[3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

[flabort]

missing table tag in Planetouched.

Can the same abilities be selected twice? (Earth subtype x3, for example, to deal 1.5xHD acid damage with each attack) could be abuseable.

And although +1 to any two stats is not a bad or abuseable bonus, it's possibly a little much for a single level class.

I could be wrong about the last one, though.

[Gorgondantess]

missing table tag in Planetouched.

Can the same abilities be selected twice? (Earth subtype x3, for example, to deal 1.5xHD acid damage with each attack) could be abuseable.

And although +1 to any two stats is not a bad or abuseable bonus, it's possibly a little much for a single level class.

I could be wrong about the last one, though.

No, they can't be selected twice. And the gnoll has +4 to strength: I think +2 to stats shouldn't be too bad.
I balanced this against the lesser aasimar: it gains +4 total to stats, a 3rd level spell as an SLA, 3 resistances at 5, and 2 +2 skill bonuses, as well as getting actual class features. This gets outsider type, some more versatility, and scales better, though it loses class features. I think it works.

[flabort]

Great work, then.
I can see myself playing a melee type with fire subtype, natural armor, and 2 claws. or if I got claws elsewhere, I'd get fire resistance. I'd probably take +2 con...

usefull, versitile, great class.
One last question:
Is there a way to increase uses of domain SLA? once per day isn't much, especially for elemental domains...

[Gorgondantess]

Great work, then.
I can see myself playing a melee type with fire subtype, natural armor, and 2 claws. or if I got claws elsewhere, I'd get fire resistance. I'd probably take +2 con...

usefull, versitile, great class.
One last question:
Is there a way to increase uses of domain SLA? once per day isn't much, especially for elemental domains...

Personally, I like it as is. You have a large pool of spells to choose from, but it's only once per day: your versatility greatly increases when you can cast 2 a day.
But I suppose I can work it.

Also, thanks!

[Mystic Muse]

Next monster. Not complete but you guys helped me before and I figure you can again.
The Styx dragon Source, Draconomicon.



class

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{TABLE]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feature
1 | +1 | +2|+0 |+2 |Stygian Body, Styx adaptation,Arcane blood
2| +2| +3|+0 |+3 | Keen senses, Stygian Breath
3| +3| +3|+1| +3| Blindsense 60 feet, Strength +1, Constitution +1
4| +4| +4| +1|+4 | Styx Dragon SLAs, +1 Charisma
5| +5| +4| +1| +4| Burrow, improved breath weapon, improved tail blades
6| +6| +5|+2 |+5 | Styx dragon SLAs, +1 Charisma
7| +7| +5| +2| +5|,Constrict, Improved grapple, diseased tail blades +1 strength, +1 Constitution
8| +8| +6| +2| +6| Growth, Styx dragon SLAs +1 Charisma
9| +9| +6|+3 |+6| improved grab +1 Strength, +1 Constitution
10| +10| +7|+3 |+7 | improved breath, Styx dragon SLAs, +1 Charisma
11| +11| +7| +3|+7 | Stygian Scales, Stygian influence.
12| +12| +8| +4|+8 | Frightful presence. Growth, +1 Strength, +1 Constitution,
13| +13| +8| +4| +8|+1 Charisma
14| +14 | +9| +4| +9|Stupefying breath, +1 strength +1 Constitution
15| +15 | +9| +5| +9| Disease ascension
16| +16 | +10| +5| +10| Styx dragon SLAs, +1 Charisma
17| +17| +10| +5| +10| Stygian bite +1 Strength, +1 Constitution
18| +18| +11| +6| +11| +1 charisma
19 | +19| +11| +6| +11|Growth, +1 strength, +1 Constitution
20| +20| +12| +6| +12 |Disease perfection.
[/table]

4 Skill points+int per level, quadruple at 1st level. Class skills: Concentration, climb, jump, spot, listen, appraise, bluff, intimidate, Knowledge(any), spellcraft.


Proficiencies: a Styx dragon isn't proficient with any armor or weapons, besides his own natural weapons

Stygian Body: The Styx dragon loses all other racial bonuses, and gains Dragon traits, Bite 1d8 damage, 2 tail blades for 1d8 damage each, (They are secondary attacks and both are seperate attacks) a 40 foot base land speed which starts increasing by 10 every hit dice after its fourth and medium size. In addition, the Styx dragon gains a swim speed that remains equal to the base land speed (So at tenth level, both its land and swim speed will be 100 feet) The tail blades only add your strength modifier to damage until level 5 at which point it becomes 1 and a half strength modifier

The Styx dragon's arms are vestigial and cannot be used for any purpose.

The Styx dragon also gets a natural armor bonus equal to his Constitution modifier. Whenever the Styx dragon grows one size category, his natural armor increases by a further 1.

Styx Adaptation:Ex The Styx dragon has complete immunity to poisons and diseases, magic or mundane. In addition, the dragon can breathe in water, Is not hampered in combat by being in an aquatic environment, and is immune to the harmful effects of the river Styx and cannot be affected by the disease ascension or disease perfection abilities of other Styx dragons.

Arcane Blood: A Styx dragon receives spells known and spells per day as a bard of same level, but he casts as a sorcerer and takes his spells known from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

If it multiclasses as a bard it's spellcasting increases as a bard.
If it multiclasses as a sorcerer it counts as already having sorcerer casting depending on it's dragon level, as shown on the following table.

{table]Dragon level | Virtual sorcerer casting
1|-
2|1
3|2
4|3
5|4
6|5
7|6
8|6
9|7
10|8
11|8
12|9
13|10
14|10
15|11
16|12
17|12
18|13
[/table]

So for example a dragon 2 who takes a level of sorcerer would count as already having 1 level of sorcerer and gains the spell slots and spell knowns that a sorcerer gains when leveling from level 1 to 2, but not the spell slots and spell knowns from the 1st level of sorcerer He would get the familiar ability, but dragon levels wouldn't count for it.

A dragon 18 who takes a level of sorcerer would count as having 14 levels of sorcerer(13+1) and gain the spell slots and spell knowns that a sorcerer gains when leveling from level 13 to 14, but not the spell slots and spell knowns that a sorcerer gets from level 1 to 13, He would get the familiar ability, but dragon levels wouldn't count for it.

His Caster level remains equal to his full HD when multi-classing to sorcerer

If a dragon takes a casting PRC, it may choose to advance his casting as that of a sorcerer So a dragon 10/loremaster 10 would cast as a 18th level sorcerer (he would still receive spell slots and spells knowns from a bard 10 from the first 10 dragon levels and then the spell slots and spell knowns from a sorcerer 11-18 for the loremaster levels)

Keen Senses:Ex At second level, the Styx dragon's senses become far stronger. The Styx dragon sees four times as well as a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision out to 120 feet

Stygian Breath:Su At second level the Styx dragon gains a breath weapon. The breath weapon is a 60 foot line dealing 1d6 acid damage/HD, with a reflex save DC of 10+1/2 HD+Constitution modifier for half and takes 1d4 rounds to recharge. The line increases by 10 feet for every extra hit die the dragon gains. In addition, at 5th level the damaging effects of the line cling to enemies. The next round the acid deals half the damage it dealt the previous round. At tenth level it affects them again dealin one quarter the damage it originally dealt.


