Warhammer 40K Tactics V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others.

[crazedloon]

Quick question: If I try to cobble together a Vostroyan squad or two, should they be geared as a regular Infantry Squad, or a Veteran Squad?

I figure if I gear them as a Veteran Squad, I can either get a Mortar or a pair of Snipers in order to give them Pinning.

I'm getting some Vostroyan snipers and mortars eventually, anyway, but I'm not sure what to do with them when I get 'em. Should the snipers be part of a Special Weapon Squad so they can ravage and pin from afar? Or should they be in a Veteran or Infantry squad? Should the mortars be in a Vet/Inf squad, or should I try to make a Vostroyan mortar squad?


I like to plan ahead.

If the rest of the army is Cadian, have them be your vet squads and have them equipped with meltaguns in a transport of your choice.

[Lycan 01]

No, I don't have 25 Vostroyans. That will take a LONG time.


My focus is on getting a second Cadian platoon. But every now and then, when I come across amazing Vostroyan deals, I'd like to take them. Eventually I hope to cobble together a Vostroyan Veteran Squad.

I saw 2 sets of Vost Mortars for $6.70 each at my FLGS, as well as two packs of Vost Sniper pairs for 12 dollars each at another FLGS. And since both kits are Pinning, and Pinning is awesome, I'd like to pick up some of these suckers eventually. Preferably the mortars, since they won't be there long probably...

So, should I get one mortar for a Vet squad, or both mortars and then a 3rd when I find another good deal in order to make another Heavy Weapon Squad?

[Cheesegear]

So, should I get one mortar for a Vet squad, or both mortars and then a 3rd when I find another good deal in order to make another Heavy Weapon Squad?

Honestly, if funds are a problem, you should only be buying what you need now. Rather than what you think you'll need 'one day'.

The standard Vet Squads are;
x3 Snipers, x1 Mortar
Or
x3 Meltaguns (plus Valkyrie)
(Doctrines to suit)

Think about getting these things.

[Lycan 01]

Funds aren't so much a problem right now, since I'm gonna work on the Imperial Guard at a casual pace. I probably won't get the Cadian battleforce until a couple of months from now and have it as my summer project, so I've got awhile to save up for that.

And like I said, I'd hate to miss such good deals. 7 dollars for a 16 dollar Mortar kit? That's a steal, in my opinion.


And one of the Vostroyans that came in the 2-man pack I got the other day has a Meltagun, so there's that. :3


Do Mortars and Snipers stack for Pinning tests, or is the test the same no matter what the number of weapons used it?

[Cheesegear]

Do Mortars and Snipers stack for Pinning tests, or is the test the same no matter what the number of weapons used it?

The test is the same if it's coming from the same squad. Due to the fact that Sniper Rifles are not really all that reliable (you need to take lots of them), and, neither are Mortars. The idea is to hedge your bets and at least try and get one kill.
Given that Rifles are Heavy, and so are Mortars, it's not like you're losing much.

[Lycan 01]

Oh, the weapons have to actually cause wounds to force the test? I thought the suppresive fire aspect caused the test...


If I can get the whole "Cadians converted to Vostroyans" thing to work, I'll consider getting both Mortars for 2 Infantry Squads, and hopefully make a Vostroyan platoon. Come to think of it, a Vostroyan platoon may be cheaper and cooler than a Cadian platoon... Maybe I should start crunching numbers on that...

[Cheesegear]

I thought the suppresive fire aspect caused the test...

I wish. If only the game was more like Dawn of War...Or 2nd Ed.

[Ricky S]

Speaking of mortars how do you think a full mortar army would go?

Ie Mortar heavy weapon teams, infantry with mortar attached and for heavy support Medusa's and a Basilisk. I am going to pack as many mortars as I can into my army, deploy in a corner and bombard everything. Also as I currently dont have a codex for Imperial Guard how many mortars do you think I could fit in?

[crazedloon]

well for 445 you get the most mortars for your buck (so to speak)

its a single platoon with minimum command(1) and infantry squad(2) (each with 1 mortar)
5 heavy weapons squads (with 3 mortars)

for a total of 18 mortars

2 of those units will get you half your army

now for HQ you probably want 2 master of Ordinance because they have super mortars

so that another 270 total (2 minimum squads with 1 mortar and 1 MoO)

well now comes the "hard" part that is heavy support choices. You want volume over quality but IMHO for this sort of list griffins give you both because they have good range (and don't need to worry about too close until its too late) but they are also more accurate and the cheapest of the barrage tanks.

