not getting the opportunity to have or sell them and then kick a dog for good measure if you're evil? Atheists can be evil too.

Also, if you're good, the moral policy should be GM defined. Donating to the poor is a cliche example. But it could also be something like a project that the community supports (the lawful good solution), or the funding of a rebellion against a tyrant (the chaotic good solution). Those are just examples, obviously.

I'll add in something saying that with DMs approval you can do other things with your wealth. Also, I don't think there are atheists in most D&D campaigns. The gods like to smash in their windows.

[Zexion]

Why not destroy your possessions just to make your team mates cry at not getting the opportunity to have or sell them and then kick a dog for good measure if you're evil? Atheists can be evil too.

Also, if you're good, the moral policy should be GM defined. Donating to the poor is a cliche example. But it could also be something like a project that the community supports (the lawful good solution), or the funding of a rebellion against a tyrant (the chaotic good solution). Those are just examples, obviously.



Take a level in Hur Priest to reassert your ability to find ways of defying the gods making you lose your feat features first.

Or you could donate as a Good person would, but instead towards an Evil cause. For example, a Hobgoblin orphanage that trains the little ones to fight the Good guys.

[Drolyt]

Or you could donate as a Good person would, but instead towards an Evil cause. For example, a Hobgoblin orphanage that trains the little ones to fight the Good guys.

I'm not sure how strictly evil that one is. It's still an orphanage, even if its a Hobgoblin orphanage where they learn to fight the Hobgoblin's enemies.

[Zexion]

Well, what about an "orphanage" where the children of the slain enemies of the Hobgoblin race are fattened up before eating? That Evil enough for you?
MWAHAHAHAHA

[Drolyt]

Well, what about an "orphanage" where the children of the slain enemies of the Hobgoblin race are fattened up before eating? That Evil enough for you?
MWAHAHAHAHA

Hmm, well the villains in my campaigns don't usually carry cards, and at any rate that just seems horribly impractical.

[Ralasha]

One problem I have with the inability to gain treasure with the VoP is this: You cannot save money for those who need it. You cannot save money to build a temple. You cannot save money to help a starving community. You cannot save money for any reason noble, or otherwise. Because: You cannot have money. "I'm sorry sally, you're little brother had to starve to death horribly, because I'm not allowed to have money to save people's lives, or for any other reason. He had to die, don't worry though, you can't eat either because you have no food. You'll soon be joining him." I'm a hero!

[Kobold-Bard]

One problem I have with the inability to gain treasure with the VoP is this: You cannot save money for those who need it. You cannot save money to build a temple. You cannot save money to help a starving community. You cannot save money for any reason noble, or otherwise. Because: You cannot have money. "I'm sorry sally, you're little brother had to starve to death horribly, because I'm not allowed to have money to save people's lives, or for any other reason. He had to die, don't worry though, you can't eat either because you have no food. You'll soon be joining him." I'm a hero!

This is an issue with VoP in general, not just this version. Was it really worth necro-ing this one just to say that?

It says you give it to charity as soon as is reasonable. As long as you genuinely plan to submit it to the needy I would let you keep money until you found a worthy cause.

Found being the operative word; you're an ascetic, not Bono. By accepting a life of material abstinence you acknowledge that you can't hoarde wealth, and the most worthy cause is the one you can help right now, not the starving kids in a particular village that you might happen across in 6 months (though if you take the necessary steps: begging for paper and postal services to inform the recipients I would let you earmark the wealth for a particular cause, assuming it was in your direct path).

[Ralasha]

This is an issue with VoP in general, not just this version. Was it really worth necro-ing this one just to say that?

It says you give it to charity as soon as is reasonable. As long as you genuinely plan to submit it to the needy I would let you keep money until you found a worthy cause.

Found being the operative word; you're an ascetic, not Bono. By accepting a life of material abstinence you acknowledge that you can't hoarde wealth, and the most worthy cause is the one you can help right now, not the starving kids in a particular village that you might happen across in 6 months (though if you take the necessary steps: begging for paper and postal services to inform the recipients I would let you earmark the wealth for a particular cause, assuming it was in your direct path).

I actually have a fix for that myself, which a DM of mine came up with, where Vow of Poverty allows a certain ammount of money to be held by the person with the vow based upon their level, though they cannot spend any money upon their self. It was something small, like 5 silver per hit die. It was allowed for such instances as that. They may hold it in case they come across someone in need. If they ever spend any of it for their own need, they loose vow of poverty until they perform an attonement.