Styx dragon SLAs: At 2nd level the Styx dragon can cast curse water/bless water 1/day for each HD, At 6th level he can cast Stinking cloud and deeper darkness 1/day for every 2 HD, at 8th level he can cast contagion and control water 1/day for every 3 HD, at 10th he can cast hold monster mind fog and feeblemind 1/day for every 4 HD and at 16th he can cast Horrid wilting and summon monster 8 1/day for every 5 HD. These spells do not affect the dragon's alignment in any way.

Blindsense:Ex At third level the dragon gains Blindsense as the normal ability, range 60 feet.


Burrow At 5th level the Styx dragon gains a burrow speed equal to its base land speed.

Diseased Tail blades:Ex At seventh level anybody who is hit by the tail blades must succeed on a Fortitude save equal to the Dragon's breath weapon save or contract a disease of the player's choice. The player must choose once he gets this ability and the ability cannot be changed after this. There are several diseases on Page 292 of the dungeon master's guide or they can choose Stygian wasting from Draconomicon.

Improved grapple at 7th level the Styx dragon gains the improved grapple feat regardless of whether or not they meet the prerequisites.

Constrict.Ex At seventh level, after the Styx dragon makes a successful grapple check, it can make a constrict attack. The constrict attack deals twice the tail blade's damage as bludgeoning damage.


Growth:At 8th level the Dragon grows to large size. At 12th he grows to huge and at 19th he grows to gargantuan. His AC, bonus to hit, base damage, grapple and skills change accordingly, but he doesn't get any ability score bonus or penalties.


Improved Grab:Ex At 9th level the Styx dragon gains the improved grab extraordinary ability. To use this ability a Styx dragon must hit an enemy that is at least one size category smaller than him with his tail blades attack. The dragon can immediately make a Grapple check and if it's successful can use it's constrict ability in the same turn.


Stygian scales:Ex At 11th level the Styx dragon gains DR/magic and good equal to half its total HD and SR equal to its total HD plus 11


Stygian influence: Ex After swimming through the river Styx for centuries the planes they swim through have affected the dragon's attacks. At 12th level The Dragon can now bypass any form of damage reduction that can be bypassed by any evil alignment as if their weapons were attuned to that alignment.


Frightful Presence:Ex at 12th level the dragon gains frightful presence. ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks or charges. Enemies within a radius of 30 feet × half the dragon's level are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the dragon. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Will save (DC 10 + ½ dragon’s HD + dragon’s Charisma modifier) remains immune to that dragon’s frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. Dragons ignore the frightful presence of other dragons.


Stupefying breath:Su At 14th level the dragon gains an additional breath weapon. The breath is a cone with a radius of 30 feet+5 feet per HD of the dragon and deals 1 intelligence damage for every 4 HD of the dragon. The damage can be halved with an appropriate fortitude save of DC10+Con Mod+Half its HD. The breath weapon recharges in 1d4 rounds.

disease ascension Su: At 15th level, the dragon can now bypass immunity to disease derived from class features (Such as the Paladin's divine health) and any ability not derived from a creature's type. However, Styx dragons cannot affect each other with this ability. In addition, the damage die for both Stygian wasting and devil chills increase by one die size.

Stygian bite At level 17 the Styx Dragon's bite is a weapon to be feared. The Dragon can now channel its Stupefying breath weapon into its bite attack to be used along with it. This still counts as a use of the breath weapon and you must wait 1d4 rounds before using the breath weapon in any way shape or form again. Channeling the breath weapon is a swift action.


Disease perfection Su: At 20th level, the Styx dragon's affinity for disease has reached it's peak. From this point on, the dragon's disease based abilities* affect even those normally immune to them. The dragon now bypasses any immunity derived from type, race, class, or anything else besides being a Styx dragon. Styx dragons are still immune to each other's diseases. In addition, anything that is not normally immune to disease receives no save and the saves on the disease are now equal to the save of the dragon's breath weapon.

*The abilities that disease ascension and perfection apply to are the dragon's tail blades, its SLAs, and any spells it can cast due to the class.

In addition to the features described herein, there are new feats to enhance the Styx dragon's disease based abilities. (Credit to Hyudra)


Extraordinary Disease [Monstrous]

Your disease works in a manner above and beyond that of other creatures of your type.
Prerequisite: A natural weapon that can transmit disease, 13 Con and 6HD, at least one of which must be a level in a monster class.
Benefit: Choose one of the following from the list to enhance your poison:

Spoiler

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• Pathogen: Each time the victim fails a save against the disease (including the initial save to find if the disease was contracted), the DC is increased by +2.
• Rapid Onset: The Disease now has an incubation period of 1d3 rounds. This may be taken a second time, reducing the incubation period to 1d3-2 rounds.
• Scourge: The victim must save against the disease twice as often (ie. from every 24 hours to every 12 hours). This option may be taken multiple times, halving the amount of time the victim must save each time it is taken. (from 24 to 12, 12 to 6, 6 to 3, and so on).
• Fever: Once the poison enters the victim's system, the victim displays a rapidly progressing fever. From the point the victim fails the saving throw up until the time the disease is removed, the victim is Fatigued. Once the disease is incubated, the victim must make a fortitude save on any given hour or Exhausted, instead. (DC is 10 + ½ creature's HD + creature's Con)
• Systemic Shock: When an opponent fails their save against disease, they are immediately sickened. Further, if the disease affects physical stats, the creature must make another fortitude save or be nauseated for 1d4 rounds, and if the disease affects mental stats, the creature must make a will save or be confused for 2d3 rounds. The DC for both saves isis 10 + ½ creature's HD + creature's Con.
  Once the disease has incubated, the victim must save or be nauseated/confused (again, as appropriate to the disease) on any given hour.
• Miasma: After a disease has finished incubating, a contagious vapor begins leaking out of their nose and mouth to taint the air around them. The disease effectively becomes inhalation and contact based, transmitted with the victim themselves as the origin point. Any infections transmitted in this way have the traits of the original disease, but with only a 50% chance the new victim will also show signs of the miasma.
  1d3 rounds after a victim afflicted with Miasma dies, the miasma begins consuming their body, filling all adjacent squares with the inhaled version of the disease.
• Blight: The disease becomes potent enough to affect targets that are normally immune, as the individual elements in the disease produce byproducts that consume, occlude or taint even inanimate matter or energies. The Disease can now affect any creature that cannot produce the disease itself, including those creatures that are typically immune or that lack constitution scores. The effects of the poison are halved when affecting such opponents, rounding down. Diseases that would deal Con damage to creatures with no Con score deal Cha damage instead.