3 squads of griffins will run you 225 so a total 675 for a all you heavy choices

withe extra points you should grab another platoon with 2 infantry squads to net you 3 more mortars

this army comes in at 1980 points and has
41 mortars
2 orbital blasts
9 griffin heavy mortars

now how good it is I don't know but you will love the scatter dice

also you can drop the griffins for more mortars if you really want (the max being 75 mortars and 2 orbital blasts or 18 and no blasts)

[Cheesegear]

Speaking of mortars how do you think a full mortar army would go?

Full mortars? Not very well. Pretty crap actually.

There is an upper limit to these sorts of things. Especially when 'maximum' Mortars comes at the cost of Lascannons and other Heavy Weapons. Imperial Guard need Lascannons.

15 Mortars (as 5 Heavy Weapon Teams) is more than enough and comes at the low, low cost of 300 points.

Still, you've already pointed out the fact that you don't have an Imperial Guard Codex. And without a Codex, most of this stuff is pointless.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I wish. If only the game was more like Dawn of War...Or 2nd Ed.

You seriously want the game to be more like second ed? Do you remember how close combat worked in that game? Or how unkillable greater demons were?

Though I guess overwatch was kind of cool...

[Talkkno]

You seriously want the game to be more like second ed? Do you remember how close combat worked in that game? Or how unkillable greater demons were?

Though I guess overwatch was kind of cool...

It matched fluff a lot better though.

[crazedloon]

It matched fluff a lot better though.

but that is what we have Dark Heresy for

[Winterwind]

Is it somehow possible for a Tyranid player to make his Swarm Tyrant (with Tyrant Guard) outflank? I've just had yet another game (and another crushing defeat), and am now looking through my Tyranid Codex and do not see any such possibility (he can make a Troop choice outflank, sure, but how does he outflank himself?).

As far as I can tell the opponent deployed at least 1500 points in a 1300 point game, too (some 40-50 genestealers in three broods, one of them with Brood Lord, a pretty big group of Ymgarl-Genestealers (about a dozen), an Alpha Trygon with regeneration, a Zoanthrope, a Swarm Tyrant with regeneration and two Tyrant Guards does not seem to add up to 1300), so I wouldn't be surprised if he had cheated there, too (he also claimed his Tyrant's whip reduced the Initiative of every enemy model he was in close combat with to 1, not merely those he was in base contact with). Just wondering if I am missing something.

And yes, he had his entire army outflank/deepstrike/appear out of nowhere. The only thing that started on the table on his side was the Zoanthrope.

[Closet_Skeleton]

So, how good would this guard army be? Any stupid mistakes?

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Company Command Squad - 100 points
camo cloaks, regimental standard, vox-caster, 1 sniper rifle, 1 medipack

10 ratlings - 100 points

9 ratlings - 90 points

Infantry platoon - 345 points
command squad - 3 sniper rifles, vox caster
infantry squad - lascannon, plasma gun,
infantry squad - lascannon, plasma gun,
infantry squad - lascannon, plasma gun, commissar, vox-caster

Infantry platoon - 345 points
command squad - 3 sniper rifles, vox caster
infantry squad - lascannon, plasma gun,
infantry squad - lascannon, plasma gun,
infantry squad - lascannon, plasma gun, commissar, vox-caster

Infantry platoon - 285 points
command squad - 3 sniper rifles, vox caster
infantry squad - heavy bolter, Grenade Launcher
infantry squad - heavy bolter, Grenade Launcher
infantry squad - heavy bolter, Grenade Launcher, commissar, vox-caster

Infantry platoon - 285 points
command squad - 3 sniper rifles, vox caster
infantry squad - Autocannon, Grenade Launcher
infantry squad - Autocannon, Grenade Launcher
infantry squad - Autocannon, Grenade Launcher, commissar, vox-caster


Infantry platoon - 270 points
command squad - 3 sniper rifles, vox caster
infantry squad - mortar, Grenade Launcher
infantry squad - mortar, Grenade Launcher
infantry squad - mortar, Grenade Launcher, commissar, vox-caster

2 griffon mortars - 150

total 1995 points

That's about £500 of guard so I'd never actually have that army.

