What's so emphatically broken about Incantrix?

[Corey]

I have a gestalt character or two taking incantrix, mainly for the purpose of Persisting buffs, some of which are pretty awesome (Choose Destiny, Ruin Delver's Fortune, etc.) One DM has called this "Powerful but legit." And following that route sure entails a whole lot of defense against being Dispelled.

I saw a reference in another thread to 1000+ damage Orbs. This isn't my plan, but I'm still curious about how those work. I assume it takes a lot of metamagic feats, plus Spellwarp Sniper or whatever the PrC is called. Back of the envelope, Empowered/Maximized/Twinned feel closer to 500 than to 1000.

Are there any other major flavors for Incantrix cheese?

[FishAreWet]

Metamagic Effect working on things that aren't meant to be metamagiced.

[Mongoose87]

You mean like "Locate City"?

[FishAreWet]

I mean like anything.

[Boci]

1. Normally when you enter 10/10 casting PrC, you loose 2-4 feats. 1 or 2 useless one for preqs and 2 for not taking 10 levels of wizard. With the incantrix, you gain more feats than you loose.

2. The ability to steal other casters spells without an opposed roll and free/cheaper metamagic has so, so many aplications.

[BobVosh]

2 feats + incantrix= 3 level lower metamagics on certain spells. Cheaper metamagics demolish games like they were jengas near your much younger brother.

[Corey]

Cheaper metamagics demolish games like they were jengas near your much younger brother.

Which ones and how?

[Aharon]

Easy Metamagic from some Dragon, and Practical Metamagic (spontaneous Caster only) from Races of the Dragon.

[Killer Angel]

One DM has called this "Powerful but legit."

Of course it's legit. It's RAW.
This don't make Incantatrix less broken.

Which ones and how?

Anyone. Some more, some less, but metamagic reducers break the game even more.
Many spells are heavily unbalanced by themselves; metamagic makes all the spells, more powerful.
But at least, metamagic comes with a cost, so your spell is more powerful but with higher slots. With metamagic reducers you have the power without the cost.

[BobVosh]

As for the spell: choose your favorite orb (force is great as few things are immune). You can stack your metamagic reducers however you want, and one of them says you can reduce them to 0. So still, silent, maximized, repeat, twin, empowered, quicken, and whatever else it uses nowadays will go up by about 2 levels.

[Chrono22]

It has the word "trix" in it. It's just got to be broken and cheesy.

[BobVosh]

It has the word "trix" in it. It's just got to be broken and cheesy.

Shouldn't that be broken and fruity? poor rabbit

[Zeta Kai]

It has the word "trix" in it. It's just got to be broken and cheesy.

No, that just means that it's for kids.

[magic9mushroom]

Incantatrix is broken because it's a full-caster PrC that gives you back all of what you invested, and some on top, and also gives you a few stupidly good class features, like Cooperative Metamagic (basically free DMM:Everything for others), Metamagic Effect (basically free DMM:Everything for anybody), and Improved Metamagic (duplicates an epic feat).

Its one weakness is that you have to lose a school to take it. This is sometimes underestimated, but doesn't come close to what it gives.

[taltamir]

one of the ways to "win" DnD is to abuse metamagic reducers. Incantantrix gives you free metamagic cost reduction. Furthermore, instead of costing you steeply, it is tied to a very powerful class. Incantantrix without the free meta reduction is already a very good PrC due to reasons others mentioned, then you throw in the free meta and it becomes one of the best classes in the game.

actually, if you read through its ability list, each and every one of them is stupid powerful.

[magic9mushroom]

one of the ways to "win" DnD is to abuse metamagic reducers. Incantantrix gives you free metamagic cost reduction. Furthermore, instead of costing you steeply, it is tied to a very powerful class. Incantantrix without the free meta reduction is already a very good PrC due to reasons others mentioned, then you throw in the free meta and it becomes one of the best classes in the game.

actually, if you read through its ability list, each and every one of them is stupid powerful.

Well, it's not really "winning D&D". You're doing an awful lot of damage, yes, but there are still ways around it. It's nowhere near the stupid hax of, for example, Beholder Mage.

