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    Default [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

    Dang, I'm on a homebrew binge. Please review and comment!

    The Tactician

    That's the plan. Got it?

    The tactician is a master of battlefield control. While a wizard might kill things and a fighter might hit things, the tactician will position his allies and opponents into the optimum positions for battle. The Tactician's unique combination of battlefield prowess with minor spellcasting abilities makes it a unique choice for any leader of combat.

    Inspiration: I like the movement abilities that a 4e druid gets. Let's translate them to 3.5!

    Game Rule Information

    Alignment: Tacticians are typically lawful, since it requires much study to know optimum battle schemas.
    Hit Die: d6.
    Starting Gold: As Paladin.

    Skill Points: 4+Int mod, x4 at first level.
    Skills: The Puppeteer’s class skills (And the key abilities for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (All skills, taken individually) (Int), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int)

    The Tactician
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Force Movement (10 ft.), Tactical Strike +1d6

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Halt Movement

    3rd|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Tactical Strike +2d6

    4th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Force Movement (20 ft.)

    5th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Like a Ghost, Tactical Strike +3d6

    6th|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Hesitate 3/day

    7th|
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Force Movement (30 ft.), Multiple Force Movement, Tactical Strike +4d6

    8th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |Aura of Adversity (5 ft.)

    9th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |Halt Action, Tactical Strike +5d6

    10th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Force Movement (40 ft.)

    11th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Aura of Adversity (10 ft.), Tactical Strike +6d6

    12th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |Hesitate 5/day

    13th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |Force Movement (50 ft.), Tactical Strike +7d6

    14th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +9
    |Advanced Tactics

    15th|
    +11/+6/+1
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +9
    |Force Movement (60 ft.), Tactical Strike +8d6

    16th|
    +12/+7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |Aura of Adversity (30 ft.)

    17th|
    +12/+7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |Silent Watcher, Tactical Strike +9d6

    18th|
    +13/+8/+3
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |Hesitate at will

    19th|
    +14/+9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |Force Movement (70 ft.), Tactical Strike +10d6

    20th|
    +15/+10/+5
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +12
    |Master Warmaker
    [/table]

    Class Features:

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Tacticians are proficient with all simple weapons, one martial weapon of their choice, and light armor.

    Force Movement (Su): A tactician may spend a move action to move another creature with 10 ft. per class level up to the distance indicated. An unwilling target of this ability is granted a Will save of DC 10 + 1/2 the tactician's class level + the tactician's Int modifier to resist this effect. If the movement would result in harm to the creature (Moving into a pool of acid, for example) the creature gets a +6 bonus to its will save.

    Tactical Strike (Ex): Whenever a tactician strikes a creature that has been moved with his Force Movement this turn or the turn before, he can add the indicated dice to the damage dealt by the attack.

    Halt Movement (Su): A number of times per day equal to his int modifier, a tactician may spend an immediate action to stop a creature's movement. The creature may resist this with a will save of DC 10 + 1/2 the tactician's class level + the tactician's Int modifier. If stopping movement would result in harm to the creature (stopping above a spiked pit, for example) the creature gets a +6 bonus to its will save. A tactician need not ready an action to be able to do this.

    Like a Ghost (Su): Whenever a tactician would be granted an attack of opportunity, he may instead take a 5 foot step.

    Hesitate (Sp): The number of times per day indicated, a tactician may cast Hesitate as a spell-like ability as a wizard of caster level equal to his class level.

    Multiple Force Movement (Su): A tactician may move more than one creature with his Force Movement ability by dividing up the total movement in 5 ft. increments.

    Aura of Adversity (Su): A burst of the radius indicated around the tactician is treated as difficult terrain by all of his foes.

    Halt Action (Su): A tactician may use a use of his Halt Movement ability to stop a creature's standard action. The creature may resist this with a will save of DC 10 + 1/2 the tactician's class level + the tactician's Int modifier.