And yes, he had his entire army outflank/deepstrike/appear out of nowhere. The only thing that started on the table on his side was the Zoanthrope.

I did that once against an Imperial Guard tank army. I got wiped out on turn 3 before my army came on.

Is it somehow possible for a Tyranid player to make his Swarm Tyrant (with Tyrant Guard) outflank? I've just had yet another game (and another crushing defeat), and am now looking through my Tyranid Codex and do not see any such possibility (he can make a Troop choice outflank, sure, but how does he outflank himself?).

He can't.

(he also claimed his Tyrant's whip reduced the Initiative of every enemy model he was in close combat with to 1, not merely those he was in base contact with).

While he was probably cheating, sometimes little things like this can just be mistakes. I played several games with outflanking raveners before I re-read the rules and realised I couldn't do that.

[crazedloon]

drop the plasma pistols and use the 40 points for pretty much anything else

[Winterwind]

So, how good would this guard army be? Any stupid mistakes?

I agree with crazedloon, drop the plasma pistols. Not worth the points.

I did that once against an Imperial Guard tank army. I got wiped out on turn 3 before my army came on.

In this case the Zoanthrope was hidden well out of sight behind a huge rock, so it was safe. And almost his entire army came in on turn 2 (due to the bonus his Swarm Tyrant gave him on his reserve rolls), the rest appeared on turn 3.

He can't.

Hrm. Alright, thanks.

While he was probably cheating, sometimes little things like this can just be mistakes. I played several games with outflanking raveners before I re-read the rules and realised I couldn't do that.

That's what I figured at the time, too (I read up that part in his codex during the game - of course only after the Tyrant had wiped out two thirds my Noise Marines and Khorne Berserkers who had both charged him the turn before with them not being allowed to strike simultaneously). I'd blame the outflanking Tyrant on such a mistake, too, were it not for his list being above the point limit, which seems to indicate a less than honest attitude to me.

[Closet_Skeleton]

drop the plasma pistols and use the 40 points for pretty much anything else

Already realised that myself. Decided to go for more ratlings instead. Maybe a griffon mortar, just because I like artillery.

In this case the Zoanthrope was hidden well out of sight behind a huge rock, so it was safe. And almost his entire army came in on turn 2 (due to the bonus his Swarm Tyrant gave him on his reserve rolls), the rest appeared on turn 3.

That's where infiltrators come in handy. Nothing stops them from deploying inside your opponent's deployment zone.

Did he have a hive tyrant or a swarmlord? The swarmlord adds +1 to reserve rolls but doesn't actually let a unit of troops outflank.

Which is a moot point if all his troops are genestealers.

[Winterwind]

That's where infiltrators come in handy. Nothing stops them from deploying inside your opponent's deployment zone.

Yeah... maybe I should get myself a group of Chosen after all.

Did he have a hive tyrant or a swarmlord? The swarmlord adds +1 to reserve rolls but doesn't actually let a unit of troops outflank.

Hive Tyrant. Sorry, I sometimes mess up the English names (the German translations tend to rename... just about everything).

Which is a moot point if all his troops are genestealers.

Yeah. Seems he (illegally) used the Hive Tyrant's power on himself and his Guard.
Suddenly having a Hive Tyrant in one's flank, pulling off an immediate assault, is not a pretty sight, I tell you.

[grinner666]

though it could be cool I find it to much of a fluff thing to change because they stress the fact that psykers have no place in DE society (indeed one of their magic items is a box of tortured psyker souls)

I think the reasoning ... or at least the story ... behind this was that the Dark Eldar gave up their psychic abilities in return for the vampirism that allows them to live forever and thus avoid being devoured by Slaanesh without resorting to soul stones. But I could be mistaken, they never really made the point clear in the Codex.

actually I run my scourges with 4 cannons and I love them enough to dish out the ridiculous points and waste a slot which could have a ravager instead. I would love them as fast attack because I never liked the fact that there were no "warrior" fast attack just wych fast attack. Also scourges with assault weapons would be awesome

Splinter Cannon are a pretty good anti-infantry choice, but that's really not what Heavy Support is meant for.

