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    Default Disciple of Mephistopheles redux [PEACH]

    This is a continuation of a project begun by Sir_Chivalry, to fill out the Disciple classes from BoVD and to bring them up to speed. I was involved in flavour, while Drolyt was calling the power-level issues [i hesitate to call anything to do with the optimiser mindset balance]. As a continuation, I've refitted the Disciple of Mephistopheles from a shooty little devil to what is possibly the ultimate bastard ever to be created for D&D.

    So, without further ado:

    Disciple of Mephistopheles:
    The arch-devil Mephistopheles is a treacherous user, dedicated to gaining as much power for himself for the minimum of investment. His tendency is to hand out power in small measures, though far more excessively than other devils tend to, in exchange for the permanent sacrifice of the bargainers' soul and a constant supply of devotion. As the contract of this sacrifice is purposefully full of loopholes, most Disciples spend their time in Mephistopheles' service honestly worshipping the source of their powers and trying to figure out a way of exploiting one of these loopholes and freeing himself.

    As, for his part, the goal is to secure devotion to further a gambit towards godhood, Mephistopheles rarely cares if his charges manage to slip the loop, though they will lose their powers the moment the contract is null.

    Prerequisites:
    In order to become a Disciple of Mephistopheles, a character must meet the following requirements:
    Skills: Spellcraft 5 ranks, Knowledge [The Planes] 5 ranks
    Feats: Iron Will, Sacrificial Mastery
    Spellcasting: Must be able to cast 2nd level spells
    Special: If a Divine Caster, must possess at least one Domain from the following: Baator, Diabolic, Evil or Fire

    Special: In order to become a Disciple, a prospective candidate must attract the attention of a suitable devil by sacrificing a living, sentient being of at least 8 HD in a fire that burns with Helfire. The devil will materials as the screams die, at which point a contract of service may be negotiated. When the negotiation is complete [for this to not be entirely in Mephistopheles' favour, a DC 25 Diplomacy check is needed], the character's Iron Will feat is replaced with Brand of the Nine HellsFC2. The character is now free to enter the Disciple class.


    {table=head]Level |
    _BAB_
    |
    _Fort_
    |
    _Ref_
    |
    _Will_
    |_Notes: |_Casting

    1 |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |The Contract, The Smallest Taste |+1 level of existing class

    2 |
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Blood of Cania, The Least Trade |+1 level of existing class

    3 |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Coven |+1 level of existing class

    4 |
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |The Lesser Trade |+1 level of existing class

    5 |
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Syn Dealer |-

    6 |
    +3
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Living Loophole |+1 level of existing class

    7 |
    +3
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |The Greater Trade |+1 level of existing class

    8 |
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |Concentrated Syn |+1 level of existing class

    9 |
    +4
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |The Dark Trade |+1 level of existing class

    10 |
    +5
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Tainted Apotheosis |-[/table]

    Hit Dice: d6
    Class Skills: Appraise [Int], Bluff [Cha], Decipher Script [Int], Diplomacy [Cha], Gather Information [Cha], Intimidate [Cha], Knowledge (All skills, taken individually) [Int], Sense Motive [Wis], Spellcraft [Int]
    Skill points per level: 4 + Int



    Class Abilities:
    Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: Discipleship provides no additional skill in weapons or armour.

    Spellcasting: At each level, the raw power of the Faustian bargain struck by the disciple infuses greater powers into the spellcaster. He gains spells known and spells per day, along with a caster level increase as if he had gained a level in a previously possessed class. If he had more than one spellcasting class prior to becoming a disciple, he must choose which to advance at each level.

    The Contract: On becoming a Disciple of Mephistopheles, the character signs a contract for power. This includes a stipulation of how many years the contract remains in effect and what actions can lengthen and shorten the time of the contract. If the character runs out of time or dies by any other means [breaking terms], his soul cannot be retrieved by any means below 16th level magic. The shortening effects are listed in the class features, while a basic list of extending qualities are listed below.

