Warhammer 40K Tactics V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others.

[Winterwind]

At least Soul Grinders appear decently awesome, judging from their capabilities...

Some of the Greater Daemons, Keepers of Secrets in particular, look quite effective, too.

And anything riding a Khornate Juggernaut should tear into the enemies like a hot knife through butter.

[largertyler]

ok... So i got bored and wanted to make a scary 500pts, wither its good or not was kinda irrelevant, this this is scary, here it goes

CCS 50
Creed (OH YEAH!) 90
4 grenade launchers 20
camo or carapace Armour 20 (based on field I'm on)
total 180

platoon 1
PCS 30
4 grenade launchers 20
squad 50 +5 grenade launcher
squad 50 +5 grenade launcher

platoon 2
PCS 30
4 grenade launchers 20
squad 50 +5 grenade launcher
squad 50 +5 grenade launcher

16 special weapons creed and only 500 pts. There will be blood.

comments appreciated

[MountainKing]

Not supposed to list your point costs; otherwise, I'm no good (read: total lacking in knowledge about) with Guard. However, I'm not quite seeing how that army is even remotely frightening; the first Tau army I played with could shoot it to pieces.

[Cheesegear]

At least Soul Grinders appear decently awesome, judging from their capabilities...

Soul Grinders are just about the only thing guaranteed to be effective. For one turn. Then they get shot at.

Some of the Greater Daemons, Keepers of Secrets in particular, look quite effective, too.

IMO, the Keeper of Secrets is the best one. There is no special character KoS because it's not really possible to make a KoS better than it already is.

And anything riding a Khornate Juggernaut should tear into the enemies like a hot knife through butter.

Yep. Therein lies the problem. All the good units you've described are Heavy Support, HQ and Elite. Chaos Daemon Troops and Fast Attack are kind of really bad.

Largertyler:
What do you need Creed for?
No Heavy Weapons? Granted, it is 500 points. But, you still need S7 or 8 weapons to deal with Dreadnoughts. Think about trading some of those Grenade Launchers for Missile Launchers.

...That's about it. It's only 500 points. There's not much to say. Given that you've done it right, your Imperial Guard list should pretty much win every game. Except against shooty Space Marines and Tau, who will cut through you like butter.

[Winterwind]

I'll leave commenting on the Imperial Guard list to people more knowledgeable about the Imperial Guard than me.

Soul Grinders are just about the only thing guaranteed to be effective. For one turn. Then they get shot at.

Unless they've deepstruck into melter range, there is at least a small chance they might survive though, right?

IMO, the Keeper of Secrets is the best one. There is no special character KoS because it's not really possible to make a KoS better than it already is.

Indeed.
Though to make up for it the Masque is pretty much useless (or so it would seem to me), being far too vulnerable.

Yep. Therein lies the problem. All the good units you've described are Heavy Support, HQ and Elite. Chaos Daemon Troops and Fast Attack are kind of really bad.

I'd argue Daemonettes aren't that bad. The others... yeah. Bloodletters may do okay, too, situationally, but are horribly expensive, and it only goes down from there.

[Lycan 01]

Another conversion question - would it be possible to green stuff a surgical mask and smock onto a Nob Biker and count him as a Mad Dok? It seems easier than buying a (costly) Mad Dok, bisecting him, and grafting his torso onto a bike... And just to make sure its obvious, I'd make a "Red Kross" banner and stick it on the bike, too. If the Battleforce only comes with 3 Bikers, I want them to be as resiliant and dead stompy as possible. 4+ armor save, 4+ cover save, and 5+ invul save... That ought to keep those suckers alive for more than one round.


Oh, did we ever find out what happens if you give Biker Nobs 'ard armor?

[largertyler]

my problem with missile launchers is they are to stationary. Grenade launchers have same stats and are assault weapons, and if i abuse cover, or use one squad to give another squad a cover save I'm dandy. Creeds staggering 4 orders works really well as bring it down will hopefully handle dreads, incoming will add plus 2 to any cover save making sitting 20 bodies on an objective a good idea, and if they do charge me with anything short of a walker, for the honor of Cadia give me furious charge.

