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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Another fighter variant [3.5] PEACH

    Whee. Another fighter thread.
    Ok, I'm brainstorming some stuff about class balance. I had several ideas these past months, and discarded most of them. I'm currently working on my Forty Eight project, and for that, I'm reworking most of the classes, using some old ideas, and ideas I picked around.

    Details on the reason for this variant. TL;DR: I'm making the weaker classes stronger, and adding new classes.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Basic premise: For each "power source" (martial, divine, arcane), I'm selecting a whole set of classes based on the "combat roles" (while still trying to keep the game's simulationism), inspired in 4e.

    For example, the group I'm going to play likes to go mostly martial. They make up the lack of casters by spending lots of gold on magic itens, or hiring npc casters, and when facing rogue-like stuff, they just hope to have enough HP.
    So, I want to have enough classes to fill in each type of role, starting with fighter, monk, rogue, (spell-less) ranger, and barbarian as the default classes, and adding more stuff.

    My ideas thus far:
    * Defenders (high resistance, moderate to high attack, low to medium utility):
    - Fighters
    - Knight
    - Crusader (a non-TOB variation)
    * Strikers (low to medium resistance, high attack, medium to high utility):
    - Rogue
    - Ranger (I'm using the Ultimate Ranger version: http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php...ltimate_Ranger )
    - Barbarian
    * Controllers (variant levels of attack and defense, high utlity, mostly debuffers and/or battlefield controllers)
    - Monk (I'm using Fax's version: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98238 )
    - ???
    - ???
    * Leaders (variant levels of attack and defense, high utlity, mostly buffers and/or healers)
    - Marshal (make it more like 4e's warlord)
    - ???
    - ???

    Ideally, each source/role, should have enough classes to make each "group" be very varied inside a group, and each source be playable by itself.
    In my group's example, they've been lacking healing, but no one is very interested in playing a cleric, druid, or even paladin, so I want to give them enough variants so they can choose what plays better for them.

    About Tome of Battle: At first I was tempted to add it, but I didn't want to make the characters even move complex, with keeping track of maneuvers, uses/encounters, and all that, in the same way that I choose against using spell point (much more freedom, but it gets to geek levels that not everyone is willing to use). I may just allow the use of the Martial Stance, and Martial Study as ways to learn maneuvers, without full sublime classes.

    That said, back to the peaching

    This fighter's variant gets the following changes:
    * More skill points: 4 instead of 2, adding some needed skills so he's not useless outside combat.
    * Added average save progression for reflex.
    * General change for base attack bonus, so the iterative attacks are not listed in this table.
    * Weapon Specialization: Instead of wasting feats into a useless feat chain, I turned it into class features. Fighters gain bonuses to weapon fighting, spreading these bonuses over several kinds of weapons, making him both an expert into a single weapon, and versatile with many other weapons.
    * Battle Specialization: I added some abilities that increase his mobility in combat, like reducing skill and speed penalties. Also, I nabbed the WarBlade's battle abilities that adds Inteligence positive modifier to some rolls, rewarding high Int fighters, and encouraging more use of tactical positioning.

    The Fighter
    Alignment: Any.
    Hit Die: d10.

    Class Skills
    The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), Swim (Str), Heal (Wis), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (local)(Int), Knowledge(geography)(Int), and Profession (Wis).
    Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x4.
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

    {table=head]Level| Base[BR]Attack[BR]Bonus|Fort[BR]save|Ref[BR]save|Will[BR]save|Special
    1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Bonus feat, weapon specialization(1st), combat specialization(1st)
    2nd|+2|+3|+1|+0|Bonus feat
    3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|weapon specialization(2nd)
    4th|+4|+4|+2|+1|Bonus feat
    5th|+5|+4|+2|+1 |Battle specialization(2nd)
    6th|+6|+5|+3|+2|Bonus feat
    7th|+7|+5|+3|+2|weapon specialization(3rd)
    8th|+8|+6|+4|+2|Bonus feat
    9th|+9|+6|+4|+3|Battle specialization(3rd)
    10th|+10|+7|+5|+3|Bonus feat
    11th|+11|+7|+5|+3|weapon specialization(4th)
    12th|+12|+8|+5|+4|Bonus feat
    13th|+13|+8|+6|+4|Battle specialization(4th)
    14th|+14|+9|+6|+4|Bonus feat
    15th|+15|+9|+7|+5|weapon specialization(5th)
    16th|+16|+10|+7|+5|Bonus feat
    17th|+17|+10|+7|+5|Battle specialization(5th)
    18th|+18|+11|+8|+6|Bonus feat
    19th|+19|+11|+8|+6|weapon specialization(6th)
    20th|+20|+12|+9|+6|Bonus feat, battle specialization(6th)[/table]