Special: This feat may be taken multiple times, choosing a different option each time (or choosing options that specifically allow multiple instances).

[Gorgondantess]

Well, swim+burrow is almost as powerful as flight. The general rule of thumb is, if it doesn't have the class abilities to compare to a class of similar level, up the ability increases/framework: for example, I could see the styx dragon having good reflex saves, and even 6+int mod skill points.
Also, it eventually goes beyond a 20 CR creature: give it 20 class levels. Give it a final growth up to gargantuan. You also neglected to give it DR: magic or good starting at lower levels, upgraded to magic and good later on, equal to 1/2 HD, would be nice.
As for the stupefying gas, I'd say 1/2 HD would be nice... ooh, wait, it lets them have a fort save: in that case, make it intelligence damage equal to HD. Seems brutal, but let's look at a single wizard spell, ray of stupidity:
Levels 3-6: average 3.5 intelligence damage
Levels 7-10, can empower: average 5 intelligence damage
Levels 11+, can have an empowered ray of stupidity followed by a quickened: average 8.5 intelligence damage

As you can see, the wizard generally gets a few less damage than the dragon would, but this is balanced by the fact that the wizard uses a ranged touch attack, which is more powerful than a fort save, thus delivering it more reliably. The dragon can use it more, but the wizard has more versatility; the dragon does it in an area, but really, I wasn't pulling out all the shots, what with split ray, easy metamagic, possible incantatrix, and maybe it's a sorcerer and is pulling out greater arcane thesis/spellsurge. So, I think it works. In fact, it's much less powerful than a ray of stupidity wizard: the things it would turn into a vegetable (i.e. stuff with low intelligence) generally have good fort saves.

[Frog Dragon]

Ooh, Styx Dragon. Gorgon said most that is to be said, but can you give it anything at level 18? It just looks so boring...

[Frog Dragon]

Who wants Yugoloth?

Nycaloth

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HD: d8

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|

+1

|

+2

|

+0

|

+2

|Nycaloth Body, Wings: Glide, Yugoloth Magic (Darkness)

2nd|

+2

|

+3

|

+0

|

+3

|Yugoloth, +1 Con, Cursed Wounds: Bleed

3rd|

+3

|

+3

|

+1

|

+3

|Powerful Build, +1 Str

4th|

+4

|

+4

|

+1

|

+4

|Improved Grab, Invisibility, +1 Con, Cursed Wounds: Weaken

5th|

+5

|

+4

|

+1

|

+4

|Wings: Flight, +1 Str

6th|

+6/+1

|

+5

|

+2

|

+5

|Growth, Deeper Darkness, Cursed Wounds: Drain, +1 Con

7th|

+7/+2

|

+5

|

+2

|

+5

|Liftoff, +1 Str

8th|

+8/+3

|

+6

|

+2

|

+6

|Greater Invisibility, Cursed Wounds: Stun, +1 Con

9th|

+9/+4

|

+6

|

+3

|

+6

|Wings: True Flight +1 Str

10th|

+10/+5

|

+7

|

+3

|

+7

|Multi-Armed, Teleport, Cursed Wounds: Savage, +1 Con[/table]

Proficiencies
The nycaloth has proficiency in all simple and martial weapons and light armor and medium armor.

Skill Points: 4+Int
Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise , Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Tumble, Use Magic Device

Nycaloth Body
The Nycaloth loses all previous racial and gains the outsider traits (Darkvision 60ft, no need to eat or sleep). It gains a natural armor bonus equal to it's con modifier, and two claw attacks that deal 1d4+str damage each. It also gains a land speed of 40ft per round.

Ability Bonuses
The Nycaloth gains a +1 to Str at levels 3, 5, 7 and 9 (Total +4). It also gains a bonus to Con at levels 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 (Total +5).

Wings
Glide: A nycaloth can use its wings to glide, negating damage from a fall from any height and allowing 20 feet of forward travel for every 5 feet of descent. Nycaloths glide at a speed of 30 feet with average maneuverability. Even if a nycaloth's maneuverability improves, it can't hover while gliding. A nycaloth can't glide while carrying a medium or heavy load.
Flight:When a nycaloth reaches its fifth nycaloth level, it gains a fly speed of 30 feet with average maneuverability. A nycaloth can't fly while carrying a medium or heavy load or while fatigued or exhausted.
A nycaloth can safely fly for a number of consecutive rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum 1 round). it can double this length of flight but is fatigued by such exertion. The nycaloth is likewise fatigued after spending a total of more than 10 minutes per day flying. Because a nycaloth can glide before, after, and between rounds of actual flight, it can remain aloft for extended periods, even if it can only use flight for 1 round at a time without becoming fatigued.
True Flight: When the nycaloth gains its ninth nycaloth level, it can fly at a speed of 30ft+10ft per 3hd with good maneuverability with no other restrictions.

Yugoloth Magic
At the levels in which a spell name is indicated above the Ycaloth can use it a certain number of times per day as an SLA. Save DCs are 10+1/2HD+Cha mod. Caster level is equal to hit die.
1-Darkness 1/day per HD.
4-Invisibility 1/day per 4 HD
10-Teleport 1/day per 5HD
At its sixth Nycaloth level, its Darkness SLA is upgraded to a Deeper Darkness ability, though it can still choose to use Darkness in place of it from the same pool of uses.
At its eighth Nycaloth level, its Invisibility SLA is upgraded to a Greater Invisibility ability, though it can still choose to use Invisibility in place of it from the same pool of uses.
When the Nycaloth gains its fourteenth HD, its Teleport ability is upgraded to Greater Teleport


Yugoloth
The Nycaloth gains a bonus on saves against poison and resistance to acid equal to its HD, and resistance to fire, cold & electricity equal to half HD. It can also see under any kind of darkness, even deeper darkness, as well as telepathy out to 10' per HD.
It also gains the evil subtype, and its natural attacks and any weapon it wields count as evil aligned for purposes of bypassing DR.

