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  1. - Top - End - #1171
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by AustontheGreat1 View Post
    GRIFFON
    • You didn't list HD size.
    • I don't know that a high # of skill points is appropriate. Being that Griffons are more of a dumb beast, it might be more appropriate to de-emphasize skills and emphasize stats more.
    • Balance, Climb and Move Silently kind of stand out on the skill list. Balance is nigh useless (The Griffon gets sizeable bonuses vs. trip for being four legged & later, being large, and later on it flies, anyways), Climb is questionable (I can't envision a Griffon scaling a cliff) and Move Silently is not so fitting (If you want to emulate a great cat, it might be better to have hide but not move silently, so it is encouraged to lay in wait).
    • Indeed, in 'Griffon Body', I'd make a special note that it is four legged.
    • And give it natural armor. No armor proficiency + no natural armor is pretty crippling for a melee beast.
    • Scent description is overlong. It's a core ability like regeneration, so the class doesn't need an involved description any more than the troll does. 'Generally within 30 feet' is kind of strange too. Set hard limit.
    • Stat bonuses could stand to be bigger. Remember, the Griffon is unable to speak or use tools, so it has to do a great deal with what it has. (It can't use command word magic items, weapons, etc). The Griffon gets a lot of abilities that melee characters like, so this balances it out. I'd say definitely a bit more in the way of stats, but don't go overboard.
    • Grace is really out of place. Neither of the skill bonuses are terribly useful, and in truth, I'm not so sure what the intention is with the 'running start' thing.
    • Flight comes 1 level too early. It's exceedingly powerful at third level. The standard is for it to show up at fourth-fifth.
    • Growth arguably shows up a bit too early. If we're acknowledging that the griffon is rather limited by lack of hands and speech, it can debatably get away with this.
    • I would argue Vigil and Pounce should show up earlier. Grace could maybe be reworked. Flight should show up later.
    • I'd also attach the Rake attacks to the acquisition of claw attacks, not pounce. Also, note that the Griffon's Rake is not an additional attack (or two additional attacks), but a bonus when grappling. It's a minor bonus that the Griffon could earn at second level, when it gets claws.

  2. - Top - End - #1172
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Creature of Legend
    Prestige/Template Monster Class
    Monster Manual II


    Spoiler
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    Prerequisites:
    To become a Creature of Legend, a creature must fulfill the following requirements:
    • 4 or more HD.
    • At least one level in a monster class.
    • Any creature type but humanoid (Monstrous humanoid is ok), undead, construct, ooze or swarm.
    • Must have defeated an opponent of a CR greater than one's own HD in single combat, without the intervention of allies.

      The DM is encouraged to use his or her own discretion in interpreting whether the potential Creature of Legend had 'assistance'. In general, one or two borrowed pieces of equipment or any spells/effects that would last for a week or longer (such as a persisted magic fang) are not considered assistance, nor is having allies keep lesser minions of your opponent at bay. Conversely, examples such as allies actively contributing with short term buffs before the battle, flanking, adding debuffs to the opponent, controlling the battlefield or helping to damage the opponent would be considered interference and would void the possibility of that encounter allowing entry to this class.


    HD: D8
    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will |Special
    1st|+0|+0*|+0*|+0*| Body of Legend, Fabled Strength, Fabled Power
    2nd|+1|+0*|+0*|+0*| Legendary Strength, Legendary Power
    [/table]
    Skill Points 4+Int per level
    Class Skill Skills: As Base Creature

    Proficiencies: Creatures of Legend do not gain any new proficiencies.

    Body of Legend: Unlike other monster classes, the creature's original racial traits are retained. The Creature of Legend gains Outsider traits, if it did not already have them, with the augmented subtype if necessary. Their native plane is the plane they call home.

    Fabled Strength: Creatures of Legend are touched by a great power, removing many of their minor imperfections and creating some aesthetic changes (it might grow decorative horns, patterns on its hide, scales or skin, glowing eyes). There is no mechanical benefit to these aesthetic changes.

    A creature of legend has an added +1 Natural AC (this stacks) for every two HD they have, and good save progression for the saving throw of the player's choice.

    Further, for every 3HD the creature has in total, pick one material: the creature's natural attacks are considered to be forged of any and all of the listed materials for the purposes of bypassing DR. Alternately, the player may elect to be able to deal standard damage to incorporeal opponents with their natural attacks, or take a +1 bonus on attack rolls.

    For every 5HD the creature has, pick one of the four alignments (Good, Evil, Law, Chaos): the creature's attacks (note: not just natural attacks) are considered to be of that alignment for the purposes of bypassing DR and other defenses.

    Fabled Power: Creatures of Legend are blessed with an increasing number of special qualities, as the powers that be take more notice of them. With the first level in this class, the creature may select one of these powers. This choice is made once and requires a limited wish, miracle or true wish to change:
    Spoiler
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    • Enhanced power for each of the creature's special attacks and spell like abilities, increasing the DCs by +1, +1 for every 8HD of the creature.
    • Fast Healing equal to 1/2 the creature's HD.
    • Greater damage for each of the creature's natural attacks, causing them to deliver damage as if they were increased in step by one size category.
    • Immunities to two of the following: acid, electricity, fire, cold, poison or polymorphing. You may take this ability a second time, choosing 2 additional things from the list.
    • Immunity to Mind Affecting effects.
    • Reflective hide, causing the creature to be affected by a continuous effect not dissimilar to the spell 'Spell Turning'. At the beginning of each encounter, a DM should roll 1d3 and consult the table below, following the appropriate column for your d3 result and current HD:
      {table]HD|1 (on 1d3)|2 (on 1d3)|3 (on 1d3)
      5-6
      |
      0
      |
      1
      |
      2
      7-8
      |
      1
      |
      2
      |
      3
      9-10
      |
      2
      |
      3
      |
      4
      11-12
      |
      3
      |
      4
      |
      5
      13-14
      |
      4
      |
      5
      |
      6
      15-16
      |
      5
      |
      6
      |
      7
      17-18
      |
      6
      |
      7
      |
      8
      19-20
      |
      7
      |
      8
      |
      9
      [/table]
      This is determines the efficacy of the effect for the duration of the encounter, and the result should be kept private from the player. The reflectiveness of the hide doesn't decrease as the creature absorbs spells as it does with Spell Turning. The effect works only on spells that have you as a target, and reflects them back on the caster. In the event of spells that are of a higher level than whatever value you obtained at the beginning of the encounter, the damage is divided appropriately between you and your opponent. Similarly, if you are targeted by an effect that doesn't deal damage, roll a 1d100 to determine whether it affects you or your opponents, with the values above in mind. (ie. If you had a 6 and your opponent cast an 8th level spell at you, you'd reflect 6/8 (or 3/4, 75%) of the effects back at the caster.)