Yes, Scourges with blasters and/or shredders would be awesome. But then, deep-striking a squad of Scourges with dark lances and then just leaving them wherever they are (unless you need to avoid an assault) makes them a pretty awesome anti-tank unit.

And yeah, it would be great to have a Fast Attack unit ... ANY Fast Attack unit ... that wasn't wyches, especially if (as I do) you'd like to build an Haemonculus army.

its sadly disappointing though it does draw a lot of fire. There was an awesome month or so before the FAQ came out which made you have to roll 6s to hit it in 4th edition but after that it went back to being a subpar option because the ravager is so awesome.

Here I have to disagree with you. I LOATHE Ravagers ... I won't have one in my army unless I've got 2000+ points and can take Asdrubael Vect as an HQ choice. Heavy Support that's an 11 AV, open-topped vehicle that can't even use indirect fire? Thanks, no.

As to the Talos, it would be NICE if it had T8 like a Wraithlord, but I can live without it. I usually take at least one Scourge squad and at least one Talos as Heavy Support in my Deldar armies. The "hits what's nearest" capacity of the Talos' sting is extremely useful, if you know how to maneuver the thing, and its STR on a charge can be pretty awesome against vehicles. All in all I find it one of the more useful Heavy Support choices for this army.

And even back when the Codex first came out it was a "Floater," not a Skimmer, so didn't receive the "hits only on a 6" rule.

for this all I can stress (and not enough) is more raiders. A DE army should never have walking troops (other reason that a talos sucks)

Now THIS is just nonsense. For the price of a non-upgraded Raider that can be taken out with a lucky BOLT PISTOL shot, you can take eight more warriors to put in a Warrior Squad, or five extra warriors, an extra blaster AND an extra splinter cannon or dark lance. The Warrior Squad is one of the most effective anti-armor and anti-MEQ squads in the game. And if you "shield" it behind a squad of Grotesques (4+ cover save), it becomes hard as nails. Well, maybe not hard as NAILS, but much, much harder. Certainly harder than a Raider, or a Raider Squad.

Frankly, the only time I ever take Raiders nowadays is if I want to take Wyches (rarely) and want to get them into Assault quickly (always, obviously, if I'm taking them).

[Cheesegear]

You didn't ask, but I provided anyway.
(This post will be important later on when I finally do Imperial Guard vehicle comparisons)

Armour Value (AV) and You - You think you're so tough...

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First, let's make something clear, the 'Armour Penetration' roll, is basically a 'To Wound' roll. In which you have to breach a certain number to do any damage. To that end, we compile the following;

To penetrate;
Toughness 7 = Armour Value 10 (Autocannons need 4+ to Penetrate)
T8 = AV11 (Missiles needs 4+)
T9 = AV12 (Lascnnon needs 4+)
T10 = AV13 (S10 needs 4+)
AV14 is off the Toughness scale (= T'11'). You would think that makes AV14 awesome, right? Wrong (but, more on that later).

However, AV is worse than Toughness because of the simple fact of Glancing Hits. Glancing Hits, are basically a -1 Modifier for whatever you would normally need To Wound. Which means that your vehicle effectively 'loses' a point of Toughness (Bringing AV14 down to T10 for the purposes of Glancing Hits).

So, an Autocannon (S7), firing at something Toughness 7, and rolling a 3 To Wound, would fail. Not so vs. AV10. Basically, it means that things not normally able to 'wound' high Toughness creatures, can 'wound' vehicles of comparitive Toughness.

Directional Facing - Don't look at me when I'm shooting at you...

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Depending on which way your vehicle faces, will determine how much damage they take. Imagine if your Space Marines only had Toughness 2 or 3 if they got shot at from behind? ...Yeah. Ri-G*d damn-diculous.

Open your rulebook to Page 60. Look at the diagram. You'll notice that the angles to hit Side Armour are much larger than the front or rear. You'll also notice that Side Armour starts at the very front edge, not 1/3 down the tank. If you have 'closest LoS' to the side of the tank (no matter how far 'forwards' that side is), you hit the Side Armour.

Given that Rear Armour is often hard to maneuver to (even for Fast units, but, some units can do it better than others), most hits your tank takes, will probably be against the Side Armour (if they're not, feel lucky), for this reason, Side Armour is often considered the most important 'face'.

