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    Morithias's Avatar

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    Default Giving people things they don't want.

    People, I don't want a flame war over this but it's getting out of hand.

    When I ask for a way to improve my tracking ability, I don't want to be handed a wizard with the divination school. When I ask for a good aligned class with a death attack, I don't want to be given a wizard with finger of death. When I ask for a good archer, I don't want to be pointed to a ray specialist.

    Seriously...it has to stop. When I order a hamburger at a restaurant I don't want to be given a prime steak, I want a hamburger.

    When you simply say "Why don't you *insert tier 1 class here* instead?" You are adding nothing to the conversation, and not helping me solve my problem.

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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    you should play a Wizard with Fire-Resistance
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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    Amen.

    It is indeed annoying, but it can usually be countered by simply stating in the opening post that you don't want a Wizard, don't want to hear how Monks/Fighters suck or how Half-Minotaurs r da roxorz. Say that you're sticking with whatever race/class you've got, and that you just want help with the feats etc.

    A lot of people do it, and it usually works.
    Last edited by SilverLeaf167; 2010-10-18 at 04:09 AM.
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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverLeaf167 View Post
    Amen.

    It is indeed annoying, but it can usually be countered by simply stating in the opening post that you don't want a Wizard, don't want to hear how Monks/Fighters suck, or simply say that you're sticking with whatever race/class you've got, and that you just want help with the feats etc. A lot of people do it, and it usually works.
    It's just getting a little nutty. I mean, let's say for some weird reason you said to me "I need a weapon to kill for ex girlfriend from a long distance away." You're asking for a sniper rifle, not me telling you to use an atomic bomb. XD

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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morithias View Post
    It's just getting a little nutty. I mean, let's say for some weird reason you said to me "I need a weapon to kill for ex girlfriend from a long distance away." You're asking for a sniper rifle, not me telling you to use an atomic bomb. XD
    Yah...but you cant deny the style points for using an A-Bomb to take out a lone individual...
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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    Quote Originally Posted by FelixG View Post
    Yah...but you cant deny the style points for using an A-Bomb to take out a lone individual...
    double points if you put on shades while turning away from the blast
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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverLeaf167 View Post
    Amen.

    It is indeed annoying, but it can usually be countered by simply stating in the opening post that you don't want a Wizard, don't want to hear how Monks/Fighters suck or how Half-Minotaurs r da roxorz. Say that you're sticking with whatever race/class you've got, and that you just want help with the feats etc.

    A lot of people do it, and it usually works.
    Not everybody reads the opening post, sadly.

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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    if people aren't reading the opening post how do they now what you need/want?
    call me Dragon

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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    Quote Originally Posted by newD&Dfan View Post
    double points if you put on shades while turning away from the blast
    And get killed by the radiation.


    So... I presume that your problem is that you don't get to choose your class (and possibly more), but your DM or group does it for you?
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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    Quote Originally Posted by M-Bark View Post
    And get killed by the radiation.


    So... I presume that your problem is that you don't get to choose your class (and possibly more), but your DM or group does it for you?
    I think his problem is that he chooses his own class and then comes to the forums to get help with and people suggest he switches to a wizard.


    Also if you were a wizard you wouldn't have this problem.
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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    Quote Originally Posted by M-Bark View Post
    So... I presume that your problem is that you don't get to choose your class (and possibly more), but your DM or group does it for you?
    He means that whenever he asks for build advise on the Internet (perhaps GiantITP?) he doesn't get help with his existing build, but instead an entirely new build he doesn't even want.

    EDIT: Ninja'd
    Last edited by SilverLeaf167; 2010-10-18 at 04:23 AM.
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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    Quote Originally Posted by M-Bark View Post
    So... I presume that your problem is that you don't get to choose your class (and possibly more), but your DM or group does it for you?
    umm if you are looking for a Ranger cause your concept wants it you dont want to change to a wizard cause 'they are teh roxxxorz' or something

    EDIT: double ninja'd
    Last edited by DragonOfUndeath; 2010-10-18 at 04:24 AM.
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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    Quote Originally Posted by pffh View Post
    I think his problem is that he chooses his own class and then comes to the forums to get help with and people suggest he switches to a wizard.


    Also if you were a wizard you wouldn't have this problem.
    Yeah. Example I've seen:

    "I want to play an archery focused ranger using blah and blah and blah".
    "Play a cleric with the following domains and two levels of...."
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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    Easy solution, just say what you want but moreso what you don't want in every thread you create asking for such things.

    Or twiddle your thumbs and hope those certain people who love Tier 1 too much don't show up, whether they are serious or joking.

    Asking your own group rather than stuff on the forums might also help more.
    Last edited by Morph Bark; 2010-10-18 at 05:04 AM.
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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    Amen.

    Related pet peeve - asking questions about balance or DMing and getting replies like 'oh, who cares if Frenzied Berserker is balanced, if you have a Tier 1 in the party it won't matter!' (The "anything less than the most optimized possible character is OK' answer.)
    Last edited by ffone; 2010-10-18 at 05:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    Quote Originally Posted by newD&Dfan View Post
    if people aren't reading the opening post how do they now what you need/want?
    They don't. They just say what they want to say...

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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    Title. Make them as descriptive as possible. Many a time, the title doesn't accurately summarize what the player is asking for.