Spell Resistance
The Nycaloth gains SR equal to 11+HD

Cursed Wounds
The Nycaloth is a vile, cruel creature, and its blows leave scars that may not be immediately apparent.
Any time the Nycaloth successfully damages a creature with a physical attack, it may expend a use of Cursed Wounds to inflict a condition on the target. The save DC:s for these abilities are 10+1/2 HD+Con modifier. These abilities are usable times per day equal to 1/2 HD+constitution modifier. The abilities all draw from the same pool of uses.
Bleed: The wound continues to bleed, and the target creature takes one point of damage per round until a DC 15 heal check is made to stop it, or a healing spell is cast upon the target. Every 3 HD after this ability is gained, the ability deals another point of damage per round. This ability grants no saving throw.
Weaken: The wound drains the strength from the victim. The target takes 2 points of strength damage, plus one point per 3 HD after this ability is gained. A successful fortitude save halves the strength damage.
Drain: The wound drains the victim's stamina. The target takes 2 points of constitution damage, plus one point per 3 HD after this ability is gained. A successful fortitude save halves the constitution damage.
Stun: The sheer brutality of the attack stops the target in his tracks, stunning him for one round if he fails his fortitude save.
Savage: The attack wholly trashes the opponent, leaving him stumbling for footing, no longer in a shape to fight. The target must make a fortitude save or be nauseated for a number of rounds equal to half the nycaloth's hit dice. It gets a new fortitude save each round to shake off the effect.

Powerful Build
At third level, the physical stature of nycaloths lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.
Whenever a nycaloth is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the nycaloth is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.
A nycaloth is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature�s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A nycaloth can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject�s size category.

Improved Grab
At level 4, if a nycaloth's claw attack hits a creature it may make a grapple attempt as a free action with no attacks of opportunity.

Growth
At level 6, the nycaloth becomes large (tall). Its powerful build continues to apply.

Liftoff
If the nycaloth gets a hold of a creature at least one size category smaller than itself with a grapple, it can fly while holding the grappled creature.

Multi-Armed
At 10th level, the nycaloth's extra arms become functional. This means they can take the multiweapon fighting feat. If they had two weapon fighting prior to gaining this ability, the two weapon fighting feat changes into multiweapon fighting. Also, they kill things with four arms. Great, no?

Comments

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Now the Nycaloth. Again from the manual of the planes. At levels one and two, this is identical to the Mezzoloth, but after that, they start to differentiate. Most of what I did was just copypasta from various sources. It gets resistances and spell likes later than the Mezzoloth, but gains a bunch of extra abilities to compensate. This one also gets extra cha and con.

This has also been overhauled, for less SLA:s, more unique and fun stuff, and generally to be better as a monster class.

[Hyudra]

Planetouched

Not sure the individual choices are balanced against one another, though I like the implementation of options.

I'll make a list, as is my habit:

• List of class skills is perhaps a touch too extensive, given the fairly mediocre number of skill points. I'd suggest cutting it down to 12 (I generally see classes have about 3x their skillpoint growth in options).
• DR/Material is a little unspecific. A player could theoretically choose something like, say, DR/Uranium. Offer a list of choices, perhaps.
• Claw attacks are a pretty weak choice. Perhaps couple them with the natural armor?
• The elemental subtype is unclear, because the things you'd normally get for getting a subtype are kind of muddled by the class features. I might suggest doing as I did with the Mephits and being clear about what you get for choosing the individual subtypes.
• The damage bonus that comes with the elemental subtype is also unclear. Is it applied to natural attacks only? Weapon damage? Ranged weapons? Wands? Eldritch Blasts? Evocation spells?
• The first domain power is a little unclear. Is it just 1/day to use any one of the domain powers? 1/day for each?

I might consider adding an option for spellcasting planetouched, so they aren't a level behind the curve.

And it wouldn't hurt to offer options of good or evil subtypes.

I like it. With just a little tweaking and some of the less clear stuff cleaned up, I'd let a player use it, and I might even use it myself.

The Styx dragon

Sorry, I think I'm going to be more or less hands off when it comes to balancing this one. We're talking full BAB, two good saves, high mobility, three or more natural weapons and spellcasting as a bard. I can understand Oslecamo's stance that they're supposed to be on par with a swordsage as far as tiering and power, but I just can't wrap my head around how to balance them, since they've pretty much got no drawbacks and don't need to rely on party members for anything but damage soak.

Some general feedback:

• If he's amphibious, he should probably have a swim speed.
• Breath Weapon should be clearer that the stupefying gas is distinct from the acid line, a second breath weapon, not a bonus effect.
• The order of ability is confusing. You list abilities it gets at second level after you've listed abilities it gets at third.
• Fourth level, you note he gets wings on the table, but don't detail anything in the text.
• Stupefying gas is pretty devastating as a regular tool in the hands of an adventurer, considering that even up to later levels, many threats you'll face will have low int. I'm sure there's better examples, but a CR12 purple worm will be defeated instantly by the breath.
  
  To forestall the inevitable question, I'd recommend something along the lines of:
  
  • At tenth level, the Stygian Dragon can breath a fine mist bearing the mind fogging effects of the River Styx. The gas covers an area of [details], and afflicted foes take 1d6 damage to Int or Wis, whichever is higher. At 13 HD and every 3 HD after that, the damage increases by +2.
• The dragon doesn't feel very distinct until very late in the game. The most interesting aspects (constrict, stupefying breath) don't come until late. I'd consider moving them, improved grab and stuff to earlier levels, and then adding more quality fluff later.

Nycaloth

• Seems very underpowered at lower levels. First and second levels aren't interesting at all, and he doesn't offer much in tactical options. I'd suggest adding something interesting and thematic to spice it up and make people give fair consideration to a 1 or 2 level dip in Nycaloth.
• Ability Bonuses: Just a nitpick, but convention thus far has the ability bonuses appear last on the table, as such:
  
  [Class Feature 1], [Class Feature 2], Str+1
• Another nitpick: It helps if you list the total ability bonuses for taking all levels in the class. (ie. At thirteenth level, the Nycaloth will have a total of...)
• Can you explain why he gets the ability bonuses he does? Why does he need full BAB and +6 Str? Why the Cha bonuses?
• Part of me wants to restrict powerful build to giants and giantkin, and extreme cases. I may be a little biased in that regard though.
• You don't indicate a number of times a day for the SLAs.
  
  • Note: You did on the table, but not in the body of text. It's unclear whether the # of times a day specifies any SLA or each SLA.
• Flying with grabbed enemies should specify that it works on enemies one size category smaller than the Nycaloth, alongside the weight limit, to prevent some weird stuff from happening.
• As with the Stygian Dragon, the interesting and distinctive stuff about the Nycaloth doesn't show up until later. Namely, the wounding ability. Such could show up at an earlier level without breaking the game (say, 4-6ish). Multi-armed, similarly, is a neat and distinctive feature that could show up earlier, rather than compensating for differences from the Mezzo with high stat bonuses.
• Don't know that I like that powerful build continues to apply after he grows in size.

Just making text distinct from the rest

If anyone requests, I can go over stuff that I haven't, yet, from the previous page or so. I don't want to offer what may be unwanted criticism, though, when it would involve a lot of work to review everything.

