Results 1 to 24 of 24
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    dspeyer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2008

    Default Iron Heart Surge limitations

    We've all heard of Iron Heart Surging the sun away, and obviously that's not RAI. There's a lot of genuine grey area, though. Here's my attempt to clean it up:

    Things IHS can never do:
    • Effect people besides yourself
    • Create or destroy physical objects
    • Restore injuries
    • Restore you to a state you have never had before
    • Change your location
    • Cancel something with the "instantaneous" duration
    • Cancel the natural aging process
    • Override the most fundamental physical laws (e.g. gravity)


    Conditions IHS can treat:
    • Cowering
    • Dazed
    • Dazzled
    • Energy Drained
    • Frightened
    • Nauseated
    • Panicked
    • Paralyzed (unless by ability damage)
    • Shaken
    • Sickened
    • Stunned
    • Turned
    • Ability penalties (from one source)
    • Fear Effects
    • Morale Effects
    • Disease


    Conditions IHS can't treat:
    • Ability Damaged
    • Ability Drained
    • Blown Away
    • Checked
    • Dead
    • Disabled
    • Dying
    • Entangled
    • Fascinated
    • Grappling
    • Knocked Down
    • Petrified
    • Pinned
    • Prone
    • Staggered
    • Unconscious
    • Domination
    • Hit point damage
    • Effects of ambush feats
    • Poison (though sometimes its effects can be IHSed, e.g. paralysis)
    • Transmutations
    • Swallowed Whole
    • Asleep


    Conditions IHS can treat under some circumstances:
    • Confused -- can be treated if you have the oportunity to act normally
    • Deafened or Blinded -- only if the direct result of a spell (e.g. Blindness/Deafness), not if the result of injury to eyes/ears or because of obstructions (e.g. Glitterdust)
    • Charmed or Suggested -- only if the character deduces the spell. Characters that routinely IHS in case they have been charmed lose this ability.
    • Exhausted or Fatigued -- only if inflicted by an outside force (e.g. waves of fatigue) or by circumstance (being awoken in the deepest part of a sleep cycle); not if the result of your own actions (e.g. inadequate sleep, rage).


    What did I miss? Other thoughts?
    Last edited by dspeyer; 2010-02-18 at 11:36 PM.
    Looking for a monster?

    Age of Wariors,, A Homebrew Sequel to Tome of Battle (see also the original thread, disciplines table and prestige class table)

    All My Homebrew

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Griffon

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    South Africa
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Heart Surge limitations

    I'd add that it can't change your age. "I've reached a new age category? IRON HEART SURGE!"

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Jakarta, Indonesia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Heart Surge limitations

    I think it's safer to just list all the things that it can do rather than things it can't simply because you'll never be done listing down ALL The conditions that you could possibly be in.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    dspeyer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2008

    Default Re: Iron Heart Surge limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by elliott20 View Post
    I think it's safer to just list all the things that it can do rather than things it can't simply because you'll never be done listing down ALL The conditions that you could possibly be in.
    I'll never be done listing all the things it can do either. I figured that by providing both lists, a DM could say "this new thing is most similar to..." and get an answer.
    Looking for a monster?

    Age of Wariors,, A Homebrew Sequel to Tome of Battle (see also the original thread, disciplines table and prestige class table)

    All My Homebrew

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Cespenar's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007

    Default Re: Iron Heart Surge limitations

    Surging Pinned, Stable and Staggered seems a little nonsensical, but otherwise it looks fine. Essentially, any DM with an average intelligence will rule IHS pretty much like this (most of it), but it's beneficial to have it written out, I guess.

    Besides, it's less like people misunderstand IHS and more like they'd like to create a meme out of it, I always thought.
    Last edited by Cespenar; 2010-02-16 at 11:14 AM.
    PbP Game Statistics:
    Spoiler
    Show
    (Updated 19.07.13)
    Games Joined: 53
    Games Dead: 50
    Games Successfully Finished: 0
    Partially Finished/TPK'd: 1


  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yora's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Germany

    Default Re: Iron Heart Surge limitations

    I think the list is pretty close to RAI.
    Spriggan's Den - Thoughts on RPGs and some of my personal creations.
    Ancient Lands - PF/d20 Sword & Sorcery campaign setting

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    HalfOrcPirate

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location

    Default Re: Iron Heart Surge limitations

    Why wouldn't it work against domination or fascination? A surge of willpower freeing you from hostile mental effects seems perfectly reasonable.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Iron Heart Surge limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysander View Post
    Why wouldn't it work against domination or fascination? A surge of willpower freeing you from hostile mental effects seems perfectly reasonable.
    I think the idea is that you have to take what amounts to a mental free action to get loose, and both of those prevent you from doing so. Which is why you also can't overcome Petrification, say. Charming is less restrictive, so if you realize that you MIGHT need a surge you can get loose.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    HalfOrcPirate

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location

    Default Re: Iron Heart Surge limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by Lapak View Post
    I think the idea is that you have to take what amounts to a mental free action to get loose, and both of those prevent you from doing so. Which is why you also can't overcome Petrification, say. Charming is less restrictive, so if you realize that you MIGHT need a surge you can get loose.
    Good point. You could probably still use it to resist domination as a readied action though.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    DracoDei's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Near Atlanta,GA USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Heart Surge limitations

    Go ahead and include "Swallowed Whole". You list "Poison (though most of its effects can be IHSed)" as something that can't be IHSed, and but also list ability drain and damage as things that can't be IHSed... do you mean that you can only prevent the "one minute later" stuff?