    Class Features
    All of the following are class features of the fighter.
    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, light) and shields.
    Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.
    These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.
    Weapon specialization: As the fighter gains level, he gains special knowledge and skills with armed combat, compensating his lack of magic aid or pure brute strength with specially focalized strikes. The bonuses gained with this ability is a competence bonus that stacks with each other, but not with competence bonus from other sources, and works only for weapons he's proficient with. All Weapon Specialization abilities are (Ex) abilities.
    For example, a 20th level fighter that choose martial, 1-handed, slashing, and long sword, will gain a +5 competence bonus to attack and damage rolls when using a long sword, a +4 when using a battle axe, and just a +1 when using a short spear (puncturing, 2-handed, simple).
    Adaptability: At 1st level, the fighter takes only a -2 penalty when using a weapon he's not proficient with, or when using improvised weapons. This ability doesn't give any additional proficiency with any weapon beyond the ones he's already is proficient with.
    General: At 3rd level, the fighter gains a +1 bonus to all his attack and damage rolls with any weapon he's proficient with.
    Proficiency: At 7th level, the fighter must choose a type of weapon proficiency (simple, martial, exotic). Whenever using weapons of that type, he gains a +1 bonus to all his attack and damage rolls with any weapon of that type.
    Size: At 11th level, the fighter must choose a type of weapon size (light, 1-handed, 2-handed). Whenever using weapons of that type, he gains a +1 bonus to all his attack and damage rolls with any weapon of that type.
    Damage: At 15th level, the fighter must choose a type of weapon damage (slashing, bludgeonin, puncturing. optionally, he can choose ranged weapons (including thrown and project weapons), or unarmed (including natural attacks)). Whenever using weapons of that type, he gains a +1 bonus to all his attack and damage rolls with any weapon of that type.
    Supremacy: At 19th level, the fighter must choose a single weapon. He gains a +1 bonus to all his attack and damage rolls with the selected weapon.
    Battle specialization: The fighter uses skill, training, and cunning to overcome some movement limitations in the battlefield.
    He also uses his skills to seek openings in his opponent's moves to gain additional tactical advantages. These bonuses are insight bonuses that doesn't stack with each other, and are not lost when the fighter is caught flatfooted or flanked, but are lost if he's dazzed, immobilized, or otherwise helpless. All the Battle Specialization abilities are (Ex) abilties.
    Skill penalty: At 1st level, the fighter halves all skill check penalties (negatives rounded down, i.e. a -5 becomes -3) of any armor and shield he wields, including the attack penalty for using armors or shields he's not proficient with.
    Mobility: At 1st level, the fighter adds his positive Inteligence modifier (if any) as a insight bonus to his AC against attacks or opportunity.
    Double step: At 5th level, the fighter can make a 10 ft adjustment move instead of 5 ft.
    Critical: At 5th level, the fighter adds his positive Inteligence modifier (if any) as a insight bonus to his attack roll to confirm critical hits.
    Reach: At 9th level, the fighter's reach with any weapon he's proficient with increases in 5ft.
    Damage: At 9th level, the fighter adds his positive Inteligence modifier (if any) as a insight bonus to damage rolls against flatfooted or flanked enemies.
    Double strike: At 13th level, the fighter can make two attacks as a default attack action, or at the end of a charge, with each weapon he would usually use at once. The 2nd attack is made at his highest base attack bonus, albeit at a -5 penalty. If he can make a full attack, he can, instead, choose to make only 2 attacks, both made at his full base attack bonus.
    Opposed: At 13th level, the fighter adds his positive Inteligence modifier (if any) as a insight bonus to his opposed rolls (bull rush, disarm, feint, overrun, sunder, or trip).
    Terrain: At 17th level, the fighter ignores terrain penalties, and treats his armor as one size category lighter for movement purposes (heavy counts a medium, medium counts as light, light armor is unafected). This ability doesn't stacks with others similar effects, like wearing mithril armor.
    Opportunity: At 17th level, the fighter adds his positive Inteligence modifier (if any) as a insight bonus to all his attack and damage rolls when making attacks of opportunity
    Veteran: At 20th level, the fighter ignores skill check penalties from his armor and shields he's proficient with (attack penalty for using armors or shields he's not proficient with is still only halved). Additionally, any attack targeting the fighter has a 5% miss change for each point of armor bonus to AC he has, up to 50%. This bonus doesn't stack with other miss chance effects like being invisible, or attacking an enemy that can't see him.
    Overwhelming: At 20th level, can ignore an opponent's damage reduction's value up to his inteligence modifier or up to the target's DR, whichever is higher, or ignore 5% of miss chance for each point of Inteligence positive modifier (up to 50% or the target's total miss chance). Every time he attacks, he chooses one of those effects, not both.

