[3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

[Hyudra]

In keeping with the pattern established by Oslecamo, I'd rework it so that at first level, you get 'Blink Dog Body', which establishes your type as a magical beast, and would include some of the racials.

Natural armor should scale with stats rather than be a flat sum.

Not quite sure where you got the +wis and +dex values from (seems a bit steep), but I'm not good at deciphering the appropriate stat bonuses from the array in the monster entries.

[Darkholme]

Hmm. I like it, but generally racial levels are considered a *second* favored class, especially as they usually only go up a few levels.

I'd give them a real favored class, but that's about it.

Also, I figured out why I don't especially like Oslcamo's approach.

A CR 4 Monster isn't equivalent to 4 levels in a class, because a 4th level human is also a CR 4. A Human gets a free feet, and 23 free skill points (spread out), and a favored class of *any*. That's worth quite a bit, half a level at least. I believe the last point breakdown of racial abilities I've seen puts it at about 2/3 of a level. so a human with 4 class levels is worth almost 5 of the levels the way you've priced them, as they end up behind by about 1/5 to 2/3 of a level.

[Oslecamo]

Great job with the blink dog! I don't mind other persons doing the whole race+class thingy, I just don't have the time to do it myself. (plus, a blink dog that doesn't blink? What's exactly the atraction of that?)

I just feel like it should only give +1 to Dex at levels 1 and 2 (you'll notice that all my monsters but the gnoll give just +1 bonus per level, and the gnoll only gets it because it really has no special abilities whatsoever).

I also don't feel very confortable with dimension door/blink at will for just 2 levels investment. 1/day per HD as a free action should be strong enough already.


The Gynosphinx looks good as well, altough it needs to be tweaked as per Hyudra's sugestion.

Gonna twik and add them to the index when I get some more free time.

A CR 4 Monster isn't equivalent to 4 levels in a class, because a 4th level human is also a CR 4. A Human gets a free feet, and 23 free skill points (spread out), and a favored class of *any*. That's worth quite a bit, half a level at least. I believe the last point breakdown of racial abilities I've seen puts it at about 2/3 of a level. so a human with 4 class levels is worth almost 5 of the levels the way you've priced them, as they end up behind by about 1/5 to 2/3 of a level.

0-Humans get a free feat, not a free feet.
1-Humans are one of the strongest if not the strongest race out there.
2-My classes bonus already take in acount that you're sacrificing a race choice. That's why you get the gnoll with +4 str and combat skill equivalent to the ranger and the dragon with bard spellcasting, d12 HD, two good saves, several natural attacks, breath weapon and nat armor at level 1. Something like undead traits actualy counts as 1,5 levels.
3-Do not understimate the simple fact that you actualy become an actual outsider/magical beast/dragon/undead/construct. This alone makes you immune to lots of effects and then opens combo potential with stuff like alter-self.

So no, my monster classes shouldn't lag behind just because you can't cherry pick a race.

[Hyudra]

I was looking at doing one of my own (Possibly starting on the Giants), and I've got a question - Do size increases come with increases in natural attack damage?

The chart on page 1 doesn't seem to indicate any such increase, and the Gynosphinx starts with the same 1d6 base claw damage she finishes with (and got the okay from OP), but the Troll entry does state there's an increase in their base damage with Growth (start at 1d4, go to 1d6).

[Tinydwarfman]

I really like all of your work, particularly the Succubus, which I would like to use in an upcoming game. It seems too powerful though. It's like a really good PrC that you can enter at first level. Advancing casting completely just seems too good to me. Is there anything I'm missing?

[Oslecamo]

I was looking at doing one of my own (Possibly starting on the Giants), and I've got a question - Do size increases come with increases in natural attack damage?

Yes natural weapon attack is suposed to increase in size, should make a note to make that more clear.

Tinydwarfman:Yes you're missing something. the half-spellcaster monsters like the succubbus and mind flayer don't actualy give spells, but they make multiclassing with caster viable nonthless.

The succubbus for example. While you just take succubus level you gain no spells whatsoever, only the listed SLAs.