Front Armour is only really good for deployment. Once your opponent begins moving his units and getting angles on your vehicle, Front Armour ceases to matter. Just about everything has Rear Armour 10. It's rarely factored in. The only time Rear Armour 'counts' is when it's better than AV10.
Which isn't often. Land Raiders, Monoliths, the 'heavier' Leman Russes and Soul Grinders (Walker) are the only things that don't have RA10.

Now, turn back to Page 59. Notice that vehicles can only shoot in certain directions (and that Imperial Guard Sponsons get gypped {and Infantry have 360 line of Sight, always}). Also, given that Land Raiders have a Hull-mounted weapon, and Sponson weapons (that can't shoot backwards), a Land Raider has a massive weak point; It's rear. You can shoot it, but it can't shoot you.

Now, given that you - quite often - need to turn your vehicle to shoot at a specified target, if only so you can give all your Sponsons LoS. This leaves your Side Armour exposed to one or more units, or - Emperor forbid - your Rear Armour.

Some transport vehicles (most notably the IG Chimera), have one specified exit points. Meaning to get your unit 'closer' to the enemy (and stop the vehicle from blocking your own units' LoS when they get out), you're sometimes required to '180 spin' the vehicle around. Guess what this does? Yep. Puts your RA in full view of just about all enemies. Enjoy.

The Damage Table - It is not your friend.

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First, vehicles don't get an Armour Save. Once the enemy has 'wounded' you, you go right on to taking wounds. A vehicle's 'Armour Save' is it's 'Toughness', it's AV. Since Heavy Bolters, Autocannons or Assault Cannons (AP4) can kill light tanks pretty easily, isn't it weird it has a tough time killing even regular Space Marines?

Vehicle; Hit, Penetrate, Dead.
Infantry; Hit, Wound, Save, Dead.
Do you see the extra step it takes to kill Infantry? I do.

Second; Let's get something clear; Glancing Hits are not bad. Sure, they're not the best things in the world. But, they're not terrible either.

Unless the vehicle you're shooting at is a Transport Vehicle; 'Crew Shaken', is perfectly alright. Especially annoying (for you) if the vehicle that's shaken is an Ordnance tank.

If you've got a Glancing Hit, then, 'Crew Stunned' is probably the best result you want. It's essentially 'the vehicle is Pinned'. And Pinning is awesome. Unfortunately, there are certain upgrades (i.e; Extra Armour) that make a vehicle turn Crew Stunned to Crew Shaken, or, even ignore it altogether. Fortunately, those upgrades are rare and pretty expensive.

Weapon Destroyed is probably the worst result of the whole lot. Most vehicles have more than one weapon, and if the vehicle is a Transport, the unit inside is completely unaffected.
Except Piranhas and non-upgraded Land Speeders. Weapon Destroyed will turn them into Bricks. Only capable of blocking LoS. Which may or may not get annoying pretty quickly. For both sides of the table.
Sentinels, despite only having one weapon, are Walkers. And will be discussed later in a proper Imperial Guard post.

Immobilised is not that good. The vehicle can still shoot at 100% normalcy. If it's in a good spot, with decent directional facing. Some players wont even notice. Unless there's a fast-closing Assault unit ready to tear it a new one.

Destroyed. If Transport; The unit inside takes a Pinning test. Awesome.
Explodes. If Transport; The unit inside takes hits. Then takes a Pinning test. Even better.

Still, if you wound Infantry, they're still 100% effective.
You wound a vehicle? It can at least not shoot in it's next turn. How great are vehicles?

Vehicle Weaknesses - Chinks in the armour

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So, Poison and Rending attacks work wonders vs. Infantry. However, Poison is only available to very few armies in reliable numbers. And, Rending works just as well on vehicles. And, once again, vehicles don't get armour saves or invulnerable saves.
And 'Pinning' a vehicle is exactly the same as Crew Stunned...Luckily, some vehicles can move Stunned to Shaken, or ignore it altogether. But, then again, some Infantry are Fearless.

Autocannons break light vehicles. But, don't do a whole lot vs. Heavy Infantry. The same goes for Krak missiles. Both of these are fairly common sights on the battlefield.

All hits made in Assault against vehicles (not Walkers) are resolved against the Rear Armour. How amazing is that? Not only that, but, a lot of the time, things Assaulting will automatically hit, or easily hit. Fast vehicles have an exception.

