OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread

[Solara]

The second would have put the goblin into a veritable state of paniced terror before he died, which is the state he ended up in anyway, making it evil and/or racist.

"Good news, Mr. Prisoner, the governor just called and you've been pardoned! This is wonderful, I knew you were innocent all along, no matter what the DNA said! Come along with me now and we'll do the paperwork for your release, oh my goodness just imagine how happy you'll be going home, all your family is wait--quick jab the needle in now!"

...hmm, I dunno, I have a hard time believing that's kinder than the alternative. Maybe it's a personal thing but I hate being lied to above all else.

[Elan's Modron]

And how do you deal with the pretty serious issue that this spy has seen new high level characters in the resistance? Letting him live is an action which most likely ends with Xykon learning this, which in turn results in him destroying the resistance.

Unless they're really dumb, the gobbos will figure out some pretty high-level mo-fos were involved when they realize that an entire guarded prison was emptied surgically and silently while an entire city of gobbos were enjoying hydra BBQ a few blocks away...

[Kumo]

"Good news, Mr. Prisoner, the governor just called and you've been pardoned! This is wonderful, I knew you were innocent all along, no matter what the DNA said! Come along with me now and we'll do the paperwork for your release, oh my goodness just imagine how happy you'll be going home, all your family is wait--quick jab the needle in now!"

...hmm, I dunno, I have a hard time believing that's kinder than the alternative. Maybe it's a personal thing but I hate being lied to above all else.

Are you SERIOUSLY putting those two situations on par with each other?

[Math_Mage]

Good acts don't excuse evil ones. That's like James Bond saying since he stopped the villain of the week's evil master plan to blow up London it's okay for him to rape little girls.

Very different circumstances, very different ethical impacts. The generalized principle does not equate the two specific actions. A better analogy would be if Bond were breaking into the bad guy's base, killing mooks he met along the way, then found a mook that was tied up, that claimed he was willing to switch sides--and shot him too.

Suddenly, that just got a lot more morally ambiguous.

[Nerocite]

Good acts don't excuse evil ones. That's like James Bond saying since he stopped the villain of the week's evil master plan to blow up London it's okay for him to rape little girls.

Except he's using the evil acts for good.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[Worira]

A question to those defending the elf commander: Do you actually think Rich intended the commanders actions to be viewed as positive? Or do you simply disagree with him as to whether they are?

The question stands.

[Math_Mage]

Unless they're really dumb, the gobbos will figure out some pretty high-level mo-fos were involved when they realize that an entire guarded prison was emptied surgically and silently while an entire city of gobbos were enjoying hydra BBQ a few blocks away...

They will figure out that *somebody* big is involved. What does that get them? Nothing, except lowered morale and heightened wariness.

With the goblin's information, they would figure out who is after them and how they accomplished their objective. This gives them a target, removes the mystery, and focuses their attention on the specific threat.

The difference between these two situations is significant.

[Darklord Bright]

Very different circumstances, very different ethical impacts. The generalized principle does not equate the two specific actions. A better analogy would be if Bond were breaking into the bad guy's base, killing mooks he met along the way, then found a mook that was tied up, that claimed he was willing to switch sides--and shot him too.

Suddenly, that just got a lot more morally ambiguous.

I was going to say almost exactly this.

I don't believe that one act would suddenly make his alignment shift to evil, and yet there are people who would disagree with me.

[comicshorse]

Posted by Math Mage

They will figure out that *somebody* big is involved. What does that get them? Nothing, except lowered morale and heightened wariness.

For the entire ten seconds it takes them to get a Cleric to cast Speak with Dead

At which point the goblins information becomes useless and his death rather pointless

[Stomp]

Elves obviously aren't sucked into the alignment part. They are no-nonsense, efficient pragmatists. The commander knew what side he's on, knew what his job was and did just that.

[Math_Mage]

The question stands.

Except that you are making a false assumption in your question--that those who are 'defending' the elf commander think positively of his actions. For example, I have repeatedly stated that I found this specific action to be well on the Evil side of Neutral. I am 'defending' the elf in the sense that I disagree with those who think him unambiguously Evil from this single action.

[druid91]

Technically no.
How ever amusing it was.


It was an evil act regardless how ever I'm sure many CG players would gladly disagree.

Let's play some role reverse and pretend that goblin was a female elf and the elves Orcs.

Notice how you now completely view that as evil.

Not quite as awesome but still not evil in my eyes.

nothing if he goes about it in the same way. if he gave the guy the same speech and stabbed him it'd be just as wrong as it is now. if he'd simply killed him and said "I'm sorry but we can't take any chances" or something along those lines the act would still be questionable but not blatantly sadistic and evil.

Personally it would infuriate me to be killed like that. I would rather be thrown off a tower with a joke, then just downright told "yeah we can't take any chances so sorry but you gotta die." I find the sorry But we can't take any chances track more despicable than the joke, would that apology Be consoling to me as I hit the ground and go splat, or alternatively bleed to death when my throat is cut? No.It may be a horrible thing to joke about death but its a lot better than thinking you can apologize for killing someone.

[Drend]

Killing in and of itself is not an evil act. Paladins kill all the time. They don't get alignment punched every time they do. You also have to take into account the racial hatred between goblinoids and elves. Killing a goblin is ALWAYS in defense of the elven race, thusly a good act. A lawful character would have just had his subordinates execute him, or cut down the poor schmuck himself where he stands, whereas I fully expect a chaotic character to have done something very close to what the elf did. I think the elf is CG, at no risk to his alignment in eliminating the hobgoblin the way he did.

[Solara]

The question stands.

Seeing how "The only good [blank] is a dead [blank] is basically shorthand for 'I am a racist bigot' I'm thinking the answer is no.

And I believe the whole scene being presented this way was completely intentional on Rich's part...you notice the death of the closest thing to another 'helpless' hobgoblin, the dancing knights guy, happened off screen. Like I've said before, he knows his audience, and I'm sure he's perfectly aware of how even one action from a character we otherwise know nothing about will get the bulk of the readers projecting all kinds of things onto him. Someone earlier mentioned the commander was 'another Girard' with the way he's polarizing the forum based on such a small amount of screentime, and I couldn't agree more. Say what you want about moral justification, but as far as character introductions go, this one had some serious style.

[Worira]

Except that you are making a false assumption in your question--that those who are 'defending' the elf commander think positively of his actions. For example, I have repeatedly stated that I found this specific action to be well on the Evil side of Neutral. I am 'defending' the elf in the sense that I disagree with those who think him unambiguously Evil from this single action.

All right, replace "those who are defending the elf commander" with "those who believe the elf commander's act was non-evil".

[Vemynal]

Let me phrase the moral argument like so:

Think world war 2- You've discovered a Nazi soldier who is willing to sell out his comrades for his life, but run the risk of him squealing on you if you let him go. You could kill him, keep him prisoner and accept his info or you could let him go and accept his info...

...and none of that factors in because 'he's a nazi soldier, and you hate that guy'. Thus you kill him because you simply don't like him, he's the enemy. Any amount of mental cruelty or not in the death is simply fulfilling yourself out of some personal vendetta. Yes this might be evil but again, you don't care cuz 'he's the bad guy'

the goblin's are their enemy and in the case of the Azurites at least:

I agree with the eye-patch chick

[Dacia Brabant]

300+ replies in roughly 4 hours, I wonder if that's a record. Nah, probably not compared to the Miko days.

But yeah, seriously folks, evil act all the way. Killing unarmed, defenseless people who are completely at your mercy always is. They're still doing largely a good thing by freeing the Azurites and killing their captors, but Team Good still has to live up to its own standards.

(Hint: they're not actually Team Good after all, but Team Azurelves vs. Team Gobbotopia. If you want good guys, they're on the other side of the world.)

