Warhammer 40K Tactics V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

...Funny story; I actually know how I can put Tyranid Warriors on Bikes.
...Not that I can actually use them in-game or anything.

'Counts As' winged Warriors perhaps?

[evisiron]

The airborne IG may not be too rare. A short while ago I read a UK GW article on the website summarising a recent tournament. It mentioned two IG armies faced each other, each with 9 Valykaries/vendettas for a total of 18 on the table.
...I hope my lootas can handle these things. The last thing I need is an almost eldar list backed up with IG tanks and infantry.

As for my armies, in decending order of recent use:
-Orks. 2000pt tourney list painted. 2500 total. My current force and the first army I ever played.
-Chaos: Iron Warriors. 1000 tourney list painted, about 3000 total. Add another 1000 if using Lost and the Damned
-Eldar. 1000 tourney list painted, about 1500 total
-Necrons. 1000 painted
-Tau. 500 points
-Daemon Hunters 1000pts
-Imperial Guard 1000pts
-Space marines 1000pts. Ultramarines awaiting a Iron Warriors paint scheme.

While I have played most armies, many where before the new edition and had a year gap while I wasn't playing at all, so have fallen behind the times with them.

[evisiron]

...Funny story; I actually know how I can put Tyranid Warriors on Bikes.
...Not that I can actually use them in-game or anything.

I would have no problem with them being Raveners.

[Erloas]

Have to disagree here. As Math-Hammer uses hard stats and presents statistical analysis as fact and immutable. Experience is...Not immutable.

Saying absolutely "BS4 hits 50% of the time. S4 will wound 50% of the time. 4+ armour will save 50% of the time. From ten [Bolter] shots, you're going to kill 2.5 models per phase." This is wrong. This is Math-Hammer. Presenting stats to prove what things will do on any given game. Anybody who has played a game of 40K ever, knows that Math-Hammer doesn't work in the slightest. Because there are outside factors working on dice.

It sounds like you just aren't interpreting the results of mathhammer correctly. Mathhammer says you will average 2.5 wounds, which tells you that shooting against that unit of 10 you are likely to kill a few, but don't be expecting to wipe the unit out and not likely to even cut it in half.

The same way an experienced player knows his unit of 10 tactical marines are going to outshoot a unit of guard with lasguns but that its not going to be enough to take out enough of that unit of boyz in 'eavy armor to make them a non-threat.

Its the same way an experienced player will say banshees are better against SMs then a unit of scorpions. It seems pretty obvious because of the power weapons, but the difference between them isn't that great. You can find that out via experience, but you can get the same thing with a bit of mathhammer as well.

Mathhammering out that it takes an average of 160 lasgun shots to kill an avatar doesn't say you will kill one after that many shots. It does however let you know that it is going to take a huge amount of fire to take him down, to the point where its probably best to target something else with those weapons. Experience will tell you the same thing, it just won't have a number attached to it.


I'm good at figuring averages pretty quickly and it has helped me a huge amount. I can usually look at a set of units and figure out the average wounds before they are done being rolled for, and its usually pretty close. It was what has allowed me to win all but 2 of the first 30-40 games I played against players with a lot more experience. I know tactics and they help a lot, but also knowing what to expect out of a unit without having actually played with it or against it was an easy way to make up for the experience I didn't have before that.
With the experience of some games I don't need to figure out the averages before setting up a fight to know about how much firepower I need to concentrate in a certain area, but it helped early on and it helps when faced with something new as well.

[Lycan 01]

I'm 25 bucks short of an Ork battleforce. If I can just get somebody to buy one of my 360 games, I'll have enough... Or maybe I can mooch it off my dad this weekend. At any rate, my army will be getting a nice boost of Dakka within the next two or so weeks.


Actually, in regards to the 20 Ork boys in the Battleforce, should I split them between Shootas and Sluggas, or just make them all Shootas? (I've already got 20 Sluggas and 10 Shootas, for those who don't know...)

Also, I just realized I'll have an extra Nob left over. What should I do with him? Stick him in with the my Nob Squad (Sluggas and Choppas)? If so, should I give him a Power Klaw, turn his Twin-Linked Shoota into a combi-weapon, or try to convert him into a Painboy?

