Clearing up some Dread Necro. details.

[desmond1323]

OK. So, there's a lass in my usual group who--for whatever horrible, morbid reason--loves the Dread Necromancer class. (the odd thing is, her other favorite classes tend to be Favoured Soul or Healer, or combined, focusing on healing obviously)

Before I started DMing often, she was just a fellow player under another one of our group's usual DMs (he's a player under me. There's about three of us who run and play.).

Anyways, this guy HATES this class...he regrets ever letting her play it, partially because he didn't wanna deal with her being Evil, but mostly for the zombies. (We were such a ridiculous group...her NE Drow Dread Necro, her N Elven Wizard-Necro school, another player's LG Gnomish Paladin and LE Tiefling Monk, another player's CN Half-Elven Barbarian, yet another player's CG Rogue/Fighter-trip focused, and my NG Druid. Oh so much time dealing with my and the paladin's dislike for zombies.)

I started up my campaign, and she wanted to play a Dread Necro...I didn't see the real issue, so I let her do it. After a few sessions, I begin to see the problem: action economy is a ridiculous b**ch now, especially since they were starting at level 15, so I let her go ahead and have some zombies of creatures she could have fought somewhere in that time frame. I regret this latter decision more than anything else....but overall, I can figure out a way past the undead. That's not the issue.

So, after all that tl;dr, my question is this:
Recently I had to read up on the Rebuke/Control undead rules, and it says it takes a standard action to give a mental command to ONE undead.

Is this true for the Dread Necro.'s undead as well? Or do they act like summon creatures and all go on the Necro's turn, no matter how many there are, so long as it's within her amount of HD to control?

Some clarification would be grand, just to make sure nothing is being misunderstood here.

[sofawall]

I think if you give undead a command, they continue it to the furthest extent of their ability, until you tell them otherwise. I am not totally sure, though.

[Apropos]

For mindless undead, you just give them a mental command and they continue to carry it out until instructed otherwise.

[desmond1323]

*nods* I knew that about commanding undead and that was one suggestion....but to my reckoning of that, that means she'd have to give the command to "Attack all hostiles till they're not moving anymore" to each zombie, and then it'd fulfill it....but each command is a standard action, meaning if she has five zombies, it takes five rounds to command all of them.

You could argue that these commands are up all the time, but I'd houserule against that to balance things more effectively.

Does that sound about right?

[Gametime]

Rules are a little vague. Taking a standard action per undead is terrible; taking a free action per undead (which is the only restriction Animate Dead seems to give, as the undead follow your "spoken commands") seems too generous.

I'd allow the necromancer to command all undead with a single standard action (although it would have to be the same command, such as "Attack that group of enemies"; nothing fancy for the mindless). Using up the most valuable action of your turn is a huge loss for a caster, and undead aren't all that impressive even in hordes.

[desmond1323]

I'd allow the necromancer to command all undead with a single standard action (although it would have to be the same command, such as "Attack that group of enemies"; nothing fancy for the mindless). Using up the most valuable action of your turn is a huge loss for a caster, and undead aren't all that impressive even in hordes.

You haven't seen it done correctly then.

But as for the rest, I'll keep it in mind. I already have her on an undead limit (currently five, going to lower it to three when another PC joins the party)...she's also limited by the fact that most of her undead are large sized, so they can't go everywhere.

It just struck me as odd that she can control some several hundreds HD of undead, and can make them all do something in one go--I've found ways to get around this, mostly...my friend who hates the class has paranoia of an army of zombie just sweeping away the competition.

Mostly I just want clarity, to make sure we're doing things relatively correctly....partially, because the other DM wants us to use our old RHoD party (the really messed up one I described), but he doesn't want to deal with the Dread Necro...the player would be heartbroken she couldn't play that character, so I'm trying to discover a way to calm the DM and make him allow her to still play the Necro.

[Gametime]

You haven't seen it done correctly then.

But as for the rest, I'll keep it in mind. I already have her on an undead limit (currently five, going to lower it to three when another PC joins the party)...she's also limited by the fact that most of her undead are large sized, so they can't go everywhere.