    Alternately, pick two of the following:
    • Increased damage for each of your natural attacks, as listed above, but only if you have & can obtain 2 or less such attacks. If you gain more natural attacks at a later date, the other choice made her becomes void. (ie. If you have 2 claw attacks and pick this option + flight, you lose flight if & when you gained a bite attack.)
    • DR/material, with the material being iron, silver or adamantium, equal to 1/2 the Creature's HD. If a Creature already has DR from other sources, increase it by +5.
    • SR equal to 11+HD. If a Creature already has SR from other sources, increase it by +5.
    • All seeing, allowing the creature to see invisible foes and see in even magical darkness. Increase the range of the creature's vision by 50%.
    • The creature grows a pair of wings, giving it flight equal to 150% of its base land speed at average maneuverability. If the creature already has wings, it grows an additional, matching pair, giving them additional flight speed of +10' per 5HD, one step of increased maneuverability and their choice of one of the following feats: Hover or Wingover (SRD) or Aerial Reflexes, Aerial Superiority, Born Flyer, Diving Charge, Flyby Attack, Improved Flight or Winged Warrior (Races of the Wild).


    Legendary Strength: At second level, the Creature of Legend is enhanced by the power that thrums through them. Any DR becomes DR/-, they gain +10' to each mode of movement available to them, and the Creature of Legend's statistics are increased: The CoL gets +4 to its lowest ability score (Or +2 to two ability scores tied for last place) and the player's choice of +1 to three different attributes or +2 to a single attribute.

    Legendary Power: A second level Creature of Legend is truly awe inspiring, and bards will tell tales of how it has abilities not seen in others of its kind. The player may select one additional Fabled Power as listed above and one Legendary Power chosen from the list below (This choice is permanent, but may be altered with a limited wish, miracle, wish):
    Spoiler
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    • Breath Weapon - The Creature of Legend can exhale a terrible breath weapon, scouring flesh from their foes. The breath weapon is a cone extending 30 feet in front of the Creature, delivering 1d6 damage/HD, with a reflex save (DC 10 + ½ CoL's HD + CoL's Con bonus). The Creature may choose one of the following damage types (Fire, Lightning, Acid, Cold) or select a rarer damage type (Sound, Force) with the damage reduced to 1d4/HD. Once the choice of damage type is made, it is permanent. Once the breath weapon is used, the Creature of Legend must wait 1d4 rounds to use it again.

      Advancement: The range of this attack increases by 5' for every two HD of the creature and the Creature of Legend may select one metabreath feat for every 8HD it has.
    • Frightful Presence - When the Creature of Legend makes a loud sound (roar, growl, or other sound appropriate to its form), it inspires terror in all creatures within 20' that have a CR lower than it's own HD. Each potentially affected opponent must make a Will save (DC is 10 + ½ CoL's HD + CoL's Cha bonus) or become shaken. A foe that fails by 4 or more is Frightened, and a creature that fails by 8 or more is Panicked. If a creature fails multiple subsequent saves, their condition worsens by a minimum of one step. Once a foe has successfully saved against the effect they are immune for the remainder of the day.

      Advancement: The range increases by 10' for every five HD of the Creature. At 12HD, the creature's roar vibrates with raw power. Treat this as a standard action, with the radius and DC listed above. Foes in the area must make a save as normal, but foes who would normally be immune by virtue of being mindless must make an initiative roll to oppose the check or take no actions that turn, as their senses are overwhelmed by the sheer presence of their foe. Once a foe has been affected by this, they cannot be affected again that encounter.
    • Poison - Venom seeps and pools down from between the Creature of Legend's teeth in a caustic drool. If it does not already have a bite attack, it gains one dealing 1d4+½ Str damage, with the attack damage scaling upwards or downwards for every size category the creature is larger or smaller than medium. The creature delivers a poison with any successful bites. The poison is Injury based and deals 1d6 Str damage in initial and secondary damage. The DC is equal to 10 + ½ CoL's HD + CoL's Con bonus. In the event that the creature already has a way of delivering another kind of poison via. natural attack, they may add this poison to that natural attack instead.

      Advancement: For every 4HD after 4th, the venoms of the Creature of Legend becomes that much more terrible. Pick one of the following:
      • The save DC increases by +2
      • The poison inflicts +2 Str damage as part of the initial and secondary effects.
      • The poison is corrosive and reduces opponents' AC by 1d4 on a successful attack with your bite. To undo the effect, the armor must be repaired (for removable armor) or healed like ability damage (for natural armor).
      • The bite damage is considered to be vile damage and 1/3rd of the Str is ability drain, instead (round up). Choosing this option multiple times adds +1d4 vile damage to the bite and makes an added one third of the Str into ability drain.
      • The poison inflicts a negative level as secondary damage.
      • The poison is so potent it will even affect creatures that would normally be immune, sapping whatever kinds of energy sustain the creature, even negative or magical energies. Golems, undead and creatures that are normally immune to poison are affected. Such creatures take half the ability damage they normally would.
      • The poison persists in the victim's system for long durations, acting much like a disease. After the secondary damage, the victim must make another saving throw every minute. Failure means they take ability damage again. Two successful saves against the poison (including initial and secondary damage) means the victim has successfully shaken off the poison's effect.
    • Raging Blood - When the Creature of Legend is damaged by a piercing or slashing weapon, elementally infused blood splashes onto its opponents in a 5' cone, dealing 1d4 elemental damage (Fire, Cold, Electric or Acid - this choice is made once and applies thereafter.

      In addition, the storm of energy surging through the Creature of Legend makes it nigh unstoppable. The Creature of Legend gains one Raging Blood Surge that it may expend to bypass the effects of a failed save or to bypass an obstacle (such as a force cage, a pit, or a cliff). When this ability is triggered, requiring a standard action, the Creature of Legend enters a rage, shaking off the spell or ability effect or using a demonstration of elemental strength to tear past the offending obstacle (leaping up a cliff or across a pit, bashing through a force wall), as part of the action. Alternately, it may use the Raging Blood Surge to continue fighting after falling to negative hitpoints, which allows it to continue fighting until it reaches a number of negative hitpoints equal to three times its Con score. When the Raging Blood Surge ends, which occurs after 1 minute or at the creature's whim, the Creature of Legend returns to 1 hitpoint and becomes fatigued. The Raging Blood Surge is made available again when the Creature of Legend either defeats an opponent (or a collection of opponents) of equal or greater CR than itself or when it returns to maximum hitpoints. As such, it is possible for the creature to regain and use multiple surges in a single encounter.

      Advancement: The ability does another 1d4 elemental damage for every 3HD the Creature of Legend has. The cone increases in size by 5' for every 10HD the Creature of Legend has.
    • Spells - Provided it does not already have divine casting or divine caster advancement from another source, the Creature of Legend can now spontaneously cast divine spells, with the ability to cast each spell known once a day. For spells known, the Creature of Legend must pick two domains, and can access any spell of a level that's no more than 1/2 it's HD. (A level 6 creature could cast up to level 3 spells).