    So, anyone willing to take a look at it, and say if any ability is "meh", "alright", "strong/broken if well optmized", or "holy overpowered, Batman!" opinions?

    Also, here's some ideas for combat I'll use with my group:
    Spoiler
    Show

    New combat options:

    Single attack: Any action that allows you to make an attack roll, with or without a weapon. Any bonus or penalty is given by the action that allow you to make the attack roll.

    Default attack action: A normal default action that allows you to do a single attack during a round, leaving your other round's default action to do anything else, like move, or activate an item (that doesn't require an attack action). You add a bonus to damage rolls if you have an high base attack bonus:
    +6 to +10: +2 to damage rolls.
    +11 to +15: +4 to damage rolls.
    +16 to +20: +6 to damage rolls.

    Full attack action: A full round attack routine, that gives you extra attacks if you have high base attack bonus.
    +6 to +10: 1 extra attack with a -5 penalty.
    +11 to +15: 2 extra attack with a -5 and -10 penalties, respectively.
    +16 to +20: 3 extra attack with a -5, -10, and -15 penalties, respectively .

    Charge: A full round action attack action. You must move a minimum of 10ft, and can run to up to twice your full movement speed in a straight line through an unimpeded area (without big objects, enemies, or difficult terrain), making a single attack with your weapon at the end of the charge. This attack receives a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls. You suffer a -2 penalty to your Defense until the beggining of your next turn.

    Push: A character that makes an attack of opportunity against an enemy can, instead of dealing damage, push him 1 square back. The character can't move to the enemy's old position. If the AoO was provoked by a move action, the enemy, instead, finishes that round's movement wherever he was when he was attacked.

    Light Weapons: when using a light weapon, you can use your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier to attack rolls. When doing so, you don't add your strength modifier to the damage roll (but penalties do apply). Some weapons, like rapier, can be used this way, despite not being light weapons.

    Strong Attack: Any character can, as a free action, take a -1 penalty to his attack roll, up to his base attack bonus and no higher than 5, and add +1 to his damage roll. This change affects all his attack rolls until the beggining of his next turn.

    Fighting Defensively: Any character can, as a free action, take a -1 penalty to his attack roll, up to his base attack bonus and no higher than 5, and add +1 to his Armor Class. This change affects all his attack rolls until the beggining of his next turn.

    Fighting with two weapons: When using a weapon on your off-hand, you can make a second attack with your off-hand weapon at your highest base attack bonus once per round. All attack rolls made in that round are made at -4 penalty. If the off-hand is a light weapon, the penalty reduces to -2.

    And some feats:
    Weapon finesse:[Combat]
    Requisite: Dex 13+
    Benefit: When using a light weapon using your Dexterity to attack rolls, you can also apply your Dexterity modifier to the damage rolls. Strength penalties no longer apply.

    Dodge: [Combat]
    Requisite: Dex 13+
    Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC. Once per round, you can, as a free action, designate an opponent. You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC for every 5 levels (maximum +4, +5 with the initial bonus) against that oponent. Alternatively, You can, as an immediate action, change the chosen opponent, as long as you don't choose one opponent as a free action in the beggining of your turn.

    Combat Expertize: [Combat]
    Requisite: Int 13+, base attack bonus +1
    Benefit:You no longer suffers attacks of opportunity when initating tripping, disarm, or feint maneuvers. You also gain a +1 bonus to your attack or opposed rolls when making these maneuvers, +1 point for every 6 point of attack base bonus (maximum +4).
    Normal: You provoke attacks of opportunity when initiating tripping, disarm, or feint maneuvers (except when they are done as your attack of opportunity, or when using some special weapons).

    Power Attack: [Combat]
    Requisite: Str 13+
    Benefit:You can take a -2 penalty to your attack roll to add +1d6 points of damage on your attack. You can take a maximum penalty equal to your base attack bonus (minimum -2, even with Base Attack Bonus +0 or +1), adding +1d6 for each -2.
    Special: When using a two handed weapon, you deal +1d8 points of damage for each -2 penalty to your attack roll instead of +1d6. When using a light weapon, you deal +1d4 points of damage for each -2 penalty you take to your attack roll instead of +1d6.