    Also, I would have thought that drain and damage to abilities would be something you COULD IHS, but I haven't thought it through very much.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2010-02-16 at 12:49 PM.
    Best homebrew:
    Running: Ruceeglaelsktinag IC OOC Active Map
    Power Rangers:"BIG TWIST!!" (working title) IC OOC Active Map:None.
    For everything else (including my homebrew) see: Full list of Homebrew.
    My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Boston, MA

    Default Re: Iron Heart Surge limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post

    Also, I would have thought that drain and damage to abilities would be something you COULD IHS, but I haven't thought it through very much.
    Damage seems ok. Drain seems more problematic just from a balance perspective. But since they aren't "conditions" in the sense that they don't have adjective forms for the general condition, I could see them as reasonably not being included. What should be very explicit is that it can't deal with ability burn. Any interpretation that allows that would just be unambiguosly broken,

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    HalfOrcPirate

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location

    Default Re: Iron Heart Surge limitations

    I think it should work on any condition affecting you with two caveats:

    1) It must have a duration of one round or more. Permanent effects can be removed, but not instantaneous ones like ability drain. Likewise lost hitpoints or ability damage is an instantaneous effect. Just because you heal on your own doesn't mean that hitpoint loss has a duration that ends. A "wound's duration" doesn't end, it's that your body fixes the damage.

    2) You must be in a condition to use the surge. So if you're put in temporal stasis, your mind has stopped and you can't decide to surge your way out of it.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    dspeyer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2008

    Default Re: Iron Heart Surge limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by Cespenar View Post
    Surging Pinned, Stable and Staggered seems a little nonsensical, but otherwise it looks fine.
    Oops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cespenar View Post
    Besides, it's less like people misunderstand IHS and more like they'd like to create a meme out of it, I always thought.
    Certainly a lot of these are clear, but there are some that could create confusion.
    Looking for a monster?

    Age of Wariors,, A Homebrew Sequel to Tome of Battle (see also the original thread, disciplines table and prestige class table)

    All My Homebrew

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    dspeyer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2008

    Default Re: Iron Heart Surge limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    You list "Poison (though most of its effects can be IHSed)" as something that can't be IHSed, and but also list ability drain and damage as things that can't be IHSed... do you mean that you can only prevent the "one minute later" stuff?.
    I skimmed the description too fast and thought they inflicted a temporary penalty. They actually do ability damage. Fixed.

    Though if a poison paralyzes you, that's IHSable.

    As for one-minute-later, I figure preventing that would mean physically removing the poison from your veins, so no.
    Last edited by dspeyer; 2010-02-16 at 02:40 PM.
    Looking for a monster?

    Age of Wariors,, A Homebrew Sequel to Tome of Battle (see also the original thread, disciplines table and prestige class table)

    All My Homebrew

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Brazil
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Heart Surge limitations

    You just need to remind the players that it only affects effects with a limited duration. IHSing the sun joke, for example, the sun's effect on creatures with light sensitivity NEVER ends. You can walk away from the area of effect, but the effect itself is not temporary. Natural aging too, is not temporary, you add aging effect upon aging effect (except aging applyed on you, like a ghost's thouch).

    In fact, I'd make it like this: You can use it as a mental immediate action. If you succeed, it is considered a full round action. If you fail, it counts as a standard action (you at least slow down if you are dominated, or at least lose the normal time when under any other effect).

    Member of the Hinjo fan club. Go Hinjo!
    "In Soviet Russia, the Darkness attacks you."
    My friend's quote: "Rogues not only have a lot more skill points, but sneak attack is so good it hurts..."
    Class variant:Fighter
    Fun Stuff:Mushrooms

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Orc in the Playground
     
    CTLC's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2010

    Default Re: Iron Heart Surge limitations

    i have to deal with the rules that limit iron heart surge?
    IHS!

    sorry, anywho, good list and much needed!
    cuniculus tepes leo caesar
    CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! YARN FOR HIS YARN THRONE! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL!

    Sajin Komamura avatar by me

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Terazul's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Heart Surge limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by Roderick_BR View Post
    You just need to remind the players that it only affects effects with a limited duration. IHSing the sun joke, for example, the sun's effect on creatures with light sensitivity NEVER ends.
    Technically it ends in about 5 billion years when the sun burns out, but otherwise correct. </silly>

    OnTopic: Good List! Effective! Saving so I don't have to dig through 5 lists of fixes.
    Last edited by Terazul; 2010-02-16 at 08:57 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Forever Curious's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Good question

    Default Re: Iron Heart Surge limitations

    You also forgot Gravity.

    "Falling damage? Iron Heart Surge!" Goodbye Material Plane
    Kaalia Verk avatar by Rauthiss.