And it was 12:30 in the morning after hours of studying for bio I need a distraction so through this together. I was so exited this morning with how much I crammed into 500 pts (I'm a marine player normally, i just got 1500 of gaurd) I wanted to share. Sadly the only people i tend to vs are sisters, and tao. Oh and an eldar guy, honestly i hate eldar most. Mostly due to wave serpents, GAAAR

edit: and being cut through like butter isn't a bad thing. I said there will be blood i never said who's will flow. I think of my list as more of a silly one timer thing. Just wanted comments about is as my friends were asleep at 1 in the morning

[MountainKing]

Well, if your main opponents are Sisters and Tau... I'd definitely say that you need something long range. Especially against Tau; anti-vehicle capabilities will definitely be a must, even if it's only 500 pts. I learned that lesson the hard way against a 500 pt Space Wolf list; it had exactly ONE Rhino, and it royally booched my day.

[Arcanoi]

my problem with missile launchers is they are to stationary. Grenade launchers have same stats and are assault weapons, and if i abuse cover, or use one squad to give another squad a cover save I'm dandy. Creeds staggering 4 orders works really well as bring it down will hopefully handle dreads, incoming will add plus 2 to any cover save making sitting 20 bodies on an objective a good idea, and if they do charge me with anything short of a walker, for the honor of Cadia give me furious charge.

And it was 12:30 in the morning after hours of studying for bio I need a distraction so through this together. I was so exited this morning with how much I crammed into 500 pts (I'm a marine player normally, i just got 1500 of gaurd) I wanted to share. Sadly the only people i tend to vs are sisters, and tao. Oh and an eldar guy, honestly i hate eldar most. Mostly due to wave serpents, GAAAR

edit: and being cut through like butter isn't a bad thing. I said there will be blood i never said who's will flow. I think of my list as more of a silly one timer thing. Just wanted comments about is as my friends were asleep at 1 in the morning

First of all, slow down buddeh.

As for grenade launchers... where did you get the idea that they have the same stats as Missile Launchers...? IIRC, they're S6 AP4 or S3 AP-... which makes them a great deal worse than Rocket Launcher's S8 AP3 or S4 AP6. IIRC, they have 24" range to the Missile Launcher's 48". Your army shouldn't really be... moving, honestly. You hide behind cover and use the fact that you have three times as many bodies (At the least) than any of your opponents, and just whittle them down. The heavier the weapons you have, the better this will go, as your opponent can't afford to lose models like you can.

You should never PLAN to charge with Guardsmen. The only time I can think of in which charging is a good idea is if there's an enemy within 12" of your unit with Furious Charge that hasn't charged you yet. Then you charge and take away his bonus, but only after Rapid-Firing. Never plan to charge with Guardsmen, because you will LOSE if you do it. You're sending, even with Furious Charge, WS3 S4 T3 I4 Sv5+ units into CC. This is a bad idea, and unless the thing you're charging is a squad of Fire Warriors, you will lose every single time.

[crazedloon]

Daemons get a bad rap due to their randomness (which in all truth is giant disadvantage) however they can be very good if put together correctly.

I will also put my vote out there for you to play them cheesegear because they get such a bad rap it would be nice to see if we as a board (with you at the head of the army) could make them viable with some strategy and mathhammer (and a lot of luck)

as far as the models themselves :
HQ

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the fateweaver is a must as he can throw around some awesome magic and daemons in his bubble become ridiculously hard to kill.

the masque is actually very very good because she allows you to reposition 3 units which allow you to move them into or out of assault range (or firing range) as well as closer for better template placement. She also only counts as 1/2 of an HQ choice

Skulltaker is another awesome model, capable of hunting characters or multiple wound models he can devastate nob even when they think they can hide on bikes again also only 1/2 an HQ choice

the three above would be my suggestion of an HQ layout

Elite

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Flamers, in my opinion the best choice for your elites. They do not care about your AV, and can kill any unit type (even tanks). They are fast with the best invulnerable of any of the elite choices which makes them able to survive (due to being able to take advantage of terrain for LoS and when shot at more likely to make the save). Also they synergies well with the masque who can clump units to allow you to blanket with templates

fiends are decent if you want to keep units occupied but I wouldn't bother as your elites need to be the heavy hitters

beasts are horrid stay away from these at all cost.

