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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Questions on this build, Elven Knight of sorts

    First, I hope I'm posting this in the correct place, been lurking more than posting.

    Now, the main point, I need to come up with a character for an upcoming epic game (about two weeks out if it stays together). Now I have messed around with epic character creation, but have never actually played an epic game, so I was hoping for some input from those more experienced. I'm going for a classic "Elven Knight", armor, deadly swordsman etc. Will eventually have a fairly detailed background, especially starting so high, rough outline: born to a small forest enclave that was raided by orcs, only survivor, starts as barbarian living off land hunting orcs, helps save a cleric of Corellon, taken into society, enlist in militia, taken into prestigious templar school, joined the Champions of Corellon, chosen by Corellon (enter True Believer feat) as a Paladin and Templar, as skilled as he is, temple he guarded was sacked, has rep as a dangerous, single minded, devout swordsman. More detail when I get more world info from DM. My build so far stands at:

    CG Male Wood Elf 5'10" 175 lbs
    Barbarian 2/Fighter 10/Paladin 5/Cleric 1/Ordained Champion 2/Champion of Corellon 10
    Starting stats (given by DM) - 16, 16, 14, 10, 14, 14
    Str - 22 (+2 race, 4, 12, 24, 28 level increases)
    Dex - 18 (+2 race)
    Con - 15 (-2 race, 8, 16, 20 level increases)
    Int - 8 (-2 race)
    Wis - 14
    Cha - 14

    BAB +24/+19/+14/+9
    Fort +23
    Ref +9
    Will +16

    Feats - CoC allows any fighter bonus, Paladin an OC allows fighter or divine
    11 regular - Improved Weapon Familiarity (elven), Cleave, Dodge, Mounted Combat, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, True Believer, Extra Smite, Extra Rage, War Devotion, Practiced Spellcaster (cleric)

    6 Fighter - Weapon Focus (courtblade), Weapon Spec (courtblade), Weapon Mastery (slashing), Slashing Flurry, Combat Expertise, Power Attack

    4 CoC - Improved Critical (courtblade), Power Critical, Combat Reflexes, Improved Buckler Defense

    1 Paladin - Awesome Smite

    2 OC - Divine Might, Divine Vigor

    Skills - (in flux till build nailed down, ranks only, haven't looked at any skill tricks yet)
    Climb +13
    Diplomacy +17
    Intimidate +17
    Jump +13
    Knowledge (religion) +7
    Listen +18
    Ride +29
    Sense Motive +24
    Spot +22
    Gear - mithral fullplate, buckler, elven courtblade

    (ACF's and homebrew: Paladin of Freedom and Whirling Frenzy rage variant from UA, lvl 1 Barbarian Lion Totem swap fast movement for pounce, and Holy Warrior non-spellcasting Paladin variant, both from CC. Fighters get 4 skill points per level, list includes Intimidate, Bluff, Knowledge (local, dungeoneering, architecture, and history), Sense Motive, Listen and Spot. Any elven blade counts for Corellon's favored weapon.)

    I thought about doing the courtblade and Pluto (see third post) has decided to advise me that is the way to go. The four levels of Paladin grab access to turning, which leads to Divine feats (Might, Shield, Vigor). Even with the boost to Fighter skills, this guy isn't really going to be a skill-monkey, so I'd like him to be as combat effective as possible, figure he's getting 1d10+13 (9 Str+4 Dex)damage, un-buffed and without items, I hope it won't be too hard.

    His gear is also a concern, I have no idea what sort of enchants to put on it, or even what kind of gear he should have at epic levels, help there will be appreciated. DMG standard for 35th level character, 7,900,000gp starting wealth, 5 level bonus on wealth to those without spellcasting, since they will be pretty item dependent.

    Between me and the DM we have pretty much every 3.5 book, with the exception of Forgotten Realms material (we mostly play Eberron), and ACF's and sub levels are all okay (as probably noted). However, the DM is ruling no ToB, MoI, or psionics.

    That said, I hope I can get this guy straightened out, I'm looking forward to my first epic game! Thank you for your help.
    Last edited by WarlockOfSibery; 2010-02-12 at 12:21 AM. Reason: Changed build per advice recieved, swapped Swash and PT for Cleric and OC, changed feat list.

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    herrhauptmann's Avatar

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    Default Re: Questions on this build, Elven Knight of sorts

    If you want to free up a feat and a few levels, there's an item in Complete Champion which grants you mettle (I assume that's why you have PT4). If you already have mettle, I think you can get improved mettle with the item.