[taltamir]

Well, it's not really "winning D&D". You're doing an awful lot of damage, yes, but there are still ways around it. It's nowhere near the stupid hax of, for example, Beholder Mage.

if you are doing damage with metamagic you are using it wrong :P
j/k... but still there are many uses of metamagic that are not DD which fare better. spells that damage attribute scores, spells that drain levels... heck, just plain old SoD with methods of multiplying them (twin spell, split ray, chain, etc)..
and lets not forget buffs, buffs are huge place to abuse metamagic.
example: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81794

My group of characters is finally ready to go. It will still take some time to pretty them up for official viewing, but the work of actually building them is done.

Each team member is Shapechanged into a Solar, and has used the Solar's Change Shape ability to return to his or her normal size and appearance.

One character is ready for the public in the spoiler block below. I'll put one more character per post after this when they're ready. The full list of buffs, complete with sources and bonuses, etc. will go in a final post.

Vesran Rynash, the Master of Nine

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Vesran Rynash
Race: Human (Outsider (Angel, Good, Fire))
Deity: Heironeous
Alignment: Lawful Good
Class: Crusader 13/Master of Nine 5
Init: +6 +22
Senses: Blind-Fight
Senses: Detect Magic, Detect Evil, Detect Good, Detect Chaos, Detect Law, Read Magic, Greater Arcane Sight, Darkvision 300', double-strength Low light vision, Detect Scrying, Detect Secret Doors, Detect Undead, See Invisibility, True Seeing, Analyze Portal, Blindsight 60', Blindsense 150', ignore natural and magical darkness, scent, warning of danger, telepathy within party (even across planes), know shortest direction to place of "safety", tremorsense 30', ignore snow glare/whiteout, all-around vision, Blessed Sight (like Arcane Sight, but for evil)
Languages: Common all
____________
AC 12 (touch 12, flat-footed 10)
AC 121 (touch 77, flat-footed 114), +1 when flying, can't be flanked
hp 189 333 +383 temp
DR none 15/epic and evil, 10/adamantine
Saves: Fort 14, Ref 7, Will 9, mettle
Saves: Fort 47, Ref 46 (+1 when flying), Will 56, evasion, mettle, roll twice take better
Regeneration 15/epic and evil or [evil]
Fast Healing 5
SR 32
Miss chance from Blink vs attacks and targeted spells, half damage from AoE and falling
50% miss chance vs nonmagical attacks, 20% vs magic (partially incorporeal)
Displacement (50%)
Never flat-footed, warned of imminent danger
20' radius Magic Circle Against Evil and Lesser Globe of Invulerability
10 levels Spell Turning
Loratai notified of position and condition
Breathe water
Contingent Heal
Evil creatures within 10' take -2 on attacks ands aves
Native planar environment (Planar Bubble)
Stalwart Pact
Renewal Pact
Death Pact
1d6+31 sonic melee damage return
4d6 force melee damage return
+12 extra vs bull rush, overrun, trip
Half damage from melee and ranged attacks
Reflex DC 15 for half damage from magic weapons, immune to nonmagic weapons
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Can't be flanked

Immunities:
Petrification
Death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, negative energy
Endure Elements
Grapple, paralysis, magical movement impediment
Penalties for underwater fighting
Poison
Sleep
Stunning
Critical hits
Fire, Acid, Electricity, Cold, and Sonic
Fear
Blasphemy, Dictum, Word of Chaos, Word of Balance, Stone to Flesh, Dimensional Lock
Rust attacks
Harmful vapors and gasses, vacuum (Necklace of Adaptation)
Metal
Ranged touch attacks
Fatigue, exhaustion, ability damage, ability drain
Thrown and projectile ranged attacks
Wind
Difficult terrain
Disease
Mind-affecting (does not suppress precast buffs)
Blindness, deafness, drowning
No physiology or respiration
Damage from temperature and pressure of deep water
Dessication damage (first 100 points)
_________________
Speed: 30 land 55 land, 130 fly, 65 swim, 50 burrow, Close range teleport as move action that ends turn, 60' teleport with line of sight as swift action, don't provoke for moving, move through ice, snow, stone, or earth easily
Melee:
+1 Transmuting Swarmstrike Adamantine Falchion
+20/+15/+10/+5 +73/+73/+68/+63/+58
15-20 crit, crits autoconfirm, touch attacks, roll twice take better
Constantly readied against charge
Damage: 2d4+5 2d4+1d6+65 +1d6 sonic, +xd6 vs larger foes
Space/reach: 5'/5'
BAB/grapple: +16/+19 +18/immune
Maneuvers:

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Typical readied:
Wall of Blades
Diamond Defense

Order Forged From Chaos
Shadow Blink
Quicksilver Motion

Flashing Sun
Avalanche of Blades
Time Stands Still
Strike of Righteous Vitality
War Master's Charge

Iron Heart Surge

Stances known:
Leading the Charge
Martial Spirit
Tactics of the Wolf
Immortal Fortitude
Pearl of Black Doubt
Hearing the Air
Stance of Alacrity
Aura of Perfect Order

_____________________
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 14
Str 70, Dex 36, Con 36, Int 16, Wis 38, Cha 28
special qualities
Flaws: Shaky, Inattentive
Feats: Dodge, Blind-Fight, Adaptive Style, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Initiative, Martial Study x3, Extra Granted Maneuver, Martial Stance
Power Attack, Blind-Fight
Skill ranks: Balance 10, Intimidate 21, Jump 21, Martial Lore 21, Tumble 21
Synergies: +2 tumble, +2 balance, +2 jump
Skills: Appraise 6, Balance 28, Bluff 12, Climb 37, Concentration 16, Craft 6, Decipher Script 6, Diplomacy 12, Disable Device 6, Disguise 12, Escape Artist 21, Forgery 6, Gather Information 12, Handle Animal 13, Heal 17, Hide 35, Intimidate 33, Jump 98, Martial Lore 27, Knowledge (all) 16, Listen 37, Move Silently 17, Open Lock 16, Perform 20, Profession 17, Ride 16, Search 11, Sense Motive 17, Sleight of Hand 16, Spellcraft 6, Spot 49, Survival 29, Swim 40, Tumble 39, Use Magic Device 12, Use Rope 16
____________
Equipment
Novice Ring of the Diamond Mind
Scholar Ring of the Diamond Mind
Novice Desert Wind Cloak
Monk's Belt
Gauntlets of Rust, Ghost Fighting (MIC), and Infinite Blades (MIC)
Heward's Handy Haversack
Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone
Necklace of Adaptation
Steadfast Boots
Spool of Endless Rope
2 luck blades
Universal Solvent x4
Immovable Rod x2
Mundane gear pack
________
Furious Counterstrike
Steely Resolve 20
Indomitable Soul
Zealous Surge
Smite 1/day
Die Hard
Mettle
Dual Stance 10 rounds/day
Perfect Form
Counter Stance
Mastery of Nine (+6)
10d6 electricity attack at 100' range at will
Earth Lock, Earthquake, Excavate, Flesh to Stone, Meld into Stone, Move Earth, Reverse Gravity, Soften Earth and Stone, Statue, Stone Shape, Stone Tell, Stone to Flesh, Transmute Mud to Rock, Transmute Rock to Mud, Tunnel Swallow, Wall of Stone, and Xorn Movement at will
Feather Fall as immediate (discharges Heart of Air)
Stoneskin as swift for 1 round/level (discharges Heart of Earth)
Fire Shield as swift for 1 round/level (discharges Heart of Fire)
Freedom of Movement as swift for 1 round/level (discharges Heart of Water)
Transmute rock to mud = no save slow for 2d6 rounds
Transmute mud to rock = full heal
Stone to Flesh = dispel Stone Body (but Spell Immunity blocks it)
Whenever a spell is cast within 20', heal 1 hp per level of the spell
10d6 fire, electricity, cold, or acid attack at 60' range at will
_____________
Vesran Rynash was, like so many heroes, born a simple peasant in an out of the way village. He was never content with the idea of being a farmer all his life, and enlisted in the military at an early age. Guard duty quickly palled, however, and he sought out alternatives. Rumors of fantastical missions, slaying monsters and saving innocents, reached him about the activities of the church of Heironeous, and he eagerly applied to join that order.