    That and the aforementioned specification of what you do and don't want will help quite a bit.

    Also be aware that many people are lazy, and as such, you'll frequently get the fastest, easiest, and most broken way to accomplish your goal. This isn't a bad thing, but if you're looking for help with an already existing build, it might not always be helpful.

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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

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    People should read topic posts more. /thread.
    Last edited by DrWeird; 2010-10-18 at 10:09 AM.
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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyx View Post
    They don't. They just say what they want to say...
    Yeah, whatever. This build clearly needs MOAR DRUID!


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    frown Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    I actually relate to this opinion/pain very well. I've fully given up on asking for build advice on the giant. I rarely get good answers, 90% of the people who suggest something didn't read the original post. Even if you put what you do not want in size 7 red impact font they ignore it and suggest exactly what you don't want anyway.

    Cases in point:

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131888


    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154558



    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153599


    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166572

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    Last edited by Ormagoden; 2010-10-18 at 11:09 AM.

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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morithias View Post
    People, I don't want a flame war over this but it's getting out of hand.

    When I ask for a way to improve my tracking ability, I don't want to be handed a wizard with the divination school. When I ask for a good aligned class with a death attack, I don't want to be given a wizard with finger of death. When I ask for a good archer, I don't want to be pointed to a ray specialist.

    Seriously...it has to stop. When I order a hamburger at a restaurant I don't want to be given a prime steak, I want a hamburger.

    When you simply say "Why don't you *insert tier 1 class here* instead?" You are adding nothing to the conversation, and not helping me solve my problem.
    AMEN! If I say I want to play a monk, don't tell me I should be playing an unarmed swordsage (or whatever they're called). If I want to play a blaster wizard, don't tell me I should be playing a control wizard. You know?

    (Although I disagree on the prime steak thing. I only order hamburgers when I can't afford the steak. )
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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    To be somewhat serious:

    The reason you get alternate suggestions is that the respondant believes he has found what you want via a different route.

    For example, when you ask for an "archery focused ranger using blah-blah-blaah" people are going to look at that and see "I want a character that does this." Often (in 3.5) instead of making a convoluted Feat Chain work it is far easier to make some flavor of CoDzilla or Wizard which does what the quoted build seems to want.

    The best solution to this is to explain why you want a certain build. If you say "I'd like a character that does X, but he can't be a Caster because it doesn't fit the backstory" then only idiots will suggest a Caster.

    People aren't always being jerks - sometimes they're trying to answer what they think is your question because the question wasn't asked with specific clarity.
    Last edited by Oracle_Hunter; 2010-10-18 at 11:28 AM.
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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    Yes, people might just assume you don't know about some mechanically superior option that fits the concept being described if you don't specify it. Many people here also subscribe to the idea that classes are abstractions so you'll have to explain why you want to limit yourself to a single class or a concept when asking for advice.

    Of course some people just don't pay attention and there is nothing you can do about that except ignore them (flying into rage won't make them go away) but most of the time it's probably lack of information and/or a clash of play-style philosophies that yields advice you consider useless.
    Last edited by Ormur; 2010-10-18 at 12:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    Honestly, I'd be satisfied with never seeing pun-pun given as an answer again.

    Even if it's a high-optimization question, that's almost invariably an unhelpful post.

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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    It's called spam; Monty Python has a sketch on that Just say "No spam" and you'll get a lot of it!


    Honestly, I recall never advising someone to play a Wizard if they state they have a class preference. At most I might mention a class that's exactly the same fluff-wise with a slightly different set of abilities (e.g. Monk vs. Unarmed Swordsage).

    If someone comes on the forums and asks how to maximize your X by level Y, well, the answer is usually a Wizard since that's the easiest (and sometimes the only) way. But honestly, how often is someone who asked for advice on how to build character X or class X told to play Wizard instead? 'cause I don't remember many instances of that happening.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2010-10-18 at 01:02 PM.
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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeso View Post
    Not everybody reads the opening post, sadly.
    Which is exactly the point.

    Even if you don't specify I don't want XYZ, which could get ignored anyway, it's often clear that the OP wants something within a certain concept that does not include insert-overused-build-here.

    Also, gotta say ninjas are still cooler than swordsages, and I shall always get ninja'd rather than swordsaged regardless of variations in splatbook power levels.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2010-10-18 at 01:10 PM.
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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    Also, gotta say ninjas are still cooler than swordsages, and I shall always get ninja'd rather than swordsaged regardless of variations in splatbook power levels.
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    Last edited by Eldariel; 2010-10-18 at 01:07 PM.
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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    The secret that's confusing you: Ninjas are Swordsages!
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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Honestly, I'd be satisfied with never seeing pun-pun given as an answer again.

    Even if it's a high-optimization question, that's almost invariably an unhelpful post.
    Again? As in you've seen it suggested in a serious manner before?
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    Default Re: Giving people things they don't want.

    Quote Originally Posted by pffh View Post
    Again? As in you've seen it suggested in a serious manner before?
    Sadly, yes. Heck, over in the DR 20 thread today. Not much of a challenge if you just say "aha, pun pun!".

    Sure, it technically fills the requirements, but invariably not in a useful way as, even for TO, there's not much point in using pun-pun.

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