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    Default Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    Do you think this is a balanced invulnerability spell?

    Form of Force
    Evocation [force]
    Level: Sor/Wiz 9
    Components: V, S, M
    Casting Time: One standard action
    Range: Touch
    Target: One creature
    Duration: 1 round/level
    Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
    Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

    The subject and their equipment becomes made out of pure force, making them invisible and unable to take hitpoint damage or be healed by any source. They no longer need to breathe, and gain immunity to poison, stunning, disease, petrification, polymorph, and vorpal attacks. Their equipment is also invulnerable. Any item they drop, or ammunition they fire, is no longer made of force, nor do new items they pick up turn to force. Their body and equipment extends to the ethereal plane, and they can see and interact with incorporeal and ethereal creatures and objects. The subject can still be killed by methods other than hitpoint damage, such as a finger of death or a wail of the banshee. A disintegrate spell allows its caster to make a dispel check against form of force as if casting greater dispel magic; if successful form of force ends and the subject is affected by the disintegrate spell as normal.

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    Last edited by Lysander; 2010-03-07 at 11:04 AM.

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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    Sounds about right, and 9th level is a little short on defensive spells.

    Should explicitly specify that melee weapons can hit etherial creatures.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2010-03-04 at 07:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    Note: you need to add (Harmless) to the SR line, or you have to make an SR check to cast it on yourself (if you have SR, of course), and that's just silly.

    Also, I personally like it. It doesn't seem to fix anything though, since at high-end play, hp damage isn't the main way stuff happens really, but it's nice and fun. I'd probably use it.

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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    I figure it's a good spell to cast on your party's meatshield rather than casting it on yourself. Cast Protection From Evil, Freedom of Movement, Protection from Spells, and Form of Force on them and they're nigh unstoppable.

    While its a protection spell I made it evocation rather than abjuration since it uses force. Plus, evocation can use better high levels spells.

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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    And Shield is Abjuration and Mage Armor is (bizarrely) Conjuration. I agree that Evocation needs more high level spells, but I dunno. Abjuration really seems appropriate for this.

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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    So what can a fighter or barbarian do to defeat a wizard using this spell? Other than resorting to UMD or his friends? Perhaps make a weapon enhancement, +4 or so, that allows your weapon to destroy things made of force? Otherwise I wouldn't really call it balanced in any way.

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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    Really? It's unbalanced because a Fighter or Barbarian can't do anything about it? What do you call.... Fly, Solid Fog, Forcewall, Forcecage, Prismatic Sphere, Contingency, Teleport, Dimension Door, etc etc? There are hundreds of things that Wizards can do to make pure damage dealers useless. That's why Tome of Battle was printed. And at least this is a 9th level spell; a lot of things are about as effective, and aren't.

    Anyway, the answer to your question, really, is trip him.

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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    There are wonderous items or weapons that let you get around a lot of those things. So I feel there should be one for this. Not trying to start a debate here but I don't think that more no-save-and-loses should be put into the game if at all possible.

    Another option could be adding in another feat to the Mage Slayer line which pierces magical damage reduction, including things like this.

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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    The best counter for a fighter really is to run away for 17+ rounds, and be thankful the wizard chose to be invulnerable for two minutes instead of casting time stop.

    Or more seriously, get a magic item like a Mask of the Skull to cast finger of death on them or activate an antimagic torc to suppress the spell.
    Last edited by Lysander; 2010-03-04 at 12:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    Again, trip him, grapple him, sunder or disarm his spell component pouch, if you really must. But really you should just not be a Fighter to begin with. Not if you want to play at 17th level.

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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysander View Post
    The best counter for a fighter really is to run away for 17+ rounds, and be thankful the wizard choose to be invulnerable for two minutes instead of casting time stop.
    You've built a fighter that can run away from a level 17+ Wizard for the same number of rounds? I'm intrigued. 17+ rounds is a LOT of time for the Wizard to either completely destroy you, or summon forth several hosts of angles/demons to do the job for him once you come back.

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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    Nevermind this.
    Last edited by BenTheJester; 2010-03-04 at 12:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_In_Tonic View Post
    You've built a fighter that can run away from a level 17+ Wizard for the same number of rounds? I'm intrigued. 17+ rounds is a LOT of time for the Wizard to either completely destroy you, or summon forth several hosts of angles/demons to do the job for him once you come back.
    Of course I haven't. But at this point the wizard is not going to be killed by a fighter anyway. So the spell isn't balanced vs a pure melee class, the same way level 9 spells in general aren't balanced vs a pure melee class. This spell is really just to limit another caster's options when attacking you, or to turn an ally into an invulnerable warrior.