It just struck me as odd that she can control some several hundreds HD of undead, and can make them all do something in one go--I've found ways to get around this, mostly...my friend who hates the class has paranoia of an army of zombie just sweeping away the competition.

Mostly I just want clarity, to make sure we're doing things relatively correctly....partially, because the other DM wants us to use our old RHoD party (the really messed up one I described), but he doesn't want to deal with the Dread Necro...the player would be heartbroken she couldn't play that character, so I'm trying to discover a way to calm the DM and make him allow her to still play the Necro.

Spells are Just That Good (TM). I've seen hordes of undead used very effectively. A caster has better (though not necessarily more fun) things to do with their turn.

Again, I wouldn't allow fancy tactics and tricks to be mass-commanded. If all your undead are doing is moving forward and smacking the closest enemies, you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that it's overpowered. It's a fine use of a turn, but not overpowered.

[desmond1323]

Spells are Just That Good (TM). I've seen hordes of undead used very effectively. A caster has better (though not necessarily more fun) things to do with their turn.

Again, I wouldn't allow fancy tactics and tricks to be mass-commanded. If all your undead are doing is moving forward and smacking the closest enemies, you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that it's overpowered. It's a fine use of a turn, but not overpowered.

*shrug* Eh, I'm sure, it just happen that way with my groups.

This Dread Necro has been fighting a lot of undead and the like, so her spells are mostly useless.

With how things tend to work around here, the fact that she's pulling a ridiculous amount of the action economy back in the PCs hands is pretty powerful, but that's just us and our group.

As far as the tricks vs. basic things, I agree wholeheartedly, thanks for the input!

[DragoonWraith]

Hmm.

How's this for a compromise? She can command the group with a single standard action, but only very generally - "attack", "hold", "defend", "retreat" - no denoting who to attack, specifically. Figure they'll have running orders to not attack the party unless explicitly told to, and then have each attack whatever's closest. Or not, have them spread around - they're much less dangerous when they're spread out instead of ganging up on one guy.

Alternatively, she can spend a standard action giving more explicit directions - "attack him", "defend her" - but only to a single zombie at a time.

And the general commands can't exclude zombies, so if she has two that are hurting and wants to have them retreat, she can either have all of them retreat, or else she can spend two turns' worth of standard actions pulling each back individually.


If the Necromancer horde is still a problem under these rules, frankly, I feel like something else is the problem, not her. It's a perfectly viable archetype to want to play and it's very much nearer the balanced end of the wizard power spectrum...

[Eldariel]

At least Handle Animal refers to commanding other creatures as move action; I'd use that precedent here. There may actually be something about it in the PHB but I don't have time to dig it up right now.

[desmond1323]

If the Necromancer horde is still a problem under these rules, frankly, I feel like something else is the problem, not her. It's a perfectly viable archetype to want to play and it's very much nearer the balanced end of the wizard power spectrum...

Honestly, I don't have a large problem with it. It's my fellow friend who does.
I just wanted the clarification.

Pretty much what you suggested seems to be the best, and most logical, option. I'll pass the knowledge on as well, and maybe all our old RHoD characters can reunite for some good times!

Thanks a bunch, mate.

At least Handle Animal refers to commanding other creatures as move action; I'd use that precedent here. There may actually be something about it in the PHB but I don't have time to dig it up right now.

See, it ticks me off when the bloody CLASS ENTRY doesn't specify. But oh well. I think I'll do something closer to what DragonWraith suspected, as it's pretty much the direction I was leaning ANYway....but still, if it's a problem, maybe I'll follow this suit instead. So, thanks!

[deuxhero]

I don't think the issue is her being overpowered, but the other 2 people using a Paladin and Monk.

[JoshuaZ]

Note that if any of the undead are intelligent then she can simply give them standing order. It is not clear whether "follow me and attack anyone I point to" is too complicated for unintelligent undead (that particular command could lead to some funny problems if one was not careful).