      Should the creature take levels in a divine spellcasting class, it may elect to have its Monster Class & Creature of Legend levels stack for the purposes of determining CL and spells per day. This does not apply retroactively; An 8th level Creature of Legend acquiring one level of cleric would gain the spells per day it would have gained going from 8th level cleric to 9th level cleric, but wouldn't retroactively gain the spell options of a 1st to 8th level cleric.



    Comments
    Spoiler
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    My design intent in the CoL was finding a way to advance some of the existing monsters so they retained their status as 'monsters' and so the core monsters kept their natural vulnerabilities or qualities, while allowing room for them to be more viable.

    The Fabled Strength and Legendary Strength abilities are primarily ways to shore up weaknesses vs. higher level encounters, giving creatures with various holes in their design (ie. a less than stellar DR/Magic) to shore up those holes. Similarly, creatures who only have natural attacks and the inability to wield weapons (Say, the Griffon, above) can now affect higher level enemies with more obscure DRs.

    I wanted the stat bonuses to feel 'legendary', so I tried to make them big without allowing the player to stack any one stat. As is, you get a sizeable bonus to your dump stat (which is largely thematic, as the creature becomes more perfect, losing weaknesses as they become something truly awesome) and either a fair spread out bonus or a smaller, focused bonus.


    Changelog
    Spoiler
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    August 4th, 2010:
    • Slight clarifications in the class entry 'defeat a stronger foe' prerequisite.
    • Added the option of being able to strike incorporeal opponents or just gaining a + to attack rolls, in Fabled Strength.
    • Changed the bonus to DCs to 1 + 1 per 8HD. Made it so it doesn't affect spells.
    • Removed fear from the list of possible immunities.
    • Changed SR to 16+HD
    • Changed some of the Legendary Powers to make them more versatile and tempting. Breath Weapon now grants some metabreath feats to scale up a little more later on. Poison now offers some choices that let you do vile damage, ability drain, more damage, raise DCs, bestow negative levels, melt armor or affect foes who are normally immune to poison. Terrifying presence now has utility against mindless foes and raging blood scales up fairly dramatically.
    • The Spells option of the Legendary Powers is altered to be 1/2 HD rather than Current HD-3.

    Second batch of changes, August 4th, 2010:
    • SR changed back to 11+HD, and merged with DR. Now offers stacking benefits with other sources, just in case.
    • Immunity to mind affecting effects is now a standalone ability pick.
    • Some of the weaker choices are now part of a 2 for 1 package deal on the list. This includes improved natural attack size, but only if you have 2 or less natural attacks.
    • Poison now progresses more swiftly, from every 6HD to every 4HD after 4th.
    • Raging Blood now offers a more active ability, the Raging Blood Surge, which lets the creature tear past many obstacles or ignore failed saving throws, so it can keep on fighting.
    • Spellcasting changed to Oslecamo's suggested domain method.

    Third batch of changes, August 4th, 2010:
    • Broke DR and SR apart again. Sigh. They're now choices in the 2 for 1 deals.

    August 10th, 2010:
    • Updated the poison progression and tidied it up.

    August 15th, 2010:
    • Edited to specify the armor bonus is natural and what their native plane is.

    October 10th, 2010:
    • Reduced the Raging Blood elemental damage from 2d4 per 3HD to 1d4 per 3HD.
    • Revised the spellcasting ability from the ability to cast per day as a sorcerer, with spells known from three domain lists (to casting each spell once a day, from 2 domain lists).

    October 11th, 2010:
    • Reworded a bit in the spellcasting ability, so it's a little clearer.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-10-11 at 12:10 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #1173
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    I like the creature of legend... but it's a bit off. Let's see why!
    *Body of legend: What happens if you're a construct? Or an undead? You suddenly change to outsider? That's a bit... iffy, in my book.
    *Fabled strength: so, for the materials, what do you choose at 12 HD once you've already chosen cold iron, silver, and adamantium? Byeshk? What do you choose after that?
    *Fabled Power: Okay, let's go blow by blow here.
    -Define "partial action". I know D&D like the back of my hand, and I've never heard that term.
    -Enchanced power is a bit too powerful, as far as I'm concerned. As a caster, this would be a fantastic 1 level dip, for +5 to DCs by 20 HD. WOW. That's FANTASTIC. Trust me, pumping DCs can get really scary, really quick.
    -Immunities: Why put fear there if you're going to put mind-affecting? I believe fear is considered mind-affecting. And, hell, mind-affecting trumps everything else on that list.
    *Reflective Hide: Scale it. I'd say spell levels equal to HD: so, at 5 HD, you have 5 spell levels. That's fine, isn't it? But getting a 7 spell level spell turning at 20 isn't so amazing.
    Also: SR? Really? Pretty much all the other options trump SR.

    *Legendary Strength: +4 to lowest ability score... huh. I don't like it: that can either be really useless or really useful. I'd make that an "or" choice.

    *Legendary Power: It's sad that some of these abilities are worse than fables power. Spells is pretty much the only really good choice: poison is meh (and mostly useless by level 20), frightful presence and breath weapon are pretty good, but still not that valuable, and raging blood is going to be potent at level 5, and useless at level 20 (scale it!). I mean, come on, 17th level cleric casting by level 20? This is a ridiculously good choice for your last 2 levels just because of that. I'd put the cleric casting at 1/2 HD (yes, 1/2 HD, that's still pretty damn useful), and let them key it off of any mental ability score.
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  4. - Top - End - #1174
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    I like the creature of legend... but it's a bit off. Let's see why!
    Woo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    *Body of legend: What happens if you're a construct? Or an undead? You suddenly change to outsider? That's a bit... iffy, in my book.
    The augmented type doesn't cover that?

    I'll just specify disallowed types.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    *Fabled strength: so, for the materials, what do you choose at 12 HD once you've already chosen cold iron, silver, and adamantium? Byeshk? What do you choose after that?
    Hrm. I just figured you'd take more obscure materials as you saw fit. I'll add another option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    *Fabled Power: Okay, let's go blow by blow here.
    For the record, I'm aware that many choices are subpar, but I was trying to be faithful to the options provided by the original template. If you have suggestions as to where a given entry can be rebalanced, I'm open to changing them.

