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    Default All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    does anyone have a list that puts all of D&D 3.5 classes into tiers?

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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    bg's is pretty good, no they dont some of the obscure ones classified but most of the classes that get played often are and you can guess some of the ones you don't know from classes that are similar (Psychic rogue is pretty much in line with beguiler, wilder and ardent with psychic warrior, incarnate with rogue, totemist with barbarian)

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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by HCL View Post
    bg's is pretty good, no they dont some of the obscure ones classified but most of the classes that get played often are and you can guess some of the ones you don't know from classes that are similar (Psychic rogue is pretty much in line with beguiler, wilder and ardent with psychic warrior, incarnate with rogue, totemist with barbarian)
    You also have to take ACFs into account. An Ardent with Dominant Ideal and custom mantles is Tier 2 for instance (equal to a Psion), while an Educated Wilder is also ahead of a Psywar.

    The BG list does take this into account for some classes (e.g. Zceryll Binders are a tier ahead of regular ones) but not all of them.

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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by HCL View Post
    bg's is pretty good, no they dont some of the obscure ones classified but most of the classes that get played often are and you can guess some of the ones you don't know from classes that are similar (Psychic rogue is pretty much in line with beguiler, wilder and ardent with psychic warrior, incarnate with rogue, totemist with barbarian)
    Ehh? Ardent is Tier 2 last I checked. And the Totemist is the middle of Tier 3, not Tier 4.

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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    could I have the links please? thanks in advance

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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    There are no real links (besides BG's) - the unlisted classes are just common knowledge, really.

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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    There are no real links (besides BG's) - the unlisted classes are just common knowledge, really.
    More recent version.

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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    The Tier 1s are obvious (spellcasters with large lists and unlimited spells known), the Tier 2s are obvious (spellcasters with powerful lists and limited spells known), the Tier 5s are pretty obvious.

    Tier 3/Tier 4 is more complicated.
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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by magic9mushroom View Post
    The Tier 1s are obvious (spellcasters with large lists and unlimited spells known), the Tier 2s are obvious (spellcasters with powerful lists and limited spells known), the Tier 5s are pretty obvious.

    Tier 3/Tier 4 is more complicated.
    Yeah, I'm not convinced that the middle tier differences are always clear. Even the distinctions between Tier 2 and Tier 3 aren't always convincing. For example the notion that a default binder is T3 but Zceryll bumps it up to T2 is arguable. It does however seem clear that a binder with access only to the default vestiges in ToM is T3 and that a binder with access to those plus the various online vestiges does get to be pretty clearly T2. (I'm thinking of Abysm, Arete, Astaroth, Desharis, The Triad, Vanus and Zceryl. Not thinking of non-online official vestiges, i.e. Ashardalon(sp?), Kas and Primus). A large part of that bump is still Zceryll but you don't actually get the big Z until fairly late since Zceryll is a 6th level vestige.

    Personally, I'd consider putting the Rogue up to tier 3 rather than 4 but that's a separate discussion.

    Edit: Another issue that this implicitly brings up that I had not thought much about: What fraction of the homebrewed vestiges would one need to include to bump the binder up to T1? For example, if one included just the extensive and well done material by The Demented One and Krimm Blackleaf would that push it up a level? Each of the vestiges is clearly balanced, but the size of the option set when taken together becomes very large. Moreover, a fair number are 7th and 8th level vestiges which is just where the binder starts to run low on options.
    Last edited by JoshuaZ; 2010-03-07 at 10:08 PM.
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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by magic9mushroom View Post
    The Tier 1s are obvious (spellcasters with large lists and unlimited spells known), the Tier 2s are obvious (spellcasters with powerful lists and limited spells known), the Tier 5s are pretty obvious.

    Tier 3/Tier 4 is more complicated.
    Tier 3/4 also get a lot of up-down mobility based on how much more casting you give them through ACFs and racial subs. A ranger with the complete warrior ACF is a fighter with more skill points and a pet. A ranger with the ACF that gives it 6th level casting and a feat for wizard spells is tier 3. Tier 5 and below pretty much get no casting, so you can upgrade them to +1,000,000 damage, and they still aren't going to derail a campaign. Well, maybe a hulking hurler, who chucks the campaign setting into the sun. Literally.

