Moral Oddity

[RandomNPC]

So the place where I work has this list, and everyone on the list chips in ten bucks a week when someone else on the list is on medical leave for three weeks or more, to help them out. I figure the list is a great way to help out, and it's not that often someone is out for three weeks at a time.

Well it turns out one of the guys has Crones disease, has had large portions of his intestines removed, and survives mostly on cheap pizza, wings, and drugs. Not wanting my ten dollars to be spent on illegal substances I asked to be removed from the list, knowing full well that I can't get back on it. When asked why I told people that my roof is leaking and unfortunately I need all the cash I can get. (Not a lie the roof is leaking, but not the reason either.)

Is it odd that I don't want to give my money to a drug addict, but I don't want people to know why? I feel conflicted about the deception, I know I probably saved his job by not telling the boss the guy's an addict, even with the job market as bad as it is I felt the urge to rat him out, but I told them another reason I need the money.

[Mando Knight]

TautologyMan to the rescue!

If he's doing something wrong, he's doing something wrong! If that includes using money that was given to him in good faith for illegal substances, you have the obligation to talk to somebody to fix this problem.

[Mangles]

Agreed but not with ratting him to the boss. Tell him the real reason why you removed yourself from the list. If he stops using this money for drugs than the problems solved and no one gets fired. If not than you can always take it further depending on your feelings than. If he kicks up a stink and tries to blame you for singling him out or something you can always bring up the real reason with everyone else then.

[billtodamax]

I'm going to suggest that you take this up with the person in question. If they respond negatively to your suggestions that they stop doing the activities in question, then take it up with someone else.

[CollinPhillips]

You should inform your boss. Not out of concern for the dude's well being, or your moral ethical dilemma. You should do it for fun!

[Dr.Epic]

So the place where I work has this list, and everyone on the list chips in ten bucks a week when someone else on the list is on medical leave for three weeks or more, to help them out. I figure the list is a great way to help out, and it's not that often someone is out for three weeks at a time.

Well it turns out one of the guys has Crones disease, has had large portions of his intestines removed, and survives mostly on cheap pizza, wings, and drugs. Not wanting my ten dollars to be spent on illegal substances I asked to be removed from the list, knowing full well that I can't get back on it. When asked why I told people that my roof is leaking and unfortunately I need all the cash I can get. (Not a lie the roof is leaking, but not the reason either.)

Is it odd that I don't want to give my money to a drug addict, but I don't want people to know why? I feel conflicted about the deception, I know I probably saved his job by not telling the boss the guy's an addict, even with the job market as bad as it is I felt the urge to rat him out, but I told them another reason I need the money.

Wizard's Second Rule: The greatest harm can result from the best intentions

Doing the right thing is what we should all strive for but you have to make sure those actions yield the results you want. Giving him money will probably result in him spending it on non-medical/non-injure related care. You can however still help this person: help that person out in non-monetary ways. You don't have to spend money to make someone's life easier.

[Runestar]

If this is the case, your group may want to consider spending the money for him, to ensure it is used wisely and appropriately. It will be more work than just mailing him the cheque though.

I am just curious how you found out though.

[Anuan]

If you don't inform the others of where their money is going, if they don't know that is, then all you've done is ensure that he gets ten dollars less for the drugs.
Inform.

[Zincorium]

Edit: redone post, first was a bit aggressive.

Alright, I see the situation you're in.

Here's what I would do:
-How exactly do you know that he is the type of person to spend your money on drugs? Is this hearsay, personal observation, or admitted? What you said is vague, is your knowledge firm on this point?

-Due to the situation he's in, is he simply self-medicating/incapable of taking better care of himself? Simply denying him the money isn't a solution to those, it's an attempt to wash your hands of the situation.

-How immoral is drug use on your personal scale, and why? You don't seem to empathize at all with this guy, is he a decent person otherwise? If he is, is his usage enough to condemn him?

-Most importantly, is this enough reason to get yourself taken off the list?


If you have good answers to all of those questions, I can't criticize you, but on first read this seems to lack empathy and grasp of this guy's situation.