Bloodcrushers are good because they have a "high" armor value with high toughness, power weapons and they can allow accurate DSing

Troops

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Pink horrors are nice because they give you ranged attacks. The changeling is a nice addition particularly used against short ranged models such as meltaguns to blow up opponents own vehicles. These guys also have the best save

Daemonettes are the fastest of the option so can hold up enemy units easier (due to the ability to intercept)

bloodletters, power weapons on a troop choice? seems rather awesome

plague bearers are awesome for take and hold as they can be harder than the warp itself to move out of a defensive postion.

The troop choices are a little less obvious however if you know the sort of missions or opponents you will be playing it helps a lot

Fast attack

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Seekers have a rediculous number of attack with rending and as such can take down heavily armored opponents. They also are cav so they can move far easier from cover to cover. Only downside is the low S/T

Hounds are slow but they have more attacks than furys

furys have the speed but lack the number of attacks.

Screamers are the fastest, have the best save and make awesome tank hunters (leaving the rest of your big hitters to worry about troops)

Heavy support

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soulgrinders are awesome and unless your opponent is willing to drop a lot of firepower onto him he will stick around and devastate. IMHO only the template is worth the upgrade due to the low BS and the template can take advantage of the masque

Princes can be great tank hunters or great middle men to hold units for the rest of your army to appear and deal with them, however when compared to the other Heavy option they are lacking

suggested list

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HQ: 573
Fateweaver
Masque
skulltaker with Juggernaut

Elite: 715
Flamer 7x
Flamer 7x
bloodcrushers 5x with icon

Troops: 715
Plaguebearers 10x
icon
Plaguebearers 10x
icon
bloodletters 10x
icon
horrors 10x
icon
changeling

Fast attack: 320
screamers 10x
screamers 10x

Heavy: 160
soulgrinder
phlegm

and the army should be split into

screamer
soulgrinder
plaguebearer
plaguebearer
masque
letters


flamer
flamer
horrors
fateweaver
bloodcrushers
skulltaker
screamer

The one half has heavy hitters who can sit back and hold a position until the other half DS while the other half has fast forces which can clear and scatter a good deal of the enemy before the other half DS with units who can finish the job all while being resilient due to good saves. Each half also have the screamers to deal with tanks which will cause problems.

Admittedly this is all just my opinion so I don't know 100% how well it would work

just my .02 though at this point it may be a little more that that

[Selrahc]

From my own play experience with Daemons I'd disagree somewhat about the relative usefulness of the troops and greater daemons, I don't think Slaaneesh is as all conquering or soul grinders so indispensable. We've had the argument before though so I'm not sure much purpose is served in rehashing.

Suffice to say though, Daemons are a difficult army to play and one you should only play either for novelty or masochism. Or because you are a fan of daemons. Chance can all too readily kick you in the teeth to an even greater extent than any other army.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Your army shouldn't really be... moving, honestly. You hide behind cover and use the fact that you have three times as many bodies (At the least) than any of your opponents, and just whittle them down.

I think you are underestimating the power of moving units. Just because you usually shouldn't move, doesn't mean that when the opportunity arises, you shouldn't.

Moving into rapid fire/flamer range is the obvious example. Also using lesser units to block more important units (as you said, use the bodies to your advantage).

Grenade launchers are okay. But I do perfer flamers.

edit: For reference, in the few games I've played my guard (haven't lost yet at least), I've had one stationary platoon with heavy weapons, and one with assault guns (to move around and take objectives/keep the enemy busy).

[Thatguyoverther]

As promised my AAR: (Under Construction)

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My Army

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HQ

Company Command Squad- 70
Sniper Riflesx4

Troops

Veteran Squad- 115
Missile Launcher
Demolitions

Veteran Squad- 120
Plasma Gunsx2
Lascannon

Fast Attack

Sentinel- 45
Missile launcher

Armored Sentinel- 75
Plasma Cannon

Armored Sentinel- 75
Plasma Cannon

Space Marine Army (Not sure on point costs and equipment.)

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HQ

Librarian-
Bike

Troops

Scouts-
Sniper rifles
Missile Launcher

Scouts-
Sniper rifles
Missile Launcher

Fast Attack

Land Speeder-
Meltagun

Land Speeder-
Meltagun

Land Speeder-
Meltagun

Before Turn 1

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The armies are both a little weird for a couple of reasons.

The table was small, only 3 feet by a little less then 4.

My opponent was fully expecting me to take a basilisk. He was planning on using the landspeeders to take it, and any sentinels I took out.