    -Define "partial action". I know D&D like the back of my hand, and I've never heard that term.
    Taken verbatim from the entry. I'm familiar with the intention of the wording, but I'll clarify.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    -Enchanced power is a bit too powerful, as far as I'm concerned. As a caster, this would be a fantastic 1 level dip, for +5 to DCs by 20 HD. WOW. That's FANTASTIC. Trust me, pumping DCs can get really scary, really quick.
    I agree. The text in the original template was just a flat +4. Which would be scary at level 5. I wrote it up as listed as just a thought exercise on how I'd rebalance it, and then moved on without really thinking about it. I'll reduce its effect and stop it from applying to spells. That way, it emphasizes the monster using its own natural abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    -Immunities: Why put fear there if you're going to put mind-affecting? I believe fear is considered mind-affecting. And, hell, mind-affecting trumps everything else on that list.
    Was in the original template, which I copied from. One wouldn't take it, except in the most bizarre situations, but I'll remove it to help idiot-proof the class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    *Reflective Hide: Scale it. I'd say spell levels equal to HD: so, at 5 HD, you have 5 spell levels. That's fine, isn't it? But getting a 7 spell level spell turning at 20 isn't so amazing.
    Hrm. I think that's too good. It basically winds up being a better SR, since you've got the potential to turn back spells on unwitting foes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Also: SR? Really? Pretty much all the other options trump SR.
    *Shrug* Was one of the template options. Didn't see any reason not to include it. What about SR 16+HD?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Legendary Strength: +4 to lowest ability score... huh. I don't like it: that can either be really useless or really useful. I'd make that an "or" choice.
    My original plan was a flat charisma bonus, to represent how the creature is just that awesome and how it has such presence. But I didn't want a huge bonus to cha based creatures. In general, it's just a bonus where most people wouldn't make the investment, amending one's greatest flaws. I feel it's fitting with the class concept, and will only make a notable difference for the most MAD classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    *Legendary Power: It's sad that some of these abilities are worse than fables power. Spells is pretty much the only really good choice: poison is meh (and mostly useless by level 20), frightful presence and breath weapon are pretty good, but still not that valuable, and raging blood is going to be potent at level 5, and useless at level 20 (scale it!). I mean, come on, 17th level cleric casting by level 20? This is a ridiculously good choice for your last 2 levels just because of that. I'd put the cleric casting at 1/2 HD (yes, 1/2 HD, that's still pretty damn useful), and let them key it off of any mental ability score.
    I'll buff some of the existing powers and take your suggestion of 1/2 HD casting.

    Changes made, with the above noted. Changelog at the bottom of the post. Thanks for the feedback.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-08-04 at 05:05 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #1175

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Frog Dragon:Very good overall of the arcanoloth but 15th level kinda empty.


    Crafty Cultist:
    Ok, an interesting take...But why the extra set of arms? Also scaling bonus please. And allow the male to choose what kind of thing it likes to hunt like a proper ranger.

    AustontheGreat1:
    Good job there! However I think it could have a good fort save. And 2nd level looks kinda empty so I would put an +1 to Dex there.

    Hyudra:Excellent original take on the Monster of Legend, but as Gorgondantess pointed out the abilities are too dispar.

    At first level extra partial action is made of win. At second level cleric casting trumps everything else. Some sugestions:

    -DR and SR as a single choice, and stacking with already existing DR and SR in some way.
    -Mind affecting is worth at least two of the other immunities.
    -All seeing, flight, fast healing and greater damage just too weak by themselves, could probably be condensed into a single one with some tweaks.
    -Instead of "cast as cleric" I would do "Cast as sorceror but chooses one-three domains and can only cast spells from those domains with his slots". Casts as cleric of half level just doesn't seem that atractive to me as you can't hope to bypass SR and your buffs will be easily dispelled.
    -Poison kinda weak. Could be condesned with frightfull presence.
    -Raging blood just weak. Should be combined with breath weapon.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-08-04 at 05:13 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #1176
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Ohhh.... oh, my. That quickening is ridonkulously good. I honestly wouldn't take anything else, no matter what I'm playing. Beg beefy attacker? Lets you make a move action before you full attack. Caster? 2 spells in one turn FTW. Skirmisher? Move action, attack, move action. It's like spring attack on crack. Change it to something like... +10' speed, and +1 attack on a full attack action. Then maybe cut it into two abilities, where one does the above, and the other one grants an additional swift/immediate action every round.

    Also, I agree with Oslecamo on all of those. Except combining the natural weapons with the others (the big natural weapons would be devastating on, say, a red dragon).
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  7. - Top - End - #1177
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Hyudra:Excellent original take on the Monster of Legend, but as Gorgondantess pointed out the abilities are too dispar.
    They're disparate because of flaws in the original class as written. MMII was not the best written WotC material around. I'll continue updating stuff so the individual features are worthwhile choices unto themselves.

    -DR and SR as a single choice, and stacking with already existing DR and SR in some way.
    Alright.

    -Mind affecting is worth at least two of the other immunities.
    I'll change that.

    -All seeing, flight, fast healing and greater damage just too weak by themselves, could probably be condensed into a single one with some tweaks.
    I've got an idea for that.

    -Instead of "cast as cleric" I would do "Cast as sorceror but chooses one-three domains and can only cast spells from those domains with his slots". Casts as cleric of half level just doesn't seem that atractive to me as you can't hope to bypass SR and your buffs will be easily dispelled.
    I'll work with it.

    -Poison kinda weak. Could be condesned with frightfull presence.
    Just for clarification - is this in keeping with the updates to poison I recently made? (the various upgrades?)

    -Raging blood just weak. Should be combined with breath weapon.
    Again, this is in keeping with the changes I made to how it advances? Would really rather not condense it. I'll see what I can do to tweak it.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    They're disparate because of flaws in the original class as written. MMII was not the best written WotC material around. I'll continue updating stuff so the individual features are worthwhile choices unto themselves.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Just for clarification - is this in keeping with the updates to poison I recently made? (the various upgrades?)
    Hmm, very good job with that poison upgrades. I would just sugest you get the upgrades a little faster, like every 4 HD. Kyuubi, perhaps you could add some of this stuff to your Styx dragon?



    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Again, this is in keeping with the changes I made to how it advances? Would really rather not condense it. I'll see what I can do to tweak it.
    The problem with the blood it's that it's a reactive ability that isn't even assured to work every ecounter. It would be great for dealing with melee minions, but otherwise there's plenty of monsters that won't be fazed by it, because they're either dealing bludgeoding damage or attacking you with spells/SLAs or sniping you from afar or are just resistant/immune to the element in question.

    To make it a worthwile choice it should trigger on a bigger variety of situations and perhaps even be useable in an offensive way (thus combining it with breath weapon).
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-08-04 at 05:35 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Ohhh.... oh, my. That quickening is ridonkulously good. I honestly wouldn't take anything else, no matter what I'm playing. Beg beefy attacker? Lets you make a move action before you full attack. Caster? 2 spells in one turn FTW. Skirmisher? Move action, attack, move action. It's like spring attack on crack. Change it to something like... +10' speed, and +1 attack on a full attack action. Then maybe cut it into two abilities, where one does the above, and the other one grants an additional swift/immediate action every round.
    Yeah. Maybe works for a boss monster a DM wants to upgrade with the template, but it's pretty bugnuts crazy when you let loose with it. For the record, though, it did specify attacks, not just any standard action, so it wouldn't work with spellcasting.