The only way to stop this, is by moving your vehicle. Usually at the cost of firing weapons. Which is what you usually take vehicles for. Fast vehicles have an exception, where moving at Cruising Speed is rarely an issue when it comes to weapons (exception; Vendettas).

For this reason; Fast vehicles are really good.

Vehicles are rather large models (with one or two exceptions), trying to get them cover saves/obscured target can be done, but, it's a lot harder than getting Infantry into the same cover. Also, due to True Line of Sight rules, Skimmers on flying bases are really easy to see. Especially Imperial Guard Gunships.

Melta weapons are about as common as dirt.
If the army doesn't have Melta weapons, then they've got Lance weapons. Which are almost as bad.
Whereas Melta and Lance weapons do precisely nothing vs. Infantry.

AP1. Sure, it works against Infantry models (some might even have Invulnerable saves though). But, AP1 works even better vs. Vehicles. Most AP1 weapons are also either Ordnance or Melta weapons.

Grenades. All Space Marines (i.e; 70+% of your opponents) now come with Krak Grenades as standard. And, all Assaults are resolved against Rear Armour. And, most vehicles will be getting hit on a 4+ or automatically. Fun times.
Melta Bombs are also common.
Haywire/EMP Grenades. That is all.

Sure, Walkers are only affected by Grenades on a 6. Unless they've been Stunned or Immobilised (which is easy to do, and they also lose an attack).

The Best Vehicles - Not all vehicles have The Badness

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In no particular order;
Chaos Marine Vindicators (for Daemonic Possession)
Dark Eldar Ravagers
Eldar Wave Serpents
Necron Monolith (the best vehicle in the entire game)
Space Marine Land Raider Crusaders
Space Marine Land Raider Redeemers
Tau Hammerheads

Imperial Guard;
Leman Russ Battle Tanks
Leman Russ Demolishers
Bane Wolves
Medusas
Vendettas

Dark Eldar Raiders (due to the fact that they Force Multiply)

Honourable Mentions go out to;
Chaos Marine Defiler
Chaos Daemon Soul Grinder (potentially the second-best 'vehicle' in the entire game, were it not for the fact that it comes out of the Chaos Daemon Codex)
Space Marine Ironclad Dreadnoughts
Black Templar Dreadnoughts
Since these are Walkers, rather than Vehicles. And slightly easier to kill.

...Some of you might be having fits over why I didn't include a Leman Russ Executioner. Fine...Get out your regular Leman Russ Battle Tank, put Plasma Sponsons (I'd actually prefer Heavy Bolters, though) on it, and see which one you like better.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Suddenly having a Hive Tyrant in one's flank, pulling off an immediate assault, is not a pretty sight, I tell you.

There's always the option of putting all your units 18" away from the board edge so they can't do that.

My attempt at a Black Templars army, not enough units for my liking

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HQ
Marshall - Artificer Armour, Power Weapon, Storm Shield, Holy Orb of Antioch, Terminator Honours, frag grenades
Command Squad - Apothecary, Furious Charge, Company Champion, Frag Grenades, Sergeant with Storm Shield, chapter banner
Reclusiarch - frag grenades
rhino - smoke launchers
555 points?!

Reclusiarch - jump pack, terminator honours, artificer armour, frag grenades
151

Emperor's Champion - destroy the witch abhor the witch
110

Troops
Crusader squad - 8 initiates, 6 neophytes, flamer, power fist
land raider crusader
473

Crusader squad - 7 initiates, 7 neophytes, power sword, melta gun
land raider crusader
467

Fast Attack
10 Assault initiates - power fist, 3 storm shields
244 points

total: 2000 exactly thanks to 1 set of smoke launchers

49 marines, 3 transports

At 2500
5 terminators with 2 assault cannons and chainfist
245

dreadnought with missile launcher, lascannon and tank hunters
145

2 multi-melta attack bikes
130
- 2 neophytes

I'm sure this would be cheaper and better with the blood angels book.

[Oslecamo]

I wish. If only the game was more like Dawn of War...Or 2nd Ed.

Come to the Firestorm over Kronus side...We can shoot dudes charging at us, and try to retreat from melee, and fill up organizational forces...