Since I knew that the table was tiny and that my opponent was expecting me to take a basilisk, so I didn't. Score one for double think. I tooled my army thinking that I'd have to deal with nasty anti-tank units. My worst fear was that he'd take deepstrike a dreadnought, so I took a little more anti-tank then was absolutely necessary. I also elected to take just the 2 vet squads, mostly because I was afraid of getting clobbered in an annihilation game.

After showing each other out army lists, we placed terrain and rolled for the game type. There were four fairly large pieces of terrain, a couple of forests, a ruined building and a wall. The forests ended up near the opposite corners, with the ruin and the wall being placed close to the other two corners. We rolled a capture ground mission and standard deployment.

We placed out objectives, he placed his a couple of inches from the woods closer to him so that a squad could cap it and still stay in cover. I, in a stroke, of tactical brilliance decided that I'd place my objective out in the open where I could shooterate anyone who tried to capture it. A second later I realized that I needed to leave a squad in the open to hold it.

He placed both of his scouts in the woods near his objective, one land speeder out of LoS behind the same forest and the librarian behind the wall and out of sight. He opted to keep the other two land speeders in reserve.

I placed my command squad near the forest closer to me, the demo vets in the ruin and the plasma vets near my objective. I placed the sentinel near the forest where he'd be able to move and instant death the librarian. One armored sent. I put behind the plasma squad and the other near the table edge by the ruins.

Turn 1

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My Movement
My movement phase was unexciting. Everyone pretty much hunkered down and prepared to fire. The exceptions where my command squad, who where trying to get into cover in the forest and the missile sent who was moving so he could get LoS on the librarian. I rolled badly for the command squads move through cover, only a single model actually made it into cover.

My Shooting
My krak missile at the librarian missed.

The two vet squads open up, but manage to do nothing against the scouts and their damnable cover saves.

The plasma cannon on one armored sent scatters harmlessly, and the other is ignored by cover saves. I managed to do absolutely nothing in my shooting phase.

My Assault
Nothing was in assault range.

His Movement
The scouts stay put. He moves the librarian up into assault range of the sentinel. He brings his landspeeder around and draws a bead on one of my armored sentinels.

His Shooting
His landspeeder misses, thankfully. Unfortunately both of the scouts squads take shots at both of my armored sentinels and hit. Fortunate he rolls badly of armor penetration and fails to score a even a glancing hit.

The Librarian opens up on my unarmored sentinel but fails to do anything.

I don't feel nearly so bad about my failure of a shooting phase since his fail too.

His Assault
He assaults my missile sent with his librarian. He uses Might of Ancients and then proceeds to score a penetrating hit on my sentinel. It kersplodes but he ignores the measly strength 3 hit.

Turn 2

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My Movement
I move my command squad further into cover, unfortunately I fail again at rolling and a single model doesn't make it into cover.

Deciding that I like to live dangerously I decide to move both of my vet squads forward. I figure that I stand a fair chance of winning an assault. It'll be WS3 S3 T3 against WS3 S4 T4, but if I get the assault it'll be 20 attacks versus 5, int he first round. If I can wipe both his scout squads, then I'll be able to cap his objective for a win.

My Shooting
One of my sentinels fires at the closer of the two scout squads and manages to hit. I manage kill a single scout. Not great but not bad. The other sentinel fires at the landspeeder but misses. It scatters tantalizingly close to his second scout squad but comes up short.

The plasma squad moved so they are no longer in rapid fire range.

The demo squad doesn't fire their guns because I'm planning on assaulting, but throws a demo charge at the landspeeder. I miss.

My Assault
The demo squad is the only one in assault range. I'm left with a conundrum. I can either assault the scout squad in cover or the landspeeder. I figure that since next turn the plasma squad'll be in rapid fire range I can hold off on the scouts and soften them up before assaulting next turn. I opt to charge the landspeeder.

The assault goes nicely. I manage to connect with two plasma grenades, and score two penetrating hits. Unfortunately my luck turns very sharply. The landspeeder explodes, and the dice gods laugh. I loose 6 guardsmen, decimating the demo squad.

His Movement
The scouts stay put. He moves his librarian closer to my command squad

His Shooting
His librarian opens an manages to kill one of the models in my vet squad. I choose to take out the model not in cover. Eat dangerous terrain test you bastard.

His snipers switch targets to my vet squads. The demos loose another man, pass their pinning test but fall back.