    So don't think of it in terms of a duel between a wizard and a fighter. Think of it in terms of a wizard and a fighter working together to battle a legion of demons, and the fighter briefly gaining invulnerability while fighting waves of high CR fiends.

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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    If you're making spells with the batman mentality, what are we supposed to balance against? The spell is way more powerful than iron body, way more powerful than epic mage armor, completely invalidates any nonmagical class, and I suppose is comparable in power to prismatic sphere, which most people recognize as broken (see also: IotSV). If that helps.

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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    Except this spell is limited to a 1 round/level duration, as opposed to 1 minute/level for Iron Body, 10 minutes/level for prismatic sphere or 24 hours for Mage Armor. Also, this is actually worse than prismatic sphere because it only makes you immune to damage. You can still be energy drained, dominated, finger of death'd, webbed, paralyzed, etc. Prismatic sphere is also a huge pain to destroy. This just requires dispel magic or an amf, and as a force effect is specifically vulnerable to disintegrate. What this can do that prismatic sphere can't is allow you to remain mobile without worrying about damage for brief encounters. Epic Mage Armor provides less protection, but basically makes you immune to most attacks for the entire day.
    Last edited by Lysander; 2010-03-04 at 01:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Corm View Post
    If you're making spells with the batman mentality, what are we supposed to balance against? The spell is way more powerful than iron body, way more powerful than epic mage armor, completely invalidates any nonmagical class, and I suppose is comparable in power to prismatic sphere, which most people recognize as broken (see also: IotSV). If that helps.
    It's supposed to be balanced against existing 9th level spells. Cuz, ya know, it's a 9th level spell. So yeah, balanced against Prismatic Sphere seems just about right.

    Iot7V isn't overpowered because of Prismatic Sphere, it's overpowered because it always has Prismatic Sphere active. Prismatic Sphere really isn't any more overpowered than most 9th level spells - which is to say, quite overpowered, but that's just the reality of the Wizard.
    Last edited by DragoonWraith; 2010-03-04 at 01:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    Well, in any case, I think it's a very cool spell. Maybe not all that useful in high level combat with mages, but still an interesting [Force] spell, and force could use more stuff. The image of a wizard casting this on a friendly meatshield, who then proceeds to let himself sink through lava, or stroll through pitched combat, or even fall from orbit, totally unscathed, is, I think, 100% badass.
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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    Yeah, that's the idea. It's less useful as a normal combat buff than as a protection against all kinds of wild scenarios like that. It's also useful if you want to have your fighter friend engage an enemy at close range while peppering it with area spells like meteor swarm.

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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    You should really specify whether or not this spell is dispellable. That's a key counter.

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Note: you need to add (Harmless) to the SR line, or you have to make an SR check to cast it on yourself (if you have SR, of course), and that's just silly.

    Also, I personally like it. It doesn't seem to fix anything though, since at high-end play, hp damage isn't the main way stuff happens really, but it's nice and fun. I'd probably use it.
    There's no such thing as SR (harmless). Spells you cast on yourself are never subject to SR. If you cast it on someone else with SR, he must spend a standard action to lower his SR.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonWraith View Post
    Really? It's unbalanced because a Fighter or Barbarian can't do anything about it? What do you call.... Fly, Solid Fog, Forcewall, Forcecage, Prismatic Sphere, Contingency, Teleport, Dimension Door, etc etc? There are hundreds of things that Wizards can do to make pure damage dealers useless. That's why Tome of Battle was printed. And at least this is a 9th level spell; a lot of things are about as effective, and aren't.

    Anyway, the answer to your question, really, is trip him.
    It's actually a valid point. High level fighters can at least get items to fly, teleport and they can get help from the party mage. Unless the mage has disintegrate (and only disintegrate) prepared, they spend the combat asking if they can do something yet. OTOH tripping and grappling is still a good idea. But it would be nice if he had a couple more options. Or maybe if this spell were dispellable, making his actions trip or grapple until the party wizard dispels it.

    Oh, and it doesn't take much optimization at all to get hundreds of damage per round at high levels, even without splatbooks. It's amazing how often optimizers forget about the simplest of magic items.