    A newly invested disciple has a total of 7 years and a day of time before their debt is called; a total of 365 weeks in which to have their fun. These weeks are used as a countdown to reclamation and are reduced when certain powers are used, on every Sunday at midnight and if the character ever performs an act that benefits another more than it does him [in which case, he loses a week from his total].
    • For every sacrifice of a sentient victim of good alignment and at least 10 HD, the Disciple's time is extended by a week [if no other sacrifice benefit is claimed].
    • If a mission is undertaken at the behest of Mephistopheles himself, the character gains a number of weeks equal to the highest CR faced in the mission.
    • If the disciple negotiates the contract of another disciple, he may remove up to 52 weeks from that lesser disciple's term. He must get the victim's permission to do this, but can make an unbelievable [+10 on Sense Motive] Bluff check to convince then that it's not in their detriment or even necessary to gain access to the class.


    Keep track of the number of weeks spent in a given day and deduct them at midnight. Should the Disciple ever remove more than 10% of his weeks in a single day, the moment this occurs, he must make a DC 20 + Weeks spent Will save or Panic for 3d6 rounds as he realises how much he has shortened his life by.

    The Smallest Taste [Sp]: At their first level, a disciple gains their first gift of their sacrifice. They must instantly sacrifice two spell slots of the same level permanently, in exchange gaining an Eldritch Blast power that deals a number of d8s in damage equal to the level of the sacrificed spells. This ability is a spell-like one and can be used once per round as a standard action, at will. Spell resistance and the like applies, though no form of energy or damage resistance applies to this damage.

    At any time, the Disciple may spend an hour and one week of his term to unbind these spell slots and then bind a new pair. This may be done for a number of reasons, though usually in order to take advantage of newly acquired, higher level slots, or perhaps a plan requires their highest level spell slots…

    Blood of Cania [Ex]: The power you draw from Mephistopheles is somewhat contaminating. Each time that you fail an attack roll against a foe or a foe passes a save against a spell or ability you possess, you gain a cumulative +1 bonus on attacks, damage rolls, save DCs and checks on aggressive skill uses. These modifiers disappear as soon as you successfully strike a target or a foe fails a save against one of your abilities.

    For every +1 bonus you presently possess, you suffer a -1 penalty to defence; this disappears when you successfully affect a target with an attack or ability too.

    (This is effectively Mark of Cania from Fiendish Codex 2, though retooled to be a little more internally consistant in effect. It counts as Mark of Cania for all purposes)

    The Least Trade [Sp]: At second level, the Disciple gains the ability to sacrifice power for greater power in a trade of life for power. They may choose to sacrifice a spell slot on a semi-permanent basis to gain access to a Least Invocation from the Warlock list. They may use this invocation as a Standard action at will.

    At any time, as a free action, the disciple may choose to replace this invocation with another. Doing so costs the disciple a number of weeks form his contract equal to the equivalent spell level of the NEW invocation being chosen. If the new invocation's effective level is different from the previously sacrificed slot, the original slot becomes unbound, empty, and a new slot that is presently full must be sacrificed to the binding effects of the contract.

    Coven: A simple trick for a disciple is to make a limited deal with a minion, granting them a taste of power and hopefully luring them into making a contract with Mephistopheles themselves [which you will, of course, take a brokerage fee from]. The coven consists of a number of NPCs whose level cannot exceed half the disciple's Diplomacy ranks and whose total number cannot exceed the sum of his stat bonuses. Note that if any of his allies reach 10 HD, they are generally more use to the disciple as a sacrifice than as a minion.

    Once each week, the disciple may call a convocation and issue missions to his cultists, including accompanying him places. If so desired, he may grant abilities to some of his coven members; In doing so, he sacrifices a spell lot to the coven member, granting an Invocation of similar effective level or an Eldritch Blast as per the Smallest Taste with a number of dice equal to the spell level. Doing so costs weeks from his sentence as stated in the table below. Obviously the slot remains expended for the whole week:

    {table=head]Ability Granted |Cost [Weeks]
    Eldritch Blast |1
    Least Invocation |1
    Lesser Invocation |2
    Greater Invocation |3
    Dark Invocation |4[/table]

    A Disciple is allowed to take as many Coven members with him as he wishes wherever he goes but each member's actions count as his own: the more of them present in one place, the more likely it is that they will accidentally benefit another more than themselves. Note that helping other members of the coven is just as bad as helping outsiders. Granting powers in this way, is not considered helpful to the recipient, however.