The other squad looses two men but passes their pinning test.


His Assault
His hq assaults my hq. He uses might of ancients again and another two guardsmen die.

Turn 3

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My Movement

Things look bad. I can't rally my demo squad and they fall back off the board. Now I'm down to one vet squad. It looks like the best I can hope for now is a draw. I bring my plasma squad back so that I can at least cap my objective.

I also move one of my armored sents into assault range so that he can tie up one of the scout squads.

My Shooting

Since I pulled my vets back, they are once again out of rapid fire range. Le sigh.

Both of the sentinels fire their plasma cannons but as ever they fail me.

My Assault
My armored sentinel attacks. Since it's got a front armor of 12 they can only damage it with a krak grenade and even then they can only score a glancing blow. My attacks fail to do anything, but luckily the mathhammer works, for once, and they don't manage to do anything either.

The other assault goes pretty well, I do nothing and he gets one wound. I take it on my Commander and I fail to make my invulnerable save so he's down a wound.

His Movment
He rolls for his reserves and deep strikes both of his remaining landspeeders. He tries to place them within 12 of my unengaged sentinel but the both scatter.

His Shooting
For some reason my remaining unengaged sentinel seems charmed, one melta shot fails to hit and the other fails to penetrate.

His Assault
His librarian inflicts another wound, feeling gutsy I take it on my commander and he makes is invulnerable save.

Defying the odds the scout squad manages to land two hits with their grenades, one of which scores a glancing hit. It scores a crew stunned, which is doesn't effect anything since my sentinel only had 1 attack to begin with. The sentinel's attack once again does nothing.

Turns 4 & 5

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In my turn my vet squad managed to take out one of the landspeeders and the armored sent took out the other.

After that point it was pretty much just clean up. I kept getting lucky with my invulnerable saves so both of the close combats remained stalemates.

I tried running my remaining walker close enough to contest the second objective but I came up short. The remaining vet squad made it to the objective and sat there without any targets in sight.

Since it ended with us both only holding our own objectives the game came out a draw.

[Kzickas]

how's this for an 650pts space marine army?

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hq:
space marine chaplain w/jump pack 115pts

troops:
10 scouts w/combat blades 140pts
drop pod 35pt
10 space marines, flamer, plasma cannon, seargent w/powerfist 200pts
razorback 40pts

fast attack:
assult squad w/melta bombs 105pts

[Arcanoi]

how's this for an 650pts space marine army?

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hq:
space marine chaplain w/jump pack 115pts

troops:
10 scouts w/combat blades 140pts
drop pod 35pt
10 space marines, flamer, plasma cannon, seargent w/powerfist 200pts
razorback 40pts

fast attack:
assult squad w/melta bombs 105pts

Chaplain: A fine HQ for 650 points. No problem.

Scouts: No. Just no. Either drop them with bolters or don't drop them at all. In 650 points, you're basically throwing away 175 points by putting them into a drop pod with combat blades.

Tactical Squad: First of all, Tacts can't take plasma cannons, I'll assume you mean a plasma gun. I believe this squad would do better with a Rocket Launcher/Flamer instead of a Plasma/Flamer. Then you can split them into combat squads and camp one squad with the Missile Launcher while throw the other into the Razorback with the Sergeant and Flamer. At 650 Points, you should seriously consider giving your Razorback some weapons. They can kick ass.

Assault Squad: I don't recall how many points each assault Marine is, but this squad seems small. At 650 Points, an 7-10-man Assault Squad with a Chaplain can win you the game quite easily by killing just about anything.

[Closet_Skeleton]

...That's about it. It's only 500 points. There's not much to say. Given that you've done it right, your Imperial Guard list should pretty much win every game. Except against shooty Space Marines and Tau, who will cut through you like butter.

Space Marines can't do anything at 500 points. They only get about 2 squads.

[Winterwind]

Tactical Squad: First of all, Tacts can't take plasma cannons, I'll assume you mean a plasma gun. I believe this squad would do better with a Rocket Launcher/Flamer instead of a Plasma/Flamer. Then you can split them into combat squads and camp one squad with the Missile Launcher while throw the other into the Razorback with the Sergeant and Flamer. At 650 Points, you should seriously consider giving your Razorback some weapons. They can kick ass.