  19. - Top - End - #19
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Shpadoinkle's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    The midwest.

    Default Re: Iron Heart Surge limitations

    The thing is that you MUST be able to move freely to initiate maneuvers. Thus it's impossible to IHS stuff like paralysis or Hold Person spells away, because you can't move.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Jakarta, Indonesia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Heart Surge limitations

    I thought that IHS was one of those maneuvers that is the exception to that rule, namely all you need is just the ability to take mental actions.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Draz74's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    San Diego
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Heart Surge limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by dspeyer View Post
    Conditions IHS can't treat:
    • Blinded
    • Checked
    • Entangled
    • Fascinated
    • Petrified
    • Domination
    • Effects of ambush feats
    • Transmutations
    • Asleep
    I disagree with these (some completely, some partially).

    Blinded, like you mentioned elsewhere in your post, should be curable if it's from certain sources.

    Breaking out of Entanglement, or being Checked by wind, or possibly even Petrified (if it's not permanent anyway) are the very essence of what I picture for Iron Heart Surge.

    Domination, I understand the argument, but ... it would just be so cool. I'd probably houserule that, if you're told to do something contrary to your nature that allows you an extra save against the Domination effect, you can use Iron Heart Surge instead of making the Will save.

    In spite of it being a mental effect that might keep you from thinking to Iron Heart Surge, Fascinated seems exactly like the sort of thing you should be able to "break out of." It's not like it's wholesale mental control like Domination. Likewise, I'd at least consider allowing someone to break out of Sleep, on the grounds that maybe they weren't really totally and completely Asleep, and IHS is great for throwing off the deep drowsiness something imposed on them.

    Ambush feats ... IHS shouldn't fix the gash in your thigh after you get Hamstrung, but it should let you tough it out and ignore the wound's speed reduction effect if the effect has a duration anyway.

    And why on earth have you put down a blanket item covering all Transmutations here?
    You can call me Draz.
    Trophies:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Also of note:

    Work on my homebrew system, CRE8, is still marching slowly onwards. I think I can see the light at the end of the tunnel -- an Alpha release -- in the distance now. Read my Design Goals here.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    dspeyer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2008

    Default Re: Iron Heart Surge limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    I disagree with these (some completely, some partially).

    Blinded, like you mentioned elsewhere in your post, should be curable if it's from certain sources.
    Oops, I'll fix that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Breaking out of Entanglement, or being Checked by wind, or possibly even Petrified (if it's not permanent anyway) are the very essence of what I picture for Iron Heart Surge.
    Entanglement and checking are physical surroundings. If you IHS out of entanglement, what happens to the vines? Do they slip to the ground? Tear into pieces? It doesn't make sense.

    As for petrified, that's turned to stone. Stone to flesh isn't a matter of morale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Domination, I understand the argument, but ... it would just be so cool. I'd probably houserule that, if you're told to do something contrary to your nature that allows you an extra save against the Domination effect, you can use Iron Heart Surge instead of making the Will save.

    In spite of it being a mental effect that might keep you from thinking to Iron Heart Surge, Fascinated seems exactly like the sort of thing you should be able to "break out of." It's not like it's wholesale mental control like Domination. Likewise, I'd at least consider allowing someone to break out of Sleep, on the grounds that maybe they weren't really totally and completely Asleep, and IHS is great for throwing off the deep drowsiness something imposed on them.
    The logic on all of these is that if you can't take actions, you can't use IHS.

    Drowsiness would be fatigue, which you can IHS (though there ought to be limits on that -- I'll add some.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Ambush feats ... IHS shouldn't fix the gash in your thigh after you get Hamstrung, but it should let you tough it out and ignore the wound's speed reduction effect if the effect has a duration anyway.
    If the tendon is severed, you can't move the joint that way. It doesn't matter how strong or tough you are. It's like pulling on a rope that's been cut.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    And why on earth have you put down a blanket item covering all Transmutations here?
    Because transmutations are major changes to physical things, and those are too big to undo this way. There aren't a lot of offensive transmutations anyway. In core, it's really just baleful polymorph, flesh to stone and maybe enlarge/reduce.
    Looking for a monster?

    Age of Wariors,, A Homebrew Sequel to Tome of Battle (see also the original thread, disciplines table and prestige class table)

    All My Homebrew

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    HalfOrcPirate

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location

    Default Re: Iron Heart Surge limitations

    I think non-instantaneous transmutations should be subject to IHS since they still have a duration. It makes sense too, you're using a surge of willpower to destroy the spell affecting you. It's just like getting a second will save that you automatically succeed on. So Baleful Polymorph is a clear yes.

    My question is, can you IHS your way out of a Magic Jar spell?

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Cespenar's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007

    Default Re: Iron Heart Surge limitations

    Hmm, just saw this one, IHS can purge disease but not poison? Why?

    Furthermore, Dazzled is a purely mechanical condition (overstimulation of the receptors and all that) and shouldn't be treatable by IHS.
    PbP Game Statistics:
    Spoiler
    Show
    (Updated 19.07.13)
    Games Joined: 53
    Games Dead: 50
    Games Successfully Finished: 0
    Partially Finished/TPK'd: 1


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •