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    Default [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    PSYWARP
    Psywarps (PyW) are characters who both crave and revile psionics. Some were directly injured by psionic practitioners; others witnessed the powers of a manifester in action and, in the witnessing, learned fear; most simply learned their hatred the old-fashioned way, from their families and peers. When all their loathing and hatred, all their carefully sown defenses proved inadequate in their minds, those who would become Psywarps turned their acrimony inward. They found, deep within the well of their rancor, a spark of power. By grasping and carefully nurturing that power without ever releasing their enmity for psionics, Psywarps came into being.

    Requirements
    To qualify to become a Psywarp (PyW), a character must fulfill the following criteria.
    Alignment: Any evil.
    Base Save Bonus: Fort +3, Will +3
    Skills: Autohypnosis 6 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 5 ranks, Knowledge (psionics) 8 ranks, Psicraft 8 ranks.
    Feats: Closed Mind, Skill Focus (Concentration)

    Skills
    The Psywarp's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Autohypnosis (Wis), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (psionics) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Psicraft (Int). See Chapter 4 of the Player’s Handbook for skill descriptions.
    Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

    HD:d6

    Class Features
    All of the following are class features of the Psywarp prestige class.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Psywarp gains no new proficiencies with any weapons or armor.

    Powers: A Psywarp gains the ability to manifest a number of psionic powers. To manifest a power, a Psywarp must have a CHA of at least 10 + the power's level, so a Psywarp with a CHA of 10 or less cannot manifest powers. A Psywarp’s ability to manifest powers is limited by the power points she has available. Her base daily allotment of power points is given on the table below, based on Psywarp level. In addition, she receives bonus power points per day if she has a high Charisma score (see the table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Power Points). Her race may also provide bonus power points per day, as may certain feats and items.

    Powers Known (Su): At 1st level, a Psywarp gains one wilder power of your choice. As indicated on the table below, a Psywarp gains two additional powers known at each subsequent level except 7th, 9th and 10th, when only one additional power is gained.

    Tessellated Closure (Ex): The unique structure of a Psywarp's cognitive patterns allows her to manifest powers, even with her Closed Mind. Starting at 1st level, she may continue to benefit from the Closed Mind feat while gaining psionic powers through the Psywarp prestige class. Any prestige classes taken subsequent to obtaining this ability gain the same benefit. If her alignment ever becomes Good, she loses this ability.

    Power Resistance (Su): At 3rd level, a Psywarp gains Power Resistance 15; this ability only affects psionics and psi-like abilities, regardless of Magic/Psionic transparency. At 7th level, this increases to Power Resistance 20.

    Staggering Madness (Su): Starting at 5th level, a Psywarp gains the ability to cannibalize a small part of her own essence in order to manifest additional powers. As a standard action, a Psywarp may sacrifice daily power points in order to increase his manifester level by an amount equal to one-half the power points sacrificed, rounded down. For example, a 5th level Psywarp can sacrifice 4 power points to increase his manifester level by 2. A Psywarp may not increase his ML above his ECL via Staggering Madness. This increased manifester level lasts for 1 round/2 PP sacrificed. Any power points sacrificed in this manner can only be regained by rest. A Psywarp may use this ability once per day per Psywarp level.

    Power Vacuum (Ex): At 10th level, a Psywarp's unique relationship with psionics acts as a detriment to those around him who rely on manifesting psionic powers. Once per day as a full-round action, a Psywarp may create a field of psionic static in a 15' radius, centered on himself. Anyone manifesting psionic powers within or into the field suffers a 25% chance that the power will fail, though their power points will still be expended. A Psywarp is immune to the effects of his own Power Vacuum.

    {table]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special Ability|PP/Day|Powers Known|Max Power Level
    1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Tessellated Closure|1|1|1st
    2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|-|5|3|2nd
    3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3|Power Resistance 15|11|5|3rd
    4th|+2|+1|+1|+4|-|19|7|4th
    5th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Staggering Madness|27|9|5th
    6th|+3|+2|+2|+5|-|43|11|5th
    7th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Power Resistance 20|59|12|6th
    8th|+4|+2|+2|+6|-|79|14|7th
    9th|+4|+3|+3|+6|-|103|15|8th
    10th|+5|+3|+3|+7|Power Vacuum|127|16|9th[/table]

    EDIT: formatting
    Last edited by Amphetryon; 2010-03-19 at 10:42 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    Oh boy. I'm not sure what you want from me, but I've never played or read much of anything about Psionics.

    Know(Arcana) seems incredibly weird on a class that doesn't have Know(All) -or- the ability to cast arcane spells. Wait, I just(read: 4 paragraphs of typing later) noticed that Know(Arcana) is a requirement. Why?

    What's the 'standard' entry into the class?

    Power's Known follows a non-patterned progression that front-loads powers to the start of the class. Since you're gaining more than one per level, there's no harm in evening it out a bit more to reward longer term investments, from what I can tell.

    This is a Cha-based caster, essentially, but you require 32 skill points to be spent to gain entry, assuming the character gets them all as class skills, which'll be unusual for that list, I think. Unless they're entering as a psion, but in which case, why would they jump ship to this class? I guess it would help to see your idea of a standard entry.

    Assuming power resistance works exactly like spell resistance, I'd up your numbers. Right now, they're approximately equal to the character's ECL, which means they're auto-pass by equal-leveled opponents or opponents with ML buffs. I'd also scale this one better. Perhaps make it based on class levels, like 21 + class level. That'd give you PR = 31 at L20, which only gives you a 50% shot at negating an equal manifester's powers.

    Staggering madness seems a little overpowered considering that I just looked through the SRD and there's a psionic restoration out there(Isn't there feat that adds any power to your powers known?) And then there's things like cohorts, party members, and so many other ways to get rid of drain. Burn might work for you, though.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    I agree. Too many skills are required, IMO. I'd drop Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (dungeoneering) as requirements and lower the required ranks in Knowledge (psionics) and Psicraft. Maybe require some ranks in Concentration if you want.

    I also agree that the PR should be a bit higher, and that you want ability burn for Staggering Madness instead of ability drain.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    Thanks for giving it a look and response.

    Know(Arcana) seems incredibly weird on a class that doesn't have Know(All) -or- the ability to cast arcane spells. Wait, I just(read: 4 paragraphs of typing later) noticed that Know(Arcana) is a requirement. Why?
    It's an Ur-Priest analog, which also has Knowledge (Arcana) required - and the same number of Knowledge skills required, if I didn't make a transpositional error. The Knowledges listed as requirements were the best fits to the theme of the PrC.

    What's the 'standard' entry into the class?
    Given the number of skills required at specific lengths, Factotum is almost expected. Cloistered Cleric, Erudite, and - oddly - Shugenja are also candidates, but Erudite would waste a feat on Closed Mind, and Cloistered Cleric/Shugenja don't have the class skills to make entry reasonable before 10th without dips or feat expenditure.

    Power's Known follows a non-patterned progression that front-loads powers to the start of the class. Since you're gaining more than one per level, there's no harm in evening it out a bit more to reward longer term investments, from what I can tell.
    Not sure that I understand this point as phrased. Only 2 powers/level are ever given, with only 1/level given at specific, listed, spots. The Psywarp's progression gives the largest number of powers known to 5th level, right in the middle of the progression.

    Assuming power resistance works exactly like spell resistance, I'd up your numbers. Right now, they're approximately equal to the character's ECL, which means they're auto-pass by equal-leveled opponents or opponents with ML buffs. I'd also scale this one better. Perhaps make it based on class levels, like 21 + class level. That'd give you PR = 31 at L20, which only gives you a 50% shot at negating an equal manifester's powers.
    The numbers are equivalent to the SR given for Ur-Priest, over a (potentially) larger group of adversaries, so I'm reluctant to increase them unless the class is otherwise weak.

    Staggering madness seems a little overpowered considering that I just looked through the SRD and there's a psionic restoration out there(Isn't there feat that adds any power to your powers known?) And then there's things like cohorts, party members, and so many other ways to get rid of drain. Burn might work for you, though.
    I used Staggering Madness as a way to get Psywarp's manifester level sufficiently high to manifest the upper level powers; without it, manifester level at 10th level is 10, insufficient to spend the number of PP needed for a 9th level power unless you're using Practiced Manifester and specific tricks. I chose ability drain because it is more difficult to overcome than damage, but damage/drain/burn all have multiple methods of being overcome, especially with the help of other party members and cohorts.

    Last edited by Amphetryon; 2010-03-16 at 03:27 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    It's an Ur-Priest analog, which also has Knowledge (Arcana) required - and the same number of Knowledge skills required, if I didn't make a transpositional error. The Knowledges listed as requirements were the best fits to the theme of the PrC.
    Except that it isn't. Ur-Priests are Ur-Priests cause they're stealing from the gods. Is a psywarp stealing from himself? Either way, why would he need to know about vancian magic when psionics are quite distinct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Given the number of skills required at specific lengths, Factotum is almost expected. Cloistered Cleric, Erudite, and - oddly - Shugenja are also candidates, but Erudite would waste a feat on Closed Mind, and Cloistered Cleric/Shugenja don't have the class skills to make entry reasonable before 10th without dips or feat expenditure.
    That's a pretty bad list of standard entry classes. Factotum aside, you've got:
    -A variant class
    -A broken class
    -A often unused alternative caster(I'm not familiar with him)

    Factotum is ok, but I don't get the impression that this is supposed to be a Factotum PrC

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Not sure that I understand this point as phrased. Only 2 powers/level are ever given, with only 1/level given at specific, listed, spots. The Psywarp's progression gives the largest number of powers known to 5th level, right in the middle of the progression.
    You get the 'delay' at 1,7,9,10, which three out of four of those levels are in the last four levels of the class. I'd suggest something more 'even', like 1,3,6,8 or 1,4,7,10

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    The numbers are equivalent to the SR given for Ur-Priest, over a (potentially) larger group of adversaries, so I'm reluctant to increase them unless the class is otherwise weak.
    Then scrap it. No sense having a 'junk' ability cluttering up the class. Again, assuming SR and PR are equivalent enough that I can extend my understanding of SR to this class, my current pbp party is going up against foes with SR 12+ at L6. And that's the mooks. To be relevant, it has to be high enough to actually stop things, and SR that is equal to opponent's CL is the very definition of irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    I used Staggering Madness as a way to get Psywarp's manifester level sufficiently high to manifest the upper level powers; without it, manifester level at 10th level is 10, insufficient to spend the number of PP needed for a 9th level power unless you're using Practiced Manifester and specific tricks. I chose ability drain because it is more difficult to overcome than damage, but damage/drain/burn all have multiple methods of being overcome, especially with the help of other party members and cohorts.

    Actually, since you're starting with a gimped manifester level, that's not nearly as bad as I was initially assuming.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    He needs to know about the ways that the 'cosmic stuff of the universe' is manipulated would be my 'flavor' response, but my reading of your response indicates that's insufficient.

    I'm not quite sure why K(arcana) on a divine caster that didn't need arcane spells for entry isn't bothersome while it is on a psionicist. Could you clarify, other than 'it's different'?

    What's a standard entry to Ur-Priest, in your experience? I'm curious.

    Do you find the Ur-Priest's SR so horrid that it should be scrapped? I'm curious.

    I don't perceive 1st level as a 'delay', so that's where that opinion difference stems from. There are significant bumps in PP/day at 7th and 9th level, and I did not want to have multiple levels with 9th level access starting from non-access before entry, given the likelihood that the PrC would not be the build's capstone.

    Honestly, Psywarp is unlikely to be entered from a 'single' class, which is why the list of those that could is of the more obscure types. A Rogue with sufficient INT and the ability to treat Psicraft and Autohypnosis as class skills could do it as well, I suppose, but I would expect most folks to waste - temporarily, thanks to Tessellated Closure - a feat on Closed Mind and dip Wilder or Psion. Alternately, spend two feats, one which I cannot currently name to get Psicraft as a class skill, and the second to do the same for Autohypnosis. The benefit would still be 9th level powers in 10 levels, plus whatever you did to enter the class and whatever you tacked on after. Cerebremancer, for instance, if you used a Sorc or Wiz entry method, was the impetus for this PrC thanks to this thread.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    Two points:

    1) Con drain is very unappealing, and requiring stat drain to let him use basic class features is not a good idea. I'd simply increase its ML otherwise--ML equal to character level, ML = 2 * class level, etc.

    2) You said you didn't want to give it access to 9th level powers for multiple levels, yet the ur-priest does just that. I see no problem with doing the same for this class.

    Otherwise, it looks good. Fairly powerful, but that's what making an ur-priest analog will get you.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    He needs to know about the ways that the 'cosmic stuff of the universe' is manipulated would be my 'flavor' response, but my reading of your response indicates that's insufficient.

    I'm not quite sure why K(arcana) on a divine caster that didn't need arcane spells for entry isn't bothersome while it is on a psionicist. Could you clarify, other than 'it's different'?
    The 'cosmic stuff of the universe' is Know(Planes).

    And I don't think I can clarify, other than Arcane and Divine are both vancian, and highly similar under both fluff and crunch while Psionics is highly different under both fluff and crunch, from either one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    What's a standard entry to Ur-Priest, in your experience? I'm curious.
    Don't know. I've managed to avoid the Ur-Priest for the most part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Do you find the Ur-Priest's SR so horrid that it should be scrapped? I'm curious.
    Definitely. A situational SR that doesn't even matter relevant to CR appropriate encounters. I'm sure its among the reasons that Ur-priest is dipped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    I don't perceive 1st level as a 'delay', so that's where that opinion difference stems from. There are significant bumps in PP/day at 7th and 9th level, and I did not want to have multiple levels with 9th level access starting from non-access before entry, given the likelihood that the PrC would not be the build's capstone.
    Keep in mind, PP/day and powers known aren't 'class features' in the same extent that the other ones are. You can dip than progress elsewhere, and still get them.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    Closed Mind says "You cannot take or use this feat if you have the ability to use powers (if you have a power point reserve or psi-like abilities)." So I'd be explicit that taking levels in this class does not make you lose Closed Mind. Otherwise you are going to get weird issues. I'd also consider letting Psionic Hole qualify instead of Closed Mind, especially given the fluff of Psionic Hole.

    I'm concerned about the class. While the number of skill points required is very high, the total number of ranks you need in any given skill is not. Thus, I can qualify for this class at 5th level with something like Factotum 3/Monk 2 (presumably taking the Monk levels before the Factotum levels). That means that I get 9th level powers at 15th level. That's a problem. Even if you need to use some tricks to bump manifester level to do it that's going to be an issue. (Practiced Manifester and Overchannel would be enough and the damage would be easy to handle. Even with con burn there's a lot of cheese I can do with 9th level powers.

    Edit: And with con drain there are a lot of ways of handling it. Restoration would be the obvious one as would a 1 level dip into Binder to bind Naberius. Monk 2/Binder 1/Factotum 2 has no trouble qualifying either.
    Last edited by JoshuaZ; 2010-03-16 at 07:32 PM.
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    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

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    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Two points:

    1) Con drain is very unappealing, and requiring stat drain to let him use basic class features is not a good idea. I'd simply increase its ML otherwise--ML equal to character level, ML = 2 * class level, etc.

    2) You said you didn't want to give it access to 9th level powers for multiple levels, yet the ur-priest does just that. I see no problem with doing the same for this class.

    Otherwise, it looks good. Fairly powerful, but that's what making an ur-priest analog will get you.
    Another country heard from. Thanks for the input, Dice.

    1) I find it interesting, and slightly amusing, that half the folks want to drop Drain because it isn't enough of a penalty, while the other half want to drop Drain because it's too harsh. I wonder if that means it's on the right track or categorically awful, for both reasons.

    2) I suppose part of the reluctance is rooted in the extreme "re-useability" of Psionics compared to Vancian examples in Ur-Priest or the Apostle of Peace, which has a similar progression. It's something to thing about.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post

    1) I find it interesting, and slightly amusing, that half the folks want to drop Drain because it isn't enough of a penalty, while the other half want to drop Drain because it's too harsh. I wonder if that means it's on the right track or categorically awful, for both reasons.
    The problem is that con drain is a severe problem so that if you don't have a way to deal with it it makes this very not fun. But if you do have a way of dealing with it then it becomes trivial.
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    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

    The Narrow Bridge
    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



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    Age of Warriors

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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Closed Mind says "You cannot take or use this feat if you have the ability to use powers (if you have a power point reserve or psi-like abilities)." So I'd be explicit that taking levels in this class does not make you lose Closed Mind. Otherwise you are going to get weird issues. I'd also consider letting Psionic Hole qualify instead of Closed Mind, especially given the fluff of Psionic Hole.

    I'm concerned about the class. While the number of skill points required is very high, the total number of ranks you need in any given skill is not. Thus, I can qualify for this class at 5th level with something like Factotum 3/Monk 2 (presumably taking the Monk levels before the Factotum levels). That means that I get 9th level powers at 15th level. That's a problem. Even if you need to use some tricks to bump manifester level to do it that's going to be an issue. (Practiced Manifester and Overchannel would be enough and the damage would be easy to handle. Even with con burn there's a lot of cheese I can do with 9th level powers.

    Edit: And with con drain there are a lot of ways of handling it. Restoration would be the obvious one as would a 1 level dip into Binder to bind Naberius. Monk 2/Binder 1/Factotum 2 has no trouble qualifying either.
    For the bolded part: 9th level powers at 15th level are not, actually, a very big deal. People regularly hit 9th level powers by 13th for the Test of Spite, for instance.

    I'd call the need to go Monk 2/Factotum 3 to enter the class in a timely fashion a fair tradeoff, personally. The character builder program I typically use still counts Autohypnosis and Psicraft as cross-class for a Factotum, so either that's in error or you're using a 3rd feat besides two less than ideal choices to get in 'on time'; that seems another balancing factor.

    Yes, there are ways to 'game the system' with the class; I'm not convinced that makes it necessarily a problem. I'm especially dubious of that in light of the comparative class for Psywarp, the Ur-Priest. If I've built this at roughly the same level as the latter, I've aimed about right. If it's grossly over or under that mark, that, to me, is the issue.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    The problem is that con drain is a severe problem so that if you don't have a way to deal with it it makes this very not fun. But if you do have a way of dealing with it then it becomes trivial.
    I would find this sentiment to be true of the vast majority of effects in D&D. They're either a major nuisance if you cannot handle them - like Flying opponents at low levels - or trivial.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post

    I'd call the need to go Monk 2/Factotum 3 to enter the class in a timely fashion a fair tradeoff, personally.
    That's just the most obvious build. And Factotum 3 is (as I understand it, never having played one) quite yummy.


    The character builder program I typically use still counts Autohypnosis and Psicraft as cross-class for a Factotum, so either that's in error or you're using a 3rd feat besides two less than ideal choices to get in 'on time'; that seems another balancing factor.
    That's an error. Factotum has all skills as class skills. Period.


    Yes, there are ways to 'game the system' with the class; I'm not convinced that makes it necessarily a problem. I'm especially dubious of that in light of the comparative class for Psywarp, the Ur-Priest. If I've built this at roughly the same level as the latter, I've aimed about right. If it's grossly over or under that mark, that, to me, is the issue.
    Ok. There are two issues with that: First, the Ur-Priest is a very high-powered class (to the point where some campaigns ban it outright). Second, there's no easy to qualify for the Ur-Priest at 5th level. They require a lot more outright cheese.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    I would find this sentiment to be true of the vast majority of effects in D&D. They're either a major nuisance if you cannot handle them - like Flying opponents at low levels - or trivial.
    That's not really the case. For example, con burn doesn't work that way if it is as the right level. There are a lot of resources where the how bad is this graph isn'tbimodal. Con drain just isn't one of them.

    Edit: Also, what people can do in Test of Spite is not a good argument. The fact that there are insane builds using n books for large n that can get 9th level powers at 9th level is not an argument that a homebrew class should be made so that one can easily get that sort of power at a low level easily (especially when it is so easy that a non-optimizer like myself can see how to do it).
    Last edited by JoshuaZ; 2010-03-16 at 08:03 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    Binding Naberius to qualify with Monk/Binder/Factotum (two of the more obscure sources for base classes) seems quite a bit cheesier than most of the entrances to Ur-Priest that I've seen actually considered for play. Apparently we're working on a very different understanding of what is or isn't cheesy in a campaign.

    Factotum 3 denies Opportunistic Piety and Cunning Strike, not to mention the later goodies of the class, so two Monk levels are a definite 'price' there. Binding Naberius requires either another feat or 2 additional skills for a class you've already said - and I've admitted - is very spread out in skill requirements, for the ability to regain lost CON by the hour, which can be an eternity in a dungeon crawl. For a CHA-focused class, we're now looking at a minimum 3 decent stats, and not everyone uses point-buy.

    EDIT:
    Ok. There are two issues with that: First, the Ur-Priest is a very high-powered class (to the point where some campaigns ban it outright).
    Given that the Psywarp is compared in the very thread title to the Ur-Priest, it seems very odd to complain about comparisons to it on the basis of its power level. I would think that any campaign that disallowed Ur-Priest would disallow an obvious analog to the class as well. Choose horses for courses. If Ur-Priest is typically disallowed at your - speaking generally - table, this PrC will almost certainly read as too strong.
    Last edited by Amphetryon; 2010-03-16 at 08:17 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Binding Naberius to qualify with Monk/Binder/Factotum (two of the more obscure sources for base classes) seems quite a bit cheesier than most of the entrances to Ur-Priest that I've seen actually considered for play. Apparently we're working on a very different understanding of what is or isn't cheesy in a campaign.
    Really? I'm curious then what methods of early entry you would use for Ur-Priest that get an early enough entry to get 9th level spells at 15th level.


    Factotum 3 denies Opportunistic Piety and Cunning Strike, not to mention the later goodies of the class, so two Monk levels are a definite 'price' there.
    The point isn't that you are an amazing Factotum, the point is you get a lot of nice stuff. (And for that matter I think Factotum 4/Monk 1 would work also, there are a lot of ways to do this).

    Binding Naberius requires either another feat or 2 additional skills for a class you've already said - and I've admitted - is very spread out in skill requirements, for the ability to regain lost CON by the hour, which can be an eternity in a dungeon crawl. For a CHA-focused class, we're now looking at a minimum 3 decent stats, and not everyone uses point-buy.
    *Shrug* I'm not an optimizer so there are probably better ways of doing this. The point is that it isn't hard for even a non-opmtimizer to break. And that's just if you need to be self-sufficient and don't have a friendly cleric to cast restoration for you.

    If you changed this to con burn instead of con drain it would probably be ok.

    Edit:
    Given that the Psywarp is compared in the very thread title to the Ur-Priest, it seems very odd to complain about comparisons to it on the basis of its power level. I would think that any campaign that disallowed Ur-Priest would disallow an obvious analog to the class as well. Choose horses for courses. If Ur-Priest is typically disallowed at your - speaking generally - table, this PrC will almost certainly read as too strong.
    Missing the point. The problem isn't that this is analogous to the Ur-Priest. The problem is that very easy early entry means that this is more powerful than the Ur-Priest.
    Last edited by JoshuaZ; 2010-03-16 at 08:21 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    beguiler2/duskblade3/ur-priest10/abjurantchampion5

    bard 4/crusader 1/ur-priest 2/XXX - use savage bard if you prefer.

    Human Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-(Bard/Ur-Priest)-3/Sublime Chord-1/Mystic Theurge-4-8 (Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord)/Abjurant Champion-4 (Sublime Chord), for instance.