    Hexblade, and witchslayer (ToM prc) also grant mettle. However, your cha isn't really high enough to make use of the witchslayer capstone momentary disjunction. It's a low DC, but it shuts down all casting, SU, SLA for 1 round. Item uses are unaffected.

    edit: You should probably boost your spot higher, or abandon it entirely. 13 ranks for a level 30 character isn't very much.
    Skill tricks: Stand from prone as free action is a good one.
    And so is the one which grants you a 1/day Identify (requires some spellcraft and appraise)
    Last edited by herrhauptmann; 2010-02-11 at 12:26 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Default Re: Questions on this build, Elven Knight of sorts

    If you're worried about optimization, you don't really have abilities suitable for a level 15 game.

    I don't place great stock in CO, but if it's a concern for you, you might want to rebuild one of two ways:

    A. Heavy ToB use. A combination of Crusader, Warblade and Eternal Blade [with some homebrewed Epic Maneuvers] would match this build's fluff and would help fend off the Epic Fighter Blues (where having big numbers, but zero options leaves you on the sidelines).

    -or-

    B. Epic Cleric casting. A build like:
    [Cleric 16/Adapted Ordained Champion 5/Prestige Paladin 3/Barbarian 2/Pious Templar 4]
    ...will have the same fluff as your build, but will have 13th level spells. Add in a bit of homebrew and you've got a build. (Even conservatively speaking, a couple 7th level buff spells should replicate all the class abilities you miss out on. 13th level buffs might seem excessive, but Epic means Miracles fly like Magic Missiles.)



    I'm not sure what's going on with your alignment. And I'm assuming multiclass penalties aren't in play.

    Quick feat nitpicks:
    TWF and ASF are redundant iirc.
    You have 3 feats dedicated to small static attack bonuses. At level 30, they're probably irrelevant.
    You don't qualify for Weapon Supremacy unless there are some other houserules.

    Quote Originally Posted by WarlockOfSibery View Post
    I thought about doing the courtblade instead of the thinblade, but figured +1 point of average damage vs shield AC at epic levels, why not go shield, and drop it to THF if I need.
    Since you're dwelling on numbers here: The Improved Buckler Defense feat (CWarrior) and the Animated Shield enhancement will leave you two hands for that Courtblade. With Power Attack and some means of reliably landing hits, a two handed weapon like the courtblade will drastically improve your performance.
    Last edited by Pluto; 2010-02-11 at 04:35 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Questions on this build, Elven Knight of sorts

    Thanks for the input guys, please check the top post for edits.

    Quote Originally Posted by herrhauptmann View Post
    If you want to free up a feat and a few levels, there's an item in Complete Champion which grants you mettle (I assume that's why you have PT4). If you already have mettle, I think you can get improved mettle with the item.
    That is the exact reason indeed. What item is it that you mentioned? Looked through CC, unless I missed it...

    Quote Originally Posted by herrhauptmann View Post
    edit: You should probably boost your spot higher, or abandon it entirely. 13 ranks for a level 30 character isn't very much.
    Skill tricks: Stand from prone as free action is a good one.
    And so is the one which grants you a 1/day Identify (requires some spellcraft and appraise)
    Drop Balance and Survival ranks? That would give me a +22 bonus without modifiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pluto View Post
    If you're worried about optimization, you don't really have abilities suitable for a level 15 game.

    I don't place great stock in CO, but if it's a concern for you, you might want to rebuild one of two ways:

    A. Heavy ToB use. A combination of Crusader, Warblade and Eternal Blade [with some homebrewed Epic Maneuvers] would match this build's fluff and would help fend off the Epic Fighter Blues (where having big numbers, but zero options leaves you on the sidelines).

    -or-

    B. Epic Cleric casting. A build like:
    [Cleric 16/Adapted Ordained Champion 5/Prestige Paladin 3/Barbarian 2/Pious Templar 4]
    ...will have the same fluff as your build, but will have 13th level spells. Add in a bit of homebrew and you've got a build. (Even conservatively speaking, a couple 7th level buff spells should replicate all the class abilities you miss out on. 13th level buffs might seem excessive, but Epic means Miracles fly like Magic Missiles.)
    Super optimized can-kill-great-wyrms-alone, isnt what I was going for, the DM is pretty fair. I wish there was ToB use, but its banned. I would stat this guy as a Crusader/Warblade in a heartbeat. As far as Cleric, I know everybody says its far superior to a fighter, and its all just flavor, but I'd prefer a more martial build. That said, Ordained Champion is pretty good, and I do love my bonus feats. Corellon really only has War and Protection for good Domains off the top of my head (I'll look into that some more), I'd swap some for feats. Technically Paladin can qualify for OC but would be worthless. As far as buffs go, another player is playing a theurge buff monster, possible war weaver, so I think I'm safe not having uber buffs myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pluto View Post
    I'm not sure what's going on with your alignment. And I'm assuming multiclass penalties aren't in play.