[Frog Dragon]

• Seems very underpowered at lower levels. First and second levels aren't interesting at all, and he doesn't offer much in tactical options. I'd suggest adding something interesting and thematic to spice it up and make people give fair consideration to a 1 or 2 level dip in Nycaloth.
  Natural Armor, Claw Attacks, 40ft land speed, DR. Better than the barb and at low levels, the barb is competitive.
• Ability Bonuses: Just a nitpick, but convention thus far has the ability bonuses appear last on the table, as such:
  
  [Class Feature 1], [Class Feature 2], Str+1
• Another nitpick: It helps if you list the total ability bonuses for taking all levels in the class. (ie. At thirteenth level, the Nycaloth will have a total of...)
  Done.
• Can you explain why he gets the ability bonuses he does? Why does he need full BAB and +6 Str? Why the Cha bonuses?
  Felt appropriate. +6 isn't going to make or break anything. Cha because it helps the SLA:s and the Nycaloth has cha. Oscelamo actually recommended adding cha to my previous Yugoloth.
• Part of me wants to restrict powerful build to giants and giantkin, and extreme cases. I may be a little biased in that regard though.
• You don't indicate a number of times a day for the SLAs.
  
  • Note: You did on the table, but not in the body of text. It's unclear whether the # of times a day specifies any SLA or each SLA.
  
  It's per Sla. Specified.
• Flying with grabbed enemies should specify that it works on enemies one size category smaller than the Nycaloth, alongside the weight limit, to prevent some weird stuff from happening.
  Done.
• As with the Stygian Dragon, the interesting and distinctive stuff about the Nycaloth doesn't show up until later. Namely, the wounding ability. Such could show up at an earlier level without breaking the game (say, 4-6ish). Multi-armed, similarly, is a neat and distinctive feature that could show up earlier, rather than compensating for differences from the Mezzo with high stat bonuses.
  Wounding to 5, Grab to 8. Multi Armed to 9, SR to 11. Better?
• Don't know that I like that powerful build continues to apply after he grows in size.
  The Nycaloth is described as fighting with a huge greataxe. I thought it was appropriate

Responses in blue.

[Hyudra]

Natural Armor, Claw Attacks, 40ft land speed, DR. Better than the barb and at low levels, the barb is competitive.

I disagree:

• Natural Armor - Barb can wear medium armor, which mitigates this bonus, so you've probably got +2 over him if you've invested enough stats for 16 con.
• Claw Attacks - 1d4+Str and 1d4+Str may not be better than 2d6+1.5*Str. The greatsword arguably works better with power attack, too.
• 40 foot move - the 1st level barb has this.
• DR - 1 DR isn't a gamebreaker at low levels.

Add the fact that the barb has more skill points (enough for 2 more skills kept to maximum) and rage, which is really what makes him competitive. I would place good money on the 2nd level barb to win a fight vs. a 2nd level Nycaloth.

Wounding to 5, Grab to 8. Multi Armed to 9, SR to 11. Better?

Sounds better. It's apparently not edited into the creature, so I can't see the overall layout, but if it needs rebalancing, the extra arms could be restricted from using weapons until a higher level, as it's a pretty sizeable bonus. Look to the Marilith for something to balance against.

Felt appropriate. +6 isn't going to make or break anything. Cha because it helps the SLA:s and the Nycaloth has cha. Oscelamo actually recommended adding cha to my previous Yugoloth.

I dunno. The +6 scales up pretty dramatically when you figure he's making a number of attacks each round: +3 to hit (+15% chance to hit, basically) and a bonus to damage that depends what he's attacking with (Potentially +6 damage on each attack, which adds up). It feels unnecessary, as he's already got SLAs and he's quite a powerhouse with the multi-arms.

As a final note, it really helps if the ability descriptions in the body of text list what level the ability is gained at. It's a pain to keep referring to the table.

[Frog Dragon]

I gave it medium armor proficiency. Now it just trumps the barb in defense. Keep in mind, Nycaloth can swing a greatsword too.

I added the levels into the text descriptions.

Multiple arms are achievable way before level 9. It's fine.

[Gorgondantess]

Not sure the individual choices are balanced against one another, though I like the implementation of options.

Yeah, that is a problem... but I was going more for flavor than mechanics with this one.

[*]List of class skills is perhaps a touch too extensive, given the fairly mediocre number of skill points. I'd suggest cutting it down to 12 (I generally see classes have about 3x their skillpoint growth in options).

Planetouched are a versatile lot: I needed something that encompassed tieflings, aasimar, bladelings, anarchs, celadrin, every sort of gen, etc- so it has a big list of class skills. It's not game breaking.

[*]DR/Material is a little unspecific. A player could theoretically choose something like, say, DR/Uranium. Offer a list of choices, perhaps.

Good point- specifying.

[*]Claw attacks are a pretty weak choice. Perhaps couple them with the natural armor?

Righto.

[*]The elemental subtype is unclear, because the things you'd normally get for getting a subtype are kind of muddled by the class features. I might suggest doing as I did with the Mephits and being clear about what you get for choosing the individual subtypes[*]The damage bonus that comes with the elemental subtype is also unclear. Is it applied to natural attacks only? Weapon damage? Ranged weapons? Wands? Eldritch Blasts? Evocation spells?

Okay, I've rehauled that one.

[*]The first domain power is a little unclear. Is it just 1/day to use any one of the domain powers? 1/day for each?[/list]

Specified! 1/day to use any.

I might consider adding an option for spellcasting planetouched, so they aren't a level behind the curve.

Nahhh. +2 to your spellcasting stat, outsider type, a whole domain worth of spells (and you'll probably choose one where most of the spells aren't on your spell list), energy resistance and DR is worth losing one CL. Oh, and some good skill points and full BAB for one level.

And it wouldn't hurt to offer options of good or evil subtypes.

Ehehm:

*Any two alignment subtypes, and all attacks deal damage as the alignments. Spells cast with either alignment as a subtype are at +1 CL.

However, I'm not sure how to word this better... a little help would be appreciated.

I like it. With just a little tweaking and some of the less clear stuff cleaned up, I'd let a player use it, and I might even use it myself.

Thanks!

Stupefying gas is pretty devastating as a regular tool in the hands of an adventurer, considering that even up to later levels, many threats you'll face will have low int. I'm sure there's better examples, but a CR12 purple worm will be defeated instantly by the breath.

Did you read my big comparison on ray of stupidity vs. stupefying breath? Stupefying breath offers a fort save. If Kyuubi didn't include that, he needs to. Creatures with minuscule intelligence tend to have massive fort saves. Ray of stupidity, on the other hand, requires a touch attack. Creatures with minuscule intelligence tend to have minuscule touch AC. A 3rd level wizard can defeat half the creatures in the MM in one round- it's sad, really.

If anyone requests, I can go over stuff that I haven't, yet, from the previous page or so. I don't want to offer what may be unwanted criticism, though, when it would involve a lot of work to review everything.

I've been begging people to go over my Marrutact for days!
And my golem updates, those too. Golems are hard...