    I'm too lazy to try and make it workable, so I've deleted it.

    ...
    Changes made:
    • SR changed back to 11+HD, and merged with DR. Now offers stacking benefits with other sources, just in case.
    • Immunity to mind affecting effects is now a standalone ability pick.
    • Some of the weaker choices are now part of a 2 for 1 package deal on the list. This includes improved natural attack size, but only if you have 2 or less natural attacks.
    • Poison now progresses more swiftly, from every 6HD to every 4HD after 4th.
    • Raging Blood now offers a more active option in addition to the dangerous blood: the Raging Blood Surge, which lets the creature tear past many obstacles or ignore failed saving throws, or ignore the effects of unconsciousness so it can keep on fighting. It's refresh conditions can allow it to be used multiple times per encounter, so it's a good option if you really want to stay in the fight.
    • Spellcasting changed to Oslecamo's suggested domain method.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Move the DR and SR into the second abilities (from which you can choose 2). That way there's actually some versatility there.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Done.

    10x Done.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post

    Crafty Cultist:
    Ok, an interesting take...But why the extra set of arms? Also scaling bonus please. And allow the male to choose what kind of thing it likes to hunt like a proper ranger.
    [B]
    Sahuagin mutants grow extra arms, would making it dependent on an ability score be more appropriate?(extra set of arms at 16 con for example) bonuses now scale and the male can choose a favoured enemy(but gains better bonuses if the choice is human)
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    I meant to put the DR & SR into the "choose 2" area, but split them apart: both of them are more powerful than any other ability.

    Also... y'know, most of these creatures already have DR. Might want to have it add a certain amount to that.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Crafty Cultist View Post
    Sahuagin mutants grow extra arms, would making it dependent on an ability score be more appropriate?(extra set of arms at 16 con for example) bonuses now scale and the male can choose a favoured enemy(but gains better bonuses if the choice is human)
    Humans are already a pretty great choice for favored enemies (most campaigns, you mostly fight humans). I wouldn't offer better bonuses.

    Plus, my favorite interpretation of Sahaugin doesn't have humans as their most hated enemy, really.

    Quote Originally Posted by GorgonDantess
    I meant to put the DR & SR into the "choose 2" area, but split them apart: both of them are more powerful than any other ability.
    Alright. Suggestion implemented.

    Quote Originally Posted by GorgonDantess
    Also... y'know, most of these creatures already have DR. Might want to have it add a certain amount to that.
    It already does. +5 to DR or SR if you already have it.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-08-04 at 08:55 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Wyvern


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    HD: D8
    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will |Special
    1st|+0|+2|+2|+0| Wyvern Body, Sting, +1 Dex
    2nd|+1|+3|+3|+0| Leathery Wings, Weave, +1 Str, +1 Con
    3rd|+2|+3|+3|+0| Lashing Tail, Scent, +1 Dex
    4th|+3|+4|+4|+0| Flight, Talons, +1 Str, +1 Con
    5th|+3|+4|+4|+0| Growth, Tail Slam, +1 Dex
    6th|+4|+5|+5|+0| Legendary Venom, Wing Beat, +1 Str, +1 Con
    [/table]
    Skill Points 2+Int per level
    Class Skill Skills: Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot

    Proficiencies: The Wyvern is proficient only with its own natural attacks.

    Wyvern Body: The Wyvern loses all other racial bonuses, and acquires Dragon traits, giving it Darkvision 60', low light vision and immunity to magical sleep and paralysis effects. Wyverns are initially medium sized creatures with 20' land movement and both a 1d10+Str damage Bite and a Sting that deals 1d4+Str damage alongside an injury based poison (See below). Either the Sting or the Bite can be the Wyvern's primary weapon at a given point in time, but both can't be the primary weapon at the same time (So whichever attack mode isn't chosen as primary suffers the standard -5 penalty on attack rolls). The Wyvern has wings, but isn't initially able to fly. Wyverns have a racial bonus to Spot equal to ½ their HD and Natural Armor equal to their Con.

    Wyverns are distinct from their greater dragon cousins in that they lack foretalons and their hindtalons do not have the necessary dexterity to wield objects, effectively rendering them incapable of performing fine manipulation (such as holding items, using a doorknob or performing somatic gestures). Wyverns can speak Draconic, with other languages possible via. intelligence bonus, as normal, but usually don’t bother with anything more elaborate than a loud hiss or a deep-throated growl much like that of a bull alligator.

    Attribute Bonus: The Wyvern gains +1 to Dexterity at every odd numbered level in the class. With even numbered levels, the Wyvern gains +1 Str and +1 Con, for a total bonus of +3 Str, +3 Dex and +3 Con at sixth level.

    Sting: The Wyvern is best known in adventuring circles for its poisonous sting: a fully grown Wyvern can fell an elephant with but a single dose. With each successful sting attack, the Wyvern injects an injury based poison. The poison allows a fortitude save, with a DC of 10 + ½ the Wyvern's HD + its Con bonus. The poison is initially weak, dealing 1d4 Con damage as both the initial and secondary effects, but increases in strength as the Wyvern gains HD, shown on the table below:
    {table=head]HD|Initial Damage|Secondary Damage
    3|1d4 Con|1d6 Con
    6|1d6 Con|1d6 Con
    9|1d6 Con|1d8 Con
    12|1d8 Con|2d6 Con
    15|2d6 Con|2d6 Con
    18|2d6 Con|3d6 Con[/table]

    Leathery Wings: Wyverns of second level or higher can use their natural wings to transport themselves about the battlefield. The Wyvern may fly (15' per HD to a maximum of 60', poor maneuverability), but has the restriction of having to start and end its turns on solid ground to do so.

    Weave: Second level Wyverns are eager hunters of larger prey. When fighting such opponents, or wary of smaller pray, they instinctively feint and hop about on their powerful legs, allowing them to quickly shift to more advantageous locations. Weave lets a Wyvern make 10' steps where they would normally be able to make 5' steps, with the caveat that they cannot make attacks of opportunity until the start of their next turn and they must be on the ground.

    At 8HD, the Wyvern can make attacks of opportunity even after a 10' step.

    At 14HD, Wyverns can make 15' foot steps, but again, cannot make attacks of opportunity afterward.

    At 20HD, the restriction on attacks of opportunity are again lifted.