    Advanced Tactics (Ex): Whenever a tactician moves an ally with his Force Movement ability, that ally may gain Tactical Strike equal to the Tactician's until the end of their turn.

    Silent Watcher (Su): A number of rounds per day equal to his class level, a Tactician may turn himself intangible, gaining the incorporeal subtype. These rounds need not be used together, and turning incorporeal is a free action. All of a tactician's abilities still function when incorporeal.

    Master Warmaker (Su): A number of times per day equal to his Int modifier, a tactician may move any number of creatures within a 30 foot radius burst to any other point within that radius. The creatures are all moved simultaneously and provoke no attacks of opportunity.

    (Image from 3.5 Player's Handbook)
    Last edited by Rauthiss; 2010-04-14 at 09:05 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Puppeteer (A beguiler-style caster; PEACH)

    What's wrong with standard Beguiler casting? There's no reason to break from it, especially to give a class more spells. The sorcerer should still be near the top...giving more high level spells than the sorcerer gets shouldn't be done.

    Secondly, don't give such a huge DC increase. That's what Spell Focus is for. Instead, give other, flavorful abilities like the Beguiler gets. Maybe Telepathy, or Detect Thoughts at will...that sort of thing. A flat DC increase of that much is to powerful, and isn't flavorful at all.

    The class as it stands is potent...and bland. Drop some of that raw power, and add some areas of interest.


    No longer valid, as the class itself has completely changed.
    Last edited by Djinn_in_Tonic; 2010-03-16 at 08:56 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Puppeteer (A beguiler-style caster; PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_In_Tonic View Post
    What's wrong with standard Beguiler casting? There's no reason to break from it, especially to give a class more spells. The sorcerer should still be near the top...giving more high level spells than the sorcerer gets shouldn't be done. Sounds like a reasonable suggestion, and one I agree with.

    Secondly, don't give such a huge DC increase. That's what Spell Focus is for. Instead, give other, flavorful abilities like the Beguiler gets. Maybe Telepathy, or Detect Thoughts at will...that sort of thing. A flat DC increase of that much is to powerful, and isn't flavorful at all. Again, sounds like good advice. Now to think up class abilities.

    The class as it stands is potent...and bland. Drop some of that raw power, and add some areas of interest.
    As a point of interest, what kind of power level change would adding the ability to learn and spontaeneously cast psionic powers of the Telepathy discipline as spells of their level be? Just brainstorming and had it occur to me.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Puppeteer (A beguiler-style caster; PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacarath View Post
    As a point of interest, what kind of power level change would adding the ability to learn and spontaeneously cast psionic powers of the Telepathy discipline as spells of their level be? Just brainstorming and had it occur to me.
    Not sure. I'd stay away from that, actually, as it crosses systems which weren't made to cross. Try adding class features instead of more spellcasting, IMHO.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Puppeteer (A beguiler-style caster; PEACH)

    darn,
    here was me hpoing for the stat-out of a Pierson's Puppeteer
    * my emphasis

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Puppeteer (A beguiler-style caster; PEACH)

    I miss Sense Motive within class skill. Maybe some Mindbender abilities (in Complete Arcana and Tome and Blood)
    Inspiration: This is actually an old old old class I had homebrewed for a tabletop campaign. It was basically my version of an enchantment warmage/beguiler type that wasn’t a bard.
    I dont see where is warmage in this class who blast his destructive magic.
    However i like this mind-controller mindbreaker
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

    The tactician is ready for review! Rip me apart, you know you want to.

    On a separate note, I'm considering upping his BAB to 3/4. Thoughts?
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

    Unbalanced Strike is a weird name; sounds like the Tactician is the one who is unbalanced.

    On the other hand, Tactical Strike does sort of have this ring to it...

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

    Now, this is more flavor than anything I suppose, but couldn't a high-level tactician potentially say "Everything that fails a Will save runs off a cliff/ into the bubbly pit of acid/ into the angry dragon's lair."?