    Two-Weapon Fighting: [Combat]
    Requisite: Dex 13+, base attack bonus +1
    Benefit:When using a off-hand weapon, you can make 1 attack with your off-hand weapon for each attack you can normally do with your main weapon that round, with the same base attack bonus. All attack rolls made in that round are made at -2 penalty. If the off-hand is a light weapon, the penalty reduces to 0.
    Normal: You gain only one attack with your off-hand weapon, and you take a -4 penalty when fighting with 2 weapons, -2 if one of the weapons is light.

    Point Blank Shot: [Combat]
    Requisite: Dex 13+, base attack bonus +1
    Benefit: You gain a +1 bonu to your attack rolls with ranged weapons for every 6 points of attack base bonus (maximum +1), and a +1 bonus to your damage rolls with ranged weapons as long as you are within 30 ft of the target. You also don't need to take the -4 penalty to your attack roll to avoid acidentally hitting a nearby ally in case of a miss.
    Normal: When shooting an enemy engaged to an ally, you need to take a -4 penalty to your attack roll, or risk a 50% chance to attack your ally instead.

    Skill Focus: [General]
    Benefit: You gain +2 bonus to your check's rolls, plus +1 for every 6 ranks in the skill, rounded up (maximum +6)

    Iron Will: [General]
    Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to your Will Save checks, plus +1 for every 6 character levels, rounded up (maximum +4)

    Lightining Reflexes: [General]
    Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to your Reflex Save checks, plus +1 for every 6 character levels, rounded up (maximum +6)

    Great Fortitude: [General]
    Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to your Fort Save checks, plus +1 for every 6 character levels, rounded up (maximum +4)

    Skills:

    Tumble: The DC for the tumble check to avoid AoO is equal to 15 + base attack bonus of the enemy he is trying to avoid. If more than one enemy threatens the way, make a check against the highest BAB, and add +2 for each enemy after the first.


    Member of the Hinjo fan club. Go Hinjo!
    "In Soviet Russia, the Darkness attacks you."
    My friend's quote: "Rogues not only have a lot more skill points, but sneak attack is so good it hurts..."
    Class variant:Fighter
    Fun Stuff:Mushrooms

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Another fighter variant [3.5] PEACH

    Granting 4 skills/level is easily defensible. But since you mentioned ToB, how about we add Martial Lore to class skills?

    Average saves? Honestly, I've never heard of it. Its interesting, but is it necessary? If your home-brew world employs this for its classes, then I think its also defensible.

    The Weapon Specialization concept is intriguing, but it needs another name. There's already weapon specialization, and its a feat only fighters can take (or ToB characters), so its somewhat confusing.

    Battle Specialization. Very creative. But did you just give the FTR an extra 5-ft reach at 9th level? Seems a bit strong. Also, giving two abilities for every level a FTR gets battle specialization is a bit much, not so much in terms of power but just in terms of a FTR keeping track of what the character can do.

    I would also say think about how complicated the NPC FTR just became. As a DM, I'd be worried about that. I know it my games, where players often take ToB or at least Duskblade, my adapted FTRs (yes, I've tweaked the class, too) are often guards, while WARs are only a class for conscripts and monstrous races.

    Simplicity is your friend. In terms of balance, I think this FTR can now run with some of the ToB martial classes.

    My recommendation would be to allow FTRs to choose between one of two Battle Specializations each time it can acquire a new Battle Specialization ability. I might suggest dumping the Reach power, offering Double Step at 9th, and allowing a Battle Specialization option at 5th where the FTR begins advancing at full initiator level (so at level 5, 3rd initiator level, but at level 10, 8th initiator level, instead of just 1/2 initiator). In effect, this will (a) keep the class moderately powerful, (b) lighten the character sheet a bit, (c) allow an easy choice for FTRs, namely, if a FTR goes with higher INT, he can take Mobility, Critical, Damage, Opposed, etc, but allowing those without a high INT to take the other tree, which thus (d) makes it simpler and quicker to design NPC FTRs.

    Just some food for thought.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Another fighter variant [3.5] PEACH

    A friend said it had too much class features too. I may just ditch one of the abilities (or let a player pick one, like a combat style, like you said, it's a good idea). I'd say that increased reach is strong, but unbalanced. Many threads mention the ability to reach enemies as a necessity.

    I simply called that ability Weapon Specialization because I removed the same-name feat.

    I saw average saves in some places. I made average Reflex for fighters and will make average will for paladins and crusaders (non-tob). Maybe nerf druids and cleric's Fort to average too.