Actually, yes, Tactical Marines can take Plasma Cannons (page 134 in the codex). Contrariwise, what you assumed instead would have been illegal; they cannot take a Plasma Gun and a Flamer at once.

[Arcanoi]

Actually, yes, Tactical Marines can take Plasma Cannons (page 134 in the codex). Contrariwise, what you assumed instead would have been illegal; they cannot take a Plasma Gun and a Flamer at once.

Huh. My bad >_> I was under the impression that only devastators had access to Plasma Cannons. Anyway, my ultimate suggestion still stands.

[crazedloon]

how's this for an 650pts space marine army?

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hq:
space marine chaplain w/jump pack 115pts

troops:
10 scouts w/combat blades 140pts
drop pod 35pt
10 space marines, flamer, plasma cannon, seargent w/powerfist 200pts
razorback 40pts

fast attack:
assult squad w/melta bombs 105pts

The scouts should have sniper rifles because they are more versatile, capable of taking down anything from normal troops (and pinning them) to MC which you may not see at this point value but as your army gets larger become more common.

The drop pod is a waist for a scout squad with sniper rifles thus drop it to equip the razorback with a better weapon I would suggest lascannon to take care of armor (should only be up against other transports but better safe than sorry)

should leave you able to pin and stop larger units from mobing your small assault squad (with sniper shots) take out tanks (with razorback, plasma and melta bomb) take out heavily armed opponents (Chaplin, plasma cannon) and be highly maneuverable (razorback, assault marines) And should be able to expand up to 100 with ease (expand assault squad, add a heavy support choice)

[hamishspence]

Could have been a change over time- didn't earlier versions of the codex (3rd ed?) forbid plasma cannons and multi-meltas, on tactical squads?

[Shas aia Toriia]

Could have been a change over time- didn't earlier versions of the codex (3rd ed?) forbid plasma cannons and multi-meltas, on tactical squads?

Yeah. Having just checked my 3rd ed. SM codex - they were only allowed Heavy Bolters, Missile Launchers, or Lascannons.

[Lycan 01]

I was able to unbox the model WW2 tank - which turned out to be a German Panther - and discovered that its a 1/35 size model, and it actually looks relatively good size-wise. The weapons are kinda... wimpy, though. The turret gun is kinda scrawny, but its almost the length of the tank itself. I suppose that evens out... But the machine guns look they'd fit in a Big Shoota, rather than count as one. I don't have much Dakka to spare for bits, either. I suppose I could spend the 10 points for the two Big Shootas, and instead equip it with a Rokkit Launcha. I can just have the Ork popping out of the top hatch be waving it around, since my only spare Rokkit Launcha has hands on it...

Something caught my eye earlier, though. Rokkit Launchas aren't Blast weapons, according to the codex. But I've heard and read elsewhere, unless I'm horribly mistaken, that they are Blast weapons. I'd check the regular rulebook, but my SM buddy has it. Plus, Codex > rulebook. Or did I miss something?



I'm still wondering if you can convert a Biker Nob into a Mad Dok, as well as what 'Eavy Armor does to a Nob Biker.

[crazedloon]

stuff

I would suggest getting some straws from a fast food joint (or maybe even a large straw from 7-11 or the like) to beef up the gun on the turret. As for the machine guns just cut up a shoota (take of the barrel) use the cut barrel as an extension for another shoot and use that as a big shoota (maybe even set two together for a double barreled look)

As for the doc that should be perfectly fine (this game is all about conversions and modeling the way you like)

the rokkits are not blast unfortunately (would make them so much better due to the bad BS of orcs) and the armor value would not change if you had a bike and armor

[Arcanoi]

I'm still wondering what 'Eavy Armor does to a Nob Biker.

Well.. it gives you a save against things that don't allow Cover Saves... and a 4+ save in CC against things without PWs.

[MountainKing]

I'm still wondering if you can convert a Biker Nob into a Mad Dok, as well as what 'Eavy Armor does to a Nob Biker.

If you're creative enough, I'm sure just about anything is possible, and at a glance, it appears that 'Eavy Armor on a Nob Biker is just like 'Eavy Armor on anything else; a 4+ armor save.

EDIT: Ninja'd. HOWEVER, uh, guy with the guard army... against the Marines... Yeah, question for you. If it's take and hold, why was he trucking his librarian toward your command squad? Did he have anyone with him? I do believe Independent Characters are unable to capture objectives by themselves...