    The Lesser Trade [Sp]: At fourth level, the disciple may accept a Lesser invocation in place of a spell slot with a level equal to the equivalent level of the invocation being bound [hence, a 4th equivalent level invocation requires a 4th level spell slot]. This ability otherwise functions identically to The Least Trade.

    Syn Dealer [Item Creation]: The blood of a disciple slowly twists into something more akin to ichor. When injected into another, it behaves as a highly addictive drug that twists their form and grants power. At a cost of 5 weeks of their contract, a fifth level disciple can extract some of their blood, creating a number of doses of Syn up to their level plus their Constitution modifier. Each dose of Syn requires the sacrifice of a spell slot that remains spent until the Syn is used or goes off.

    When injected, Syn grants the Fiendish template to the recipient for a number of days equal to the spell slot expended in its making. Unused Syn does bad at the stroke of midnight on the following Sunday. Anyone injecting Syn into their blood must make a DC 10 + Class level + Con bonus, Fortitude save or become addicted to the Fiendish state [Moderate addiction]. While in withdrawl, victims lose all track of right and wrong, leaving them very willing servants if it means another dose. As might be expected, it being made from his blood, but the Disciple is immune to Syn.

    Obviously, a Disciple must be careful how they use this ability, given its cost. It works best when the campaign is run mostly by higher level experts, aristocrats and commoners, things that groups of addicts can successfully kidnap, or if forcibly injected into higher level character or those able to become Disciples themselves.

    If the disciple possesses the Brew Potion feat, he may spend 100xp to render doses permanent and free up the spell slot once more. This allows him to keep a smaller number of victims on the hook without expending additional weeks of his contract.

    Living Loophole [Su]: Whenever a disciple of Mephistopheles enters a contract, he does it on his own terms. As a result, by sixth level, he has an instinct for such things. He automatically sees a handful of ways of getting around the terms of the contract. In game terms, this means that the group stops and has a brainstorming session until they find a number of ways of exploiting the wording equal to the disciple's class level. The GM should be free in rewarding the most duplicitous ideas come up with as it furthers the story.

    The Greater Trade [Sp]: At seventh level, the disciple may accept a Greater invocation in place of a spell slot, as per The Least Trade.

    Concentrated Syn [Item Creation]: At eighth level, the disciple learns the secret of concentrating his blood to make significantly stronger Syn. From now on, when he makes Syn, he may choose to sacrifice two additional weeks to transform a dose into Concentrated Syn. He may convert as much of a batch as he wishes in this manner. Rendering Concentrated Syn permanent costs 500xp.

    Concentrated Syn functions much like normal Syn, but grants the Half Fiend template rather than Fiendish. Additionally, the visual changes are hidden by a limited Glammer until the recipient becomes angry, allowing them to pass for normal.

    The Dark Trade [Sp]: At ninth level, the disciple may accept a Dark invocation in place of a spell slot, as per The Least Trade.

    Tainted Apotheosis: At tenth level, the disciple reaches a sort of exemplar status with the nature of Mephistopheles. He has created so many trap deals and suspect trades that his very nature is suspect and more than meets the eye. At this point, Mephistopheles has come to the conclusion that the disciple is more profitable on the prime than as a damned soul and has extended a new contract, still limiting but far more amusing from the disciple's point of view.

    As a ritual that takes an hour, the disciple may make a Faustian pact with another character. Doing so costs the recipient their soul [which goes to Mephistopheles] and they are granted between one year and seven to enjoy it, depending on the work required to achieve it. The disciple fulfils this contract by granting a Wish [if using the Feanmerc epic spells variant, up to a 15th level wish] and possibly granting the powers [but not the HD or anything other than class features] of a 5th level warlock to the recipient. Enacting this Wish costs the disciple ten weeks from his time remaining [Mephistopheles' patience is less than considerable].

    This wish is always enacted to grant something that is inarguably what was wished for but never what was intended. The reason for this is not so much sadism as selfishness on the part of the granter. Each time the recipient of the deal performs an evil action, the disciple's time is extended by one week; as a result, everything they grant with this power is designed to force the recipient to perform acts of evil. The most important proviso is that if the results of the pact are ever turned on the disciple, they unravel: powers cease to function, guards mutiny and the pact maker's gold is suddenly found to be suspect.