[Lycan 01]

Well, using a spare Cadian head as practice, I managed to learn how to green stuff Vostroyan fur caps. Its a bit time consuming, but actually quite easy and fun. When I find some time this evening, I'm going to sacrifice a Cadian soldier for the glory of the Imperium, and see if I can convert him into a Vostroyan. Should be fun!


Also, why is it that Infantry and Veteran squads can't have boltguns on their Sergeants, but the Codex shows pictures of Sarges equiped with Bolters? Also, the Standard Bearer is shown with a power sword, but the Codex never gives that option.

Did that info just get left out, or did they just include illegal model pics for the sake of coolness?

[Ninja Chocobo]

Wrecked. If Transport; The unit inside takes a Pinning test. Awesome.
Destroyed. If Transport; The unit inside takes hits. Then takes a Pinning test. Even better.

Both of them are Destroyed results. One of them is Explodes. Terminology is important! It really irritates me when I hear someone talking about how they "blew up" a vehicle and it was a Wrecked result.

Melta weapons are about as common as dirt.
If the army doesn't have Melta weapons, then they've got Lance weapons. Which are almost as bad.

Orks?

Since these are Walkers, rather than Vehicles. And slightly easier to kill.

I would have thought harder, since most of them have shorter sides and they're harder to assault.

[Cheesegear]

Terminology is important!

No. No it isn't. Or, at least not as important as you believe it to be. If you know what you're talking about, and your audience can understand what you're talking about, then it makes no difference what you say as long as you're almost close.

For example; I call Tyranid Primes 'Alpha Warriors'. To me, it makes more sense. And pretty much everyone knows what I'm talking about (if it does take some context).

Second, Terminology isn't always easy to get right
a) Non-English-speaking people say a lot of things that 'aren't quite right' because they speaks a different language to the rest of us and have 'translated Codecies'. But, in concordance with the above, they're usually 'pretty close' and the rest of us know what they're talking about. Or

b) Away from Books. Again, if you have half an idea what you're talking about, it usually doesn't make a difference.

I would have thought harder, since most of them have shorter sides and they're harder to assault.

Walkers are (usually) easier to Assault due to the fact that most people move their Walkers forwards while you're also moving forwards. Walkers are also easy to tie up if you've got the right unit for the job. And, if you stun/immobilise Walkers (it's easy), they don't have a fun time in Assault.

The only thing Walkers should really think about Assaulting is Guardsmen or certain units of Eldar (not Dark Eldar. Like Orks, every Dark Eldar Succubus carries an Agoniser, and sometimes Haywire Grenades to boot. Dark Eldar don't play fair. Read the fluff. ).

[Ninja Chocobo]

No. No it isn't. Or, at least not as important as you believe it to be. If you know what you're talking about, and your audience can understand what you're talking about, then it makes no difference what you say as long as you're almost close.

It makes a difference if the substitute term you're using means something different elsewhere. To use your example, if you called a Tyranid Prime a Warrior, there would be confusion.

Walkers are also easy to tie up if you've got the right unit for the job. And, if you stun/immobilise Walkers (it's easy), they don't have a fun time in Assault.

The only thing Walkers should really think about Assaulting is Guardsmen or certain units of Eldar.

Considering they always present front armour in assault, and I see plenty of squads that don't have anything S6 or higher...
And -1A isn't that big of a deal. If it stacked, it would be.

[Lycan 01]

Soooo... Does anybody know why some models shown in the Imp Guard Codex have equipment not available to them? Like Sergeants with bolters, and Standard Bearers with Power Swords? Or is it just a bit mystery?

[crazedloon]

I think the reasoning ... or at least the story ... behind this was that the Dark Eldar gave up their psychic abilities in return for the vampirism that allows them to live forever and thus avoid being devoured by Slaanesh without resorting to soul stones. But I could be mistaken, they never really made the point clear in the Codex.

no that is part of the entire eldar race being strongly psychic, those who actually possess true powers however are tortured for fun

Yes, Scourges with blasters and/or shredders would be awesome. But then, deep-striking a squad of Scourges with dark lances and then just leaving them wherever they are (unless you need to avoid an assault) makes them a pretty awesome anti-tank unit.

the problem and thus waste of this problem is that turn 1 deep striking turn 2 and on they only have a chance to come in. The turn they come in they can not shoot. And finally the turn they can shoot your opponent has most likely moved their tanks out of the comparatively short ranged (compared to most tanks) dark lance. So you have spent 180 points for a unit which has spent at minimum 2 turns (1/3 the game) doing nothing or even more.