Now as the example given after picking 3 succubus levels you pick one sorceror level. You now have CL 4, knows one spell and one orison, have 3 second level spell slots and 1 first level spell slot

A pure sorceror 4 would have CL 4, know around a dozen orisons and spells, plus multiple first level and zero level spells slots.

Basically, when the succubus multiclasses it can jump right away for the higher level spells and cast them at full power, but has less spells know and per day than a true fullcaster.

[Hyudra]

Ok, then the Gynosphinx should start with two 1d4 + ½Str claw attacks, and move up to 1d6 + ½Str.

@AustontheGreat - it would help if you posted a new post instead of just editing your previous post & cluttering it. It's very hard to read (especially with the bright colors) and hard to tell what you've added since the previous post.

[Tinydwarfman]

Yes natural weapon attack is suposed to increase in size, should make a note to make that more clear.

Tinydwarfman:Yes you're missing something. the half-spellcaster monsters like the succubbus and mind flayer don't actualy give spells, but they make multiclassing with caster viable nonthless.

The succubbus for example. While you just take succubus level you gain no spells whatsoever, only the listed SLAs.

Now as the example given after picking 3 succubus levels you pick one sorceror level. You now have CL 4, knows one spell and one orison, have 3 second level spell slots and 1 first level spell slot

A pure sorceror 4 would have CL 4, know around a dozen orisons and spells, plus multiple first level and zero level spells slots.

Basically, when the succubus multiclasses it can jump right away for the higher level spells and cast them at full power, but has less spells know and per day than a true fullcaster.

Huh, I didn't see that. So if a succubus multiclassed into a sorc at 8th level, she would have 3 4th level spells per day, 1 3rd level, no lower spell slots, and would only know 1 spell that was 4th level? Complicated.

[Oslecamo]

AustontheGreat1: good idea to round it up, full Bab, good fort save and it's ready for the index.

[Kaishi]

If it hasn't been requested, can someone make a Velociraptor monster class? The creature can be found in Eberron Campaign Setting (it's called "Clawfoot").

Also, if you wouldn't mind doing a Klurichir (Fiend Folio demon).

[AustontheGreat1]

AustontheGreat1: good idea to round it up, full Bab, good fort save and it's ready for the index.

Awesome Opossum.

[Skeppio]

If you're still taking requests, I'd like to request monster class versions of the Psuedonatural Template (Lords of Madness) and the Half-Fey Template (Fiend Folio). Thanks in advance!

[Caen'ir]

Hello, if it's not too much trouble, I'd like to request the joystealer (MM4), ruin chanter (MM5), glaistig (MM3), and the frostwind virago (MM5). No rush on any of them, though, I'm patient. Keeping an eye on this thread, too.

[Lyndworm]

I've also been keeping an eye on this thread, and would love to see an Arrow Demon or Astral Stalker (both MM3) done up.

[Mystic Muse]

Slight nitpick. In the silver dragon entry the paralyzing breath doesn't state a duration between when you can use it again.

[Oslecamo]

Thanks for pointing it out, already corrected it!

Also hound archon added to the index for quite some time.

As for new monsters, well, quite busy with other stuff, so probably won't add anything new by myself untill August. But I haven't forgoten this project!

[Zaakar]

As for new monsters, well, quite busy with other stuff, so probably won't add anything new by myself untill August. But I haven't forgoten this project!

Neat. I'll keep an eye out. Will you make a new thread in August?

[Hyudra]

So I was looking at doing some of these myself, and noted the giants were on the list.

It's tricky though. Giants are, in large part, rather boring. If you look at the Hill Giant, it really doesn't have much going for it beyond the hit points, the size and the boulder toss.

That leaves the question: You can't just give it large size at first level, or it'll be a guaranteed one level dip. You can't give it boulder toss before it's large size, because that's kinda silly and goes against what the rules say. What class features do you give the brute?

[Oslecamo]

Zaakar:Probably not. I believe it's allright to update burrowed threads on the homebrew forum since a lot of projects fall deep and then are sudenly rised up again.