[deuxhero]

Really, "You *points to zombie* attack him *points to foe*" and "all attack him" are fairly easy commands to get out. RAMS (ignoreing balance) I wouldn't reqiure an action beyond being part of a move action (like drawing a weapon with 1 BAB) if any.

[Beelzebub1111]

This is why, if a player is a Dread Necro, you throw some Good Clerics and Palidins in as enemies. Maybe even a Radiant Servant of Pelor.

[desmond1323]

I don't think the issue is her being overpowered, but the other 2 people using a Paladin and Monk.

Heh, well, that's one group...the one that I mostly care about is where I"m DMing, which is a different group in its entirety.

This is why, if a player is a Dread Necro, you throw some Good Clerics and Palidins in as enemies. Maybe even a Radiant Servant of Pelor.

That wouldn't make sense. She's not Evil. We don't like Evil characters, in general. Besides, combating the undead isn't the problem.

The problem is: I want it clear how many undead she can control in one round. If she had 20 undead on the field, can she give them all one command to attack, and they all get to attack? If so, I'll deal with it--I just want to know for SURE.
The Dread Necro. bit is not clear on that aspect, nor is the Animate Dead spell. The closest I came was with the Rebuke/Command ability, which specifically states that, no matter how many undead you control, you can only give a command to ONE as a standard action.

[DragoonWraith]

Honestly, I don't have a large problem with it. It's my fellow friend who does.
I just wanted the clarification.

Pretty much what you suggested seems to be the best, and most logical, option. I'll pass the knowledge on as well, and maybe all our old RHoD characters can reunite for some good times!

Thanks a bunch, mate.

See, it ticks me off when the bloody CLASS ENTRY doesn't specify. But oh well. I think I'll do something closer to what DragonWraith suspected, as it's pretty much the direction I was leaning ANYway....but still, if it's a problem, maybe I'll follow this suit instead. So, thanks!

Honestly, I think a Move Action instead of a Standard Action is much better balance, personally. My suggestion was very much on the conservative end - probably appropriate with a Paladin and Monk in the party, but really it's a pretty heavy nerf compared to the Move Action which I think is much more reasonable.

[deuxhero]

Heh, well, that's one group...the one that I mostly care about is where I"m DMing, which is a different group in its entirety.

composed of?

[faceroll]

There's a spell that gives a friendly undead creature the ability to issue commands to undead you control. It's in the spell compendium.

[desmond1323]

composed of?

The one that I'm DMing is composed of her level 16 Dread Necro, a Level 6 Monk/Level 10 Psy Warrior, a level 16 Druid, and a Level 11 Rogue who's a doppleganger. Eventually another character will join, though he's going back and forth on what build he wants.

As far as RP compatibility goes, none of them are Good. Hell, the doppleganger's Evil, but the party doesn't know that.

When it came to our RHoD party, my Druid accepted that they were under her control to do good deeds. The paladin was a liiittle more iffy, but effectively felt the same...so long as they stayed far away and were put back in the magic bag when all was said and done. This is a paladin who travels around with a LE tiefling monk to keep an eye on her, so, yeah.

There's a spell that gives a friendly undead creature the ability to issue commands to undead you control. It's in the spell compendium.

Then if I decide something that limits her ability to control, I pray she doesn't discover this spell, :P....though it has to be on her spell list, so, maybe that's not a big deal. *shrug*

[JoshuaZ]

Then if I decide something that limits her ability to control, I pray she doesn't discover this spell, :P....though it has to be on her spell list, so, maybe that's not a big deal. *shrug*

You mean she's playing a DN and she hasn't gone through and read every nec spell in the Spell-Compendium? Lucky you. That advanced learning feature is so handy...

[deuxhero]

Does the monk/psy war have the Talsha-somethingorother feat?


I have to ask what the DRUID is doing to not break the game though. Actually, how do you handle the druids AC? Making the Dread Necro's undead work the same way could work.

[penbed400]

I played a massive undead army focused wizard. That all ended one equal level cleric encounter later. Oh the holy power burned. Have them run into a holy ground or section of the positive energy plane that auto-kills all undead that enter. Dread Necro can always create more afterwards and its balanced for that moment.