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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Edit: Another issue that this implicitly brings up that I had not thought much about: What fraction of the homebrewed vestiges would one need to include to bump the binder up to T1? For example, if one included just the extensive and well done material by The Demented One and Krimm Blackleaf would that push it up a level? Each of the vestiges is clearly balanced, but the size of the option set when taken together becomes very large. Moreover, a fair number are 7th and 8th level vestiges which is just where the binder starts to run low on options.
    Do any of them cast Gate as their once-every-five-rounds expended ability? Or allow the Binder to write new vestige abilities from scratch? That's pretty much what you'd need to push Binders all the way up into tier 1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    Do any of them cast Gate as their once-every-five-rounds expended ability? Or allow the Binder to write new vestige abilities from scratch? That's pretty much what you'd need to push Binders all the way up into tier 1.
    Really? I thought that sort of abuse is pushing T0 material. T1 is being able to spoil the DMs fun with virtually anything the DM does. Druids don't get Gate, for instance. Well, they do get shapechange, and I'm sure you can shapechange into something for a wish to get a candle of invocation to cast gate. Or shapechange into a solar, thank to the new rulings in RC about casting & polymorph effects.

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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Edit: Another issue that this implicitly brings up that I had not thought much about: What fraction of the homebrewed vestiges would one need to include to bump the binder up to T1? For example, if one included just the extensive and well done material by The Demented One and Krimm Blackleaf would that push it up a level? Each of the vestiges is clearly balanced, but the size of the option set when taken together becomes very large. Moreover, a fair number are 7th and 8th level vestiges which is just where the binder starts to run low on options.
    Epic Vestiges is considered playable in Epic, which is very rare. That alone puts the Binder in a different class of power from other noncasters. I don't think Epic Vestiges alone is enough to call the Binder Tier 1 in a non-Epic game, but it certainly is worth it if the campaign is all ready in Epic levels.

    Personally, I'd consider putting the Rogue up to tier 3 rather than 4 but that's a separate discussion.
    It used to be Tier 3, then people pointed out that the Factotum does everything the Rogue does, but with 7th level spells and a better skill list.

    Do any of them cast Gate as their once-every-five-rounds expended ability? Or allow the Binder to write new vestige abilities from scratch? That's pretty much what you'd need to push Binders all the way up into tier 1.
    If that's all it takes, a Truenamer is Tier 1 as soon as they get 4th level Utterances from the third Lexicon (they effectively get Gate at will due to the DC being much lower for those utterances).

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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by faceroll View Post
    Tier 3/4 also get a lot of up-down mobility based on how much more casting you give them through ACFs and racial subs. A ranger with the complete warrior ACF is a fighter with more skill points and a pet. A ranger with the ACF that gives it 6th level casting and a feat for wizard spells is tier 3. Tier 5 and below pretty much get no casting, so you can upgrade them to +1,000,000 damage, and they still aren't going to derail a campaign. Well, maybe a hulking hurler, who chucks the campaign setting into the sun. Literally.
    Well, what constitutes an acceptable upgrade in this sense? T5 includes both the healer and the paladin who both get spellcasting. Off the top of my head, one could make a healer potentially nasty without any upgrades in a totally RAW fashion if you choose the right feats. For example, if they take the Mother Cyst feat then they have a potential set of offensive spells and at higher levels get useful minions. Legal and if played that way bumps a healer to T4 arguably. Note that if a Paladin of Tyranny or a Paladin of Slaughter is used then this trick works for them also (although the heavily reduced spellcasting means that they don't really move up a tier but just to the high end of their tier). And there are other ways of expanding a spell-list also that could potentially make the healer quite nasty. Not gamebreaking but not T5 (unfortunately playing the healer as a healer is almost worthless).
    And if by upgrading we mean gestalting two T5/6 classes then a healer/paladin or expert/paladin seem to move up a tier. We need to more carefully define upgrade for this to be meaningful.
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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    Thank you.
    *updates*

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    What fraction of the homebrewed vestiges would one need to include to bump the binder up to T1?
    Homebrew is too variable and nebulous to be factored into tier discussions, imo. Sure the Binder has official backing to make your own vestiges, but they are still subject to DM approval. Well, if your DM approves you can homebrew anything you want, so that's a rather redundant clause in this instance I think.

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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    Epic Vestiges is considered playable in Epic, which is very rare. That alone puts the Binder in a different class of power from other noncasters. I don't think Epic Vestiges alone is enough to call the Binder Tier 1 in a non-Epic game, but it certainly is worth it if the campaign is all ready in Epic levels.
    Totally off topic, but has anyone redone the epic rules? They're a terrible mess, epic casting especially.