[Cheesegear]

Actually, in regards to the 20 Ork boys in the Battleforce, should I split them between Shootas and Sluggas, or just make them all Shootas? (I've already got 20 Sluggas and 10 Shootas, for those who don't know...)

Huh...Well, what's wrong with 20 Sluggas, 20 Shootas ('Ard Boyz), and the last ten in the Trukk from the Battleforce?

I'll have an extra Nob left over. What should I do with him? Stick him in with the my Nob Squad (Sluggas and Choppas)? If so, should I give him a Power Klaw, turn his Twin-Linked Shoota into a combi-weapon, or try to convert him into a Painboy?

Well, I'd consider using him as a 'Free Model', and use him to convert up a Painboy. If you fail, it's no big loss because it's an extra model that you don't really need. If you succeed...Well, you have a Painboy. Grats all 'round.

If you're not comfortable with that, yeah, stick him in your Nobz squad.

[Thatguyoverther]

... yeah, stick him in your Nobz squad.

Am I the only one that thought the last bit there sounded sexual?

[IthilanorStPete]

Am I the only one that thought the last bit there sounded sexual?

Not as bad as "just stick it in your Bitz".

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I'm kinda pissed off at some models I don't even have right now. I decided I wanted to write a story based off of a campaign. Problem: I have no army. Solution: VASSAL!

So, it starts with =][= vs 'crons, 500 points, from the perspective of one of the IST sarge's (his unit equipped as Arbites). The story of the battle: Inquisitor Curiotas is investigating the 'crons, and ropes Sarge Ventre into the battle without telling him. Of course, right where it get's interesting, Ventre runs off, and the story doesn't flow if I describe the battle after he's gone. His unit didn't even get a single kill! Shotguns are useless against 'crons. The second unit of IST's where almost as bad: a single kill before being wiped out. The inquisitor's retinue scored a single wound on the 'cron Lord (with a plasma pistol!). But the third unit of IST's, oh they shined (even if they were wiped out). They killed 7 of the first group of 'crons (5 in the first volley, no WBB rolls successful!), routed them, finished off the Lord, and then got themselves wiped out by the last group of 'crons. Why oh why couldn't Ventre stay so i could write about them!

Next battle: 750 pts Necron vs IG outpost garrison. This time, a priest an eviscerator, and a commissar lord a power fist, and make them tag-team the Lord. Hopefully they'll get a wound on him this time. :(

[evisiron]

Not as bad as "just stick the Nob in your Bitz".

Fixed it for you.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Saying absolutely "BS4 hits 50% of the time. S4 will wound 50% of the time. 4+ armour will save 50% of the time. From ten [Bolter] shots, you're going to kill 2.5 models per phase."

Well yeah of course its wrong if you are going to be so definitive about it.

But KNOWING that on average you will kill 2.5 models per phase is useful.

Say I have to make a decision between shooting my heavy weapon or moving up and rapid firing. If on average I will kill more mans with the rapid fire, guess which one I am going to do. Its a useful thing to be able to figure out. And guess how I figured it out? Math.

[Ricky S]

Woot just finished painting my hammerhead. Classic tau colour scheme although I wish now that I had gone for something unique but meh.

Also math hammering annoys the **** out of me because we all know that there are dice gods and they do not follow the averages of maths. Example: 20 gretchin fire at a space marine hero dunno who he was but he was expensive. They killed him in one turn of shooting! Even with his 2+ armour and full wounds! Tell that to your math hammering.

[Tren]

Tell that to your math hammering.

And based off this one experience, are you going to assume every time you shoot gretchin at a space marine character with a 2+ save you'll kill him in one round? If not, that's probably because realize it's not likely. You're using math-hammer. Or better yet if Math-hammer never works, disprove these statements without using statistics or probability: "I should never take lascannons because I will always roll a 1 to hit," and "I should always take an assault cannon because I will always roll a 6 to wound." To suggest mathhamer never "works" is ludicrous, and belies a serious misunderstanding of the nature of statistics.

Probability matters, but it's just that-- its what probable, not what's guaranteed. I've never once seen anybody remotely suggest that running the math hammer on a situation and finding the statistically likely result will guarantee exactly how it must go. I have however see just about everyone I've played against make common-sense decisions based on statistics: "Of these two guardsmen squads, I'm going to shoot the one out of cover, because more should die."

