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    Default (3.5) F&K-inspired Feat Combinations: Cleave, Light and Heavy Armor Optimizations

    Okay, let's try following the F&K progression...

    Cleave

    Type: General

    You can follow through with powerful blows.

    Prerequisite: Str 13+, Power Attack

    Benefits: This is a combat feat that scales with your Base Attack Bonus

    +0:If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points, killing it, etc.), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature in the immediate vicinity. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round, and it counts towards your allowed number of attacks of opportunities.
    +1: You have no limit to the number of times you can use cleave per round.
    +6: You may take a 5-ft step before making a cleave attack. This 5-ft step is in addition to the normal 5-ft step you may take before or after your actions.
    +11: If, on a Cleave attack, you deal enough damage to a creature to make it drop, all enemies within your reach must succeed on a Will Save (DC Strength bonus + Intimidate) or become Shaken for 1d4 rounds. This is an extraordinary mind-affecting fear effect.
    +16: As cleave, but you may make a full attack, rather than a single attack.

    Special: A fighter may select Cleave as one of his fighter bonus feats.

    ***********************************

    Heavy Armor Optimization

    Type: General

    You have trained extensively in heavy armor, and you have learned to take advantage of the protection it offers.

    Prerequisite: Armor Profiency (heavy)

    Benefits: This is a combat feat that scales with your Base Attack Bonus

    +0: When you are wearing heavy armor, lessen the armor check penalty of the armor by 1 and increase the armor bonus by 1.
    +1: Ignore movement penalties due to the armor that you are wearing. Your armor still counts toward your carrying capacity, and you take normal penalties if you become encumbered.
    +6: The armor check penalty is lessened by a total of 3, and the armor bonus is increased by a total of 2 (this includes the bonuses from previous iterations of this feat).
    +11: The armor check penalty is lessened by a total of 5, your maximum dexterity increases by 1, and the armor bonus is increased by a total of 4.
    +16: While wearing heavy armor, you gain DR 10/-. If you already have some form of DR, your existing DR improves by +10.

    Special: A fighter may select Heavy Armor Optimization as one of his fighter bonus feats.

    ************************************

    Light Armor Optimization

    Type: General

    You have trained extensively in light armor, and you have learned to take advantage of the protection it offers while maximizing your movement and agility.

    Prerequisite: Armor Profiency (light)

    Benefits: This is a combat feat that scales with your Base Attack Bonus

    +0: When you are wearing light armor, increase the maximum dexterity of your armor by 1, and decrease any armor check penalty by 1.
    +1: You may tumble at your full speed while wearing light armor.
    +6: The maximum dexterity of your armor increases by another 1, for a total bonus of 2 due to this feat, and the armor bonus is increased by 1.
    +11: The armor bonus of this feat increases by 1, to a total of 2. As well, you may ignore the maximum dexterity limit on light armors.
    +16: The armor check penalty of any light armor you wear is reduced to 0.

    Special: A fighter may select Heavy Armor Optimization as one of his fighter bonus feats.
    Last edited by Barbarian MD; 2010-12-20 at 02:16 PM.
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    Default Re: F&K-inspired Feat Combinations: Cleave and Heavy Armor Optimization

    First, you are aware that Tome feats scale on a 0/1/6/11/16 basis, yes?

    Second, there already is a Tome feat based on Cleave (Horde Breaker). I'm guessing you're aware of this, but just in case. If you are doing this because that one is considered too powerful (?) or don't like the Combat Reflexes integration I suppose I can understand that, though again, just verifying.

    Third, you could allow a full attack (or even just more than one) on a Cleave attempt for the +16 ability. It's more balanced if you're limited by attacks of opportunity as in the original, but just a thought.

    Fourth, not sure if you're playing by them, but Tome armor rules already cover most of what is in your second feat. Otherwise it's fine, I think, since AC scaling is far enough behind to-hit scaling that a +2 shouldn't make a serious splash on the RNG.

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    Default Re: F&K-inspired Feat Combinations: Cleave and Heavy Armor Optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Jota View Post
    First, you are aware that Tome feats scale on a 0/1/6/11/16 basis, yes?
    Yeah, I made the Heavy Armor Optimization one first, and I was basing it off the exact wording of Heavy Armor Optimization and Greater Heavy Armor Optimization, which have a requirement of +4 and +8. My DM said, "add some bigger ones to keep progressing it." So when I made the Cleave one I just stuck to the same progression. I suppose I can modify it to follow the F&K progression, but then I'll have to come up with more benefits!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jota View Post
    Second, there already is a Tome feat based on Cleave (Horde Breaker). I'm guessing you're aware of this, but just in case. If you are doing this because that one is considered too powerful (?) or don't like the Combat Reflexes integration I suppose I can understand that, though again, just verifying.
    I actually missed this one as I was thinking over how to advance Cleave.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jota View Post
    Third, you could allow a full attack (or even just more than one) on a Cleave attempt for the +16 ability. It's more balanced if you're limited by attacks of opportunity as in the original, but just a thought.
    That's a good idea. You don't think it'd be overpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jota View Post
    Fourth, not sure if you're playing by them, but Tome armor rules already cover most of what is in your second feat. Otherwise it's fine, I think, since AC scaling is far enough behind to-hit scaling that a +2 shouldn't make a serious splash on the RNG.
    The trouble that I'm running into is that no amount of armor bonus can seem to phase the enemies we're running into right now. Our 11th-level characters were just hit with a Wail of the Banshee, so pumping AC into the 40s does nothing but make power attack less attractive. My goal with the Heavy Armor Optimization was to begin to establish some extra measure of AC.

    More than that, though, I'm hoping to give us some additional mobility and DR, since we're being hit every turn anyway.
    Last edited by Barbarian MD; 2010-02-01 at 04:20 PM.
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    Default Re: F&K-inspired Feat Combinations: Cleave and Heavy Armor Optimization

    Regarding the power of the full attack, probably not too much, since there's still some fairly specific requirements that have to be met (kill, enemy close by), though if your DM thinks otherwise or play-testing proves otherwise you could lower it. Also, assuming you're still using standard (non-Tome) BAB progression I'd have further reason to believe it's okay since it's probably your first two attacks doing most of the real damage anyway.

    I also get what you're saying about armor, and assuming normal rules those are good additions.

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    Default Re: F&K-inspired Feat Combinations: Cleave and Heavy Armor Optimization

    How's this for the wording?

    +16: As cleave, but you may make a full attack, rather than a single attack.


    I must admit, I'm picturing in my mind a very, very dramatic cleave scenario with the addition of a full-attack cleave option. The character that I'm playing with is going to be Colossal while raging (Were-Bear + Penny Dreadful Barbarian + Permanancied Enlarge Person), so if he kills someone, and there's an army of mooks surrounding him, there's going to be a lot of carnage once we hit level 16... Of course, I suppose that means my DM will just make it that much harder to kill mooks. Ah, Escalation, how I love you!
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    Default Re: F&K-inspired Feat Combinations: Cleave and Heavy Armor Optimization

    I think that's fine. And yes, it does allow for the epic, but if it really isn't anymore epic than what a cleric or wizard can do (and let's be honest, mooks exist to have their parts handed to them), then it's hard to say it's not appropriate.

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    Default Re: F&K-inspired Feat Combinations: Cleave and Heavy Armor Optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Jota View Post
    Second, there already is a Tome feat based on Cleave (Horde Breaker). I'm guessing you're aware of this, but just in case. If you are doing this because that one is considered too powerful (?) or don't like the Combat Reflexes integration I suppose I can understand that, though again, just verifying.
    it doesn't hurt to provide some effect redundancy when the feats have multiple abilities, some of which are not really suitable or desirable in a certain concept.

    also, i have told them that melee f&k feats will be judged a little more harshly than ranged feats.

    Third, you could allow a full attack (or even just more than one) on a Cleave attempt for the +16 ability. It's more balanced if you're limited by attacks of opportunity as in the original, but just a thought.
    good idea. i will wait to see what the rest of the playgrounders say before i make my judgment though (i'm the DM); by level 16, it doesn't strike me as overpowered, but that is potentially a never-ending turn there.

    Quote Originally Posted by mhvaughan View Post
    The trouble that I'm running into is that no amount of armor bonus can seem to phase the enemies we're running into right now.
    that's not entirely true. you have one of the lower ACs in the group (33 buffed); kelurn's and kuru's are admirably high. notice that kelurn rarely gets hit, and kuru gets hit even less often (one of the few things a monk is good at), and usually only when he's dumb enough to try to leap attack a boss.

    kyrill gets hit a lot more than them, partially because he has a lower AC than everyone except for the casters (not front line usually), and partially because he is attacked more often (he's a giant fullblade-wielding werebear––kind of wears a neon sign in melee that says, "take me out now so that i can't throw a castle at you next round."

    Our 11th-level characters were just hit with a Wail of the Banshee,
    for those unfamiliar with the game i am running, i am not necessarily being sadistic throwing wail of the banshee at 11th level characters. they are a moderate to heavily optimized group of gestalt characters with few limitations on what they can and cannot do, and many houserules that actually increase their power. the encounters are never spot-on, but i try to make them appropriate to their capability.

    so pumping AC into the 40s does nothing but make power attack less attractive.
    however, that is one of the better ways to mitigate ridiculous amounts of damage; elric was killed not because bhairadya got a lot of attacks against him, but because bhairadya cranked his power attack up to full against a flat-footed foe and did over 200 damage. otherwise it would have been between 80-120 or so.

    My goal with the Heavy Armor Optimization was to begin to establish some extra measure of AC.
    perfectly reasonable goal.

    so far, i like both of your feats, though i do think it reasonable to make the BAB progression match the normal f&k feats. but it doesn't bother me if you want to stick with the old feats' prereqs as the basis for progression. this is supposed to be mostly about providing scaling feats, and the f&k thing just kind of fell into it because they provide a good template for doing so––but you don't have to feel like every feat you homebrew has to fit their mold.
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    Default Re: F&K-inspired Feat Combinations: Cleave and Heavy Armor Optimization

    I've updated the feats to use the F&K progression, and I've started a new feat for light armor. Let me know what you think, and if you have any suggestions!
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    Default Re: (3.5) F&K-inspired Feat Combinations: Cleave, Light and Heavy Armor Optimizations

    your cleave feat goes +0, +1, +11, +6, +11, +16.

    for light armor optimization, there is no reason that i can think of why you should be suffering any kind of armor check or max dex penalty by 16th level. maybe totally kill the armor check penalty by 16th level, and the max dex by 11th level.

    i don't see any reason why heavy armor optimization should offer epic dr at 20th level; not to mention the fact that it is breaking from the 0, 1, 6, 11, 16 pattern that we had just moved to.
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    Default Re: (3.5) F&K-inspired Feat Combinations: Cleave, Light and Heavy Armor Optimizations

    *multiple facepalms*
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