    Lashing Tail: The third level Wyvern is now more adept at using its tail to strike at nearby foes. The Wyvern's tail attack can now be used to strike at foes up to 10' away. Should the Wyvern increase in size by way of spells or levels in this class, the range increases by 5' per size category. The Wyvern suffers no penalty for attacking adjacent foes.

    Scent: A third level Wyvern is a natural hunter, and can use its sense of smell to track prey. It has Scent with a range of 30'.

    Flight: The fourth level Wyvern can fly without the restriction of having to touch ground at any point during its turn. Wyverns fly at a speed of 60', with poor maneuverability. The Wyvern gains the feat Flyby Attack.

    Talons: Wyverns of fourth level or higher have two Talon attacks, usable only while airborne, that deliver 2d4+Str damage each. In addition, Wyverns have Improved Grab, allowing them to start a grapple check if they successfully strike an opponent with both talons during a flyby attack. Grabbed foes are carried aloft by the Wyvern, encumbrance allowing. Dropping them is a free action.

    Growth: A fifth level Wyvern grows to large size. Its reach, grapple modifiers, natural attack damage and skills change accordingly, but it doesn't gain any ability score bonuses or penalties.

    Tail Slam: A Wyvern of fifth level or higher can use its tail to strike the ground, sending up plumes of debris. This is a standard action and affects a target square within 15' of the Wyvern. Dust, leaves, snow or other debris fills the target square and all adjacent squares, blocking line of sight and offering partial concealment. If the Tail Slam is performed as part of flight, the dust is kicked up in a cone extending 15', plus 5' for every 10' the Wyvern has moved that turn (maximum +30').

    Opponents caught in the area of effect must make a fortitude save or be sickened for 1d3-1 rounds and make a reflex save or be blinded for 1d3-1 rounds. In the event of a '0' for the duration (ie. a rolled one), the effect only persists until the beginning of the target's next turn. The DC for both saves is 10+½ Wyvern's HD + Wyvern's Strength bonus, but opponents in squares adjacent to the target square get a +2 on both saves.

    Legendary Venom: The venom of a fully grown Wyvern is something to be feared. At sixth level the Wyvern's poison is enhanced in a manner of the player's choice, chosen from the list below. The Wyvern may enhance their poison again at 12HD and 18HD.
    • The save DC increases by +2
    • The poison inflicts +2 Con damage as part of the initial and secondary effects.
    • The poison is corrosive and reduces opponents' AC by 1d4 on a successful attack with your natural weapon. To undo the effect, the armor must be repaired (for removable armor) or healed like ability damage (for natural armor).
    • The sting damage is considered to be vile damage and 1/3rd of the ability damage is Con drain, instead (round up). Choosing this option multiple times adds +1d4 vile damage to the sting and makes an added one third of the Con damage into ability drain.
    • The poison inflicts a negative level as secondary damage.
    • The poison is so potent it will even affect creatures that would normally be immune, sapping whatever kinds of energy sustain the creature, even negative or magical energies. Golems, undead and creatures that are normally immune to poison are affected. If you would affect a creature without a Con score, the poison deals Str damage instead. Such creatures take half the ability damage they normally would.
    • The poison persists in the victim's system for long durations, acting much like a disease. After the secondary damage, the victim must make another saving throw every minute. Failure means they take Con damage again. Two successful saves against the poison (including initial and secondary damage) means the victim has successfully shaken off the poison's effect.


    Wing Beat: During a full attack, a sixth level Wyvern can deliver two wing attacks for 1d8+½ Str damage each.
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    I had a picture I liked in one of my art collection folders and I'd just written up some progressive poison abilities, so I thought I'd do the Wyvern.

    The benefit here is that with the Monster Hunter games, there's a wealth of material to draw from regarding Wyverns. It was because of online videos of these Wyverns in action that I easily came up with Weave and Tail Slam as ability concepts.

    The issue with the Wyvern was that aside from poison (which I didn't want to frontload too much) and brutal physical capabilities, it wasn't particularly excellent or distinctive at anything. In the end, I gave the Wyvern her ability to just completely dish it out in melee, I de-emphasized poison (In my initial draft, it dealt 2d6 initial & secondary damage at 6HD) and gave it reach with its tail, which isn't in the original monster but again, makes more sense when you see a theoretical wyvern fight.

    With that in mind, I wanted something that made the Wyvern stand out a little as a melee monster. Weave is that. With the potential to deliver 4+ attacks (bite, tail, wing, wing) on a full attack at 6th level, Weave makes the Wyvern a distinct threat, though it still retains general vulnerabilities and doesn't have a huge AC for a melee fighter. The attack of opportunity drawback is largely there to prevent abuse, though at those levels where the Wyvern loses that drawback, we can assume opponents have a workaround.

    Skill wise, it doesn't offer much (Wyverns are described as somewhat stupid), but it can hide and move silently, which couples well with Tail Slam's ability to block line of sight.
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    August 9th, 2010:
    • Changed the 'you can now poison undead/constructs' to deal Str damage to those with no Con score.

    August 10th, 2010:
    • Updated poison and tidied it up.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-08-10 at 02:36 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Hmm... the Wyvern... what's wrong with it...
    Oh, I see. Nothing! I like it.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Hmm... the Wyvern... what's wrong with it...
    Oh, I see. Nothing! I like it.
    Actually, On the table it says Terrible venom and in the ability list it's called Legendary venom.

    Other than that, it looks fine.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Good catch, Kyuub.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Good catch, Kyuub.
    Glad to be of service.

    Now I'm off to look at magic items.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Reptilians

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    HD:d10
    {table]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|Feature
    1|+ 1|+ 2|+ 0| +0 |Reptilian Body, Species, +2 Con.
    [/table]
    Skills: 4+int modifier, quadruple at 1st level. Class skills are Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival, and Swim.

    Proefeciencies:Simple weapons, light armor, light and heavy shields.

    Features
    Reptilian Body:At 1st level a Reptilian loses all racial bonus it had and gains monstrous humanoid traits, with the reptilian subtype. He's medium sized with darkvision 60', 2 natural claw attacks dealing 1d4+str modifier damage each as primary natural attacks, and one bite attack dealing 1d4+str modifier damage as a secondary natural attack.
    In addition, a Reptilian gains a bonus to natural armor equal to his constitution bonus.