It's tricky though. Giants are, in large part, rather boring. If you look at the Hill Giant, it really doesn't have much going for it beyond the hit points, the size and the boulder toss.

Why do you think I didn't do a single one of them so far?

That leaves the question: You can't just give it large size at first level, or it'll be a guaranteed one level dip. You can't give it boulder toss before it's large size, because that's kinda silly and goes against what the rules say. What class features do you give the brute?

Well, this is where you should create minor custom abilities for the hill giant. Altough a medium sized hill giant is...well, an human. A muscled human. Eerr, rage?

Also he can't get large size before lv4, because the ogre will be a 3 level class granting large size.

[Volthawk]

Maybe give giants Powerful Build before Large size?

[Mythestopheles]

That leaves the question: You can't just give it large size at first level, or it'll be a guaranteed one level dip. You can't give it boulder toss before it's large size, because that's kinda silly and goes against what the rules say. What class features do you give the brute?

I'm thinking you could got the elemental route. Maybe give them minor earth related Spell-like abilities?

[Crafty Cultist]

That leaves the question: You can't just give it large size at first level, or it'll be a guaranteed one level dip. You can't give it boulder toss before it's large size, because that's kinda silly and goes against what the rules say. What class features do you give the brute?

Maybe you could give them some extra options, like the ability to trample or make sweeping attacks that can hit multiple opponents

[Oslecamo]

Maybe you could give them some extra options, like the ability to trample or make sweeping attacks that can hit multiple opponents

The problem is that those don't make much sense when you're still medium size. We're looking for something to fill the early levels.

[Volthawk]

The problem is that those don't make much sense when you're still medium size. We're looking for something to fill the early levels.

Like I said, powerful build? LA +1 races get it, so you should be able to slot it in early on.

[Mystic Muse]

If a Dragon got an HD increase but did not advance in the dragon class do the effects that rely on HD (such as their breath weapon or caster level) advance?

[Oslecamo]

If a Dragon got an HD increase but did not advance in the dragon class do the effects that rely on HD (such as their breath weapon or caster level) advance?

Yes. For all monsters actualy. One of the base ideas of my project is to make your abilities to keep growing even after you leave the monster class.

[Mystic Muse]

Yes. For all monsters actualy. One of the base ideas of my project is to make your abilities to keep growing even after you leave the monster class.

Okay, thanks.

[GenPol]

Gnoll

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HD:d8
{table]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|Feature
1|+ 1|+ 2|+ 2| +0 |Gnoll body, Path, +4 Str.
[/table]
Skills: 4+int modifier, quadruple at 1st level. Class skills are Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).

Proefeciencies:simple weapons, light armor, light and heavy shields.

Features
Gnoll body:At 1st level a gnoll loses all racial bonus it had and gains humanoid traits. He's a medium humanoid with base speed 30 and darkvision 60 foots.

Path: At 1st level the gnoll must choose one of the following paths.

Hunter:The gnoll gains proefeciency with one weapon of his choice (even exotic weapons), +1 Nat armor. The Nat armor bonus increases by an extra +1 for every 4HD of the gnoll. Once made those choices can't be changed.

In adition, the gnoll ignores armor and shield check penalty when using the hide and move silently skills.

Shaman:The gnoll chooses a fullcasting class (wizard, cleric, druid, ect) and gains spell slots, caster level and spell knowns as if he had one level of said class. This ability stacks with levels of said class, so a gnoll 1 who took the shaman path for wizard and then takes one level of wizard would cast as a wizard 2. The gnoll doesn't gain any other ability from the chosen fullcaster class like familiar or turn undead untill he actualy takes levels on that class.

Ability increase: the gnoll gets a permanent +4 to Str.

Comments:

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The gnoll is actualy a very vanilla monster. No special abilities whatsoever besides high str. +4 is much higher than all the other monsters, but he doesn't get any special abilities in return. Also it's Str, so it only really benefits melee dudes.