[Oslecamo]

Golems and plane touched added to the list. Excellent take on the last one in particular, the original tiefling and aasimar weren't that hot but the author's aproach allows you to make your own custom outsider easily, altough it can probably still use some tweaking.

Gorgondantess:The MarruSpawn looks very good as well...Except wis to nat armor. Con should always be used for natural armor unless it isn't available. Basic defense based on mental stats should be deflection(see gray jester and gloom), not nat armor.

The iron golem could also use something "special" as his capstone but your last upgrade made it enough playable in my opinion.


Kyuubi:You do love the dragons. Hmm, but you seem to be editing it because I don't see any gas ability. Well anyway it should definetely be 20 levels long. Lack of flight isn't that bad when it can swim, burrow and has bard spellcasting to get flight. Like an exotic dragon it will take work but it's a good challenge.

BelGareth:Well, it seems like you're still missing some basics. SLAs shouldn't be at will unless you have a really good reason. Dead levels are a no-no. It needs to remove the racial abilities of the original race. But you're geting there. I'll take polish those myself if I get some free time.

Responses in blue.

Go check out the pit fiend and balor. The early levels of the yugoloths have to keep up with that. Plus rule of fun. Just static numbers don't a good class make. Bigger levels look good tough.

+6 str over 13 levels however is fine even with the full BAB. Heck the pit fiend and Balor both get +10 over 20 levels.

[Frog Dragon]

Looking at those, I'm going to look into my Yugoloths a bit more. I supercharged skills. They now have 6+int and an expanded skill list. I think they are at similar levels with the Balor now.

[Hyudra]

I gave it medium armor proficiency. Now it just trumps the barb in defense.

It's still very boring at early levels.

Keep in mind, Nycaloth can swing a greatsword too.

Right, but I was referring to claws, as far as the fact that they aren't much of a selling point.

However, I'm not sure how to word this better... a little help would be appreciated.

• Good, Evil, Lawful or Chaotic subtype. All attacks are imbued with that alignment for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction and similar effects. Spells that have the chosen alignment as a subtype are cast at +1 Caster Level.

Did you read my big comparison on ray of stupidity vs. stupefying breath? Stupefying breath offers a fort save. If Kyuubi didn't include that, he needs to. Creatures with minuscule intelligence tend to have massive fort saves. Ray of stupidity, on the other hand, requires a touch attack. Creatures with minuscule intelligence tend to have minuscule touch AC. A 3rd level wizard can defeat half the creatures in the MM in one round- it's sad, really.

He didn't note the fort save.

And I wouldn't use any of the six 'Big 5' classes as a balancing point.

I personally like the notion of dealing a fair amount of int or wis damage to a group of creatures (and it is an AoE effect), as a non-damaging tool available at an earlier level. As the Wizard can compound his effects with metamagic, there are meta-breath feats available (One could make arguments for stuff like clinging breath, etc.).

I've been begging people to go over my Marrutact for days!
And my golem updates, those too. Golems are hard...

Alright.

Kyuubi:You do love the dragons. Hmm, but you seem to be editing it because I don't see any gas ability. Well anyway it should definetely be 20 levels long. Lack of flight isn't that bad when it can swim, burrow and has bard spellcasting to get flight. Like an exotic dragon it will take work but it's a good challenge.

Pretty sure he posted it as a work in progress.

[Gorgondantess]

Golems and plane touched added to the list. Excellent take on the last one in particular, the original tiefling and aasimar weren't that hot but the author's aproach allows you to make your own custom outsider easily, altough it can probably still use some tweaking.

Hah, yeah, probably. And thanks!

Gorgondantess:The MarruSpawn looks very good as well...Except wis to nat armor. Con should always be used for natural armor unless it isn't available. Basic defense based on mental stats should be deflection(see gray jester and gloom), not nat armor.

I liked the idea of the marrutact as something that's entirely mentally reliant. It doesn't make logical sense, but it makes thematic sense. I'd like to keep the wis to natural armor, if that's okay with you.

The iron golem could also use something "special" as his capstone but your last upgrade made it enough playable in my opinion.

Well, there's the perfect magic immunity: it's not a big boost in power, but it certainly makes the last level worth taking.

[Gorgondantess]

It's still very boring at early levels.

I've gotta agree with that sentiment. >.>

• Good, Evil, Lawful or Chaotic subtype. All attacks are imbued with that alignment for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction and similar effects. Spells that have the chosen alignment as a subtype are cast at +1 Caster Level.

Much obliged!

He didn't note the fort save.

And I wouldn't use any of the six 'Big 5' classes as a balancing point.

Well, I don't like something called "OP" when a 2nd level spell can do what it does but better.
...But, yeah, he didn't note the fort save.

I personally like the notion of dealing a fair amount of int or wis damage to a group of creatures (and it is an AoE effect), as a non-damaging tool available at an earlier level. As the Wizard can compound his effects with metamagic, there are meta-breath feats available (One could make arguments for stuff like clinging breath, etc.).

DM: "You spray your breath at the big monster, dealing 5 wisdom damage!... So, his will save drops by two points. Joe the horribly underleveled wizard, what do you do?"
Joe: "I cast ray of enfeeblement. Now all of the creature's attacks hit 10% less often and do two less damage!"
Frontline fighter: "Thanks, horribly underleveled wizard!"
Styx dragon player: *beats head against desk for wasting his standard action*
If you allow a fort save for that, it gets even worse. I personally prefer keeping the intelligence damage equal to HD, and just giving it a fort save: anything seriously threatened by the attack turning them into a vegetable generally has a high fort save. Those with low fort saves generally have a high intelligence. Everyone's happy.

[Oslecamo]

I liked the idea of the marrutact as something that's entirely mentally reliant. It doesn't make logical sense, but it makes thematic sense. I'd like to keep the wis to natural armor, if that's okay with you.

Well I went to check some of the older monsters and the succubbus has cha to nat armor so I guess it's fine.

However I must ask you why wis. It is an arcane caster after all. It should at least be based on Cha or Int.

Anyway, updated the mindflayer to have nat armor based on int or cha, wichever is higher, and increased it's Bab to medium since it seemed like it could use a boost.

Well, there's the perfect magic immunity: it's not a big boost in power, but it certainly makes the last level worth taking.

You must remember that levels should be increasing in power. Is the last level really worth taking compared to, let's say, dipping barbarian for pounce? Anything from ToB to get a bunch of maneuvers?

[Gorgondantess]

Well I went to check some of the older monsters and the succubbus has cha to nat armor so I guess it's fine.

However I must ask you why wis. It is an arcane caster after all. It should at least be based on Cha or Int.

Because the marrutact in the MM had something like 18 or 19 wisdom, and I wanted to give that a use. I wanted to make it MAD as a balancing agent.