[crazedloon]

Well.. it gives you a save against things that don't allow Cover Saves... and a 4+ save in CC against things without PWs.

Bike already do that. If you have both you just have 2 4+ armor values stacking for no reason

[MountainKing]

Bike already do that. If you have both you just have 2 4+ armor values stacking for no reason

Uh, what? From what I can tell, all bikes give is +1 Toughness... Are you sure?

[crazedloon]

any model on a warbike adds 1 to his toughness (though not for determining instant death), modifies his troop type to Bike, gains a 4+ armor save and the.....

for a strait up quote of the rule on page 46 of the codex

[Thatguyoverther]

I finished up my After Action Report if anyone cares to read it.

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My Army

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HQ

Company Command Squad- 70
Sniper Riflesx4

Troops

Veteran Squad- 115
Missile Launcher
Demolitions

Veteran Squad- 120
Plasma Gunsx2
Lascannon

Fast Attack

Sentinel- 45
Missile launcher

Armored Sentinel- 75
Plasma Cannon

Armored Sentinel- 75
Plasma Cannon

Space Marine Army (Not sure on point costs and equipment.)

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HQ

Librarian-
Bike

Troops

Scouts-
Sniper rifles
Missile Launcher

Scouts-
Sniper rifles
Missile Launcher

Fast Attack

Land Speeder-
Meltagun

Land Speeder-
Meltagun

Land Speeder-
Meltagun

Before Turn 1

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The armies are both a little weird for a couple of reasons.

The table was small, only 3 feet by a little less then 4.

My opponent was fully expecting me to take a basilisk. He was planning on using the landspeeders to take it, and any sentinels I took out.

Since I knew that the table was tiny and that my opponent was expecting me to take a basilisk, so I didn't. Score one for double think. I tooled my army thinking that I'd have to deal with nasty anti-tank units. My worst fear was that he'd take deepstrike a dreadnought, so I took a little more anti-tank then was absolutely necessary. I also elected to take just the 2 vet squads, mostly because I was afraid of getting clobbered in an annihilation game.

After showing each other out army lists, we placed terrain and rolled for the game type. There were four fairly large pieces of terrain, a couple of forests, a ruined building and a wall. The forests ended up near the opposite corners, with the ruin and the wall being placed close to the other two corners. We rolled a capture ground mission and standard deployment.

We placed out objectives, he placed his a couple of inches from the woods closer to him so that a squad could cap it and still stay in cover. I, in a stroke, of tactical brilliance decided that I'd place my objective out in the open where I could shooterate anyone who tried to capture it. A second later I realized that I needed to leave a squad in the open to hold it.

He placed both of his scouts in the woods near his objective, one land speeder out of LoS behind the same forest and the librarian behind the wall and out of sight. He opted to keep the other two land speeders in reserve.

I placed my command squad near the forest closer to me, the demo vets in the ruin and the plasma vets near my objective. I placed the sentinel near the forest where he'd be able to move and instant death the librarian. One armored sent. I put behind the plasma squad and the other near the table edge by the ruins.

Turn 1

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My Movement
My movement phase was unexciting. Everyone pretty much hunkered down and prepared to fire. The exceptions where my command squad, who where trying to get into cover in the forest and the missile sent who was moving so he could get LoS on the librarian. I rolled badly for the command squads move through cover, only a single model actually made it into cover.

My Shooting
My krak missile at the librarian missed.

The two vet squads open up, but manage to do nothing against the scouts and their damnable cover saves.

The plasma cannon on one armored sent scatters harmlessly, and the other is ignored by cover saves. I managed to do absolutely nothing in my shooting phase.

My Assault
Nothing was in assault range.

His Movement
The scouts stay put. He moves the librarian up into assault range of the sentinel. He brings his landspeeder around and draws a bead on one of my armored sentinels.

His Shooting
His landspeeder misses, thankfully. Unfortunately both of the scouts squads take shots at both of my armored sentinels and hit. Fortunate he rolls badly of armor penetration and fails to score a even a glancing hit.

The Librarian opens up on my unarmored sentinel but fails to do anything.

I don't feel nearly so bad about my failure of a shooting phase since his fail too.

His Assault
He assaults my missile sent with his librarian. He uses Might of Ancients and then proceeds to score a penetrating hit on my sentinel. It kersplodes but he ignores the measly strength 3 hit.