    I actually am avoiding ToB initiator mechanics, maybe using that variation somewhere in this board, that uses simple feats to reproduce them, but it's still an interesting idea for the battle specialization.

    Thanks for the review.

    Member of the Hinjo fan club. Go Hinjo!
    "In Soviet Russia, the Darkness attacks you."
    My friend's quote: "Rogues not only have a lot more skill points, but sneak attack is so good it hurts..."
    Class variant:Fighter
    Fun Stuff:Mushrooms

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Another fighter variant [3.5] PEACH

    I saw average saves in some places. I made average Reflex for fighters and will make average will for paladins and crusaders (non-tob). Maybe nerf druids and cleric's Fort to average too.
    I think a case can be made for average Relfex for FTRs, but even more than your nerf of druids and clerics, it would be more of a balance case than a thematic one. Average will for paladins makes sense.

    I actually am avoiding ToB initiator mechanics
    I guess that makes sense. I love ToB. But of course I had to fix Iron Heart Surge (it now only allows a personal dispel check, complete with a dispel roll based on initiator level, but only on hostile effects). On the downside, it makes combat more complicated. But it also makes playing a melee character more like playing a spellcaster.

    I simply called that ability Weapon Specialization because I removed the same-name feat.
    Ah. Well, what about those of us who like your variant but don't want to get rid of Weapon Specialization? Have you even put any thought into what comes of us?

    I'd say that increased reach is strong, but unbalanced. Many threads mention the ability to reach enemies as a necessity.
    Well, maybe you're right.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Another fighter variant [3.5] PEACH

    To be truthful, I didn't plan to make this much complex. It was a small variant to make weapon specialization a bit easier to use, since it takes several feats to get a few bonuses to a single weapon. Ideally, your fighter gains combat bonuses to several weapons, so he doesn't get screwed if he loses his weapon of choice. These bonus would then replace the weapon specialization feat. With the normal selection, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greated Weapon Specialization, Weapon Mastery, and Weapon Supremacy would give you a +4 attack, +6 damage with a weapon (and +2 to attack/damage with a weapon type). My variant gives all those bonus (ranging from +1 to +5), and freeing these feats.

    The feats that have weapon mastery as requisite (Slash flurry, etc) may just be changed to have these class features as requisites (may switch Size and Damage on the list's order), and maybe have Weapon Supremacy be applied on your weapon of choice.

    Thinking about the Battle Mastery, I'm thinking something like, you can choose between three abilities: tactical mastery (Int bonus to the indicated situations), logistic mastery (extra attacks, armor penalties reduced, reach, speed, etc), and maneuver mastery (can learn ToB maneuvers as a warblade with half your fighter's levels). I will run these changes through my players next time we play.

    Member of the Hinjo fan club. Go Hinjo!
    "In Soviet Russia, the Darkness attacks you."
    My friend's quote: "Rogues not only have a lot more skill points, but sneak attack is so good it hurts..."
    Class variant:Fighter
    Fun Stuff:Mushrooms

  6. - Top - End - #6
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    For Valor's Avatar

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    Default Re: Another fighter variant [3.5] PEACH

    The only things this seems to do is make fighters better at attacking with one weapon... which is what they do anyway. It doesn't improve the flexibility of the fighter, instead encouraging whoever plays a fighter to "spec. moar", which is honestly the reason we dislike fighters in the first place.

    The Bonus feats and "I'm good at weapons" stuff should be additional to something bigger, like stat boosts, extra actions, battle maneuverability, or something. Either that, or we make the fighter a 5-level dip class.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Another fighter variant [3.5] PEACH

    The idea here is to free up the fighter's feats from the "better at attacking" fighter-only feats, that are both weak and limiting (a whole set of feats for a singleweapon). This gives bonus to weapon groups (lost your sword? pick an axe for a slightly smaller bonus).
    Since he was lacking class features and had all those dead levels, I used it as actual class features instead of feats. Not a perfect fix, just a simple power-up.

    The other bonuses gives a few bonuses that fighter lacks. Int bonus to the indicated abilities allow him to move throgh the battlefield, flank better, use better attacks of opportunity, become more noticeable and controlling. And the other combat abilities should increase his "reach" and "mobility" over the battle field, allowing better controlling opportunities.

    But since Pathfinder already have something like those, and better, I stopped working on it for real.

    Member of the Hinjo fan club. Go Hinjo!
    "In Soviet Russia, the Darkness attacks you."
    My friend's quote: "Rogues not only have a lot more skill points, but sneak attack is so good it hurts..."
    Class variant:Fighter
    Fun Stuff:Mushrooms

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