[Deathslayer7]

Wizard's Second Rule: The greatest harm can result from the best intentions

Doing the right thing is what we should all strive for but you have to make sure those actions yield the results you want. Giving him money will probably result in him spending it on non-medical/non-injure related care. You can however still help this person: help that person out in non-monetary ways. You don't have to spend money to make someone's life easier.

*gives a cookie for referencing favorite books*

But yes. How do you know he needs the drugs and they aren't purely for medical reasons? I mean he did have his intenstines removed. I imagine he has some sort of painkiller and other stuff as well for it. How do you know that his drugs are the "bad" sort of drugs? I don't like playing the devil's advocate here but i'm just trying to show you that you might not be right in that he does "bad" drugs.

[Thajocoth]

You simply said "drugs". There's a lot of different things this could mean.

Are the drugs prescribed? Recreational? Abused? Hurting his life in any way? Helping his life in any way?

Are you even sure he's spending THIS money on these drugs?

Here are a few scenarios to consider:

A - Person has a lot of trouble eating. They smoke pot illegally to get themselves to eat.

B - Person has a damaged growth gland from a car accident. They take a prescribed steroid every day through puberty to grow, but it makes them a little irritable.

C - Person spends money on drugs that should be spent on other things, like food or their child's medical care.

D - Person shows up to important tasks, like work or driving, while under the effect of drugs, impairing their ability.

See how wide a range this is? I can't judge the morality even of his drug use, let alone what you could/should do here. It's not all black and white. And if you don't know the answers to these questions, don't say anything. It's better not to rock the boat than to risk having everyone think you're an insensitive jerk. If his drug use matches C or D, then yes, it's a problem. For C, the others spending their money should know. I'd just tell whoever runs the pool. For D, his boss should definitely know.

However... This pool is supposed to be for emergencies, right? Not for continual care, from the sound of it. It sounds like his condition is continuous. It's a little unfair for him to be getting the money every week. If I was in your shoes, this would be the reason I stopped being involved. It's not up to you to pay for someone else's continual care. And the way you handled leaving was the best. Yes, it's a lie, but that doesn't automatically make it wrong. Sometimes it's better to lie than to hurt someone.

[RandomNPC]

Note the way I use "meds" and "drugs".

Edit: redone post, first was a bit aggressive.

Alright, I see the situation you're in.

Here's what I would do:
-How exactly do you know that he is the type of person to spend your money on drugs? Is this hearsay, personal observation, or admitted? What you said is vague, is your knowledge firm on this point?

He's asked other people in the workplace to buy drugs for him, he's also buying some of his drugs from one of the other guys in his department, who can't keep his mouth shut. On top of that he's borrowing money once in a while to pay rent and makes more than I do, I've got a decent place to live. Insurance has covered his medical so it's not the legal meds draining his pocket.

-Due to the situation he's in, is he simply self-medicating/incapable of taking better care of himself? Simply denying him the money isn't a solution to those, it's an attempt to wash your hands of the situation.

Our insurance program gets him all the meds he needs, I don't agree with drugs and don't want my money going for drugs, but I know better than to push my moral code on others, he can if he want's I'm just not going to help him.

-How immoral is drug use on your personal scale, and why? You don't seem to empathize at all with this guy, is he a decent person otherwise? If he is, is his usage enough to condemn him?

I find any form of mind altering chemical quite offensive, down to the addictiveness of alcohol or ciggarettes. I try to avoid all I can, accepting myself as a hypocrite when it comes to caffeine.

-Most importantly, is this enough reason to get yourself taken off the list?

My main problem, and I'm glad you asked, is my unwillingness to tell my origonal reason for wanting off the list to my manager. My two reasons are he's an addict, and i need all the money I can get to fix my roof, all I told the boss was about my roof.

If you have good answers to all of those questions, I can't criticize you, but on first read this seems to lack empathy and grasp of this guy's situation.

It was past my bedtime when I first posted, and I am sorry for any confusion.

Edit: Thajocoth, he has no children, but otherwise C, I suspect but have no proof of D.

Edit Edit: The boss runs the pool, and he doesn't fail at doing his job, he's a bit slower than others but within reason. And the Pool is only for when you're out of work for 3 weeks. This is the first time he's been out for 3 weeks in the 4 years I've worked there.