    Quick feat nitpicks:
    TWF and ASF are redundant iirc.
    You have 3 feats dedicated to small static attack bonuses. At level 30, they're probably irrelevant.
    You don't qualify for Weapon Supremacy unless there are some other houserules.
    Really? Thought you needed one for the other... Sorry using Paladin of Freedon variant(UA) too AL is CG, and no multiclass penalties. You're right, was copying from my feat wish list, I don't get Supremacy, but Weapon Focus and Specs are prereqs.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pluto View Post
    Since you're dwelling on numbers here: The Improved Buckler Defense feat (CWarrior) and the Animated Shield enhancement will leave you two hands for that Courtblade. With Power Attack and some means of reliably landing hits, a two handed weapon like the courtblade will drastically improve your performance.
    The thought of him stalking in stabbing and bashing, ala 300, was just a cool image. Thanks for the input. Switching build to drop Swashbuckler, so with no need for light armor, going the full plate and buckler route, which meets up with two handed courtblade way.

  5. - Top - End - #5
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    Default Re: Questions on this build, Elven Knight of sorts

    I'd strongly suggest working with your DM for an epic progression of CoC. You might find it more useful than Barb 2 and/or Paladin 5.
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  6. - Top - End - #6
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    Default Re: Questions on this build, Elven Knight of sorts

    Quote Originally Posted by WarlockOfSibery View Post
    Thanks for the input guys, please check the top post for edits.
    That is the exact reason indeed. What item is it that you mentioned? Looked through CC, unless I missed it...
    Drop Balance and Survival ranks? That would give me a +22 bonus without modifiers.
    Tabard of Valor page 142. Turns out only works at half hitpoints or less. But at 16k, for cheap to stack onto other equipment. If you have mettle already, it grants IMPROVED mettle. :)
    Why are you expecting to use balance? For use in preventing trips? For skill trick prereqs? If not, drop to 0. Tumble I assume is there so you can avoid AOOs? Better to be good at 3 things and suck terribly at everything else. Than to be less than mediocre at everything.
    Survival, probably not worth anything at that level unless you keep it maxed out. Or, 5-6 points to ensure that you can feed yourself while all alone in the wilderness. But, it's an epic game, and I assume you've got multiple casters of all flavors, so the chances of needing to scrounge food are slim to none. (Ring of sustenance, spells)

    PT grants Weapon Spec as a bonus right? In addition to a regular bonus feat or 3 somewhere. Might want to designate those as bonus feats for the rest of us so we don't steer you wrong. Also, does PT grant Paladin or Cleric casting? I can't remember.

    Courtblade is typically an exotic weapon? Check out Exotic weapon master. He gets a flurry style attack which I believe is superior to Slashing Fury (That -5 to hit on Slashing fury is pretty rough. I had it on a character a year ago, That -5 made me hit about a third of the time. Without it, I hit about half the time.)

    Amulet of Retribution (BoED version). 56k to buy, very nice. Half of all melee damage is reflected back on attacker.
    Retaliation armor (flat cost, MIC) each melee attack that deals 10 points of damage to you, activates teh armor, making it deal 1d6 to the attacker. Stack with the amulet, and a melee brute will kill himself before he kills you.
    Blueshine armor (MIC)- +2 hide (meh), Armor immune to acid/rust (awesome). Doesn't work on shields.
    Everbright weapon (MIC)- ref save vs blind 2/day, meh. Low DC, with bad luck will blind allies more often than enemies. Pretty much requires a nat 1 on save at epic levels. Weapon is immune to acid/rust, awesome.
    At that level, with that money, might as well buy EVERY flat cost enhancement to your weapons and armor you can find.
    Blessed weapon: BoED version. +1. Auto confirm crits on evil.
    Holy surge weapon (MIC)

    Go cheesey: Stack the following.
    -Custom boots of haste. 27k will get you infinite uses per day as if from a 5th level caster. +1 attack, +1 dodge to AC, +1 ref, +1 attack at highest bonus when making full attack. :)
    -Boots of striding + springing. Speed boost
    -Steadfast boots: If holding a 2handed slashing weapon (like courtblade), you get a free attack on someone who charges you as if you had readied to against a charge.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Questions on this build, Elven Knight of sorts

    Quote Originally Posted by herrhauptmann View Post
    Tabard of Valor page 142. Turns out only works at half hitpoints or less. But at 16k, for cheap to stack onto other equipment. If you have mettle already, it grants IMPROVED mettle. :)
    About five minutes after I last posted I saw this. Dropped PT for now, build getting changed, but if its IMPROVED Mettle, why...

    Quote Originally Posted by herrhauptmann View Post
    Why are you expecting to use balance? For use in preventing trips? For skill trick prereqs? If not, drop to 0. Tumble I assume is there so you can avoid AOOs? Better to be good at 3 things and suck terribly at everything else. Than to be less than mediocre at everything.
    Survival, probably not worth anything at that level unless you keep it maxed out. Or, 5-6 points to ensure that you can feed yourself while all alone in the wilderness. But, it's an epic game, and I assume you've got multiple casters of all flavors, so the chances of needing to scrounge food are slim to none. (Ring of sustenance, spells)
    Balance was something to spend Swashbuckler skills on, buts that's a non-issue now, same with Tumble, switching to full plate, kinda pointless, will change. Survival was a mostly for flavor, its not actually required. Yeah looking like three full casters in a group of six.

    Quote Originally Posted by herrhauptmann View Post
    PT grants Weapon Spec as a bonus right? In addition to a regular bonus feat or 3 somewhere. Might want to designate those as bonus feats for the rest of us so we don't steer you wrong. Also, does PT grant Paladin or Cleric casting? I can't remember.
    Will mark bonus feats, PT has its own spells per day off of Paladin list.

    Quote Originally Posted by herrhauptmann View Post
    Courtblade is typically an exotic weapon? Check out Exotic weapon master. He gets a flurry style attack which I believe is superior to Slashing Fury (That -5 to hit on Slashing fury is pretty rough. I had it on a character a year ago, That -5 made me hit about a third of the time. Without it, I hit about half the time.)
    Yes it is exotic, and EWM is a bust, the flurry attack requires a double weapon, and the uncanny blow (for x2 Str) requires a one-handed weapon wielded two-handed. Maybe can get it ruled to not matter...

    Quote Originally Posted by herrhauptmann View Post
    Amulet of Retribution (BoED version). 56k to buy, very nice. Half of all melee damage is reflected back on attacker.
    Retaliation armor (flat cost, MIC) each melee attack that deals 10 points of damage to you, activates teh armor, making it deal 1d6 to the attacker. Stack with the amulet, and a melee brute will kill himself before he kills you.
    Blueshine armor (MIC)- +2 hide (meh), Armor immune to acid/rust (awesome). Doesn't work on shields.
    Everbright weapon (MIC)- ref save vs blind 2/day, meh. Low DC, with bad luck will blind allies more often than enemies. Pretty much requires a nat 1 on save at epic levels. Weapon is immune to acid/rust, awesome.
    At that level, with that money, might as well buy EVERY flat cost enhancement to your weapons and armor you can find.
    Blessed weapon: BoED version. +1. Auto confirm crits on evil.
    Holy surge weapon (MIC)

    Go cheesey: Stack the following.
    -Custom boots of haste. 27k will get you infinite uses per day as if from a 5th level caster. +1 attack, +1 dodge to AC, +1 ref, +1 attack at highest bonus when making full attack. :)
    -Boots of striding + springing. Speed boost
    -Steadfast boots: If holding a 2handed slashing weapon (like courtblade), you get a free attack on someone who charges you as if you had readied to against a charge.
    Can you just stack magic items like that? Just add prices together for multiple effects? Sweet.

    Marking bonus feats in first post

  8. - Top - End - #8
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    Default Re: Questions on this build, Elven Knight of sorts

    Quote Originally Posted by WarlockOfSibery View Post
    About five minutes after I last posted I saw this. Dropped PT for now, build getting changed, but if its IMPROVED Mettle, why...
    Yeah, if my reading is right, improved mettle when at less than half hitpoints. Regular with above half.
    Quote Originally Posted by WarlockOfSibery View Post
    Will mark bonus feats, PT has its own spells per day off of Paladin list.
    Yes it is exotic, and EWM is a bust, the flurry attack requires a double weapon, and the uncanny blow (for x2 Str) requires a one-handed weapon wielded two-handed. Maybe can get it ruled to not matter...
    Forgot about the double weapon requirement. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by WarlockOfSibery View Post
    Can you just stack magic items like that? Just add prices together for multiple effects? Sweet.
    Marking bonus feats in first post
    Yup. Both DMG and MIC have rules for stacking. The MIC rules are much more lenient in regards to stacking. DMG rules let you get a lot more abuse out of custom wondrous items like the haste boots: Tablecloth of Heroes feast 2/day. Chalice of 'Heal' 3/day. Item of Persisted Wraith strike x/day.
    Cost on those things adds up, but it's a nice boost if the entire party chips in on certain items.
    A shame your DM won't allow psionics. There's a power that would work great as an item. Synthesete. Ignore blindness OR deafness. If neither blind nor deaf, can a +4 bonus to Spot/search OR listen.

    Looks like you can get 6 attacks a round with just the build? 19/14/9/4/19 (slash fury) / 19 (whirling rage). Add in the boots of haste, and you'll get up to 7 a round :) 3 at your highest bonus.
    Never actually built an epic character, so not sure if you've added up your attack bonuses and saves properly.

    edit: DMG rules for stacking say that cheaper effects get boosted in cost by 50% or so.
    Another suggestion: Soulfire armor BoED. Various immunities to things that are save or suck.
    Last edited by herrhauptmann; 2010-02-12 at 01:06 AM.

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