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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by faceroll View Post
    Totally off topic, but has anyone redone the epic rules? They're a terrible mess, epic casting especially.
    There are quite a few good reworks around for specific parts. Unfortunately, no one has put them together into a coherent whole so figuring out how they interact and whether the interactions aren't broken is difficult. There are a few reworks of epic spellcasting floating around. See for example Belial's system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Thank you.

    Homebrew is too variable and nebulous to be factored into tier discussions, imo. Sure the Binder has official backing to make your own vestiges, but they are still subject to DM approval. Well, if your DM approves you can homebrew anything you want, so that's a rather redundant clause in this instance I think.
    Right, which is why I tried to restrict the question to vestiges that are homebrewed by commonly used and known to be balanced. Maybe I should just rephrase the question in a narrow fashion. Does Binder + Demented's get to T1? What about Binder + Krimm's? And Binder + Demented + Krimm? Presumably if either of the first two are yes than the last is yes, and I suspect a good case for that being yes can probably be made.

    But yes, without very specific vestiges this quickly becomes too variable to discuss.
    Last edited by JoshuaZ; 2010-03-07 at 10:29 PM.
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    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    Re-reading the list, why is CW Samurai tier 6? From what I understand of them, they'd be more accurately placed at the bottom of tier 5. Capable of doing one thing(fear inducement), but not necessarily well(Due to the volume of fear-immune critters out there).
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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by Godskook View Post
    Re-reading the list, why is CW Samurai tier 6? From what I understand of them, they'd be more accurately placed at the bottom of tier 5. Capable of doing one thing(fear inducement), but not necessarily well(Due to the volume of fear-immune critters out there).
    Yes, this argument has been made before. If they are T6 then they are at the very top of T6. Unfortunately they aren't even great at fear inducing because they have trouble inducing fear in multiple enemies at once (IIRC, I don't pay much attention to the CW Samurai).
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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    If that's all it takes, a Truenamer is Tier 1 as soon as they get 4th level Utterances from the third Lexicon (they effectively get Gate at will due to the DC being much lower for those utterances).
    This is actually why the Truenamer is not treated within the tiers, IIRC. They're mostly on a Tier 5 or 6 level (or worse, depending on the Utterances you choose)- except for that one ability, which when achieved skyrockets them all the way up to the big dogs, because you can do *anything* when you can Gate whenever you want. It also raises the question of whether you want to average a Tier rating over all of a class's levels or just pick the highest points. If you average it- especially if you weight it for the most commonly played levels- tiers 1-3 are still really awesome. Tier 4 gains a little, because their weaknesses typically aren't as damning at lower levels. Tier 5 and 6 still suck, and Truenamer just isn't worth thinking about.

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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    Ehh? Ardent is Tier 2 last I checked. And the Totemist is the middle of Tier 3, not Tier 4.
    Wait, why is the ardent tier 2? I thought it got way too few powers known?

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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    Barbarian's tier 4? Is that because of pounce? It's always struck me as a high tier 5 to me.

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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinydwarfman View Post
    Wait, why is the ardent tier 2? I thought it got way too few powers known?
    That's Wilder. Ardent gets 21 powers known, and the right mantles (or ACFs) give them the right powers they need.

    I do admit, the higher level Psionic powers aren't all that impressive. The low level ones are where it's at.

    Barbarian's tier 4? Is that because of pounce? It's always struck me as a high tier 5 to me.
    Pounce is some good. The class is only one or two levels long though. Prior to that ACF, the Barbarian had Trap Smasher from Dungeonscape, which made it a Full BAB Trapfinder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    Pounce is some good. The class is only one or two levels long though. Prior to that ACF, the Barbarian had Trap Smasher from Dungeonscape, which made it a Full BAB Trapfinder.
    In that case, fighter is only one or two levels long (unless you're going dungeoncrasher).

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Yes, this argument has been made before. If they are T6 then they are at the very top of T6. Unfortunately they aren't even great at fear inducing because they have trouble inducing fear in multiple enemies at once (IIRC, I don't pay much attention to the CW Samurai).
    Their L10 ability gives mass staredown, which intimidates everyone in a 30' radius.
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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by Godskook View Post
    Their L10 ability gives mass staredown, which intimidates everyone in a 30' radius.
    Oh right. I guess the issue then is that prior to 10th level they are clearly in T6? And by the time you get to 10th level a lot of stuff has fear immunity or the like, and many other classes can do about as good a job with fear (not just wizard but also just a dread necromancer when she's bored for example) and at that level a lot of stuff is already invulnerable to fear effects. But yes, this seems like a good example of one where a movement of a single tier could be justified. The distinction between T5 and T6 isn't that strict.