[JoshuaZ]

What drugs?

For certain stomach ailments (such as some varieties of Crohn's) there are drugs which are approved in some locations but not others. Thus for example, it might be something that is valid in Canada but not the US. I in fact know at least one person who is in that category.

Second, you said you find using mind-altering substances "offensive." I'm inclined to ask whether offensive is the same as morally problematic. I can think of a lot of behavior I'd not want to be involved in that isn't morally problematic (For example I find most forms of reality TV offensive but not morally problematic).

Third, I'm curious if you would feel differently about a drug that was legal. Say you were living in an area where medicinal marijuana would be ok, would that change your position? If so, how can you claim that this is a moral concern.

To my mind, the question you may want to ask is given his illness (and make no mistake Crohn's disease and its variants are very serious illnesses) is what he is doing allowing him to cope? Even assuming that the drugs in question are some form of mind-altering drugs, if they allow the person to function when he would otherwise not be able to function then what is the moral (note not legal, but moral problem). Unless you're own alignment is Lawful Neutral, I'm failing to see what is intrinsically an issue in that context. And to be very clear, when you are in intense pain, you're mind simply cannot function. So even things you label as "mind-altering" might very well put the person in a state far closer to functionality.

[Rockphed]

I think you are doing the right thing. Mentioning that you don't think the program is actually achieving its goals is probably what I would have said were I in a similar situation and did not have something like a leaky roof to hide my true reasons behind. I might have said it anyway even if I did have a leaky roof to fix.

[Solaris]

If you don't inform the others of where their money is going, if they don't know that is, then all you've done is ensure that he gets ten dollars less for the drugs.
Inform.

/Thread.
Stupid 10-character limit. We can't all be Quincux!

[RandomNPC]

Ok, good points all around, I'll try to answer everyting thats been asked.

As to why I dislike mind altering drugs, not counting the legal trouble one can get into. They are mind altering, I see my mind as the core of who I am, all my thoughts, impulse control, decision making, everything. I see mind altering drugs as willingly altering the core of who you are. To be blunt, I've been understating my dislike of them quite a bit. As far as I know he has pain and everything under reasonable control with legal meds and the drugs are recreational.

As for the legality of them, I feel the same for Alcohol and Cigarettes, the chemicals that cause addiction is classified as mind altering, I could write pages on how I see it, so lets just say thats how I see it.

On the other three or four times I've seen the program go into effect I had no problem, and it does well, nowhere near a paycheck, but enough to help out. Most of the people in the shop know this guys doing these things, like I mentioned before he's asked others to buy him drugs.

I know he's getting only ten dollars less, but like I said before, I'm not trying to force my morals on others, I just don't want my ten dollars going for drugs.

[Godskook]

1.If the program is voluntary, it is voluntary. You're leaving, and understand the consequences for doing so. Nothing more needs to be said on the subject.

2.The question is this: Are you lying to save face for yourself or to keep a coworker from getting the axe? The former is something you'll probably regret someday, while the latter is kinda admirable.

3.Regardless of why you're lying, you're lying. There's a lot of negative feedback that can be had from this. It'd be better to refuse to give a reason, stating that it is 'personal'.

[Solaris]

2.The question is this: Are you lying to save face for yourself or to keep a coworker from getting the axe? The former is something you'll probably regret someday, while the latter is kinda admirable.

I disagree. Lying to help a pothead keep his job when he's stealing from other people is not admirable. Him taking the money meant for medical bills and blowing it on weed is, in fact, stealing.

[The Duke]

As I recall he stated he didn't lie. Just only gave one of his two reasons.

Regardless I don't believe that what your doing is wise such a program could benefit you in the future, and $10 a month isn't really that much. I would suggest giving your full reasons to your boss, you might feel bad about it, but if it's as well known as you say it is, perhaps he'd be willing to exclude you from this situation without being off the list altogether. No need to push your morals on others but you can see if there is a way that your morals can be allowed to work with the situation

[Solaris]

Not wanting my ten dollars to be spent on illegal substances I asked to be removed from the list, knowing full well that I can't get back on it. When asked why I told people that my roof is leaking and unfortunately I need all the cash I can get. (Not a lie the roof is leaking, but not the reason either.)