Turn 2

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My Movement
I move my command squad further into cover, unfortunately I fail again at rolling and a single model doesn't make it into cover.

Deciding that I like to live dangerously I decide to move both of my vet squads forward. I figure that I stand a fair chance of winning an assault. It'll be WS3 S3 T3 against WS3 S4 T4, but if I get the assault it'll be 20 attacks versus 5, int he first round. If I can wipe both his scout squads, then I'll be able to cap his objective for a win.

My Shooting
One of my sentinels fires at the closer of the two scout squads and manages to hit. I manage kill a single scout. Not great but not bad. The other sentinel fires at the landspeeder but misses. It scatters tantalizingly close to his second scout squad but comes up short.

The plasma squad moved so they are no longer in rapid fire range.

The demo squad doesn't fire their guns because I'm planning on assaulting, but throws a demo charge at the landspeeder. I miss.

My Assault
The demo squad is the only one in assault range. I'm left with a conundrum. I can either assault the scout squad in cover or the landspeeder. I figure that since next turn the plasma squad'll be in rapid fire range I can hold off on the scouts and soften them up before assaulting next turn. I opt to charge the landspeeder.

The assault goes nicely. I manage to connect with two plasma grenades, and score two penetrating hits. Unfortunately my luck turns very sharply. The landspeeder explodes, and the dice gods laugh. I loose 6 guardsmen, decimating the demo squad.

His Movement
The scouts stay put. He moves his librarian closer to my command squad

His Shooting
His librarian opens an manages to kill one of the models in my vet squad. I choose to take out the model not in cover. Eat dangerous terrain test you bastard.

His snipers switch targets to my vet squads. The demos loose another man, pass their pinning test but fall back.

The other squad looses two men but passes their pinning test.


His Assault
His hq assaults my hq. He uses might of ancients again and another two guardsmen die.

Turn 3

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My Movement

Things look bad. I can't rally my demo squad and they fall back off the board. Now I'm down to one vet squad. It looks like the best I can hope for now is a draw. I bring my plasma squad back so that I can at least cap my objective.

I also move one of my armored sents into assault range so that he can tie up one of the scout squads.

My Shooting

Since I pulled my vets back, they are once again out of rapid fire range. Le sigh.

Both of the sentinels fire their plasma cannons but as ever they fail me.

My Assault
My armored sentinel attacks. Since it's got a front armor of 12 they can only damage it with a krak grenade and even then they can only score a glancing blow. My attacks fail to do anything, but luckily the mathhammer works, for once, and they don't manage to do anything either.

The other assault goes pretty well, I do nothing and he gets one wound. I take it on my Commander and I fail to make my invulnerable save so he's down a wound.

His Movment
He rolls for his reserves and deep strikes both of his remaining landspeeders. He tries to place them within 12 of my unengaged sentinel but the both scatter.

His Shooting
For some reason my remaining unengaged sentinel seems charmed, one melta shot fails to hit and the other fails to penetrate.

His Assault
His librarian inflicts another wound, feeling gutsy I take it on my commander and he makes is invulnerable save.

Defying the odds the scout squad manages to land two hits with their grenades, one of which scores a glancing hit. It scores a crew stunned, which is doesn't effect anything since my sentinel only had 1 attack to begin with. The sentinel's attack once again does nothing.

Turns 4 & 5

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In my turn my vet squad managed to take out one of the landspeeders and the armored sent took out the other.

After that point it was pretty much just clean up. I kept getting lucky with my invulnerable saves so both of the close combats remained stalemates.

I tried running my remaining walker close enough to contest the second objective but I came up short. The remaining vet squad made it to the objective and sat there without any targets in sight.

Since it ended with us both only holding our own objectives the game came out a draw.

Feel free to give pointers, point out mistakes, or harass my grammar and word choices.

[Thatguyoverther]

EDIT: Ninja'd. HOWEVER, uh, guy with the guard army... against the Marines... Yeah, question for you. If it's take and hold, why was he trucking his librarian toward your command squad? Did he have anyone with him? I do believe Independent Characters are unable to capture objectives by themselves...

Nope he was all alone. I'm not sure. I think he was hoping to break them quickly and move on to another target. It might also have been because the squad was more dangerous in shooting then they would be in close combat.