[Dr Bwaa]

Here you go. (I seem to be posting this link a lot this week)...

Make sure you expand all the spoilers; the formatting is pretty bad in some places. Also, K's Necromancer handbook is also a fantastic resource for these things; it's linked early on that page I'm pretty sure.

[Eldariel]

I have to ask what the DRUID is doing to not break the game though. Actually, how do you handle the druids AC? Making the Dread Necro's undead work the same way could work.

Druid has a specific clause in the AC that makes handling it a free action. That's an exception to the rule of handling things usually taking a move action.

Here:
Link (Ex)
"A druid can handle her animal companion as a free action, or push it as a move action, even if she doesn’t have any ranks in the Handle Animal skill. The druid gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all wild empathy checks and Handle Animal checks made regarding an animal companion."

[JoshuaZ]

Here you go. (I seem to be posting this link a lot this week)...

Make sure you expand all the spoilers; the formatting is pretty bad in some places. Also, K's Necromancer handbook is also a fantastic resource for these things; it's linked early on that page I'm pretty sure.

Unfortunately that's about playing a Dread Necromancer. The question was about dealing with one.

[desmond1323]

Have them run into a holy ground or section of the positive energy plane that auto-kills all undead that enter. Dread Necro can always create more afterwards and its balanced for that moment.

Naw, that's too much of a **** move, in my book. Overcompensation because I couldn't find a milder solution = really dissapointed/p***ed characters.

Does the monk/psy war have the Talsha-somethingorother feat?

No idea.
Heh, you should see my other thread when it comes to dealing with him, should be on page 2. This is mostly for accuracy....his character I needed more specific help, heh.

You mean she's playing a DN and she hasn't gone through and read every nec spell in the Spell-Compendium? Lucky you. That advanced learning feature is so handy...

I am very careful with the Spell Compendium...if they don't peruse it carefully, I'm not gonna remind them. Tis my FAVORITE book ever. I loved my Druid, then I got that book...I love him so much more. And it makes non-standard arcance casters much better.


Also, let's refrain from using the words "game breaker" or anything of such....no one's doing that, not even the Monk, and he's a lot more powerful than the DN. This thread isn't about reigning in the DN, it's about understanding how the bloody class works specificially.

[Olo Demonsbane]

I played a massive undead army focused wizard. That all ended one equal level cleric encounter later. Oh the holy power burned. Have them run into a holy ground or section of the positive energy plane that auto-kills all undead that enter. Dread Necro can always create more afterwards and its balanced for that moment.

Positive energy plane doesn't actually kill undead, by RAW. It instead gives them infinite temporary hp.

[penbed400]

Positive energy plane doesn't actually kill undead, by RAW. It instead gives them infinite temporary hp.

Well yes, but that doesn't mean he can't make a section of it do that. I wasn't necessarily referencing RAW as giving a suggestion.

[JoshuaZ]

Positive energy plane doesn't actually kill undead, by RAW. It instead gives them infinite temporary hp.

Huh. I didn't realize that but it appears you are correct. From the SRD:

An abundance of life characterizes planes with this trait. The two kinds of positive-dominant traits are minor positive-dominant and major positive-dominant. A minor positive-dominant plane is a riotous explosion of life in all its forms. Colors are brighter, fires are hotter, noises are louder, and sensations are more intense as a result of the positive energy swirling through the plane. All individuals in a positive-dominant plane gain fast healing 2 as an extraordinary ability.

Major positive-dominant planes go even further. A creature on a major positive-dominant plane must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid being blinded for 10 rounds by the brilliance of the surroundings. Simply being on the plane grants fast healing 5 as an extraordinary ability. In addition, those at full hit points gain 5 additional temporary hit points per round. These temporary hit points fade 1d20 rounds after the creature leaves the major positive-dominant plane. However, a creature must make a DC 20 Fortitude save each round that its temporary hit points exceed its normal hit point total. Failing the saving throw results in the creature exploding in a riot of energy, killing it.

That's just weird. And since undead don't need to make the saving throw they don't even need to worry about it and just keep getting hitpoints.