So not much to say here. You can either go caster or melee dude. Decent skill points, +1 BAB and two good saves don't hurt either.

Awesome, thanks a lot!

[Hyudra]

Hill Giant

Monster Class
Monster Manual/SRD

Class:

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HD: D8

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|

Special

1st|

+0

|

+2

|

+0

|

+0

|Hill Giant Body, Powerful Build, Str+1, Con+1

2nd|

+1

|

+3

|

+0

|

+0

|Crush, Str+1, Con+1

3rd|

+2

|

+3

|

+1

|

+1

|Smash, Pounding Footsteps, Str+1, Con+1

4th|

+3

|

+4

|

+1

|

+1

|Growth, Chuck Rock, Catch, Str+1, Con+1

5th|

+3

|

+4

|

+1

|

+1

|Pulverize, Trample, Str+1, Con+1

6th|

+4

|

+5

|

+2

|

+2

|Crash Through, I is Better, Str+1, Con+1

7th|

+5

|

+5

|

+2

|

+2

|Rampage, I is Bigger, Str+1, Con+1[/table]

Skills Points: (2+Intelligence Modifier) x 4
Class Skills: The Hill Giant’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Handle Animal (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis)

Proficiencies: The Hill Giant gains proficiency with simple weapons, light armor and medium armor.

Hill Giant Body: The Hill Giant loses all other racial bonuses and gains Giant traits, granting it low light vision. Hill Giants are initially medium sized creatures with a base movement speed of 30', possessing two natural slam attacks that deal 1d4 + Str mod in damage each, and natural armor equal to their Con mod. Hill Giants have Giant and Common as a starting language, with additional languages for a high intelligence score as normal.

Attribute Bonus: The Hill Giant gains +1 to Strength and +1 to Constitution with every level in the class, for a total bonus of +7 Str and +7 Con at 7th level.

Powerful Build: At first level, a Hill Giant gains Powerful Build, representing the disproportionate amount of strength that he can bring to bear. The physical stature of Giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever the Giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the Giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A Giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A Giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

Crush: At second level, the Giant gains a special benefit whenever he makes a bull rush. If the Giant's bull rush pushes an opponent into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, his momentum crushes him against the foe, dealing 2d6 bludgeoning damage for every HD the Giant has, plus twice his strength bonus.

Smash: At third level, the Hill Giant learns to leverage his strength against those punier than him. When the Giant connects with two natural slam attacks, two attacks with a two handed weapon or a single boulder attack in one round, his opponent must make a fortitude save or be dazed for one round. No enemy may be affected by this ability more than once a round, and the save DC for this ability is 10 + half the Giant's HD + his Str modifier. This ability works only on those of a smaller size than the Giant.

At 11HD, the ability triggers against any foe the Giant hits with one slam attack or one hit with a two handed weapon, and the DC increases by +2 if the Giant uses a Boulder to deliver the Smash effect.

Pounding Footsteps: The footfalls of the Giant carry him through undergrowth, rocky footing and hills alike. Starting at third level, the Hill Giant ignores difficult terrain, whether natural or magically created.

Growth: At fourth level, the Hill Giant finishes growing to large size but loses Powerful Build. His reach, grapple modifiers, natural attack damage and skills change accordingly, but he doesn't gain any ability score bonuses or penalties. His base movement speed increases by 10' (This movement boost occurs again at 12HD and 20HD, as the giant increases in size again).

Most Hill Giants lead lives that are poor, nasty, brutish and short. Those who do not meet an early demise continue to grow:
At 8HD, the Hill Giant reacquires Powerful Build, granting partial benefits of Huge size.
At 12HD, the Hill Giant grows to Huge size and loses Powerful Build.
At 16HD, the Hill Giant reacquires Powerful Build, granting partial benefits of Gargantuan size.
At 20HD, the Hill Giant grows to Gargantuan size and loses Powerful Build.

Chuck Rock: At fourth level, the Hill Giant may begin throwing boulders or other large objects. Boulders are simple weapons that deal 2d6 damage when small, with damage increasing a step with every size category, as normal.