Is it odd that I don't want to give my money to a drug addict, but I don't want people to know why? I feel conflicted about the deception, I know I probably saved his job by not telling the boss the guy's an addict, even with the job market as bad as it is I felt the urge to rat him out, but I told them another reason I need the money.

I recall differently, but we're arguing semantics here. I think Random is doing himself and his coworkers a disservice by not making it better-known that the dude's got a drug problem and will most likely spend their money on drugs of the recreational variety.

[RandomNPC]

Duke is right, I didn't lie, I excluded the reason that might get him fired. There seems to be some confusion on the program so i'll outline it a little better.

We get paid every 2 weeks. When someone is out for three weeks or more for medical reasons we all chip in ten dollars, every week from then on, untill they return.

Solaris:
All his medical bills are covered under our insurance, minus the 20 dolar co-pay. The money is to replace the paycheck he will not get because he can't work. He's still spending it on drugs though.

I know there's workers comp. or uneployment, or something, but it only pays a percentage out, and our program doesn't make up the entire difference, it just helps make the gap in pay smaller.

Godskook:
1: Not giving money that will be spent on drugs is morally worth not having my name on the list, if i need medical leave someday I accept that i'm not on the list. I have no problem with that.
2:I kept half the reason out so the boss wouldn't fire him. If the job market was different I honnestly don't know if I would have said it differently or not.
3: It is a personal moral choice, and I told them about my roof leak because I was asked for a reason and it was the only truth I had that wouldn't get this guy (possibly) fired.

[The Duke]

I recall differently, but we're arguing semantics here. I think Random is doing himself and his coworkers a disservice by not making it better-known that the dude's got a drug problem and will most likely spend their money on drugs of the recreational variety.

While I may not agree with you on if he's lying or not. I do agree with this, you aren't doing yourself or anyone around you any favors by protecting him. While he's doing something you despise/dislike. Why shelter him it's his personal choice, it's against the law you could be doing worse. (Going to the Cops for example) However you should confront him before you act, despite overwhelming evidence perhaps there is an honest reason for it all.

(However I'm willing to be you want us to tell you what you did was the right thing, and are unlikely to change your mind as you want to do as you've said.)

[Copacetic]

I think you made an exceptional choice, Random. You removed your support from an activity you did not morally approve of, without anyone being hurt. Well done, sir.

[Solaris]

Duke is right, I didn't lie, I excluded the reason that might get him fired. There seems to be some confusion on the program so i'll outline it a little better.

We get paid every 2 weeks. When someone is out for three weeks or more for medical reasons we all chip in ten dollars, every week from then on, untill they return.

Solaris:
All his medical bills are covered under our insurance, minus the 20 dolar co-pay. The money is to replace the paycheck he will not get because he can't work. He's still spending it on drugs though.

I know there's workers comp. or uneployment, or something, but it only pays a percentage out, and our program doesn't make up the entire difference, it just helps make the gap in pay smaller.

Godskook:
1: Not giving money that will be spent on drugs is morally worth not having my name on the list, if i need medical leave someday I accept that i'm not on the list. I have no problem with that.
2:I kept half the reason out so the boss wouldn't fire him. If the job market was different I honnestly don't know if I would have said it differently or not.
3: It is a personal moral choice, and I told them about my roof leak because I was asked for a reason and it was the only truth I had that wouldn't get this guy (possibly) fired.

In my mind, concealing the truth is the same as lying. It's not necessarily wrong to lie, but in this case I do believe it is - or rather, less right than telling the full truth. That's not the important part, though. Like I said, semantics.

This part is: Way I'm seeing it, when you're concealing your real reason you're helping this guy take their money to burn on drugs. I agree you for withdrawing your money from the pool, but I think if you were to take it to your boss he might see things a little differently than he does now. You're shooting yourself in the foot by taking one for this guy.

