Help with monk build 3.5

[iElf]

Hi, I've decided to play a human monk in our next campaign, and as I've never played one before , I'd like to get some ideas and tips for makeing /playing one

[Faleldir]

Don't take more actual Monk levels than strictly necessary.

[faceroll]

Starting level, method of stat generation, books available, and houserules?

Do you want to play a martial arts themed character or do you want to play a build based around the monk in the PHB?

There are a couple useful dips, one is barbarian 1 for pounce (complete champion alternate class feature) and another is shiba protector (oriental adventures) which gets you wisdom to attacks & damage.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Don't take more actual Monk levels than strictly necessary.

Two is generally considered the right amount.

Some questions to OP:
What sources are available?
What general power level are you aiming for?
What level do you start?
Houserules?

[JeenLeen]

Monks are generally considered one of the worse classes, in terms of comparative power and ability to add to a party, especially if the other players are using full-spellcasting classes or optimized. That, although it does not mean you shouldn't play a monk, may explain some comments about the monk class.

I'm not familiar with them, but there are tricks through a multitude of buffs to get your fist-damage very high. I know Fist of the Forest is a good PrC from Complete Champion and helps monk fist damage. It also has some interesting flavour, although it basically prohibits you from any city-oriented plot.

Edit: I would agree with getting out after level 2, getting your good saves, BAB, and Evasion. One book has a lot of alternative class features for fighting styles, which give you different bonus feats. Also on the srd:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...FightingStyles

[Starbuck_II]

Two is generally considered the right amount.

Some questions to OP:
What sources are available?
What general power level are you aiming for?
What level do you start?
Houserules?

5 lowers Flurry, improves damage, speed, Ki Strike, etc. Granted 2 is not bad.

[Kurald Galain]

Hi, I've decided to play a human monk in our next campaign, and as I've never played one before , I'd like to get some ideas and tips for makeing /playing one

Do you want to play a meditative character competent at unarmed combat, or do you want to play a member of the class called "monk"?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

{Scrubbed}

[Signmaker]

5 lowers Flurry, improves damage, speed, Ki Strike, etc. Granted 2 is not bad.

2-3 is usually the suggested value, 2 moreso than 3 because most people see Still Mind as droppable. It's the 4th level that's a pain to get, because unless you ACF-out Slow Fall it's essentially equivalent to a dead level.

[Sinfire Titan]

5 lowers Flurry, improves damage, speed, Ki Strike, etc. Granted 2 is not bad.

6 is considered the last level of Monk. 8 has been given an Honorable Mention due to an ACF, but is still considered unworthy.

[PhoenixRivers]

{Scrubbed}

Obligatory UMD reference.

[Melamoto]

Obligatory UMD reference.

Obligatory Monk 1/Wizard 19 Kung Fu Genius build.

[Faleldir]

Obligatory 10-page argument about dual-wielding unarmed strikes.

[ericgrau]

If you want to play an actual monk:
1. Non-humanoids and splatbook tricks will negate you. Make sure you're fighting humanoids, and not ones that all hover, are weaponless and can't be grabbed for odd reasons. Otherwise, see above tips and don't play an actual monk.

2. Never punch something unless you have no other options (see #1 if this is common). Learn the grapple and trip rules, or if the campaign is really humanoid focused you can disarm and stunning fist. Read tumble rules and tumble to the softies in the back line too. Basically make sure nothing can attack you with a weapon while standing, b/c your AC, AB and damage aren't so hot. Your grapple damage is excellent though - more than enough to make up for your grapple modifier - and you can make more trip/disarm/grapple-initiation attempts than other classes. Especially if you TWF monk weapons for an extra attack on top of your flurry. See individual rules on monk weapons. Remember you can 5 foot step in the middle of a full attack and decide on a target for each attack even after seeing the results of the previous attacks. That'll help you make those attempts on multiple targets.

3. Gear: ability score boosters, 4-5 different sources of AC, potions of enlarge person. Other potions and expendable items. Other than that you don't need much. If you already TWF some expensive emergency shurikens can be nice for low AC baddies like liches and so on.

4. Ability scores: Always strength first, then con, dex, wis, w/e. Wis before dex, maybe even before con (but still after strength) if you get stunning fist. Again, only stun if the campaign is crazy loaded with humanoids as your DC will keep up with even a fighter's fort save but not a monster's. EDIT: you have good stats so there's no need for weapon finesse. str 18, dex 17, con 16, wis 16, int 14, cha 10. You could also swap dex and con then pump con up to 18 at level 4. Otherwise pump strength every 4 levels. A 17 dex is good for improved two weapon fighting if you go that route, but gloves of dexterity could also give you enough dex.

[iElf]

Two is generally considered the right amount.

Some questions to OP:
What sources are available?
What general power level are you aiming for?
What level do you start?
Houserules?

Sources are the core books, the entire set of "complete" books, players handbook 2,books of exalted deeds, and vile darkness ,and The ebberon rulebook

I'm aiming for something that will be competent, but not overpowered, or Munchkinised.

We start at lvl 1

no houserules that are relevant to creating a char

my rolls are 18,17,16,16,14,10

the campaign will probably end at lvl 10 so planing after that is not really necessary

and yes...... i want to play THE monk class

[Rasman]

The general consenses is that "monks are bad" which I find to be only partly true. You're a supporting melee fighter and you don't really have a single niche that you can fill better than other classes, BUT, with a little help from your DM, you can be EXTREMELY effective.

Rule #1 of playing a monk, if it's REALLY big and there are smaller targets, but still relatively large threats, take out the smaller targets first and let the party fighter deal with the big things, you're probably not going to stun anything big unless they roll a 1 and Mooks are really more of your thing because they tend to have either pretty low damage or really bad to-hit.

Rule #2 your feats are IMPORTANT. If you're planning on playing Monk to 20, know exactly what you want to be able to do at 20. If you want to be a stunning master, go with feats like Pain Touch, Pharaoh's Fist, Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) and the like. If not, then research what feats make what you want to do better.

Rule #3 unless you're going to burn a feat to make your unarmed attacks deal slashing or piercing damage, always ALWAYS carry a weapon that can do either, just to be able to overcome damage reduction. If you take Combat Reflexes, a Reach Weapon, even if you're not profeciant with it, is your friend.

Rule #4 enjoy it, Monks are a really fun class, they're not the best by any means, but the flavor and the fact that you can literally never be disarmed, unless someone cuts your hands, feet and head off, in which case you're dead, is pretty cool. Just be sure to figure out what you want to do in the long run.

Stat wise, I'd go with 18 Str, 17 Dex, 16 Con, 16 Wis, 14 Int, 10 Cha

[SurlySeraph]

In that case, Human or Dwarf Monk 1 will be a perfectly competent build. Those are very nice stats; I'd go 18 STR, 17 Con, 16 Dex and Wis, 14 Int, 10 Cha. Take Stunning Fist as your Monk bonus, and take whatever 1st-level feat or feats you want, take Pain Touch (Complete Warrior) at 3rd level, and take Improved Natural Attack at 6th. If you're Human and so get two feats at 1st, I'd take Power Attack and Roundabout Kick (from Complete Warrior) to get an extra attack.

[Starbuck_II]

Rule #4 enjoy it, Monks are a really fun class, they're not the best by any means, but the flavor and the fact that you can literally never be disarmed, unless someone cuts your hands, feet and head off, in which case you're dead, is pretty cool. Just be sure to figure out what you want to do in the long run.

You could play a Lumi Monk. They can't be beheaded.

[ericgrau]

Hehe, 3 way consensus on stats can't argue with that.

[Jergmo]

I have a level 7 monk meant to terrorize my players and get them to work together...

6th level Cobra Strike human monk with 1 level of Shadowdancer.

Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Focus(Unarmed), Weapon Specialization(Unarmed), Spring Attack
(Er...house rule that makes Weapon Specialization not-fighter-only)

He ended up being fairly nasty in a fight. In a one-on-one, with NPC gear, he defeated an 8th level hobgoblin ninja that was beyond WBL for PCs and was allowed to have a couple of things I really shouldn't have let him have. It was a close fight, but eh. I quote my friend after the fight: "THAT WAS STUPID! MONKS CANNOT DO SUCH THINGS!"

Edit: *Looks at above posts* I'm off to Complete Warrior!

[Aldizog]

Sources are the core books, the entire set of "complete" books, players handbook 2,books of exalted deeds, and vile darkness ,and The ebberon rulebook

I'm aiming for something that will be competent, but not overpowered, or Munchkinised.

We start at lvl 1

no houserules that are relevant to creating a char

my rolls are 18,17,16,16,14,10

the campaign will probably end at lvl 10 so planing after that is not really necessary

and yes...... i want to play THE monk class

Much of the "don't play a monk" advice on this board is based around high-optimization games. In that case, the monk isn't as good. But if that isn't how your group works, the monk can be quite good. So, how much cheese you want to use depends on what your group is like.

You're using Book of Exalted Deeds. Vow of Poverty can be fun for a monk, even if it isn't optimal, because you really get the feel of "It's you, not your stuff." Which is one thing the monk flavor is all about. In a few fights at higher levels, you might need a caster to help you out with an Air Walk or Fly spell.

The Flying Kick feat looks like fun. Having a strong monk who can charge in and kick people in the head for 1d6+1d12+4 damage at level 1 is pretty nice. Add Cleave at level 3. Not because it's optimal, but because it's fun to charge in and roundhouse kick three orcs to the ground at once.

Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) might be worthwhile. Increases the DC by 2, which might mean a 20% increase in success rate (if a foe that needed an 11 now needs a 13).

In Races of the Wild, the halfling monk substitution level gives Skirmish (like a Scout of half level, rounded up) in place of flurry. See if your DM would allow that for any monk, as it synergizes much better with the monk's mobility than Flurry does.

[SurlySeraph]

Oh, I didn't notice that you were using BoED. Take Touch of Golden Ice. No matter what other feats you take, take Touch of Golden Ice. It's great at low levels, and still can be useful at higher levels.

[Mushroom Ninja]

In that case, the monk isn't as good. But if that isn't how your group works, the monk can be quite good. So, how much cheese you want to use depends on what your group is like.

Strangely, monks fare almost as badly in the mid-optimized and unoptimized games I've played in as in the highly optimized games. As a monk player, I think your best bet is to play a highly optimized monk in a mid-optimized game or a mid-optimized monk in an unoptimized game.

[Jergmo]

...Would it be possible to charge and use Spring Attack?

[Mushroom Ninja]

...Would it be possible to charge and use Spring Attack?

I don't think so. Charging is a full round action, not an attack, so it doesn't work with Spring Attack AFAIK.

[ericgrau]

I think a charge is a full round action and you need to combine spring attack with an attack action. But with monk speed it shouldn't be a big issue. EDIT: Ninja'd, appropriately enough.

[Kurald Galain]

You could play a Lumi Monk. They can't be beheaded.

Is there some way of playing Rayman? Then you can't be disarmed either...

[T.G. Oskar]

You're using Book of Exalted Deeds. Vow of Poverty can be fun for a monk, even if it isn't optimal, because you really get the feel of "It's you, not your stuff." Which is one thing the monk flavor is all about. In a few fights at higher levels, you might need a caster to help you out with an Air Walk or Fly spell.

The problem with Vow of Poverty is mostly the fact that it's a trap. Now, I'm not saying it's not roleplay worthy, but there's a few things that make the Vow of Poverty something along the lines of it.

One of the most important is the lack of an ability to fly without magic items. Monks by themselves have no ability that grants them flight, unless they are racially born with it. Monks aren't very good with most ranged attacks, and the few things that help them require both Stunning Fist and doing one single attack, not to mention a 3rd party rulebook (Ring the Golden Bell, or it's low-power counterpart Serpent's Fang from Sandstorm) Aside from that, the Monk won't be capable of contributing against flying creatures, which while not exactly abundant on the usual range of levels a player tends to play (anything perhaps less than 15th level), is still a challenge.

Another is how vulnerable you turn to a DM's whim. The Vow's restriction is quite solidly written, but a DM can use it completely against you. Since you're required to behave on an Exalted (not just good, though IMPO I'd cut some slack to that) manner, while leaving you pretty much unable to hold anything you haven't build or found yourself.

Finally, just how little of the class benefits the Monk nonetheless. You have several good things, or potentially good things, for the Monk: energy resistances, increased ability stats, some nice abilities. However, it still doesn't solve some of the things that even on unoptimized parties would happen: lack of BAB without a reasonable way to rack up hits, which leaves the Monk somewhere between a Fighter with low BAB and a Rogue without Sneak Attack; MAD (the increased ability stats only moderately fix that, but you have to decide whether Strength, Dexterity, Constitution OR Wisdom is more important) and most important of all, a lack of proper proportion between the acquired ability and the level in which you're supposed to have it. You could also argue that it doesn't solve some of the truly effective ways a Monk could have been used, such as how people mentioned Grapple, Disarm and Trip (which oddly do not favor the Monk even though they seem to be built for that), or proper scouting, or even handling spellcasters.