    A disciple can sustain a number of wish effects at a time equal to this Constitution modifier, though he could have more pacts in place if he can swing it. For instance, he could make a pact with a freedom fighter to create a utopia once the tyrant he created previously is dead; in this case, the wish is not granted until the tyrant is dead but everything the freedom fighter does in the pursuit of this goal count towards his evil rewards. Once the tyrant is dead, he would, of course, be obliged to grant the wish if he wanted to keep the pact going [and why wouldn't he?].

    Conclusions:
    This class would make a campaign where it's played as a PC class somewhat skewif; while powerful in itself, its main ability it so mess with the setting. Its going to dominate play-time with its constant quests, captures, deals and plots but on the other hand, it can be the driving force behind a campaign.

    On the other hand, for people like me, who don't like the idea of a villain just having abilities by caveat, its a goldmine.

    Now, Drolyt, if you would be so kind...
    Last edited by Mulletmanalive; 2010-03-16 at 03:12 PM.
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Disciple of Mephistopheles redux [PEACH]

    It looks a bit powerful for a 10/10 casting class. Maybe drop a caster level at 1 or 10?
    My homebrew:

    Spoiler
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    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

    The Narrow Bridge
    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



    Worthwhile links:

    Age of Warriors

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    Default Re: Disciple of Mephistopheles redux [PEACH]

    I doubt it would miss anything if it was lost at 10, but i'll wait for a few more oppinions. This actually breaks most of what i consider the rules of "good design" but as most of what it does requires sacrifice or shortening it's existence, i wasn't too sure that it COULD be overpowered...
    Mine is not so much a Peter Pan Complex as a Peter Pan Doom Fortress and Underground LairTM!
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    Default Re: Disciple of Mephistopheles redux [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    I doubt it would miss anything if it was lost at 10, but i'll wait for a few more oppinions. This actually breaks most of what i consider the rules of "good design" but as most of what it does requires sacrifice or shortening it's existence, i wasn't too sure that it COULD be overpowered...
    For an NPC, the lack of time is... really not that big a deal. Most adventurers wouldn't care either, being hyper-heavily armed violent hobos, and longevity isn't super relevant to their lives.

    Personally, I'd make this 8/10 casting.

    EDIT: I like the class, btw.
    Last edited by arguskos; 2010-03-14 at 05:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Disciple of Mephistopheles redux [PEACH]

    My main concern with cutting the casting is that it'll make The Dark Trade more meaningless... as it is, it's unlikely to be used until the class has long expired with a culling, it's looking at 19th level before it sees play, if at all.

    I've missed out that Coven costs slots while it's at it. I'll add those at some point tomorrow.

    Got any suggestions for the "I can't power my abilities because this is an 8/10 class" issue? I was considering allowing them to treat all slots as one higher for every 4 Vile feats they possess? Something like that...
    Mine is not so much a Peter Pan Complex as a Peter Pan Doom Fortress and Underground LairTM!
    Fae-o-matic Want a fae from folklore stated? Give me the lore and I'll do it for you!
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    Default Re: Disciple of Mephistopheles redux [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post

    Got any suggestions for the "I can't power my abilities because this is an 8/10 class" issue? I was considering allowing them to treat all slots as one higher for every 4 Vile feats they possess? Something like that...
    Hmm, not sure. Given that they need to use the slots for class features it may be ok.

    Also, noticed another issue
    If a Divine Caster, must possess at least one Domain from the following:
    and then there's nothing.
    My homebrew:

    Spoiler
    Show


    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

    The Narrow Bridge
    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



    Worthwhile links:

    Age of Warriors

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Disciple of Mephistopheles redux [PEACH]

    I've been musing over this one.

    The problem with the use of lifespan as a currency is that it is more of a roleplaying penalty than a in-game penalty.

    For player characters, either they have a strong attachment to their character, in which case they will be unlikely to play this class, or they have little attachment, in which they have almost no limitation.