Anyway, updated the mindflayer to have nat armor based on int or cha, wichever is higher, and increased it's Bab to medium since it seemed like it could use a boost.

Wow, cool. It's almost worth taking now.

You must remember that levels should be increasing in power. Is the last level really worth taking compared to, let's say, dipping barbarian for pounce? Anything from ToB to get a bunch of maneuvers?

Hmmm...
Yes. Yes, it is. You go from immunity to up to 6th level spells to immunity to all spells. Immunity to 6th level spells is, eh, nice, come endgame. Immunity to all spells is friggin amazing. And remember, this isn't a 20th level capstone, this is a 13th level capstone: barbarian and warblade can always be taken later.

[Oslecamo]

Because the marrutact in the MM had something like 18 or 19 wisdom, and I wanted to give that a use. I wanted to make it MAD as a balancing agent.

Hmm well. Wizards aren't suposed to get that much AC anyway. Ok keep it wis based then.

Wow, cool. It's almost worth taking now.

Yeah, the mindflayer seems kinda underpowered in restrospective now. Sugestions to make "it worth it"? Full BaB and str bonus so it can grapple properly? Or focus more on the spellcasting side? Allow it to grapple/cast at the same time?

Hmmm...
Yes. Yes, it is. You go from immunity to up to 6th level spells to immunity to all spells that allow SR Immunity to 6th level spells is, eh, nice, come endgame. Immunity to all spells that allow SR is friggin amazinggood but not that impressive.

See that's the key part. It only protects you from SR:yes stuff.

But that however would make a great capstone. Give the iron golem "true" magic immunity at 13th level like it had in 3.0. Spells with SR:yes automatically fail and SR:no spells must now roll for SR as normal.

[Gorgondantess]

Yeah, the mindflayer seems kinda underpowered in restrospective now. Sugestions to make "it worth it"? Full BaB and str bonus so it can grapple properly? Or focus more on the spellcasting side? Allow it to grapple/cast at the same time?

Personally, I hate it when people focus on the grappling/extracting side of the mindflayer. Mindflayers DO NOT run into battle and overpower people: mindflayers are manipulators. They use their charms and mental abilities to lure people close, and then go in for the kill... or at least stun them with their mind blast.
Also, psionic illithids are tenmillion times cooler than "buckets of SLA" illithids.
...Mind if I take a crack at it?

See that's the key part. It only protects you from SR:yes stuff.

Which is most spells.

But that however would make a great capstone. Give the iron golem "true" magic immunity at 13th level like it had in 3.0. Spells with SR:yes automatically fail and SR:no spells must now roll for SR as normal.

That opens up a whole can o' worms- most spells are SR: no for a reason. For example, would this work on a grease spell? If yes, how about a summoned monster? I understand stuff like orb of fire, but would it work on, say, a wall of thorns? Where do you draw the line?
What I think I'll do is keep the normal magic immunity... then have ranged touch attacks deflect back at the caster plus spell turning.

[Hyudra]

Iron Golem

• Nitpick - I really prefer it when people list when the ability is earned, in the ability descriptions. Saves a lot of back & forth checking of the table.
• List tag in the spoiler detailing construct traits is missing from the start.
• "Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed." - as a PC, it's almost guaranteed to have an intelligence score. Is this needed?
• The fire damage healing the golem is a little odd, since as far as I can tell, he doesn't gain immunity to it? So he takes 3 and heals 1? Putting an 'instead' in the text would clarify matters.
• Minor nitpick - Indomitable is already an ability name for Stone Giant. I like the ability though.
• Wrist Razors is unexciting as a class feature, the first time you get it.
• In the text of Wrist Razors, you write "A subsequent applications" - making it unclear whether you meant 'all subsequent applications' or 'a subsequent application'.
• Under Grappling Hook: "If successful, the foe is dragged into the Golem's square or the golem is dragged to the foe's square" - what decides this?
• More on Grappling Hook: I'm not sure I buy the constrict thing for the upgraded grappling hook. What if...
  
  • It extended range?
  • It let the golem pull down objects, walls or doors with a strength check?
  • Spiked chain for hurtiness?
• Wristbow: Just a suggestion, but I like the mental image of a really big golem carrying a ballista around. An upgrade option to increase wristbow size, maybe?
• Voicebox doesn't really sell me, as compared to expanded attack options. Bluff & Diplomacy bonuses don't really work either, on a character that's almost certainly not going to be the party's face.
• Not sure I like wasting breath as a free action, as it's liable to confuse turn order and action order.

Speaking in terms of balance, I think it's mostly fair. I'm trying to figure out the armor bonus in my head and not entirely succeeding, leaving me to wonder if he's too durable considering the damage output he can put out.

Such would be fine if he had another drawback (like, he can't run), but I dunno. I just can't help but wonder if a steel golem of equivalent level wouldn't just kick a given Giant's (of any type's) rear.

Either way: Woo, Worker 8!

But that however would make a great capstone. Give the iron golem "true" magic immunity at 13th level like it had in 3.0. Spells with SR:yes automatically fail and SR:no spells must now roll for SR as normal.

I dunno about that. Maybe as a "at 20 HD" (or 16, or something) bonus. As it stands, it covers a lot of weaknesses, and lead feet pretty much keeps the golem from being hampered. Anything else (Force cage) is up to the player to cover with WBL, ingenuity or reliance on teammates.

The ability works nicely as is. It forces casters to find workarounds.

[Oslecamo]

Personally, I hate it when people focus on the grappling/extracting side of the mindflayer. Mindflayers DO NOT run into battle and overpower people: mindflayers are manipulators. They use their charms and mental abilities to lure people close, and then go in for the kill... or at least stun them with their mind blast.

But..Tentacles! They need some love!

Altough yeah, the current mind flayer could use some more battlefield control. Perhaps more skill points. They're suposed to be pretty resourcesfull indeed.

Also, psionic illithids are tenmillion times cooler than "buckets of SLA" illithids.
...Mind if I take a crack at it?

I do mind. The psionic illithid from PsiHB is ba-rroken as it is (excellent scores and casts psion of higher level than CR? Yeah right...).

For a balanced version you could just as well take one level of mind flayer and then put psion levels on top. There, psionic illithid done whitout need of a whole new class.

Which is most spells.

Doesn't mean spellcasters actualy take them. Every spellcaster will take care to include some SR:No spells under his belt. On the other hand no sane caster will take every blast evocation spell.

That opens up a whole can o' worms- most spells are SR: no for a reason. For example, would this work on a grease spell? If yes, how about a summoned monster? I understand stuff like orb of fire, but would it work on, say, a wall of thorns? Where do you draw the line?

Then we get "true" magic immunity like I said, where the golem tramples over magic obstacless and fake creatures shatter when they try to attack it.

What I think I'll do is keep the normal magic immunity... then have ranged touch attacks deflect back at the caster plus spell turning.