    Savage Bard, Duskblade, and Beguiler/Monk can all get into Ur-Priest at level 6 - same level as specific Psywarp builds - with arguably less obscure source material, and without dipping another class.
    Last edited by Amphetryon; 2010-03-16 at 09:48 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    Ok. I agree that those are about as simple (although they seem about the same complexity). So given that, this may be ok. I still think the burn instead of drain makes more sense.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    I need to see this build that gets 9th level spells at level 13 or 9, because I don't see it happening.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante & Vergil View Post
    I need to see this build that gets 9th level spells at level 13 or 9, because I don't see it happening.
    9's at level 9 works based on the way Phaerimm gain levels. It's a moronic and absurdly poorly worded monster.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    What book is it out of?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante & Vergil View Post
    What book is it out of?
    Lost Empires of Faerun

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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    1) I find it interesting, and slightly amusing, that half the folks want to drop Drain because it isn't enough of a penalty, while the other half want to drop Drain because it's too harsh. I wonder if that means it's on the right track or categorically awful, for both reasons.
    Actually, neither of those is the reason I don't like it. While it is the kind of penalty that goes from too harsh to trivial with a single item or spell, I have two different objections:

    1) Conceptually, it punishes the class for using its class features. Something like the hellfire warlock is one thing--you have eldritch blast, this makes it better if you take a point of Con, your choice if you want to use it. In this case, however, a 10th-level psywarp cannot use any powers above 5th level at all without taking Con drain, and it even has to wait a few levels after getting every level of powers except 1st to use them without something like Overchannel. That's like charging a wizard Con to cast his higher level spells, or charging a fighter Con to use his later feats; it may work on a balance level, but it's really counterintuitive.

    2) Large amounts of ability drain are annoying. If we assume that the psywarp isn't going to risk taking 7 Con drain until he can easily get rid of it (a likely scenario), then every time he wants to use a higher-level power he has to adjust his Fort save, HP, etc. to account for the new Con, then mark of charges in his wand of restoration and raise them again, then mark them down for the next power, and so on. If you absolutely have to have a penalty, choose something that's more fire-and-forget like HP damage to make it easier on the player.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    2) Large amounts of ability drain are annoying. If we assume that the psywarp isn't going to risk taking 7 Con drain until he can easily get rid of it (a likely scenario), then every time he wants to use a higher-level power he has to adjust his Fort save, HP, etc. to account for the new Con, then mark of charges in his wand of restoration and raise them again, then mark them down for the next power, and so on.
    This is, to me, the most compelling argument to date.

    I really, strongly feel the payment made should have more of an immediate impact than HP, however, since HP are binary at a fundamental level in D&D. By that I mean a Psywarp at 1 HP is as able to function as a Psywarp with 100 HP. (Side note: I wrote and managed not to copy HD into the OP. Oops.)

    Suggestions for a less bookkeeping-intensive penalty?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    I really, strongly feel the payment made should have more of an immediate impact than HP, however, since HP are binary at a fundamental level in D&D. By that I mean a Psywarp at 1 HP is as able to function as a Psywarp with 100 HP. (Side note: I wrote and managed not to copy HD into the OP. Oops.)
    Doesn't have to be HP, I was just giving that as an example of a more-easily-tracked penalty.

    One idea for something that isn't really a penalty per se is to let the psywarp expend his psionic focus when manifesting a power to set his base ML to twice his level instead of his level. It doesn't require you to change stats, it's a uniquely psionic solution to the issue, it mitigates use of metapsionics to help tone it down a bit, and making it set base ML to 2*level rather than just doubling it prevents ML-increase abuse.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    With Dice comments aside on Staggering Madness, if this is suppost to be an analog of the Ur-Priest, why doesn't it have a catch up method like it, like it's base manifester level is equal to class level + ½ other levels?(The Ur-Priest has something similar.) It still falls behind without Practiced Manifester, but you may be able to make equal to 2*class level instead without resorting to class features. Just an oppinion.
    Last edited by Dante & Vergil; 2010-03-17 at 05:40 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    Made a change to how Staggering Madness works due to overwhelming calls to do so.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    Have you considered instead of having this sort of a psion base, having this more like an Ardent base as you're calling it a Psionic Ur-Priest, and Ardent is more or less a psionic cleric.

    Just a thought.

    Otherwise, interesting and fun stuff.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Psywarp (Psionic Ur-Priest){PEACH}

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Made a change to how Staggering Madness works due to overwhelming calls to do so.
    Much better.
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