    It could be easily fixed by saying that they can't be force moved into direct harm or by giving a bonus to the will save in such cases. But as I said, mostly a flavor thing-- no matter how good you are at squad tactics, chances are it probably won't make sense for your enemies to spontaneously commit suicide.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

    @DragoonWraith: Derp derp derp, you are right.

    @Jack - I think I'll give them a bonus on will saves, like I did for halt movement.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

    move another creature with 10 ft. per class level up to the distance indicated
    I'm confused by this wording. Did you mean "within?"
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Tacticians are proficient with all simple weapons, one martial weapon of their choice, and light armor.
    For a class with low BAB, seems a bit high to have martial weapon proficiencies. However... I don't understand the point of low BAB on a class with incredibly limited class features that seems, in all honesty, to be martial-ish anyway. At least medium BAB.

    Force Movement (Su): A tactician may spend a move action to move another creature with 10 ft. per class level up to the distance indicated. An unwilling target of this ability is granted a Will save of DC 10 + 1/2 the tactician's class level + the tactician's Int modifier to resist this effect. If the movement would result in harm to the creature (Moving into a pool of acid, for example) the creature gets a +6 bonus to its will save.
    So it's a low amount of positioning; in the end, you can move a creature 35 feet (less than a move action) using your own move action, if they fail a standard will save. Not amazing for a primary class feature.

    Tactical Strike (Ex): Whenever a tactician strikes a creature that has been moved with his Force Movement this turn or the turn before, he can add the indicated dice to the damage dealt by the attack.
    A martial ability on a class with bad BAB. Seriously, raise the BAB. Plus, unlike other add damage effects, this completely prevents you from full attacking (uses your move action) or takes multiple turns to set up a full tactical strike, and the damage is pitifully low.

    Daze (Sp): A Tactician may cast Daze as a spell-like ability at will as a wizard of caster level equal to his class level.
    This is flavorful, I guess, if useless.

    Halt Movement (Su): A number of times per day equal to his int modifier, a tactician may spend an immediate action to stop a creature's movement. The creature may resist this with a will save of DC 10 + 1/2 the tactician's class level + the tactician's Int modifier. If stopping movement would result in harm to the creature (stopping above a spiked pit, for example) the creature gets a +6 bonus to its will save. A tactician need not ready an action to be able to do this.
    It's an immediate action. You wouldn't need to ready an action anyway; readied actions are only to take non-immediate actions later than normal.

    Like a Ghost (Su): Whenever a tactician would be granted an attack of opportunity, he may instead take a 5 foot step as an immediate action.
    This should be a nonaction, not an immediate action (immediate actions are valuable, and only show up once per turn, plus this negates your other class features and swift action items). Though you could never hit an attack of opportunity, I just don't see what limited extra movement would do.

    Suggestion (Sp): The number of times per day indicated, a tactician may cast Suggestion as a spell-like ability as a wizard of caster level equal to his class level.
    This is... almost useful.

    Multiple Force Movement (Su): A tactician may move more than one creature with his Force Movement ability by dividing up the total movement in 5 ft. increments.
    Not bad, I guess? Your movement amount is already pitifully low.

    Aura of Adversity (Su): A burst of the radius indicated around the tactician is treated as difficult terrain by all of his foes.
    That's actually not half bad.

    Halt Action (Su): A tactician may use a use of his Halt Movement ability to stop a creature's standard action. The creature may resist this with a will save of DC 10 + 1/2 the tactician's class level + the tactician's Int modifier.
    This is useful; trade your immediate action for another's standard action.

    Advanced Tactics (Ex): Whenever a tactician moves an ally with his Force Movement ability, that ally may gain Tactical Strike +1d6 until the end of their turn.
    So at level 14, you can spend a move action to give an ally +1d6 damage... against another target you move with Force Movement. To clarify, you need to use two move actions, one against an ally, one against an enemy who fails his save, just to give your ally +1d6 damage on his attacks. At level 14.