Well that would work too.

[Gorgondantess]

• Nitpick - I really prefer it when people list when the ability is earned, in the ability descriptions. Saves a lot of back & forth checking of the table.
• List tag in the spoiler detailing construct traits is missing from the start.
• "Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed." - as a PC, it's almost guaranteed to have an intelligence score. Is this needed?
• The fire damage healing the golem is a little odd, since as far as I can tell, he doesn't gain immunity to it? So he takes 3 and heals 1? Putting an 'instead' in the text would clarify matters.
• Minor nitpick - Indomitable is already an ability name for Stone Giant. I like the ability though.
• Wrist Razors is unexciting as a class feature, the first time you get it.
• In the text of Wrist Razors, you write "A subsequent applications" - making it unclear whether you meant 'all subsequent applications' or 'a subsequent application'.
• Under Grappling Hook: "If successful, the foe is dragged into the Golem's square or the golem is dragged to the foe's square" - what decides this?
• More on Grappling Hook: I'm not sure I buy the constrict thing for the upgraded grappling hook. What if...
  
  • It extended range?
  • It let the golem pull down objects, walls or doors with a strength check?
  • Spiked chain for hurtiness?
• Wristbow: Just a suggestion, but I like the mental image of a really big golem carrying a ballista around. An upgrade option to increase wristbow size, maybe?
• Voicebox doesn't really sell me, as compared to expanded attack options. Bluff & Diplomacy bonuses don't really work either, on a character that's almost certainly not going to be the party's face.
• Not sure I like wasting breath as a free action, as it's liable to confuse turn order and action order.

Fixed, except for indomitable, grappling hook and voicebox: I happen to like those as is. Voicebox is mainly flavor.

Speaking in terms of balance, I think it's mostly fair. I'm trying to figure out the armor bonus in my head and not entirely succeeding, leaving me to wonder if he's too durable considering the damage output he can put out.

Okay. Let's say we have a character who put an 18 in strength, and all of their stat increases were put into strength. At level 10, an iron golem gains +9 AC from metal bound, and +9 from natural armor, for a total of +18. Meanwhile, a fire giant who put 18 into con would have +10 natural armor, and their full plate would be 1 AC less than the iron golem's metal bound. Meanwhile, their HP would be much, much higher, which balances out with the iron golem's immunities.

Such would be fine if he had another drawback (like, he can't run), but I dunno. I just can't help but wonder if a steel golem of equivalent level wouldn't just kick a given Giant's (of any type's) rear.

That's a good question... in the end, the giants can take more abuse, having better saves and HP, but the iron golem just won't take as much abuse, having their immunities and slightly higher AC, as well as DR. The giants are also a lot more versatile, and grow to larger sizes, while the iron golem... still has his immunities, which are pretty much going strong (I mean, come on, a good will save or suck will destroy the fire giant). I think in a head to head battle, the fire giant would win... but the iron golem is more powerful, in that it can actually go head to head with a caster.
I added in can't run as well, though: that's perfectly reasonable.

But..Tentacles! They need some love!

I love the tentacles. I adore the tentacles- just look at my avatar. I love the tentacles more than you can fathom.
I just don't use them. As an illithid, you should have better things to do than shove people to the ground and eat out their brains.

I do mind. The psionic illithid from PsiHB is ba-rroken as it is. Otherwise you could just as well take one level of mind flayer and then put psion levels on top. There, psionic illithid done whitout need of a whole new class.

You don't have to include the 9th level manifesting in the 8 CR creature... I'm more wanting to make it like an ethergaunt, but psionic. Would that be a problem?

[Machiavellian]

I adore this!

There are a few monster Classes I'd want to see, If you have time:

Pit Fiends (Seriously? They have Astral Devas, but not Pit Fiends???)
Balors (see above)
Atopal (A seriously awesome epic monster that seems to be forgotten in everyone's mind...)
Beholder (With Mind Flayer already done, why was the Beholder left behind?)
Scorrow [Drow Scorpion thing akin to Drider] (Just awesome....)


Thanks in advance!

[Gorgondantess]

Pit Fiends (Seriously? They have Astral Devas, but not Pit Fiends???)

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=80

Balors (see above)

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=58

Atopal (A seriously awesome epic monster that seems to be forgotten in everyone's mind...)

It hasn't been forgotten, at all. Somebody's working on it. But, as you said, it's epic: it takes time.

Beholder (With Mind Flayer already done, why was the Beholder left behind?)

It wasn't:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=416
Also because beholders are stupid and ugly and they cheat at cards, it should've not been made. And did I say they're stupid? Coz they're pretty damn stupid.

Scorrow [Drow Scorpion thing akin to Drider] (Just awesome....)

Never even heard of that... but this might work for you:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=839
Maybe you could just convince your DM to let you multiclass between scorpionfolk and drider.

Come on, mate, we've made all but one of the creatures you're asking for.

[Hyudra]

Okay. Let's say we have a character who put an 18 in strength, and all of their stat increases were put into strength. At level 10, an iron golem gains +9 AC from metal bound, and +9 from natural armor, for a total of +18. Meanwhile, a fire giant who put 18 into con would have +10 natural armor, and their full plate would be 1 AC less than the iron golem's metal bound. Meanwhile, their HP would be much, much higher, which balances out with the iron golem's immunities.

Alright. Good interpretation.

I'll look at Force Golem at some point soon.

[demidracolich]

For the styx dragon, in the beginning it still says it has claw attacks. A styx dragon does not get claw attacks, it has two tail blades that do damage as claws one size catergory bigger. Also copy paster error because it still has pyroclastic scales.

[Oslecamo]

I think in a head to head battle, the fire giant would win... but the iron golem is more powerful, in that it can actually go head to head with a caster.

Not exactly. The giants have better tools to attack at range and are faster. The golem can shrug off most special attacks thrown at him, but he still needs to reach the fast flying wizard.

I love the tentacles. I adore the tentacles- just look at my avatar. I love the tentacles more than you can fathom.
I just don't use them. As an illithid, you should have better things to do than shove people to the ground and eat out their brains.

Several medias show the mindflayer going straight for the brains, using their psionic powers to back them up. They're suposed to love the gray matter, particularly of exotic/smart/creative/wise creatures. Lords of madness say a mind flayer needs one brain per month, but will gladly eat more if there's prey avaiable.

You don't have to include the 9th level manifesting in the 8 CR creature... I'm more wanting to make it like an ethergaunt, but psionic. Would that be a problem?

...Fine, if you like it so much, make the psionic mind flayer and I'll add it. You've done plenty of good work here so I'll trust you.

However I'll still be working on the original mind flayer since there needs to be love for hungry illithilds!

Machiavellian:Check the first page. There's two indexes of creatures already done here and their links, one by date of adition and the other by alphabetical order.