    Species:
    Reptilian is simply a blanket term to cover many races: at 1st level, the Reptilian chooses its specific race from the choices below.
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    Lizardfolk: A lizardfolk gains +2 strength, 30 ft. swim speed, the hold breath ability, and a bonus to hide checks in swamps, lagoons, and other marshy areas, as well as while submerged in water, equal to 1/2 his HD. In addition, he gains Hide in Plain Sight while in murky water (essentially any water that isn't totally clear).
    Poison Dusk: The Poison Dusk Reptilian gains +2 dexterity, the slight build ability, and a bonus to hide checks equal to 1/2 HD. When hiding, he may take a full round action to double this number.
    Blackscale: The Blackscale Reptilian gains +2 strength and may wield weapons one step larger than its size without penalty.
    Troglodyte: The Troglodyte gains an additional +2 constitution, a bonus to hide checks in rocky or subterranean areas equal to 1/2 HD, and the stench (ex) ability: As a free action no more than once per 10 minutes, the troglodyte can release a foul smelling musk from his hide. All living creatures but troglodytes within 30' must succeed on a DC (10+1/2 HD+con mod) fort save or be sickened for a number of rounds equal to the troglodyte's HD. If the opponent fails their save by 5 or more, they are instead nauseated for this duration.


    Ability Score Increase: The Reptilian gains +2 con, in addition to its ability score bonus from Species.


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    Woo. Reptilians. Another 1 level class, I balanced this one against the gnoll: I think it holds up okay.
    Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2010-08-05 at 01:40 PM.
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  21. - Top - End - #1191
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    I like the reptilians. Blackscales are actually playable now, and the normal version isn't nearly as bad anymore. Plus Troglodytes are good now.

    I approve.

    The only possible balance issue I can see is the Poison dusk getting a rather big hide modifier for a first level character.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    I wonder if Lizardfolk isn't disadvantaged compared to the poison dusk lizardfolk.

    Both get a stat bonus.
    Poison Dusk gets a hide bonus of X at all times, and a pretty damn useful special ability.
    Lizardfolk get a conditional hide bonus of X in niche situations, and a niche ability.

    Barring an aquatic campaign, is there really a compelling reason to use Lizardfolk over poison dusk?

    Also, it seems just a little out of place that the reptilian's natural attacks are claw primary (½ str) and bite secondary (Full str bonus). What I've read on natural weapons suggests the bite would be their primary weapon.

    And darn, I had Troglodyte as one of the classes I have half written up (Alongside Cloud Giant revision, Bugbear, Kuo-Toa and one template concept).
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-08-04 at 11:20 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubi View Post
    The only possible balance issue I can see is the Poison dusk getting a rather big hide modifier for a first level character.
    Less than a kobold: that's just their schtick, hiding.

    My only concern is that blackscale will be taken every time over a standard lizardfolk. Yes, wielding large weapons is that much better than a myriad of flavorful abilities.

    @Hyudra: You take lizardfolk if you want damage, or the swim speed. Poison dusk are powerful, but you don't take it if you want a melee type.

    And, well, pretty much every reptilian has the claw as their primary natural attack. It's silly, but I'm willing to keep that: claws are cooler, anyways.
    Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2010-08-04 at 11:22 PM.
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    Kuo-Toa


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    HD: D8
    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will |Special
    1st|+0|+0|+0|+2| Kuo-Toa Body, Slime, +2 Dex/Wis/Con
    2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3| Fish Eye, Gibbering Worship, +2 Dex/Wis/Con
    [/table]
    Skill Points 6+Int per level
    Class Skill: Climb, Craft (Any), Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (Dungeoneering, Nature, Religion), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Swim, Use Magic Device.

    Proficiencies: Kuo Toans are proficient with simple and martial weapons and shields, but not tower shields.

    Kuo-Toa Body: The Kuo-Toa loses all other racial bonuses, and acquires Monstrous Humanoid traits (including Darkvision 60'), with the aquatic subtype. Kuo-Toa are medium sized creatures with 20' land movement and a 50' swim speed. Kuo Toans are amphibious and can survive indefinitely on land. They have a racial bonus to Escape Artist equal to ½ their HD, a racial bonus to Spot equal to ¼ their HD, and Natural Armor equal to their Con bonus.

    Kuo-Toans speak Kuo-Toan, Undercommon and Aquan, and can speak additional languages with high Int scores, as normal.

    Ability Score Increase: The Kuo-Toan gets its choice of +2 Dex, +2 Con or +2 Wis at 1st level. Whatever it chooses at first level, it can't make the same choice when it takes the second level in the class.

    Slime: Kuo-Toans exude a slime from their pores. This allows them to take 10 on escape artist checks even in dangerous situations, provided they are not making the check against a living foe (as in a grapple). Should a Kuo-Toa take a second level in this class, they may take 20.

    The slime has a number of minor practical applications, and can be changed into a strong binding agent. The DC for all Slime-relevant saves is 10 + ½ the Kuo-Toan's HD + the Kuo-Toan's Con. They may accumulate enough slime to make one such item a day, plus one additional item for every 4HD they have.
    • With at least 12g in ingredients, a Kuo-Toa can use their slime to produce an object with the qualities of a tanglefoot bag.
    • With 20g in components, the Kuo-Toan can make an adhesive that can be applied to a shield, forcing opponents who roll under the Kuo-Toan's flatfooted AC to make a reflex save or be disarmed with their weapon stuck to the shield. Alternately, adhesive can be spread over a 20' area by hand, at which point opponents who walk into it become entangled.
    • With 600g in components, the Kuo-Toan can produce a nonmagical glue that acts much like sovereign glue, though glued objects can come apart with a strength check in 3d6 days, with a -2 to the DC for every day thereafter

    In place of gold, the Kuo-Toan can make a survival check, a knowledge nature check or a knowledge dungeoneering check and spend 1d4+1 hours searching to gather the components. It may not take 20. The DC for the search is 15, and for each point the Kuo-Toa gets over 15, it may collect 10g in components. These components have no value outside of the creation of these items, and no merchants are liable to buy either the components or the created items.

    Fish Eye: Kuo-Toa can see invisible and ethereal foes, but only if the foes are actively moving.

    Gibbering Worship: Kuo-Toa are a dying race, and cling desperately to the hope that their mad and incomprehensible gods will return them to their place of glory. Even those Kuo-Toa who reject their culture tend to gravitate towards religion.

    Pick two of the domains from the list below. The Kuo-Toa has the spells per day of a sorcerer with a number of levels equal to the Kuo-Toa's HD. The Kuo-Toa may cast any spells from the domain with a spell level equal to or less than its HD as SLAs. The Kuo-Toa does get the domain benefits from the domains it selects:
    • Cavern (FR p62)
    • Darkness (FR p62)
    • Decay (Eb p105)
    • Evil (SRD)
    • Madness (CDiv p139, Eb p107)
    • Slime (PGF p91)
    • Suffering (PGF p91)
    • Water (SRD)
    • Watery Death (PGF p92)
    • Wrath (BoED p97)

    Should the Kuo-Toa take levels in a divine spellcasting class, it may elect to have its Monster Class & Kuo-Toa levels stack for the purposes of determining CL and spells per day. This does not apply retroactively; An 2nd level Kuo-Toa acquiring one level of cleric would gain the spells per day it would have gained going from 2nd level cleric to 3rd level cleric, but wouldn't retroactively gain the spell options of a 1st level cleric.
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    I wanted to tweak these guys some more, but I figured it'd be better to post it earlier than to risk someone else beating me to the punch. I think I might return to them at a later date to try and emphasize the Mythos aspect of them (There's the undertone of despair to their culture, they're lurking in dark underwater caves and sunken kingdoms, they worship primeval gods with unpronounceable names and they're fish people, which makes me think innsmouth.) When I return to them, I want to figure out a way to encourage Kuo-Toa players to hang out in damp, murky areas and stick to the dark, without actively penalizing them, and to just build on that flavor I mentioned, above.