    I suppose I could feel useful on occasion playing an unoptimized CW samurai where that really wouldn't happen if I played a warrior. But that's not saying much.
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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by Godskook View Post
    Re-reading the list, why is CW Samurai tier 6? From what I understand of them, they'd be more accurately placed at the bottom of tier 5. Capable of doing one thing(fear inducement), but not necessarily well(Due to the volume of fear-immune critters out there).
    I've always wavered on that one. With Imperious Command they're clearly in T5 as soon as they get AoE fear effects, and even without they're clearly at the top of T6. At the same time, there's armor in Drow of the Underdark that just gives their 14th level ability for IIRC 5kgp. And Dread Pirates and Scarlet Corsairs get their AoE staredown effect, only better, after 5 levels. The Never Outnumbered skill trick gets pretty close to it too and you can have that around level 5 on any class. The fact that every good trick they have is easily gotten somewhere else (and often cheaper or better somewhere else) makes them pretty lame. A Zhentarium Fighter 9/Dread Pirate 5 is nearly strictly better than a Samurai 14, for example, which says that combo should be at least 2 tiers above... which Zhentarium Fighter already is. They do have Diplomacy though and that's nice. I dunno, at some point I might put classes in blue that are at the top of their tier, and classes in red that are at the bottom... CW Samurai would be in blue in that case. Basically the issue with the Samurai is that it has a lot of useless abilities, but if you optimize it well it's VERY easy to push it up quick, yet that same level of optimization would push everyone else up as well, so it's a little harder to place than some.

    And yes, the Barbarian is at the bottom of T4. Easy access to Pounce and Improved Trip (without needing Int, Wolf Totem) make it quite strong, and it's very good at its main thing (dealing lots of damage). Since that main thing is very useful, that says T4. But it's right at the edge, as after level 2 it gains very little (it still doesn't NEED to multiclass out to stay viable, it just doesn't have that much more to offer).

    As for the Truenamer, it's impossible to place. If unoptimized it's clearly T6... it can't use its abilities on anyone of its CR, and is thus equivalent to a Commoner (who can at least make a lot of chickens). If optimized at mid levels it's just pretty good and at high levels it can spam Gate. It's just all over the map.

    JaronK

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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    As for the Truenamer, it's impossible to place. If unoptimized it's clearly T6... it can't use its abilities on anyone of its CR, and is thus equivalent to a Commoner (who can at least make a lot of chickens). If optimized at mid levels it's just pretty good and at high levels it can spam Gate. It's just all over the map.

    JaronK
    While I agree, I think you can assume that a Truenamer at 20 will at least have a Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue and a +30 competence item to Truespeak (since they're just that obvious).

    That alone allows them to use most of their utterances quite easily for a few tries. You get +23 (Ranks) + 12 (Int) + 30 (competence) + 10 (enhancement). That's +75 to Truespeak, which can get a normal utterance to work on a CR 20 creature 100% of the time for 11 shots.

    That said, they are unbearably weak at lower levels when they have a stupidly small amount of utterances, no metautterances, and little in the way of class features.
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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by magic9mushroom View Post
    While I agree, I think you can assume that a Truenamer at 20 will at least have a Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue and a +30 competence item to Truespeak (since they're just that obvious).

    That alone allows them to use most of their utterances quite easily for a few tries. You get +23 (Ranks) + 12 (Int) + 30 (competence) + 10 (enhancement). That's +75 to Truespeak, which can get a normal utterance to work on a CR 20 creature 100% of the time for 11 shots.

    That said, they are unbearably weak at lower levels when they have a stupidly small amount of utterances, no metautterances, and little in the way of class features.
    Except that CR is based on the total encounter, and high level encounters often have multiple enemies whose total CR is above the party's level. When you need to meet the DC of a CR 24 encounter while targeting a Greater Stone Golem, you can tell your main class feature is borked.

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    Default Re: All D&D 3.5 class tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    Except that CR is based on the total encounter, and high level encounters often have multiple enemies whose total CR is above the party's level. When you need to meet the DC of a CR 24 encounter while targeting a Greater Stone Golem, you can tell your main class feature is borked.
    Actualy, all the truenamer cares are the HD of the target he's trying to affect, so a greater stone golem is actualy an easy target. And then he can always buff the party and himself.

    The beguiller on the other hand can pretty much just cry when facing enemies immune to illusions and mind control (like golems), yet a lot of people love the class.

    And an unoptimized wizard is basicaly a commoner. d4 HD, low BAB and firing his crossbow because all the spells he prepared are useless.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-03-08 at 12:28 PM.

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