    It also necessitates an increased speed of the adventure and likely an increase in player-determined adventuring, which can be more challenging (and break the verisimilitude with the whole 7 levels in 7 weeks thing), makes the dm look like a jerk if he deliberately slows thing down too much (negating the opportunity cost) and puts the character 'in the spotlight'.

    The area where this would shine would be for a specific campaign where a 'redeemed' or just plain evil disciple has to get his soul back before the time counts down.


    As an NPC, the same problem falls for the DM. How likely are they to give up a week of life in a life or death struggle or just for added fun. There's too much temptation to polarize it either way.

    In all, I like the idea, but I think the Faustian (and demonic equivalent) pacts are probably more appropriate, for most campaigns. Not saying a good group could really make this class fun, just saying that this is probably only for good role-players only.

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    Default Re: Disciple of Mephistopheles redux [PEACH]

    What happens if they go to a timeless plane, like the Astral, or a plane with relative time, like some of the chaotics?

    Best use subjective time, then.
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    Default Re: Disciple of Mephistopheles redux [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    What happens if they go to a timeless plane, like the Astral, or a plane with relative time, like some of the chaotics?

    Best use subjective time, then.
    That would be correct; the contract grants the deal-maker a term of empowerment. The recipient would have to be the yardstick. If they started taking the Mick, i'm sure that Mephistophilese would send someone or something to settle accounts.

    Rainbownaga: I really didn't like the WotC Faustian pact thing. If you got that little return from selling your soul, you'd have to be a total idiot to even consider it...

    I've designed this for my style of play. I rather like strange [for RPG] narrative devices: played cut-scenes, time-skips and montage fight sequences occur with reasonable regularity.

    Not that it matters overmuch; aside from the Syn abilities, you'd have to bounce around Invocations like crazy for the weeks to have any direct effect on play; everything else uses spell slots.

    General:
    I've added the domains and replaced the text in Coven to correct a few things. Changes in Red.
    Mine is not so much a Peter Pan Complex as a Peter Pan Doom Fortress and Underground LairTM!
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    Default Re: Disciple of Mephistopheles redux [PEACH]

    So is Sir_Chivalry not doing this anymore? Anyways I haven't had time to look through it thoroughly to see if there is anything broken, but honestly although it is powerful I'm not sure it's exactly broken. For the most part Warlock Invocations aren't that powerful, the nicest thing about gaining them with this class is the increased versatility (a few of them can do things that regular casters either can't or have a harder time doing, and obviously being able to use them without expending slots is sometimes useful). As for the Syn item, I'm fairly certain there was a spell that made you a Half-Fiend... I'm not sure, I know that in BoED there's a spell to make you a Half-Celestial, anyways it is a nice ability but it's no better than polymorph, which this class will almost certainly have by then.

    Two things: 1. This class makes the Warlock almost completely useless. Seriously, you completely overrule their usefulness. You might not care, Warlocks are generally considered one of the worst classes anyways although many (including myself) think they are fun to play. 2. Sorcerers gain more benefits than any other class because of the huge versatility gain (similar for other spontaneous casters, but Sorcerers benefit the most even if you include them). Again this might not be a problem, it doesn't really affect power level so much as versatility.

    I think the issue with this class is that it gives you a lot of additional power at very little cost, but doesn't actually make you more powerful, if you understand my meaning. It's like gaining twice as many spell slots (although not nearly that good), you get a lot more versatility but you aren't really any more powerful. Still, one or two spell level losses wouldn't hurt that much, but I think a better choice would be to reduce the skill points to 2 and the hit die to d4, that at the very least doesn't make it seem like such an obvious choice for a wizard/sorcerer.

    So right. This class isn't broken, it's just really good. Also note that as long as you keep sacrificing people you never have to worry about the pact thing.

    Oh, one more thing, not all divine casters have domains. Currently you can't enter this class as a Favored Soul for example, although I suppose flavor wise that makes very little sense anyways unless Mephistopheles can create Favored Souls like a deity, which would suggest archfiends much more powerful than in standard D&D. Same problem with Druid, they currently can't take the class but a Druid making a Faustian pact would be weird anyways.