[Khaladon]

What diminishing ECL? Someone suggested something like that in the comments, but its not in the feat. If you use even a single magic item you lose the benefits of this feat until you make an atonement.

I'm assuming this statement doesn't apply to the Variant Rule you came up with?

Also, I've never come across the term "Class Tier" before. Would someone mind listing what classes fall into which tiers? Or at least pointing to a link which does so?

Finally, I haven't seen anyone speak about the Variant Rule yet; what are the general thoughts on it?

[jiriku]

JaronK's Tier System of Classes

FYI Drolyt, if you're still paying attention to this thread: I like the recent changes involving the wizard spellbook. Well done.

[Duskranger]

Maybe a stupid question, but would it be possible to let this one go into the Epic levels?

I mean what would be the progression of this feat in that case?

[Ralasha]

that link is broken, try again squidworth.

[Custos Sophiae]

Extending into epic should be straighforwards, since many of the abilities are at regular anyway.

Force armour applies every third level, so +11 armour bonus at level 21 etc. Deflection is also regular, +6 deflection bonus at level 24, etc. Natural armour is capped, and endure elements only applies once, so neither extends to epic. Empowered strike is regular, but at epic levels should also allow for epic enchantments: alignment blast, dread, ever-dancing.

Ability enhancement, resistance, energy resistance, and spell resistance all extrapolate smoothly. Extend the bonus feats to epic bonus feats every nth level, adjusting for balance. Sustenance, greater sustenance, mind shielding and fortification don't extend. Flight could be extended, with a speed up every 6 levels, but teleport probably work better. Throw in plane shift, to the alignment plane only, both gained at level 24. Damage reduction can continue increasing by 5 every 5 levels.

The remaining abilities are only gained once, so wouldn't extend. Possibly though, being an outsider, you could start gaining spells from the appropriate alignment domain every nth level, frequency adjusted for balance. E.g at level 21, and every 3rd level after, gain your choice of spells from the alignment domain: first and second level spells usable at will as a supernatural ability, third through fifth at will as a SLA, sixth through eight 3/day, and 9th 1/day. For slightly more flexibility, neutral good/evil/law/chaos get to pick from 2 additional compatible domains as well as their alignment, while the other alignments get both component alignment domains plus one other. True neutrals get free choice of 3 domains.

[Drolyt]

Extending into epic should be straighforwards, since many of the abilities are at regular anyway.

Force armour applies every third level, so +11 armour bonus at level 21 etc. Deflection is also regular, +6 deflection bonus at level 24, etc. Natural armour is capped, and endure elements only applies once, so neither extends to epic. Empowered strike is regular, but at epic levels should also allow for epic enchantments: alignment blast, dread, ever-dancing.

Ability enhancement, resistance, energy resistance, and spell resistance all extrapolate smoothly. Extend the bonus feats to epic bonus feats every nth level, adjusting for balance. Sustenance, greater sustenance, mind shielding and fortification don't extend. Flight could be extended, with a speed up every 6 levels, but teleport probably work better. Throw in plane shift, to the alignment plane only, both gained at level 24. Damage reduction can continue increasing by 5 every 5 levels.

The remaining abilities are only gained once, so wouldn't extend. Possibly though, being an outsider, you could start gaining spells from the appropriate alignment domain every nth level, frequency adjusted for balance. E.g at level 21, and every 3rd level after, gain your choice of spells from the alignment domain: first and second level spells usable at will as a supernatural ability, third through fifth at will as a SLA, sixth through eight 3/day, and 9th 1/day. For slightly more flexibility, neutral good/evil/law/chaos get to pick from 2 additional compatible domains as well as their alignment, while the other alignments get both component alignment domains plus one other. True neutrals get free choice of 3 domains.

This is more or less how it would go for Epic Levels. Most of the gains are incremental, just increase them. Beyond that I'm not sure, I'm not good with balance at Epic levels (not that there is much).

[NecroticPunch]

I'm not sure if this is addressed in here... But how does a wizard cast spells that require a costly material component. For example; a wizard would be casting something similar to ' Animate Dead ' and would be required to have a onyx gem worth a value. Because of this, you wouldn't be able to cast many spells.