    Anyways, I think they're pretty playable. They get some utility with their slime, and some with their spells. The second level in the class is more to do with the 'whip' described in the monster manual, than anything else, so just take the 1st level if you want a Kuo-Toa rogue and 2nd level if you want the cleric-ish whip.
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    None yet.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-08-05 at 01:21 AM.

  25. - Top - End - #1195
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Two things.
    1. You say skills again after "Class skills"
    2. The Natural armor of the Kuo-toa says it's equal to their Con

    Well, I'm bored and can't decide on a feat for my character so have a (Possibly poorly done) Gargoyle.



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    HD: D8
    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will |Special
    1st|+1|+0|+2|+2| Gargoyle Body, +1 Con,
    2nd|+2|+0|+3|+3| Stone form, +1 Con
    3rd|+3|+1|+3|+3| Stone Shell, +1 Con
    4th|+4|+1|+4|+4| Stone Wings, +1 Con
    [/table]

    Skill points
    2+int modifier per level.
    Class skills: Hide, Listen, Spot


    Gargoyle Body: The Gargoyle loses all other racial bonuses and acquires monstrous humanoid traits (Basically, darkvision 60 feet) and the earth subtype. Gargoyles are medium sized creatures with a 40 foot base land speed. In addition, the gargoyle gains 2 primary claw attacks and a secondary bite attack for 1d4+Str mod and 1d6+1/2 Str mod respectively.

    In addition, the Gargoyle gains a natural armor bonus equal to his Constitution modifier.

    StoneformEx. At second level the Gargoyle becomes more adept at concealing itself. The Gargoyle can Transform into natural stone to blend in with its surrounding . An observer must succeed on a spot check with a DC equal to 10+HD to determine the stone is actually a gargoyle.

    Stone shell: At Third level the Gargoyle gains DR/Magic equal to half its HD and it can now bypass DR/Magic with its natural attacks. In addition it gains a gore attack as a secondary attack for 1d6+1/2 Str mod.

    Stone wings: At 4th level the Gargoyle gains a fly speed of 60 feet with average maneuverability. The speed does not increase.

    The Player can instead choose to gain the aquatic subtype at first level and a swim speed at 4th level for aquatic campaigns.


    Edit: some last minute changes.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2010-08-05 at 01:37 AM.
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  26. - Top - End - #1196
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    Hyudra's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    The trouble I perceive with the gargoyle is that it's terribly passive. It doesn't get to do anything except, what, full attack, standard attack? Maybe a maneuver here or there?

    Its skills are very minimalist, all things considered, and it could stand to have an expanded list & more skill points.

    At second level, on the table, you have a +1 but nothing after it. (+1 +1 Con)

    Freeze needs a better name (It's misleading), and could stand to have the gargoyle emulate natural rock, rather than have the "suspend your disbelief" nature of them appearing like a statue in plain sight where foes are looking for it & having people be fooled (or, alternately, having it be utterly useless).

    It's terribly underpowered, and needs something of a buff. As it stands, it doesn't even scale.

  27. - Top - End - #1197
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Frog Dragon:Very good overall of the arcanoloth but 15th level kinda empty.
    I basically ran out of ideas there and thought one abilityless level wasn't going to kill the monster.
    Frog in the playground.

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    I have Str 5!

    Quote Originally Posted by BobVosh View Post
    Wall of text attacks! CRITS!

  28. - Top - End - #1198
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Dead levels make Flumphs cry. Don't make Flumphs cry.

    Think flavor. What does the Arcanaloth do in the lower planes? They're scribes, record keepers, merchants and businessmen. Sometimes they are governors (reaching into earlier editions there). Key elements there are manipulation, knowledge, words and more words.

    Just brainstorming, what if you gave him the ability to corrupt words? Like, he can touch a written work and change it so it spreads misinformation, misleads or outright lies. Whatever he wants. It might be keyed off of forgery, but the basic idea would be that it would let the Arcanaloth turn scrolls, spellbooks and symbols to his own purposes. As a touch attack against a spellcaster, he could corrupt their spellbook. With a bluff check, he might even do it without their knowledge.

    What would this do? Maybe a suggestion effect, or a geas, or something like making a set number of spells have unintended effects until the wizard/archivist figures out what's what. In simpler terms, it would work like a curse spell. If you feel the Arcanaloth is viable as a class (and I can't pass verdict here, it's a mess as written, and I can't interpret it), then it's a thematic ability that works as an adventure seed (If the Arcanaloth is a player, using the ability on the big bad is a story element. If he's a monster you're throwing at the group, well, it's just lulzy.)
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-08-05 at 01:54 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #1199
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Well, basically, it's a sorcerer at -2 casting, better HD, saves and a ton of class features.
    Frog in the playground.

    My homebrewer's extended signature.

    I have Str 5!

    Quote Originally Posted by BobVosh View Post
    Wall of text attacks! CRITS!

  30. - Top - End - #1200

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Hyudra:Fantastic job with the new raging blood! Just one thing still bugging me, why doesn't the reflective hide scale? It's good when it starts but when you reach high level and the oponent starts flinging 9th level spells you're not even assured to block one.

    The wyvern however looks perfect as it is, gonna add it to the list.

    The Kuo-Toa is a more exotic take but still I can't find problems with it now so gonna add it as well. You're on a roll again there!


    Crafty Cultist:
    That's just the mutants. Make a prc for it if you want.

    Also I'm reminded of another important purpose on this project. We don't want to pidgeon-hole roles to the race too much. What if somebody wants to play a male Sahuagin spellcaster or female Sahuagin warrior? Please make it like the gnoll, divide the monster in two "paths" and let the player choose what he wants to be. PCs are suposed to be exceptional inidividuals after all and shouldn't be tied down by tradition. And again human hate isn't that particularly usefull in a campaign.

    Gorgondantess:Good stuff with the reptilians but the poisondusk's hide ability needs some clarifying. If you use a fullround action how long does it last? Can you still hide when you do it?

    Kyuubi:Gargoyle whitout proefeciencies. Also like Hyudra said could use some custom special ability. Or bonus feats. Also a couple more skill points wouldn't hurt.

    Frog Dragon:
    Speaking of class features that poison could use some scaling.

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