Once accepted into the lower levels of the most militant branch of Heironeous' service, Vesran quickly distinguished himself as an exceptional combatant and a highly principled man. He showed little flexibility, however, and no understanding of the finer points of large group tactics needed for high command. As his martial prowess continued to develop and his mental faculties remained stagnant, his superiors eventually decided to permanently put him exactly where he wanted to be - on small group missions with clear cut objectives and little overall authority.

Vesran racked up an impressive list of slain enemies over the years, and had begun to amass a considerable reputation when he fell captive to a wizard he had been sent to kill. The wizard had been consorting with devils and engaging in all sorts of unpleasantness, including human sacrifice, and Vesran was supposed to take his little team and put a stop to it. Unfortunately for Vesran's teammates, the wizard had anticipated just such an expedition and laid a clever trap for them all. The entire team was captured, and the wizard was delighted to be able to offer such powerful sacrifices to the devils he was dealing with.

The wizard saved Vesran for last, torturing him by forcing him to watch the ceremonial deaths of his friends. Vesran himself would have perished as well if not for the intervention of a Mystran cleric named Loratai Estran. Loratai happened to wander near enough in her constant travels to hear about this wizard and was determined that such a perversion of magic should not be allowed to continue. She burst into the wizard's ritual chamber, practically glowing with fury and the might of her own magic, tore his protections and the chamber's magic to shreds, and killed the wizard himself in a brief and intense battle.

Vesran vowed to repay Loratai for her spectacular rescue, and has been travelling with her ever since. He does not understand what she calls "shades of gray", but is willing to defer to her judgment in matters outside his own expertise in monster killing.

When the two of them heard of the Grinder and the prize waiting inside, Vesran was quite eager to go. It struck him as the perfect adventure to cap a lifetime, and he dreams of the good he might be able to accomplish with the power of a god.

[KellKheraptis]

All those metamagic reducers though truly shine on a single spell, which just so happens to be the only one a Shadowcraft Mage needs. Still, for all it's awesome, a Metaphysical Spellshaper actually grants two even more broken abilities without the school cost, while still giving the metamagic reduction, all over 3 levels. And as said, Shadowcraft Mage turns everything up to 11. Seeing an unholy trinity here? I am :)

[Eldariel]

All those metamagic reducers though truly shine on a single spell, which just so happens to be the only one a Shadowcraft Mage needs. Still, for all it's awesome, a Metaphysical Spellshaper actually grants two even more broken abilities without the school cost, while still giving the metamagic reduction, all over 3 levels. And as said, Shadowcraft Mage turns everything up to 11. Seeing an unholy trinity here? I am :)

And Tainted Scholar gives you more powerful crap than all that combined in two levels. Who the hell thought up that class again? It's as bad as Beholder Mage or Illithid Savant!

[magic9mushroom]

And Tainted Scholar gives you more powerful crap than all that combined in two levels. Who the hell thought up that class again? It's as bad as Beholder Mage or Illithid Savant!

Two levels? It only takes one.

But yeah, Tainted Scholar, Metaphysical Spellshaper and Shadowcraft Mage are all more broken than Incantatrix. Mostly because Metaphysical Spellshaper is "Incantatrix in 3 levels", Shadowcraft Mage is "Look at me having unparalleled versatility while getting higher-level spells faster" and Tainted Scholar is "My save DCs and spells per day are arbitrarily high". Incantatrix is the only one of them you can see and not immediately WTF.

On a side note, the spelling of Incantatrix I used above and immediately prior is the correct one.

[Eldariel]

Two levels? It only takes one..

Second level gives you Blooded Metamagic! I mean, just Tainted Spellcasting and Blood Component isn't enough, you want free metamagic on all your spells too. Besides, then it's more comparable to Metaphysical Spellshaper and Incantatrix. Shadowcraft Mage it can beat by the virtue of, instead of being able to spontaneously cast anything, being able to prepare enough spells to actually have every spell ever prepared.

