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2010-03-16, 01:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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ToB: Maneuvers known and multiclass adepts
It seems pretty clear to me that a character with levels in Swordsage and Warblade would have 2 different lists of maneuvers, and track them separately since they have different recovery methods. What is less clear is whether Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw, or Stone Dragon maneuvers (the disciplines those classes share) can count as being known for prereqs of higher level maneuvers across the classes. For example, Sudden Leap requires 1 Tiger Claw maneuver known to learn. Could the character above with Swordsage and Warblade levels learn Claw at the Moon as a Warblade, and then learn Sudden Leap as a Swordsage with no other TC maneuvers on the SS list?
Last edited by Master_Rahl22; 2010-03-16 at 01:11 PM.
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2010-03-16, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: ToB: Maneuvers known and multiclass adepts
I believe they would but I don't think Tome of Battle makes this explicit one way or the other anywhere.
Really, the prerequisites are there primarily for people using Martial Study. If they're actually Martial Adepts, I wouldn't worry about them too much.Last edited by DragoonWraith; 2010-03-16 at 01:06 PM.
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2010-03-16, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: ToB: Maneuvers known and multiclass adepts
If you're right, it leads to some pretty nifty tricks, such as taking a few levels of Swordsage early to grab a bunch of useful utility type maneuvers as prereqs, then grabbing Warblade/Crusader levels for the maneuvers you'll want to re-use.
Semi-related, would Adaptive Style let you choose new readied maneuvers for all of your different maneuver lists? I'm playing around with some ToB cheese for an arena type character, so this is more than just idle speculation. I could win a game on the internet!Last edited by Master_Rahl22; 2010-03-16 at 01:10 PM.
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2010-03-16, 01:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: ToB: Maneuvers known and multiclass adepts
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2010-03-16, 01:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
Re: ToB: Maneuvers known and multiclass adepts
ToB is actually clear on this, but hides where it says so. If you know a maneuver, you know it. Period. There's no checking about why you know the maneuver. I'm AFB or I'd try to look it up. This also means you're not allowed to learn the same maneuver twice under separate classes.
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I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
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2010-03-16, 01:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: ToB: Maneuvers known and multiclass adepts
There's no requirement stated anywhere that you must know a maneuver from a given class--and given that you can't learn a maneuver more than once, as Godskook pointed out, it would cause problems for a few things if maneuvers known were tracked separately. So it's all but guaranteed that it works, but it's not technically RAW.
And yes, Adaptive Style works for all of your maneuvers.Last edited by PairO'Dice Lost; 2010-03-16 at 01:13 PM.
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2010-03-16, 01:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
Re: ToB: Maneuvers known and multiclass adepts
According to the Wotc-sage, yes.
But the new readied maneuvers need to be different, and it's rather useless for the warblade anyway who can recharge his maneuvers with one standart action.
It is also doubtful that this will ever come up in praxis, as most combats shouldn't last longer than four rounds normally.
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2010-03-16, 01:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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2010-03-16, 01:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
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Re: ToB: Maneuvers known and multiclass adepts
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2010-03-16, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
Re: ToB: Maneuvers known and multiclass adepts
Yes, that's true, you don't have to change them, but you would want to as a swordsage so that you get other unexpended maneuvers if you're in a long-drawn fight and can't use full-round actions every round. Which would the only time where this opportunity to use Adaptive Style per the Sage's advice would come in effect.
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2010-03-16, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: ToB: Maneuvers known and multiclass adepts
Using Adaptive Style resets your expended maneuvers. Picking the same maneuvers or a new set makes no difference to this; either way, the maneuvers you pick are all readied and unexpended.
Last edited by Douglas; 2010-03-16 at 01:41 PM.
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2010-03-16, 01:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: ToB: Maneuvers known and multiclass adepts
Adaptive Style doesn't specify that it resets all expended maneuvers back into unexpended. It only tells that you can change all your readied maneuvers with a full round action.
So an expended maneuver would still remain expended if you didn't change it with Adaptive Style. At least, as I interpete the rules.
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2010-03-16, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: ToB: Maneuvers known and multiclass adepts
It works "as if you had just readied your maneuvers for the day", which among other things means they're all unexpended. This is the official WotC interpretation of it, btw.
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Avatar by Ceika.
Archives:
SpoilerSaberhagen's Twelve Swords, some homebrew artifacts for 3.5 (please comment)
Isstinen Tonche for ECL 74 playtesting.
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Arcane Swordsage: Making it actually work (homebrew)
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2010-03-16, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: ToB: Maneuvers known and multiclass adepts
From page 38 the Main FAQ found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a
If a character uses the Adaptive Style feat (ToB 28) after he has expended some of his readied maneuvers, does he choose new readied maneuvers equal to the maximum number he can ready, or equal to the number he hasn’t yet expended?
Using the Adaptive Style feat completely resets the character’s readied maneuvers, making them all available for use. If you’re a crusader, you also reset your granted maneuvers.
Edit: fixed page numberLast edited by Darkfire; 2010-03-16 at 02:03 PM.
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2010-03-16, 02:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
Re: ToB: Maneuvers known and multiclass adepts
nvm answered
Last edited by Emmerask; 2010-03-16 at 02:04 PM.
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2010-03-16, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
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Re: ToB: Maneuvers known and multiclass adepts
That point is arguable by RAW as presented in the book, but the official FAQ clarified that the intent, at least, was that they are all reset. FAQ is not RAW, and quite a few of their rulings have been blindingly stupid, but this is not a clear cut case in the RAW alone, and moreover the FAQ ruling is the only one that makes sense from a balance perspective.
Denying Adaptive Style the ability to reset maneuvers makes Swordsages extremely difficult to play. As soon as they run out of their initial set of maneuvers, they are officially useless if that is the case. And no, they don't get enough maneuvers to "not run out", especially not if they're using their capstone.
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2010-03-16, 04:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: ToB: Maneuvers known and multiclass adepts
Wow, I'm now envisioning a character that is mostly Unarmed Swordsage since the character is not allowed weapons or armor, and then splashes a level or 2 of Crusader and Warblade at the end of the build for a large burst of "I'll have some level 3 and 4 Devoted Spirit and Iron Heart maneuvers kthxbye". Wow, Thicket of Blades + x Throw + Deformity (Tall) = you just thought you could get adjacent to my character.
Master Rahl guide us. Master Rahl teach us. Master Rahl protect us. In your light we thrive. In your mercy we are sheltered. In your wisdom we are humbled. We live to serve. Our lives are yours.
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2010-03-16, 04:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: ToB: Maneuvers known and multiclass adepts
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2010-03-16, 04:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: ToB: Maneuvers known and multiclass adepts
There's a Counter somewhere that allows the use of a Strike for an AoO, but that might have been Homebrew, I'm not sure.
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2010-03-16, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: ToB: Maneuvers known and multiclass adepts
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2010-03-16, 06:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2010
Re: ToB: Maneuvers known and multiclass adepts
You change your list of readied maneuvers with adaptive style, which are then immediately made available to you.
It is not exactly refreshing them in the technical sense (it won't trigger vital recovery for instance, a feat which restores hp when you refresh your maneuvers). But otherwise, the benefit is virtually indistinguishable from refreshing them.
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2010-03-17, 08:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: ToB: Maneuvers known and multiclass adepts
Master Rahl guide us. Master Rahl teach us. Master Rahl protect us. In your light we thrive. In your mercy we are sheltered. In your wisdom we are humbled. We live to serve. Our lives are yours.
Awesome Richard avatar by kpenguin!