[Silver2195]

Except that you are making a false assumption in your question--that those who are 'defending' the elf commander think positively of his actions. For example, I have repeatedly stated that I found this specific action to be well on the Evil side of Neutral. I am 'defending' the elf in the sense that I disagree with those who think him unambiguously Evil from this single action.

I basically agree with your view of the elf commander, but there have been a few people in this thread who really do think positively of his action.

[Studoku]

Wow, elves are bastards.

Hehe, kaSplat.

[Solara]

I agree with the eye-patch chick

I don't keep up with this place as much as I used to; are people still forming cults around random side characters? Because I would totally join one dedicated to Eyepatch Girl. I'm hoping she gets fleshed out a little more eventually...I'm guessing she's Chaotic-Something based on her comment and the way she's grinning like Belkar a maniac as she's jumping into battle here, but it's all speculation now. Visually she's one of the most interesting of the group though (I don't know what it is about eyepatches...) and I'm sure that's not an accident.

[Math_Mage]

Posted by Math Mage


For the entire ten seconds it takes them to get a Cleric to cast Speak with Dead

At which point the goblins information becomes useless and his death rather pointless

I would hope the elves are more intelligent than to leave a bunch of corpses lying around for the goblins to communicate with using low-level cleric spells. As well as being elementary common sense in terms of the information war, it's also a big morale hit for everything to simply disappear. This may be impractical, however.

[Kumo]

But yeah, seriously folks, evil act all the way. Killing unarmed, defenseless people who are completely at your mercy always is. They're still doing largely a good thing by freeing the Azurites and killing their captors, but Team Good still has to live up to its own standards.

In case you haven't noticed, the arguement isn't over whether killing the hobgoblin was evil, (general consensus is that it was neccesary) but rather the method by which it was done.

[Math_Mage]

I basically agree with your view of the elf commander, but there have been a few people in this thread who really do think positively of his action.

Probably are. A much larger number of people think the action is *logically* justifiable, whatever its moral implications. Meh, it's a large debate for such a small action relative to, well, most of the rest of OotS.

[Worira]

In case you haven't noticed, the arguement isn't over whether killing the hobgoblin was evil, (general consensus is that it was neccesary) but rather the method by which it was done.

Yeah, no, that's not the general consensus.

[comicshorse]

Posted by Math Mage

This may be impractical, however.

Just a bit

[Devas]

But yeah, seriously folks, evil act all the way. Killing unarmed, defenseless people who are completely at your mercy always is.

Lawful Good protagonist killing unarmed, defenseless people who are completely at his mercy.

[Dilettante]

Killing in and of itself is not an evil act. Paladins kill all the time. They don't get alignment punched every time they do. You also have to take into account the racial hatred between goblinoids and elves. Killing a goblin is ALWAYS in defense of the elven race, thusly a good act. A lawful character would have just had his subordinates execute him, or cut down the poor schmuck himself where he stands, whereas I fully expect a chaotic character to have done something very close to what the elf did. I think the elf is CG, at no risk to his alignment in eliminating the hobgoblin the way he did.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that killing is evil (although I may have missed that discussion). Rather, the emphasis is on how the elf killed the prisoner. Killing isn't evil. Taking pleasure in killing? That's hard to say, but I wouldn't usually call it 'good'. Deliberately tricking a victim into false hope before killing them? That's an evil act, pretty unequivocally*.

* Well, I would have said so before reading this thread, but obviously a lot of folks here disagree.

[Selif]

I could see the "Good Dead Goblin" quip coming. I mean "Oh come on! That's such a cliche" (Elan, strip 397, pane 7). But "Elves are awesome." is perfect. All over, a great strip. I like how some action is starting up again after a lull with Redcloak/ Jirix's speech.

-Selif

[Kumo]

Yeah, no, that's not the general consensus.

i said NECCESARY, not GOOD.

[Math_Mage]

Posted by Math Mage


Just a bit

Eh, they could just burn all the bodies. At any rate, one way or another I'm betting Speak with Dead doesn't play a major role in post-operation goblin info gathering, either because Rich decided to ignore it or he decided to have the elves counter it in some way.