A giant of at least Large size can hurl rocks weighing 40 to 50 pounds each (Small objects) as thrown weapons with a range increment of 120', with a maximum range of 600'. A Huge giant can hurl rocks of 60 to 80 pounds (Medium objects). A Gargantuan giant can hurl rocks of 90 to 120 pounds (large objects). Inanimate objects of similar size and heft may be substituted, but the Giant loses the racial bonus to attack rolls and has the range increments and maximum range halved in distance.

Catch: At fourth level, a giant that would normally be hit by a rock can make a Reflex save to catch it as a free action. The DC is 15 for a Small rock, 20 for a Medium one, and 25 for a Large one. (If the projectile provides a magical bonus on attack rolls, the DC increases by that amount.) The giant must be ready for and aware of the attack in order to make a rock catching attempt.

Pulverize: At fifth level, the Giant's slam attacks, thrown boulders and attacks delivered with two handed weapons pulverize the target. The Giant deals +1d6 damage for every consecutive attack of the same type against the target. For example, if the Giant connected with a thrown boulder in the previous round, he would deal +1d6 damage if he struck the foe with another boulder. If he connected in the round that followed that, you would deal +2d6 damage, and so on. This accumulates to a maximum of 1d6 damage per HD (ie. 5d6 at 5HD) This damage for each successive attempt increases by 1d6 at 7HD and every 3HD thereafter. For example, a 7HD Giant would deal 2d6 damage on the second consecutive hit, 4d6 on the third, and so on.

Trample: At fifth level, as a full-round action, The Giant can move up to twice his speed and literally run over any opponents at least one size category smaller than itself. The Giant merely has to move over the opponents in its path; any creature whose space is completely covered by the Giant’s space is subject to the trample attack. If a target’s space is larger than 5 feet, it is only considered trampled if the Giant moves over all the squares it occupies.

A trample attack deals bludgeoning damage (the Giant’s slam damage + 1½ times its Str modifier).

Trampled opponents can attempt attacks of opportunity, but these take a -4 penalty. If they do not make attacks of opportunity, trampled opponents can attempt Reflex saves to take half damage.

The save DC against the Giant’s trample attack is 10 + ½ creature’s HD + Giant’s Str modifier. The Giant can only deal trampling damage to each target once per round, no matter how many times its movement takes it over a target creature.

Crash Through: At sixth level, the Hill Giant can combine Trample and Bull Rush actions to crush someone even when others would stand in his way. To do this, he make a trample attack as normal, that ends with the giant moving into an opponent's space. Foes between the Giant and the target are trampled, and may elect to make a saving throw to dodge or make an attack of opportunity, as normal. Provided the Giant reaches his destination, he may then continue his movement to make a bull rush, though he cannot move a total distance further than twice his movement.

In addition, the Giant may use Crash Through to penetrate doors, walls and other solid obstacles. He deals double damage (double your slam damage + 3x his Str bonus) to any obstacles that bar his path. Provided he does at least 25 points of damage for masonry walls and 15 points of damage for wood (after accounting for hardness), he may continue your movement as though he were unimpeded.

At 12HD, the Giant may use this effect to break through barriers made of force, provided he does at least 35 damage in one blow, shattering the effect if successful.

I is Better: The Hill Giant, starting at sixth level, gains advantages learned from fighting on the hills that are his namesake. When delivering melee or ranged attacks against opponents who are on lower ground relative to the Hill Giant, the Hill Giant increases his critical threat range by one (ie. from /20 to 19-20, or 19-20 to 18-20) applied after and stacking with keen effects. His critical hit damage multiplier also increases by one (ie. from x2 to x3 or x3 to x4).

Rampage: Starting at seventh level, the Hill Giant can devastate the rank and file of the puny. If the Hill Giant deals enough damage to bring a creature smaller than him to 0 hitpoints or less, he may take a 5' step and make another standard action.