    EDIT: Oh yeah one more thing. This spell could be brutal if combined with death ward, as it gives you immunity to almost everything else. Make sure it has enough weaknesses.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2010-03-05 at 10:50 AM.
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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    I seem to recall seeing SR (harmless) elsewhere. Perhaps it was a 3.0-->3.5 conversion thing that I'm mixed up on. Thanks for the update though.

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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    Correction, there is SR (harmless), it just doesn't mean what you think it means . IIRC "(harmless)" in general doesn't actually do anything. It's just a comment that the spell is usually beneficial so you probably want to voluntarily fail your save.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2010-03-05 at 10:53 AM.
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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    Correction, there is SR (harmless), it just doesn't mean what you think it means . IIRC "(harmless)" in general doesn't actually do anything. It's just a comment that the spell is usually beneficial so you probably want to voluntarily fail your save.
    Hah! I knew there was! I like adding it, for completeness.

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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    The spell can be dispelled (I didn't note anywhere that it can't be so by default it should be vulnerable), and is also subject to AMF, disjunction, and disintegrate. Hmm...perhaps a Pick of Piercing (magic item that can destroy force object) should also have a chance to end the effect? Maybe allow an attacker using the pick to make a opposed greater dispel check, but using the attacker's BaB in place of caster level? That way a fighter could destroy it with the right item.

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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    I dunno why anyone would feel the need to nerf this spell with dispelling or other weaknesses. It is a LEVEL 9 SPELL. It's meant to be really, really annoying. Compare to wish, gate, imprisonment, PWK, WotB, time stop, etc. And that's just from the Sor/Wiz list. From the SRD alone. This spell is tame in comparrison to the rampant caster-only craziness that those spells can create.

    As stated before, this spell is only good for 1 round per level. That's not very long at all. If I were a 17th+ level wizard, & I wanted some serious protection, I'd consider this a sub-optimal choice. Instead, I'd gate in a solar. Or do time stop & chain together some other buffs. Or shapechange into a dragon, Vaarsuvius-style. Or prismatic sphere myself for a bit while I take a nap. Or get all offensive & just wish my enemies dead. The over-powered options available to a wizard able to cast 9th level spells is sick, & form of force is well-balanced against such options. If anything, it's underpowered. I'd let this fly in a game as an 8th-level spell without batting an eye (then again, my table has a few optimizers).

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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysander View Post
    The best counter for a fighter really is to run away for 17+ rounds, and be thankful the wizard chose to be invulnerable for two minutes instead of casting time stop.

    Or more seriously, get a magic item like a Mask of the Skull to cast finger of death on them or activate an antimagic torc to suppress the spell.
    Or anything with desintegrate, since it affects things made of force.

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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta Kai View Post
    I dunno why anyone would feel the need to nerf this spell with dispelling or other weaknesses. It is a LEVEL 9 SPELL. It's meant to be really, really annoying. Compare to wish, gate, imprisonment, PWK, WotB, time stop, etc. And that's just from the Sor/Wiz list. From the SRD alone. This spell is tame in comparrison to the rampant caster-only craziness that those spells can create.

    As stated before, this spell is only good for 1 round per level. That's not very long at all. If I were a 17th+ level wizard, & I wanted some serious protection, I'd consider this a sub-optimal choice. Instead, I'd gate in a solar. Or do time stop & chain together some other buffs. Or shapechange into a dragon, Vaarsuvius-style. Or prismatic sphere myself for a bit while I take a nap. Or get all offensive & just wish my enemies dead. The over-powered options available to a wizard able to cast 9th level spells is sick, & form of force is well-balanced against such options. If anything, it's underpowered. I'd let this fly in a game as an 8th-level spell without batting an eye (then again, my table has a few optimizers).
    Not to mention that it's a single-target spell.
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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    No one mentioned yet whether you are effectively invisible due to the spell, or that the line that says that is purely fluff.

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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    Quote Originally Posted by Apropos View Post
    No one mentioned yet whether you are effectively invisible due to the spell, or that the line that says that is purely fluff.
    It's pretty clear that you are mechanically invisible.
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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    Quote Originally Posted by Temotei221 View Post
    It's pretty clear that you are mechanically invisible.
    Yeah, considering in the first LINE of the spell, it says "making them invisible" I'm going to go way out on a limb and assume you're invisible.
    Last edited by arguskos; 2010-03-06 at 03:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Form of Force (level 9 evocation)

    Yeah, I meant that the invisibility be functional invisibility. You can't see them. I did that just to copy wall of force and forcecage, which are also invisible.

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