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    Default Re: Disciple of Mephistopheles redux [PEACH]

    Reports of my demise were greatly overblown, Drolyt.

    Well, all I have to say is that looks like a very good class there. I'd agree that a loss of caster levels (best place to put those is 5 and 10, for flow purposes) would be the right road.

    The Syn abilities are pure gold, and the invocations, though stealing the warlock's thunder, seem to be the only thing this class has going for it in combat besides the continued advancement of spells.
    Feel free to PM me if you want something PEACHed. I may not be one of the greats, but I'll do it if you ask.

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    Default Re: Disciple of Mephistopheles redux [PEACH]

    Okay, i've trimmed the casting and added a mechanic to cull week spamming [spend to many and you'll panic because realise that you've shortened your life so much in one go].

    If anything, I think this has potential if used as the opposite to a Disciple of Asmodeus in a semi-intruigue or crime based game. Similarly, having one of these guys behind a string of disappearances in the adventuring community...
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    Default Re: Disciple of Mephistopheles redux [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    Okay, i've trimmed the casting and added a mechanic to cull week spamming [spend to many and you'll panic because realise that you've shortened your life so much in one go].

    If anything, I think this has potential if used as the opposite to a Disciple of Asmodeus in a semi-intruigue or crime based game. Similarly, having one of these guys behind a string of disappearances in the adventuring community...
    That works, but your little spoiler there tells me your confused. The class is good yes, but now that you've made it cost 2 caster levels it is balanced fine, even without the roleplaying restrictions. Hell, you could take out the whole Faustian pact thingy and it wouldn't be unbalanced, because caster level loss hurts. Sorcerers in particular won't get 9th level spells till 20th level because of this, and they are the ones that would otherwise benefit the most. So this is a fairly strong option, but even if the player finds ways to never worry about the whole selling his soul thing they won't be overpowered.

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    Default Re: Disciple of Mephistopheles redux [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Drolyt View Post
    That works, but your little spoiler there tells me your confused. The class is good yes, but now that you've made it cost 2 caster levels it is balanced fine, even without the roleplaying restrictions. Hell, you could take out the whole Faustian pact thingy and it wouldn't be unbalanced, because caster level loss hurts. Sorcerers in particular won't get 9th level spells till 20th level because of this, and they are the ones that would otherwise benefit the most. So this is a fairly strong option, but even if the player finds ways to never worry about the whole selling his soul thing they won't be overpowered.
    I'm confused? Probably, but then, I consider anyone who considers that D&D is anything more than cooperative storytelling is talking nonsense [shrug].

    Removing the pact would make this class rubbish in my oppinion. Feel free to remove it, but it was always intended to be selling your soul; no more, no less.
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    Default Re: Disciple of Mephistopheles redux [PEACH]

    One note though, assuming this is in the same vein as mine, are we going to work in the Mark of Cania into the class, probably around second level like the others?
    Feel free to PM me if you want something PEACHed. I may not be one of the greats, but I'll do it if you ask.

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    Default Re: Disciple of Mephistopheles redux [PEACH]

    One Mark of Cania, retooled to be more...logical, as requested.

    Seriously, why would being angry and not defending yourself make you more resilient to poison, mental effects and more able to avoid explosions?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    One Mark of Cania, retooled to be more...logical, as requested.

    Seriously, why would being angry and not defending yourself make you more resilient to poison, mental effects and more able to avoid explosions?
    I think the idea is you're just too angry and passionate to let any of that stop you.
    Last edited by Sir_Chivalry; 2010-03-16 at 03:08 PM.
    Feel free to PM me if you want something PEACHed. I may not be one of the greats, but I'll do it if you ask.

    "One of us is tender,
    One of us is not,
    One of us takes vengeance,
    All four tied in a knot
    "

    My homebrew

    (U)sually in any game situation the biggest control freak will gravitate towards the job of being the GM anyway.

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    Default Re: Disciple of Mephistopheles redux [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    I'm confused? Probably, but then, I consider anyone who considers that D&D is anything more than cooperative storytelling is talking nonsense [shrug].