[taltamir]

Two levels? It only takes one.

But yeah, Tainted Scholar, Metaphysical Spellshaper and Shadowcraft Mage are all more broken than Incantatrix. Mostly because Metaphysical Spellshaper is "Incantatrix in 3 levels", Shadowcraft Mage is "Look at me having unparalleled versatility while getting higher-level spells faster" and Tainted Scholar is "My save DCs and spells per day are arbitrarily high". Incantatrix is the only one of them you can see and not immediately WTF.

On a side note, the spelling of Incantatrix I used above and immediately prior is the correct one.

so why not combine all 4? actually, can someone please provide a build that combines all 4 for maximum cheese?

[Eldariel]

so why not combine all 4? actually, can someone please provide a build that combines all 4 for maximum cheese?

Just search for our dear m9's build involving Beholder Mage, Tainted Scholar and Ur-Priest. The only thing it lacks is full Dweomerkeeper Progression to truly contain the ways to break things (without leeching class features; Illithid Savant, Manipulate Form and company make it a bit too easy).

[Tinydwarfman]

The ability to spellcraft checks to persist anything for free. Or anything else for that matter. The check is high, but it's so easy to pump your skills.

[jiriku]

For orb abuse, a sorcerer/incantatrix gets the best mileage, being able to use greater arcane fusion. With sufficient metamagic compression, you can throw a twinned GAF containing two twinned empowered maximized orbs out of an 8th level slot. That'll deal about a thousand damage. Then quicken and do it again. Then activate your belt of battle and do it again. Then cast celerity and do it again. I can't think of anything in any monster manual that could survive that without having some way to not be there when the damage hits.

[Tyndmyr]

For orb abuse, a sorcerer/incantatrix gets the best mileage, being able to use greater arcane fusion. With sufficient metamagic compression, you can throw a twinned GAF containing two twinned empowered maximized orbs out of an 8th level slot. That'll deal about a thousand damage. Then quicken and do it again. Then activate your belt of battle and do it again. Then cast celerity and do it again. I can't think of anything in any monster manual that could survive that without having some way to not be there when the damage hits.

This isn't actually, yknow, legal. At least, it isn't without a way of getting a collection of swift actions in one turn AND ruling that you can use metamagic on the spells produced by AF/GAF(which allows vastly more broken things that don't require incantatrix anyway).

Besides, people overestimate orbs. An empowered maximized orb deals 7.25 dmg * CL. So, at CL 20, each orb deals 145 damage. Great, but nowhere close to a thousand, even with multiples.

Besides, a quickened twined GAF is what, level 16? 14 after incantatrix adjustment? This makes your spellcraft DC to pull this off....66?

Yes, you can specialize in orbs enough to make them quite nasty, but specialization comes at an opportunity cost.

[Sinfire Titan]

Shouldn't that be broken and fruity? poor rabbit

And blue, for us M:tG players.

[Cyclocone]

For orb abuse, a sorcerer/incantatrix gets the best mileage, being able to use greater arcane fusion. With sufficient metamagic compression, you can throw a twinned GAF containing two twinned empowered maximized orbs out of an 8th level slot. That'll deal about a thousand damage. Then quicken and do it again. Then activate your belt of battle and do it again. Then cast celerity and do it again. I can't think of anything in any monster manual that could survive that without having some way to not be there when the damage hits.

Well, if you allow GAF to replicate metamagic'ed spells, you could just use Sanctum AF and Magic Missile for infinite damage.

[sonofzeal]

I remember hearing that there are two versions of Incantatrix, one 3.0 and one 3.5, and that they're significantly different in abuseability. Which one is which, and where are both found?

[arguskos]

I remember hearing that there are two versions of Incantatrix, one 3.0 and one 3.5, and that they're significantly different in abuseability. Which one is which, and where are both found?

3.0 is Magic of Faerun. "3.5" is Player's Guide to Faerun (technically, I think PGtF is 3.0, but it's the final update of Incantrix, so it works here).

I believe the consensus is that the PGtF one is the cracked out one, and the 3.0 is the less bad (still abusable as hell). Note: I get these mixed up A LOT, so I might be backwards.