Here I have to disagree with you. I LOATHE Ravagers ... I won't have one in my army unless I've got 2000+ points and can take Asdrubael Vect as an HQ choice. Heavy Support that's an 11 AV, open-topped vehicle that can't even use indirect fire? Thanks, no.

you could not be more wrong
look at the unit of scourges which cost you 180 points (4 lances 3 will make the unit 155)
Now lets look at an equivalent ravager (with night shield, and jets) 135 (3 lances)

the difference is the turn the ravager comes in it can shoot 1 of its lance and ignores S4 can move the same distance as the scourges or move 24 and gain a cover save. Also weapons lose 6" of range which means rapid fire does not work until 6 inches and everything else obviously is shorter range.

now in my opinion you should shell out an additional 10 points (145 still cheaper than the scourges) to upgrade with 2 disintigrators. Now it can deep strike and shoot a lance as well as 6 anti MEQ shots (so 7 total)

The above hopefully illustrates how a ravager is 100% better than scourges in every way

And even back when the Codex first came out it was a "Floater," not a Skimmer, so didn't receive the "hits only on a 6" rule.

the errata for that ruling did not come out for a few months after 4th edition came out.

Now THIS is just nonsense. For the price of a non-upgraded Raider that can be taken out with a lucky BOLT PISTOL shot, you can take eight more warriors to put in a Warrior Squad, or five extra warriors, an extra blaster AND an extra splinter cannon or dark lance. The Warrior Squad is one of the most effective anti-armor and anti-MEQ squads in the game. And if you "shield" it behind a squad of Grotesques (4+ cover save), it becomes hard as nails. Well, maybe not hard as NAILS, but much, much harder. Certainly harder than a Raider, or a Raider Squad..

so you are comparing 2 units to 1 cheap vehicle?
those 8 warriors can each be killed with a bolter as well on non lucky shots without armor saves (also every glance does not mean death)
those 8 warriors can not have a shadow field making troops need to be within 6" to rapid fire at them
those warriors do not move 12 inches and deploy other warriors or move 24 and gain a 4+ cover save (they require another unit to do that)
those warriors can not move and shoot a heavy weapon
if you are shielding your unit with your own unit anything the rear unit shoots gains the same covers save (in this case getting rid of the whole purpose of the dark lances)
a sybarite with agoniser and drugs is wasted in a unit which get shot before it can make it to the enemy while a raider can deposit said unit within assault range turn 1

Frankly, the only time I ever take Raiders nowadays is if I want to take Wyches (rarely) and want to get them into Assault quickly (always, obviously, if I'm taking them).

the game is all about personal gaming style but, Dark Eldar are a close combat army. Their basic weapons are barely better than a las gun (the only difference is the AP 5) but they do not have the benefit of orders.

However what they do have is the only force with fast open topped skimmers which allows them to use terrain to hide their cardboard boxes (I mean raiders) before popping over a terrain piece dropping a units
they have the fastest base trooper
they have the most effective special items for "Sargent"
They have the best in game anti tank weapons. I am talking about haywire grenades not dark lances. A turn 1 reliable monolith kill is a fantastic weapon

however all these advantages only exist if you fight in CC

all other armies
out-shoot you, ether with volume or AP (remeber you ony need ap 5 to kill the entire army minus incubi and talos without armor saves)
have harder tanks (your best armor as you said is 11)
have better special abilities (really there is nothing beyond awesome CC stuff in dark eldar everything else is a rather simple stat boost) *

if you do not move close quickly and engage in CC you will be hard pressed to win.

*not entirely true the pinning blast templates are fun so are flame templates with ap d6

[Cheesegear]

Also, why is it that Infantry and Veteran squads can't have boltguns on their Sergeants, but the Codex shows pictures of Sarges equiped with Bolters?

Because they're old models. When such things were allowed

Also, the Standard Bearer is shown with a power sword, but the Codex never gives that option.

IIRC, the Command Squad sprue is pretty crap and barely gives you enough arms. You basically have to take what you can get.

or did they just include illegal model pics for the sake of coolness?

Yes.