    I can add more bonus damage with level 1 spells.

    Silent Watcher (Su): A number of rounds per day equal to his class level, a Tactician may turn himself intangible, gaining the incorporeal subtype. These rounds need not be used together, and turning incorporeal is a minor action. All of a tactician's abilities still function when incorporeal.
    What is a minor action? Incorporeal isn't bad.

    Master Warmaker (Su): A number of times per day equal to his Int modifier, a tactician may move any number of creatures within a 30 foot radius burst to any other point within that radius. This ability functions as the Dimension Door spell, except used on other creatures.
    So does this prevent them from doing anything else in the round, like dimension door? If so, the fact it offers no save makes this an absurdly useful ability for keeping enemies from doing anything. If not... well, it's useful if there is something dangerous to drop enemies in.

    In short, this class is very poor. It's a martial class with bad proficiences and horrible BAB, with a horribly sub-par damaging ability and a movement ability that can hardly be used offensively and doesn't move much even if you use it to help your allies. The only real features are the capstone, which if it negates actions is broken, and the ability to sometimes negate enemy actions, which is useful, but not enough to drag this out of T6.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    --Good Stuff--
    Milskidasith has it right (and just saved me a lot of time). I'm also puzzled by the combination of spells and martial abilities...it seems like this is trying to be a martial class, but you stuck spell-like abilities on for some reason. They don't seem to fit (nor does teleportation or becoming incorporeal, in my mind). Perhaps consider martial maneuvers (Setting Sun and White Raven might be useful), and adding more "mundane" (although not nerfed) tactical abilities?

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

    Raise the BAB, add more tactical strike damage (like the rogue progression, probably), and let allies you move with force movement get the full bonus.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    For a class with low BAB, seems a bit high to have martial weapon proficiencies. However... I don't understand the point of low BAB on a class with incredibly limited class features that seems, in all honesty, to be martial-ish anyway. At least medium BAB.
    Medium BAB? Done and Done.

    So it's a low amount of positioning; in the end, you can move a creature 35 feet (less than a move action) using your own move action, if they fail a standard will save. Not amazing for a primary class feature.
    True. I've doubled the amount of movement given; Would you recommend increasing it more? In addition, would making the movement provoke attacks of opportunity as normal movement would help out here?

    A martial ability on a class with bad BAB. Seriously, raise the BAB. Plus, unlike other add damage effects, this completely prevents you from full attacking (uses your move action) or takes multiple turns to set up a full tactical strike, and the damage is pitifully low.
    Done and done.

    This is flavorful, I guess, if useless.
    Agreed. I've tossed it in favor of another ability, most likely Hesitate as an SLA.

    It's an immediate action. You wouldn't need to ready an action anyway; readied actions are only to take non-immediate actions later than normal.
    That's a result of me typing this without books on hand. Fixed.

    This should be a nonaction, not an immediate action (immediate actions are valuable, and only show up once per turn, plus this negates your other class features and swift action items). Though you could never hit an attack of opportunity, I just don't see what limited extra movement would do.
    See Previous comment

    This is... almost useful.
    Thanks? I'm thinking of switching this one out as well, probably for a hold monster effect.

    Not bad, I guess? Your movement amount is already pitifully low.
    See above.

    That's actually not half bad.
    Sweet.

    This is useful; trade your immediate action for another's standard action.
    Keeping it as it is.

    So at level 14, you can spend a move action to give an ally +1d6 damage... against another target you move with Force Movement. To clarify, you need to use two move actions, one against an ally, one against an enemy who fails his save, just to give your ally +1d6 damage on his attacks. At level 14.
    I can add more bonus damage with level 1 spells.
    Got it. That's another ability I thought might need boosting. Also keep in mind, that thanks to Multiple Force Movement, you need only spend one move action to move your ally and your foe.

    What is a minor action? Incorporeal isn't bad.
    Made it a free action. The idea is that a Tactician can remove himself from combat except his abilities, making him less of a thing to be hit and more of a constant buff on the team.