[The Duke]

In my mind, concealing the truth is the same as lying. It's not necessarily wrong to lie, but in this case I do believe it is - or rather, less right than telling the full truth. That's not the important part, though. Like I said, semantics.

This part is: Way I'm seeing it, when you're concealing your real reason you're helping this guy take their money to burn on drugs. I agree you for withdrawing your money from the pool, but I think if you were to take it to your boss he might see things a little differently than he does now. You're shooting yourself in the foot by taking one for this guy.

Solaris essentially summed up my point excellently. However as I suggested talk to the guy first make sure you aren't making a mistake.

[Anuan]

Duke is right, I didn't lie, I excluded the reason that might get him fired. There seems to be some confusion on the program so i'll outline it a little better.

That's what we call 'Lying by omission,' brother.

Solaris has basically got what I want to say down already, so I'll leave it at that.

[Edric O]

I must say I am shocked by the number of people who object so strongly to something as inconsequential as a little omission. Do you always tell everyone the whole truth, including all details that might be relevant, whenever you are asked any question?

If not, then it's hypocritical to make such a big deal about something that isn't even technically a lie.

Personally, I believe very strongly in worker solidarity, and I don't see anything wrong with lying (or telling only part of the truth) to protect a co-worker from the boss. In fact, I think it is noble and praiseworthy to do so.

Of course, the situation is complicated by the fact that this co-worker is hurting himself through his addiction. Telling the boss is still bad, as it would just get your co-worker fired and probably make his drug problem worse. Taking yourself off the list is morally neutral (it doesn't help anyone, but doesn't cause any big harm either).

If you want to take more action in a morally good direction, my general advice is to do something that has a chance of persuading your co-worker to stop taking drugs. Other people have suggested confronting this guy directly - that may or may not be a good idea, depending on his personality.

[Solaris]

I must say I am shocked by the number of people who object so strongly to something as inconsequential as a little omission. Do you always tell everyone the whole truth, including all details that might be relevant, whenever you are asked any question?

If not, then it's hypocritical to make such a big deal about something that isn't even technically a lie.

Honestly? Yes. Particularly when I'm dealing with a situation wherein someone is stealing from others under the guise of asking for charity. I've always been blunt and open about the whats and the whys.

Personally, I believe very strongly in worker solidarity, and I don't see anything wrong with lying (or telling only part of the truth) to protect a co-worker from the boss. In fact, I think it is noble and praiseworthy to do so.

Solidarity is all well and good, but you can't be stupid about it. You're advocating standing by someone just to stand by him. Being your coworker does not automatically make him worthy of your support.

Of course, the situation is complicated by the fact that this co-worker is hurting himself through his addiction. Telling the boss is still bad, as it would just get your co-worker fired and probably make his drug problem worse. Taking yourself off the list is morally neutral (it doesn't help anyone, but doesn't cause any big harm either).

Telling the boss and getting him fired would not make the drug problem worse. The coworker would make the drug problem worse. He is, in fact, responsible for his own actions. Supporting his addiction would be morally wrong, and Random removed himself from the list because he did not want to support the addiction.

If you want to take more action in a morally good direction, my general advice is to do something that has a chance of persuading your co-worker to stop taking drugs. Other people have suggested confronting this guy directly - that may or may not be a good idea, depending on his personality.

This is all well and good. I agree, in principal, that trying to get the drug user to stop would be a good thing. However, Random has no real control over how this man will act. He cannot force the addict to stop being an addict. All he can do is stop supporting the habit and try to get others to do the same.

[Anuan]

Solaris has apparently stolen my brain...

[GoC]

I recall differently, but we're arguing semantics here. I think Random is doing himself and his coworkers a disservice by not making it better-known that the dude's got a drug problem and will most likely spend their money on drugs of the recreational variety.

You cannot know this. The person in question probably only spends a small portion of his income on drugs (this depends a lot on the type of drug, as the scale of addictive drugs ranges from cannabis to heroin).

stealing

It's not stealing unless the money has a specified purpose that is incompatible with recreational drugs. In this case the purpose is to compensate for the lack of paycheck. Him using it on drugs is no different (in terms of stealing/not-stealing) from him using it on a chocolate bar.