Monk abilities as Swordsage ACFs

**Eldan** · 2010-02-28, 10:02 AM (ISO 8601)

Just an idea that came to me when I saw the argument "The swordsage is what the monk should have been" yet again. What about making a few monk abilities into swordsage abilities? So that you basically can fully emulate a monk with a swordsage?

Therefore:

The Englightened Swordsage
Alternate Class features for the swordsage

Still Mind
Lose: Quick to Act
Gain: You gain a +1 bonus to saves against spells and effects of the enchantment school. At levels 5, 10, 15 and 20, this bonus increases by +1.

Purity of Body: (Su)
Lose: Insightful Strike
Gain: At 4th level, you gains immunity to all diseases except for supernatural and magical diseases. At level 12, you also gain immunity to poisons, except for supernatural and magical poisons.

Wholeness of Body: (Su)
Lose: Sense Magic
Gain: At 7th level or higher, youcan heal your own wounds. You can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to twice your current initiator level each day, and can spread this healing out among several uses.

So what do people think? Worth it? Not Worth it? I left out exchanging Dual Boost for the Outsider type, because that seemed definitely a stupid trade.

**PairO'Dice Lost** · 2010-02-28, 01:19 PM (ISO 8601)

The only issue I see with this is that you gain Purity of Body at 5th level but give up Discipline Focus, which is gained at 4th. They should either give up Discipline Focus and get it at 4th, or give up Quick to Act +2 (shifting everything down by +1) and get it at 5th. Also, you have Purity of Body again instead of Still Mind.

Other than that, looks good. I'd never take them, but then again I've never played a monk and don't plan to. Assuming I wanted to emulate a monk, they look fine from a balance perspective.

**Eldan** · 2010-02-28, 02:07 PM (ISO 8601)

Ah, yes. Those were copy-paste errors. It's corrected now.

**PairO'Dice Lost** · 2010-02-28, 02:18 PM (ISO 8601)

Everything looks fine now.

**DaTedinator** · 2010-02-28, 10:53 PM (ISO 8601)

I'd suggest some way to gain Ki Strike, but yeah, looks good to me.

**Apropos** · 2010-02-28, 11:42 PM (ISO 8601)

Still mind is an utterly worthless trade. I don't know about you guys, but I would pick +1 initiative versus +1 to a very situational will save any day.

**Temotei** · 2010-03-01, 12:06 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Apropos

Still mind is an utterly worthless trade. I don't know about you guys, but I would pick +1 initiative versus +1 to a very situational will save any day.

Agreed. Slippery mind is probably too powerful to use in place of it though, so maybe a middle ground?

Then again, that's not a monk ability. Hmm...

**Apropos** · 2010-03-01, 12:11 AM (ISO 8601)

Actually if I were playing an unnarmed swordsage, I wouldn't pick any of these things. Except possibly Wholeness of Body, because my wizard companion would probably already have detect magic

**Haven** · 2010-03-01, 12:26 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Apropos

Actually if I were playing an unnarmed swordsage, I wouldn't pick any of these things. Except possibly Wholeness of Body, because my wizard companion would probably already have detect magic

The Sense Magic class feature is actually a free Identify, limited to weapons or armor, with 10-minute instead of hour-long casting time. Not sure if it's worth giving up for Wholeness of Body.

The other two definitely aren't, though it's an interesting thought experiment. Maybe the first two could be new stances for Diamond Mind.

(Oh, and Enlightened is misspelled, by the way.)

**Temotei** · 2010-03-01, 12:45 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Haven

The Sense Magic class feature is actually a free Identify, limited to weapons or armor, with 10-minute instead of hour-long casting time. Not sure if it's worth giving up for Wholeness of Body.

The other two definitely aren't, though it's an interesting thought experiment. Maybe the first two could be new stances for Diamond Mind.

(Oh, and Enlightened is misspelled, by the way.)

Quite right.

**Book Wyrm** · 2010-03-01, 01:42 AM (ISO 8601)

Considering an Artificer's Monocle is only 1500 gp and allows 1 minute identification of any magical item for the price of a detect magic spell and 5 ranks in Know(Arcana) , I would definitely consider taking Wholeness of Body.

Though thats kinda not the point, since the "monk" still loses the ability to sense magic/identify, instead just shifting it onto any other caster in the party.

None of the other ones though. Bonuses to hit and initiative are much better.

**Eldan** · 2010-03-01, 06:28 AM (ISO 8601)

Quite true.
Let's see. Would starting with a higher bonus and giving it against all mind-affecting spells and effects help? What about more healing, or a use-activated fast healing for a few rounds, like the Warlock? I mean, they don't have to be identical to the monk abilities.

**Saintheart** · 2010-03-01, 09:52 PM (ISO 8601)

Personally, I always thought the monk's strongest combat options were Stunning Fist and Flurry of Blows. And those were mostly against lower-level opponents ... how about trading those out for some ACF features? Stunning Fist in particular is expensive in normal feat acquisition; why not trade out Quick to Act for Stunning Fist instead?

**playswithfire** · 2010-03-01, 10:27 PM (ISO 8601)

How about this for stunning fist?
Stunning Strike ACF
Level: 1st
Replaces: discipline focus(weapon focus), one maneuver known at first level (so you'd only know 5 instead of 6)
Benefit: You may expend a readied strike as a standard action to make an attack as if you had the stunning fist feat. You may use this ability once per day per initiator level.
Special: The Stunning Strike ACF counts as Stunning Fist to meet the prerequisites for feats and prestige classes

**Saintheart** · 2010-03-02, 01:31 AM (ISO 8601)

Hrrrrrm. I wouldn't lose maneuvers to get it, personally. My reasoning being: having a maneuver or stance is sometimes a prerequisite for higher maneuvers or stances. And I've got a feeling Stunning Fist tends to get less effective from the mid to higher levels, when that loss of the first level maneuver hurts a bit more.

Same comment applies for expending readied strike maneuvers to make the attack. Monks aren't confined to having unexpended maneuvers, so why should a martial adept be so? We've got a "max uses/day = IL", which matches the monk's limit anyway. Leaving it so you're also confined to readied strike maneuvers (IMHO) needlessly restricts the unarmed swordsage's versatility in combat -- if he runs out of readied maneuvers, he should still be able to StunFist as well... IMHO.

However, swapping it out for discipline focus (weapon focus) without anything more is a decent trade, since that feat is only a +1 enhancement. I think that's all you'd need.

Just my thoughts, and not with an exhaustive rundown of how balanced it might be.

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