I is Bigger: The seventh level Hill Giant is capable of convincing himself that tricks of perspective really do mean the enemy is smaller than him. As such, when the Hill Giant is dealing with any opponent on lower ground relative to him, that foe is counted as being one size category smaller. This pertains only to rolls and interactions made between that foe and the Hill Giant.

Comments:

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Ok, so this is mostly a rough draft. It's filled with abilities, but some (Pounding Footsteps, Catch Rock, Pulverize) aren't going to impact most encounters. My aim is to gauge responses to the various abilities and maybe trim some off at a later point. I tried to emphasize the 'giant' feel with ability names and flavor.

I have a sneaking suspicion that melee monsters (such as Troll, and our Hill Giant here) are disadvantaged because of their inability to make iterative attacks. To those ends, I gave the Hill Giant some more oomph via. Smash, to the point where he's not a foe you want to go into melee against.

Took Volthawk's suggestion of Powerful Build, but that got complicated with the true size category change. Since it was awkward to work with, I figured 'to hell with it' and ran with the concept, to help make the changes in size a little more fluid.

Changelog:

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July 10th, 2010:

• Changed Thrash from offering a +1 to hit and rerolls for damage when on higher ground.

July 18th, 2010:

• Added 6th & 7th levels, with Crash Through and Thrash.

May 26th, 2010:

• Noted under 'Ability Score Increase' the total bonuses for the Giant.

May 12th, 2010:

• Fixed fort save (was 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, IIRC).
• Reverted BAB from full to medium.
• Changed natural armor from '¾ HD' to Con mod.
• Added light and medium armor proficiency.
• Added 2nd slam attack.

March 2nd, 2011:

• Updated Changelog to look tidier.
• Picture replaced, as the old one wasn't loading consistently.
• Reformatted the entire entry to match with current standards. (table tidier, headings in bold rather than italics, and removed the constant references to 'you', which were mixed up with references to 'his' and 'they'. Now pretty consistently uses 'his' throughout, minus the Hill Giant Body, which speaks about Hill Giants in general terms (they, their, etc.).
• Smash tweaked to apply daze rather than stun, which makes it a little less devastating but more consistent, which is good. It no longer applies daze if you land just one melee hit on a smaller target, instead requiring you to land two hits on one foe with a slam or a 2H weapon, or to hit with a boulder (this also gives a better reason to use both slams and boulders, and prevents awkwardness with dazing/stunning by way of AoO) It now advances at 11HD to ease things up for the Giant again (by that point, you're fighting more large/huge/gargantuan foes).
• Tidied up growth text.
• Clarified about range increments in Chuck Rock (they were conspicuously absent, with just the maximum range listed). Similar clarifications about the throwing of non-boulders using the ability, which previously said that the range was halved, but didn't get into range increments or any of that.
• Removed Thrash, which was an underwhelming capstone, but the mechanics of it are preserved in the sixth ability, "I is Better".
• Added the abilities Rampage and "I is Bigger" to seventh level. The former lets the Hill Giant be more creative with a cleave-like trigger, while the latter is a size category shift that rewards the Hill Giant even more for fighting on hills/higher ground.

Further Changes, March 2nd, 2011:

• Fixed capitalization error in table.
• Fixed ambiguous wording in proficiencies.
• Made use of Str mod / Con mod more consistent in capitalization and abbreviation of 'mod' vs. 'modifier'
• Pounding Footsteps: clarified that it functions in magically altered terrain.
• Chuck Rock: Clarified boulder damage as 2d6 for small rocks, increasing with size as normal.
• Pulverize: Made it scale, +1d6 damage per successive hit at 7HD and every 3HD thereafter. Gave example to make it as clear as possible.
• I is Better: Clarified the advancement to crits and stacking.
• I is Bigger: Added text to stress that it only pertains to interactions between the Hill Giant and foes.
• Thanks to Psyborg for the feedback that led to this particular changelist.

[Draken]

Your BAB and Fortitude saves look wrong. BAB looks to be 3/4, which means it should remain +3 at level 5. Fortitude save should have been +4 instead of +5 at level 5 as well, but that is quite the common mistake I think.