    So does this prevent them from doing anything else in the round, like dimension door? If so, the fact it offers no save makes this an absurdly useful ability for keeping enemies from doing anything. If not... well, it's useful if there is something dangerous to drop enemies in.
    I thought this would be mainly useful to set up every creature in a flanking position. I've considered switching it to the same style as Force Movement, resulting in a veritable ton of Tactical Strike damage.

    In short, this class is very poor. It's a martial class with bad proficiences and horrible BAB, with a horribly sub-par damaging ability and a movement ability that can hardly be used offensively and doesn't move much even if you use it to help your allies. The only real features are the capstone, which if it negates actions is broken, and the ability to sometimes negate enemy actions, which is useful, but not enough to drag this out of T6.
    Got it.
    As always, thank you for your input.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

    I don't think the pseudo sneak attack is fitting for the class. Perhaps grant the extra damage to allies as well?

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

    Quote Originally Posted by deuxhero View Post
    I don't think the pseudo sneak attack is fitting for the class. Perhaps grant the extra damage to allies as well?
    Do you mean before Advanced Tactics at level 14? At early levels, the strike is more for you to survive combat.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

    Bump for hopeful commenting. :3
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

    Point of possible interest: That image is from either the 3.0 or 3.5 PHB or DMG originally. I think 3.0, as if it was 3.5 there would be more comments, and I think those are the only versions I got hard copy.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

    Quote Originally Posted by IonDragon View Post
    Point of possible interest: That image is from either the 3.0 or 3.5 PHB or DMG originally. I think 3.0, as if it was 3.5 there would be more comments, and I think those are the only versions I got hard copy.
    It's from the 3.5 PHB.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

    Another thing to think about, the Field Officer from d20 future gets some pretty cool abilities with leadership and spending his action points to give bonuses to his team-mates.

    I'm not sure how well it would fit in, but it's a thought.
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    Hmmm.. Not too shabby. I think I'd do pretty well. Who knows?

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

    Quote Originally Posted by DueceEsMachine View Post
    Another thing to think about, the Field Officer from d20 future gets some pretty cool abilities with leadership and spending his action points to give bonuses to his team-mates.

    I'm not sure how well it would fit in, but it's a thought.
    I'm not familiar with d20 future. Do they use the same Action Point rules as the ones offered in UA?
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacarath View Post
    I'm not familiar with d20 future. Do they use the same Action Point rules as the ones offered in UA?
    Yes. The action point system is essentially the same across Eberron, UA, and d20 Modern.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    Yes. The action point system is essentially the same across Eberron, UA, and d20 Modern.
    Hm. Honestly, I've never been a fan of the action point system, and I think that would be better located in feat and PrC territory.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacarath View Post
    Hm. Honestly, I've never been a fan of the action point system, and I think that would be better located in feat and PrC territory.
    Personally, I'm a great fan of action points. They allow PCs to avoid dying from bad rolls, attempt truly heroic feats, provide a way to revise existing feats to give extra effects with action points (eg. "A character with Weapon Focus can roll d10s instead of d6s when spending an action point to improve an attack roll or critical hit confirmation roll with that weapon").

    The one real flaw in the system is that the action point recharge mechanic sucks hard if you make any attempt to deviate from the standard 13 1/3 encounters per level-up.

    What exactly is it about them that you dislike?

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

    To me, action points have always created a conflict of interest - if I save them for when I make a bad roll, I tend to feel they've been wasted on bad rolls, while I'm always reluctant to use them for good rolls in case I need them for bad rolls. In addition, I dislike the rules for gaining them - I feel that is one of the things they did very right in 4e.

    If you'd like to continue the discussion, I'd prefer it be done via PM, as to avoid clogging the thread with off-topic discussion.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

    Bumping for hopeful comments.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

    Bumping fro spring comments.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Tactician (Currently PEACHable)

    Any other thoughts, all? I'd appreciate the input!
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