[3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken

[PhoenixRivers]

The problem I have with it is when the caster uses effects that block line of sight, blinding whoever is caught up in them while everyone outside can still freely attack creatures within.

I know. So you replace the part that dictates what a creature sees if they can see invisibility with "a creature with the ability to see invisibility ignores the effects of this feat".

Now, if it's an effect that true seeing won't bypass, it still won't. If it's an effect that true seeing will bypass, it will.

[Myou]

I know. So you replace the part that dictates what a creature sees if they can see invisibility with "a creature with the ability to see invisibility ignores the effects of this feat".

Now, if it's an effect that true seeing won't bypass, it still won't. If it's an effect that true seeing will bypass, it will.

I'm sorry, I don't follow you there.

[Tar Palantir]

The problem I have with it is when the caster uses effects that block line of sight, blinding whoever is caught up in them while everyone outside can still freely attack creatures within.

This does make a certain amount of sense in character, though. If you use a UV flash grenade, it will only blind things that can see UV light, etc.

[Myou]

This does make a certain amount of sense in character, though. If you use a UV flash grenade, it will only blind things that can see UV light, etc.

Except that you can't make yourself only visible on the UV spectrum, surrounded by defenses only beatable with UV vision, then cast a spell that blinds anyone who can see in UV with no save.

[PhoenixRivers]

I'm sorry, I don't follow you there.

There are some spell effects that true seeing cannot bypass. For example:

Obscuring Mist. True Seeing can see 5 feet into the cloud, and then nothing.

There are some effects that True Seeing can bypass. For example:

Silent Image is bypassed by True Seeing.

Under the existing text for Invisible Spell, True Seeing would not bypass either of these. In each case, True Seeing would cause you to see the normal effect of the spell. In the first case, you'd see the mist, and in the second, you'd see the illusion.

Under your proposed text, suddenly True Seeing would be able to bypass the first, although it can't normally do that.

Under my proposed text, True Seeing can bypass the effects that it normally would, and cannot bypass the things it normally cannot. In other words, True seeing trumps invisible spell, but would not trump a spell that was modified by invisible spell unless True Seeing was already capable of trumping that spell.

[Myou]

There are some spell effects that true seeing cannot bypass. For example:

Obscuring Mist. True Seeing can see 5 feet into the cloud, and then nothing.

There are some effects that True Seeing can bypass. For example:

Silent Image is bypassed by True Seeing.

Under the existing text for Invisible Spell, True Seeing would not bypass either of these. In each case, True Seeing would cause you to see the normal effect of the spell. In the first case, you'd see the mist, and in the second, you'd see the illusion.

Under your proposed text, suddenly True Seeing would be able to bypass the first, although it can't normally do that.

Under my proposed text, True Seeing can bypass the effects that it normally would, and cannot bypass the things it normally cannot. In other words, True seeing trumps invisible spell, but would not trump a spell that was modified by invisible spell unless True Seeing was already capable of trumping that spell.

Ahhh, I see.
But an invisible Obscuring Mist can be seen through by anyone not using True Seeing. I just don't want to create a situation where you can stop someone using the spell by blinding them (by leaving everyone lese able to see).

[PhoenixRivers]

Ahhh, I see.
But an invisible Obscuring Mist can be seen through by anyone not using True Seeing. I just don't want to create a situation where you can stop someone using the spell by blinding them (by leaving everyone lese able to see).

Well, that would create an additional tactical option, wouldn't it?

Don't worry, if we're looking at out-of-core sources (which we are), there's still blindsight, and greater blindsight, touchsight, and a half dozen special vision modes that don't give two shakes about sight.

As is, the common tactic is to sit outside of the spell's range (120 feet), then charge in.

[Jack_Simth]

Ahhh, I see.
But an invisible Obscuring Mist can be seen through by anyone not using True Seeing.

Which is ultimately the point with the base Invisible Spell feat. If I cast Superior Invisibility on myself, and an Invisible Obscuring Mist, you can't see me - True Seeing or no. But I can see you... until you cast Invisibility or similar yourself, anyway.

[Math_Mage]

I vote PhoenixRivers' fix, a more explicit statement about what is made invisible for how long ('visual manifestation' accompanied by an analogy about invisible Fireball leaving visible fire doesn't cut it for me), and probably a +1 modifier (comparable with Sculpt Spell, which is useful but not obviously or universally powerful) to balance this spell.

Of course, as a player, I just hope the DM allows it at +0, and then try to avoid having a banhammer slapped on it by limiting myself to sane abuse.