    Removing the pact would make this class rubbish in my oppinion. Feel free to remove it, but it was always intended to be selling your soul; no more, no less.
    Sorry, I think you misunderstood me. You have a warning to DMs who think this class is overpowered. Since you gave it a caster level hit it is not. I like the whole pact thing. The class could potentially be retooled without it, but you'd have to give it a different flavor. What I meant when I said you could remove it is that it wouldn't affect the mechanics, other than that it pretty much defines the class. You did a good job.

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    Default Re: Disciple of Mephistopheles redux [PEACH]

    Yay! Cookie for me!

    I was actually looking at this idea and thinking that it would make an interesting change to the mechanics of the Warlock as is...

    I've always felt that the class was a bit...non-commital. I've never really bought into the Fae/Angelic power sources because i don't think Eldritch blast fits them too well [I actually did my version of the Fae warlock in my Bard variant, Orkney Bard that is]. With this whole contract idea, I think a lot of the..."issues" with the class could be ironed out somewhat [i know you could maintain a healthy sacrifice regimen but seriously, were are you going to get a steady supply of 10HD creatures? Ones that you have to bring in alive, i might add...] so you could choose the road of power or the road of endurance in your quest for power...
    Mine is not so much a Peter Pan Complex as a Peter Pan Doom Fortress and Underground LairTM!
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    Default Re: Disciple of Mephistopheles redux [PEACH]

    Disciple of Mephistopheles, meet the Nightsinger. Nightsinger, meet the Disciple. Play nice, you two.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: Disciple of Mephistopheles redux [PEACH]

    Damn.

    I actually remember the spoiler at the beginning but not the rest.

    For the crime of showing me awesome that I can't use, I sentence you to helping me convert this to work alongside my version of the Bard and help me balance it to tier 4, which is where i like my games.
    Mine is not so much a Peter Pan Complex as a Peter Pan Doom Fortress and Underground LairTM!
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    Sorry friend - I don't even know the tiers, let alone balance to them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Sorry friend - I don't even know the tiers, let alone balance to them.
    Tier 6 means you suck, and is reserved for the Samurai and NPC classes. Tier 5 means that you are a one trick pony, and you aren't necessarily very good at that trick. Tier 4 means either you are a one trick pony and very good at that trick, OR that you are somewhat competent in various areas. Tier 3 means you are very good in one area while not being useless in others, OR that you are good at everything but not as good as someone specialized in that area. Tier 2 means you are more powerful than any Tier 6-3 classes. Tier 1 means you are as powerful as Tier 2 and supremely versatile.

    Tier 5 examples are Fighter and Paladin. Tier 4 examples are Rogue and Warlock. Tier 3 examples are Bards, the ToB classes, and the True Necromancer/Beguiler. Tier 2 is mostly spontaneous casters such as Sorcerers and Favored Souls. Tier 1 is for prepared casters that can choose from a wide variety of spells every day, allowing them to apply overwhelming force in any given situation, prime examples being Wizards, Clerics, and Druids.

    Note that in many campaigns the difference between Tier 1 and 2 is small for a variety of reasons, but some DMs allow characters virtually unlimited prep time which makes Tier 1 classes completely broken.
    Last edited by Drolyt; 2010-03-18 at 12:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Disciple of Mephistopheles redux [PEACH]

    It hardly matters. I don't consider it true unless you're min-maxing stuff and i'm notorious for trimming the magic system down for settings.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    It hardly matters. I don't consider it true unless you're min-maxing stuff and i'm notorious for trimming the magic system down for settings.
    How true it is does depend on the game, however the difference between tiers 5 and 6 and the higher tiers is almost always true. Unless the Fighter is better optimized a Rogue is almost always more useful to have than a Fighter. Wizards easily drop tiers if not played correctly, but even healbot Clerics are far more effective than any Paladin. ToB classes will almost always outperform non-spellcaster PHB classes, as will the Beguiler and the Dread Necromancer.

    Of course the tiers might not actually matter to your game, everyone plays differently.

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    Default Re: Disciple of Mephistopheles redux [PEACH]

    I simply use them as a handy reference. I tend to find that people around here are more likely to know what I mean by saying "Teir 4" rather than anything else.
    Mine is not so much a Peter Pan Complex as a Peter Pan Doom Fortress and Underground LairTM!
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