In the end, you'll still depend on your group to handle the events, and if you're playing with a blaster, a heal-bot and a fighter (and hey, maybe as a fifth member along with a skillmonkey), the Monk will still look out of place. What's worse, the blaster may not have Fly prepared (or Mass Fly, which is much better), and the heal-bot may not think of using proper buff spells. Vow of Poverty tends to make you look too optimized for the results, since it grants a huge amount of benefits; however, it has far more restrictions for making it useful.

If the intention is to go Vow of Poverty nonetheless, try to figure out how exactly getting the feat and the feat prerequisites will aid on what you're seeking as a Monk. Grappler? Get the arcanist to imbue you with Enlarge Person, and focus mostly on Strength and Grapple-enhancing feats. Spellcaster-bane? Get buffed and focus on getting to the caster and handling him down. Scout? Not much need to support in that one, actually, since Monks are pretty good scouts (high Wis, Listen and Spot, nice mobility, and a chance to pull off and alert the rest). But in the end, the party buffs will do much more for your Monk than the Vow itself, and that tends to beat the idea of "you, not your stuff" since you're turning that into the more prevalent "your pals' spells, not you".

Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) might be worthwhile. Increases the DC by 2, which might mean a 20% increase in success rate (if a foe that needed an 11 now needs a 13).

Stunning Fist is oddly easy to optimize, actually. You need a few stuff (like Ki Straps from Magic Item Compendium), Ability Focus, and mostly boosts to Wisdom. One of the benefits of Stunning Fist is it's DC scaling process (10 + 1/2 character level + ability mod.), since you can get an insanely high ability modifier and get a high (though not insanely high) DC amount. Consider that you're going with Fortitude, though, which means you need to rack up a save DC roughly equal to the usual Fortitude save for the level +11 to succeed, not to mention countering the Constitution bonus.

Also, Freezing the Lifeblood. Because paralyzed for more than one round is better than stunned for one. It's not going to be effective against immune to stun enemies, but by that moment you've probably gotten a nice tactic.

In Races of the Wild, the halfling monk substitution level gives Skirmish (like a Scout of half level, rounded up) in place of flurry. See if your DM would allow that for any monk, as it synergizes much better with the monk's mobility than Flurry does.

Skirmish is a tad harder to work with, but I agree; it does fit with the Monk's intended "mobile attacker" tactic. I'd say add Snap Kick (from ToB) to the mix if you can, since it works each time you make an attack action (which includes, ironically, Spring Attack and Charge).

Finally: if you're going for Ability Focus, might as well also go for Improved Natural Attack. Your fists count as such, so you get a further increase on your potential damage. Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack is as much a trap as Vow of Poverty does, but if you can somehow further it (Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz) along with Snap Kick, you can get about six hits on three different enemies while dashing along the battlefield.

If having a high Dex, Combat Reflexes + Decisive Strike (PHBII Alternate Class Feature) + Karmic Strike or Robilar's Gambit makes you also quite strong. The more attacks you can get along with Monk that deal double damage, the better.

[Rasman]

Oh, I didn't notice that you were using BoED. Take Touch of Golden Ice. No matter what other feats you take, take Touch of Golden Ice. It's great at low levels, and still can be useful at higher levels.

haha...that's kinda cute, I might pick that up sometime just because it amuses me, bad DC though, imo, especially if it's a fort save, but they'd have to Fail it eventually since you're gonna flurry with it...makes me wish I hadn't had to make Con a Dump stat because of bad rolls.

[Aldizog]

The problem with Vow of Poverty is mostly the fact that it's a trap. Now, I'm not saying it's not roleplay worthy, but there's a few things that make the Vow of Poverty something along the lines of it.

Well, the OP is only planning on the game going until level 10 or so, in which case I have found flight items for non-casters to be rare enough that VoP isn't that much of a problem. The VoP bonuses do look quite nice through level 10 (among other things, you don't run out of good Exalted feats to take by then).

IME, my druid cast Air Walk on the bard-barian all the way through level 20. Quickened Air Walk at higher levels, but still, it was not expected that all PCs would fly under their own power. YMMV. As I see it, most of the arguments against VoP (in general, not in your post) seem a little bit too focused on PvP arenas than actual games where the PCs cooperate. Through level 10, I'd guess that 9 times out of 10 the monk wouldn't need a boost from the party caster, though something like Haste is never unwanted. Oh, and skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel help out here for spotting invisible foes, another major drawback of VoP.