Do things distribute the way they should all the time? Of course not. In my own experience, my dark lances that hit on a 3+ almost always run a 50/50 hit rate. There's also those times that one lucky shot manages to hit, penetrate, and wreck a landraider on the first shot of turn one. It's not likely, but it happens. However, none of that means that I'm not going run my game plan or target priority based on whats likely to occur. I go in neither expecting to one-hit kill a landraider, nor that I'm going to whiff every single one of my rolls-- and I'd hazard an assertion that most players don't either.

[Cheesegear]

Not as bad as "just stick it in your Bitz".

The only reason to play Orks is so you can say;
"I penetrate your rear armour with my Nob."
Or, for Imperial players;
"I penetrate your rear armour with my Fist."

Yep. I've actually said both those sentences with a straight face without even realising what I said.

Also math hammering annoys the **** out of me because we all know that there are dice gods and they do not follow the averages of maths.

Classic example that I posted on this particular board (last thread) was a game vs. Eldar. Captain Falcon went toe-to-toe with an Avatar. 3 Hits, 3 Wounds. Avatar rolled triple 1s on his Invulverable. Captain Falcon FALCOOONNN PUUUNCHed! the Avatar back to last week as it had already taken a wound from Rifles.

MathHammer says that shouldn'tve happened. But, it did. Captain Falcon consistently breaks averages. Player Superstition is often far more reliable than MathHammer.

It's why D&D players cover their dice when someone mentions the Grapple rules. It appears to help.

-----------------------------------

So, I've hit a snag with my Tyranid 'Warrior' Army; I can't play Combat Patrol missions. For those of you who never played 4th Ed. or earlier;

Combat Patrol was a 400pt game where the FO restrictions were 0-1 HQ, 1+ Troops. And then anything you want. There were certain other restrictions (no 2+ saves, for example). But, it was basically the 'newbie mission' of 40K and nobody ever had to play Battle of Macragge (to 4th Ed. what AoBR is to 5th) because they could play Combat Patrols with any army they wanted.

(Here's to hoping that Combat Patrol appears in Battle Missions)

Anyway, I've been told by other people who are partaking in the 'Challenge' that they want to start off playing Combat Patrols (funny story; The Official 4th Ed. rules for Combat Patrol reference Kroot Mercenary lists ).

Except I can't play Combat Patrols because Tyranid Warriors are 3 Wounds each (one of the rules of CP is that models can not have more than 2 wounds). Slight snag.
I may have to be exempt from Battles for a month if I go with Tyranids.

Unless the votes change rapidly, it looks like I'm playing either Tyranids or Tau.

So, pre-emptive starter lists;

Hive Fleet Stalker

Spoiler

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Tyranid Prime Alpha Warrior - 100 Points
Boneswords, Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands

Tyranid Warriors (x5) - 180 Points
Deathspitters, Scything Talons, Barbed Strangler

Tyranid Warriors (x5) - 180 Points
Deathspitters, Scything Talons, Barbed Strangler

Ripper Swam (x4) - 40 Points

Total: 500 Points.

The Tyranid Warriors came out less expensive than expected. Not bad considering they have 15 wounds each. I just have to watch for Meltaguns and Power Fists.

I'm tempted to drop the Rippers and give the Alpha Warrior a Lash Whip and Bonesword instead of dual Boneswords (total 105 points), and then add a 6th 35 point Warrior to one of the Broods. Have one Brood of 6, and one Brood of 5, plus the Alpha.

Pinning is invaluable at this points level as Infantry is the name of the game in 500 points. So, I've gone for Barbed Stranglers. Secondly, at this level of play, Assaulting is not really that important (or, rather, Warriors can Assault just fine as-is, especially with the Alpha Warrior giving them WS 6).

However, at this stage, I'm slightly afraid of Dreadnoughts and Killa Kans who make a fairly common appearance in 500 points. I may have to drop the Alpha's Scything Talons for Rending Claws? Or drop the Boneswords? Stupid question.

Lastly, does the Parasite of Mortrex count as a Warrior? Or am I ruining my list by wanting to put him in at some point to turn my Shrikes dead-killy?

Next 500 points will be adding a third Warrior Brood, Zoanthropes, and then spending whatever is left on building up the Broods. Probably getting rid of the Rippers as soon as I no longer need them. Which is...Soon.

The School of 'Fish

Spoiler

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Shas'el (Ishma'el) - 122 Points
Cyclic Ion Blaster, Missile Pod, Targeting Array
Hard Wired; Multi-Tracker, Drone Controller {x2 Shield Drones}

Fire Warriors (x10) - 135 Points
Shas'ui; Bonding Knife, Drone Controller (x2 Gun Drones)

Fire Warriors (x10) - 135 Points
x9 Faire Warriors; x2 Carbines
Shas'ui; Bonding Knife, Drone Controller (x2 Gun Drones)

Devilfish - 90 Points
Gun Drones, Multi-Tracker

At first I went completely overboard with the Commander (I forget who gave me the idea of painting my Hammerheads white, but, I love it), and I've since named my Commander Ishma'el, which works well with the Tau language. His Missile Pod is his Harpoon Gun. Expect that conversion.
His background is that he lost one of his legs to a Mawloc. But, then they put him in a Crisis Suit and he's all good.
If I ever give him an Ejection System (unlikely), I know how I have to model the Pilot. I may just model the Pilot anyway. Fire Warriors come in boxes of 12, I only need 10.

Fluff for this army is heavily based on Deep-Sea fish. The little fish (Fire Warriors) will be bright and shiny blue. The larger Crisis Suits will be Darker Blue. And both Pathfinders and Stealth Teams will be in the default colour scheme for Stealth Teams, and they'll be shining lights on things.
(Get it...Dark Deep-Sea Fish...With Markerlights...)

Tanks will be white whales.

Next 500 points goes into a Hammerwhale, more Fire Warriors, more Devilwhales. Maybe some Pathfinders.

Did I do it right?

[Myatar_Panwar]

MathHammer doesn't say that those things shouldn't have happened. Only that they are improbable. And they are. Really the only thing that bugs me about the concept of mathhammer is that people call it mathhammer. So dumb.

Anyway, I know they are releasing Kill Teams in the new book. From what you described of combat patrol, its similar but smaller. 200 points, only troops, fast attack, or elites. Every model counts as an individual unit.

[evisiron]

Cheesegear: from an opponent point of view, both armies look fairly solid. Personal preference would have the non-mounted firewarriors replaced with hound heavy kroot due to the infiltration for enhanced mobility (that one FW squad is slow - though 30" range can make up for it), but I know the kroot are not really fitting the overall theme and style.

[Cheesegear]

Really the only thing that bugs me about the concept of mathhammer is that people call it mathhammer. So dumb.

Because most people probably don't understand what MathHammer is. MathHammer is presents Chance as Fact. "A Plasmagun has a better chance than a Bolter of killing a Space Marine." is not MathHammer. It's an estimate. That type of thinking can be directly related to a Codex and simple numbers on the page.

"A Plasmagun has X% more chance of killing a Space Marine." is MathHammer. Because it deals with real maths. And it is presented as fact and immutable. And people start getting pissed when their dice roll 'less than average', because MathHammer is Facts. MathHammer isn't about guessing/estimating how many you'll kill. It's knowing to a precise number (usually including decimals, which doesn't apply when dealing with real numbers as you can't kill half a model) how many you'll kill.

Anyway, I know they are releasing Kill Teams in the new book. From what you described of combat patrol, its similar but smaller. 200 points, only troops, fast attack, or elites. Every model counts as an individual unit.

Yeah. I know about that. Kill Team is a couple of guys running around the board.

Combat Patrol is a legit list designed to get new players starting on their army. Any army you want. And used to come as a stock mission in the main rulebook.

Spoiler

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• 400 Points
• Mandatory 1+ Troops
• 0-1 HQ Limit
• Anything else you want. Just no more than 1 HQ.
• No models with more than 2 Wounds
• No special characters
• No 2+ saves
• No vehicle with total Armour of 33 or better
• No Ordnance
• 'Pitched Battle/Annhilation' Mission Rules (although there's no reason you couldn't change it if you wanted to.
• Usually played on 4'x4'

Basically, it allows you to get a feel for your army using non-over-powered models and a small points-level. It's a far more perfect system than AoBR will ever be as you can use whatever you want. And isn't "Terminators kill everything." or "I swamp them with Boyz."

I can see why our group wants to play it a few times. I used to play it myself back in 4th. And I played it a lot when it came out in 3rd. But, yeah, playing all-Warriors removes me from the running.

Personal preference would have the non-mounted firewarriors replaced with hound heavy kroot due to the infiltration for enhanced mobility (that one FW squad is slow - though 30" range can make up for it), but I know the kroot are not really fitting the overall theme and style.

...That would actually mean getting the Battleforce would be near-perfect. But, like you just pointed out, I can't see myself using the Kroot for a long time after the first 500 points and I would replace them with Fire Warriors and 'Fish as soon as I could.

[Myatar_Panwar]

You are giving me a headache.

I was writing up a response to that math hammer bit, but then I realized that arguing over the fictional definition of a fictional term is undeniably silly.

Take from it what you will.

[Cheesegear]

You are giving me a headache.

Unlike the rest of the internet, I don't take this as a compliment. Nor is it a sign of my 'victory'.

I was writing up a response to that math hammer bit, but then I realized that arguing over the fictional definition of a fictional term is undeniably silly.

Confirmed. Ultimately, there are people who portray MathHammer as fact. The rest of us treat it as a guide, or, simply don't bother with it at all.

Not even flipping a coin is random.
If you know the face-up before you flip the coin, know how hard and how high you are going to flip the coin, you can get the weight, and therefore the number of 'spins' and exactly what the face-up outcome will be...If you're bothered. YAY SCIENCE!

Rolling dice is random because there are more factors involved. Unless you have just one dice. It is a 'perfect' dice and you pick it up and roll it exactly the same way every time. Which doesn't happen in 40K.

[Arcanoi]

Classic example that I posted on this particular board (last thread) was a game vs. Eldar. Captain Falcon went toe-to-toe with an Avatar. 3 Hits, 3 Wounds. Avatar rolled triple 1s on his Invulverable. Captain Falcon FALCOOONNN PUUUNCHed! the Avatar back to last week as it had already taken a wound from Rifles.

MathHammer says that shouldn'tve happened. But, it did. Captain Falcon consistently breaks averages. Player Superstition is often far more reliable than MathHammer.

Actually, MathHammer says it's unlikely, not impossible. Which means that if your Captain Falcon had better places to be, like say... a nice fluffy Seer Council, he should have been there. It's a visceral, integral variation of MathHammer. It's the one that tells you that a squad of 10 Space Marines will outshoot a squad of 10 Guardsmen, all other things being equal. MathHammer in its true form is more along the lines of basing your game off statistical probabilities. Warhammer is War, and **** happens in War. Math happens too, just not like you want it to.

I'm tempted to drop the Rippers and give the Alpha Warrior a Lash Whip and Bonesword instead of dual Boneswords (total 105 points), and then add a 6th 35 point Warrior to one of the Broods. Have one Brood of 6, and one Brood of 5, plus the Alpha.

The rippers will be good at tying things up if nothing else. For forty points that's pretty good. If you're fighting a player with 3 squads, you'll benefit more from the rippers than that one extra warrior.

. I may have to drop the Alpha's Scything Talons for Rending Claws?

I'd advise for the Rending Claws, at 500 anyway. The Scythes will be fine once you add Zoans and Hive Guard.

Lastly, does the Parasite of Mortrex count as a Warrior?

He is if you model him as such

Tanks will be white whales.

Shouldn't Hammerheads be Hammerhead sharks?

[Cheesegear]

He is if you model him as such.

From page 106, I'll probably be using a Ravener body, a set of Rending Claws (the middle finger cut out for a Scything Talon), a second set of Talons, and wings (which set exactly, I'll figure out) in the top slot (Raveners have six 'holes' for arms).

...I guess he's more of a Ravener with Wings, than a Warrior. Still, that counts, right? As I'm using Raveners as well.

Shouldn't Hammerheads be Hammerhead sharks?

As an Australian, I can't believe I didn't think of Great White Sharks. The single most deadly thing in the ocean.

[hamishspence]

I wouldn't count him as a warrior for the purposes of things like Alpha Warrior (pairing him up with a squad of Tyranid Warriors and a Warrior Prime to get the Alpha Warrior bonus).

This is because there is nothing in his description or statblock to suggest he is a type of Tyranid Warrior.

He seems to take more after the Harpy or the Gargoyle, except for being a synapse creature, and having no ranged attacks.

[Cheesegear]

I wouldn't count him as a warrior for the purposes of things like Alpha Warrior (pairing him up with a squad of Tyranid Warriors and a Warrior Prime to get the Alpha Warrior bonus).

I meant in regards to 'Will he fit in with my All-Warrior army'. Which runs the genus of Raveners, Shrikes and Lictors as well.
Plus Zoanthropes and Hive Guard. 'Cause they're almost mandatory now.

He seems to take more after the Harpy or the Gargoyle, except for being a synapse creature, and having no ranged attacks.

Really? His statblock puts him somewhere between an Alpha Warrior and a Shrike. With a Tervigon-like ability to spawn Ripper Swarms a la Aliens.

[hamishspence]

I meant in general shape and size- Shrikes and Alpha Warriors have longer legs. and don't look as snaky.

The Parasite falls neatly between Gargoyle and Harpy in size.

If you're running an "all multi-wound non-monstrous creature army" though, he fits in just fine.

And the ripper swarm spawning ability is fairly interesting.

[slimy_te_t_cles]

CG, wouldn't Termagaunts instead of Rippers be 1: better and 2: more in keeping with the warrior centric nature of your army? Termagaunts and Warriors are specifically mentioned as having a particularly close relationship in the 'Nid book

[Cheesegear]

And the ripper swarm spawning ability is fairly interesting.

I kill your unit...In return, I get D6 Rippers per kill. Up to...30 Rippers if it's Parasite's Assault. Put him up against Guard or even Gretchin. He should massacre everything.

One thing that needs to be cleared up in the FAQ is do the Parasite's Rippers form a new unit with him? Or are they a separate unit? Do they count as scoring units?
As the Tervigon's Termagants count as new scoring units.

CG, wouldn't Termagaunts instead of Rippers be 1: better

Not at the moment, no. As I only have 40 points to spare. It would get me...Eight Termagants. That isn't even a legal unit.

Termagaunts and Warriors are specifically mentioned as having a particularly close relationship in the 'Nid book

Yeah. I saw that. But, it also defeats the purpose of the Elite Swarm. I may end up using them at a later date, but, I had kind of already settled on Genestealers.

Part of me does want to use 20 Termagants plus Spore as Fleshborers aren't that bad anymore (they're 12" Assault 1 Bolters)...For 140 Points...What? Wow! Really? Alright. I might do this when I get some Lictors up for Pheramone Trail. But, it wont be for a while.

Then I may have to make a Tervigon as well...

[lord_khaine]

Ill throw in a vote for whatever Eldar army got the most votes, as well as a question regarding Wraithguards, are they still usefull and if so at what?

I was personaly considering if it would be worth it to stuff them into a Wave serpent.

[slimy_te_t_cles]

Rippers are swarms - they can't capture objectives

edit} and here's my 500pts
HQ:
Tyranid prime, Lashwhips, Bonesword, Adrenal glands, Rending claws
Troops:
23 Termagaunts
5 Tyranid warriors, Barbed strangler, Deathspitters
Elites
2 Hive guard


please make me aware of its weaknesses

edi} changed 21 termies to 23

[hamishspence]

One thing that needs to be cleared up in the FAQ is do the Parasite's Rippers form a new unit with him? Or are they a separate unit? Do they count as scoring units?
As the Tervigon's Termagants count as new scoring units.

I thought Swarms never counted as scoring units, anyway?

EDIT: Ninjaed.

I figure that since he's an independant character, he can leave them, even if they form a new unit.

[Cheesegear]

Here's my 500pts
HQ:
Tyranid prime, Lashwhips, Bonesword, Adrenal glands, Rending claws
Troops:
21 Termagaunts
5 Tyranid warriors, Barbed strangler, Deathspitters
Elites
2 Hive guard

...That's way better than my List.
Have a cookie. I can see the usefulness, but, I just don't like the Termagants. With Fleshborers, their guns are too short-range. At Armour 6+, they'll likely die before they even get to do anything worthwhile.
Like I said, I'm going to wait until I can afford Lictors and Mycetic Spores in the list before I have Termagants.

Hive Guard are decent, but, really not that important as this stage. I like their ability to shoot through walls.
HAX!