OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread

[Harr]

To be fair, there's nothing that leads us to believe Elves are, as a race in general, Good-aligned in the OOTS world. They may simply be True Neutral (in general), in which case acting like this is less surprising.

A True Neutral race alignment would also be in concordance with Hinjo's "allies which are slow to act" statement about them.

[Jokasti]

Didn't need to do it like that.

It needed to happen, they were high up, and this is what required minimal effort. Elves seem to be Vulcans.

Besides, is stabbed in the face any better than push off a tower?

[Kish]

How trustworthy do you think the hobgoblin would be now that Redcloak is gone and he has every reason to get behind the new leader, Jirix?

This seems to hinge on one of two assumptions which I doubt both of. Either 1) Jirix is going to discriminate against goblins, or 2) the hobgoblin prisoner's views on goblins would suddenly change just because the one ordering him to get along with them had orange rather than green skin.

[Platinius]

What the elven commander did was wrong, the real world conventions of La Hay (the conventions of war) clearly forbid the excecution or even mistreating of prisoners of war. Always assuming the worst case (that he is an enemy combattant), it would have been simple to gag and bind him, than bring him away with other (possible) enemy survivers.

[Woodsman]

What confuses me is the fact that the hobgoblin admits he hates the greenskins, yet hobgoblins are the major race in Gobbotopia.

What reason would he have to betray the majority of his people for his hatred of a simple minority?

[SPoD]

the Elf killed that prisoner out of hate.

Not entirely; he killed the prisoner because he didn't want Thanh to bring the prisoner into the tunnels, thus exposing the Resistance to a security breach waiting to happen. The fact that he ALSO hates goblins is just icing on the cake.

[Raging Gene Ray]

I'm really more happy to see the happy Azurites walking out of the prison than anything.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Justified? No way. Commander's a real jerkhole. A funny jerkhole but a jerkhole none the less.

Gotta say I was pretty disgusted by it... those were not the actions of any good-aligned being.

Yeah... I kinda think that's the point. The Commander isn't Good. The act of killing a helpless prisoner is... grey to say the least, but the way he went about it was rather sadistic. Probably Evil, but I'm sure that's debatable

I'm disappointed with OOtS-verse elves. So far there have been hints that they simply aren't up to their own reputation.

What reputation do OOTS-verse Elves have, anyway?

[Gredival]

A "Gotcha!" is, by definition, a humiliation.

What did you think it was?

You make it sound like he stripped the goblin naked and ripped him all his dignity. You say "akin to mental torture" and there's a vast difference in degrees between making a joke of the goblin and torture.

What this elf did ==> Needlessly debasing and humiliating.

Humor was the point, therefore it was not needless.

[SPoD]

What confuses me is the fact that the hobgoblin admits he hates the greenskins, yet hobgoblins are the major race in Gobbotopia.

What reason would he have to betray the majority of his people for his hatred of a simple minority?

The obvious answer to this is, "He would have little reason, which is why he can't be trusted."

[Mando Knight]

It took me a while to realize the title was talking about Elves.

Why? My mind skipped immediately to the 17 types of Pokémon. It might have something to do with the game I just got today. Maybe.

[warmachine]

If I was playing a Good aligned character in that world, I'd calling the Elf commander a murderer and demanding he not approach any hobgoblin prisoners ever again. If divination magic is not available, the risk that he's a spy is unacceptable, so uncuff and release him or stick him back in prison. He can't be blamed for the raid, so he's not doomed. A person should be judged by what he did and intended. That a person is a hobgoblin does not reveal any of that.

[Barlen]

I agree with the poster who pointed out that the commander was probably a ranger with goblinoid as their favored enemy. If I recall correctly their is already a fair amount of enmity between the two races. And yes they get a +2 bonus to sense motive against their favored enemies.

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and getting put into the same prison as the slaves for "beating up a greenskin" seems like a weak excuse. It would be quite odd for the goblins not to try to plant a spy. I suspect Redcloak will probably come back with "it was worth a shot" when he learns of his spy's death.

[Woodsman]

The obvious answer to this is, "He would have little reason, which is why he can't be trusted."

And that's what makes me think the commander may have had more reason to do it than is openly presented.

Of course, the bias and prejudice shown by the commander is quite despicable, but there may have been a good reason for the actual killing.

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

Don't rangers get a sense motive bonus against their favored enemy? Perhaps he KNEW the hobgoblin was lying.

Maybe, but it doesn't really change how killing the poor guy is a bit out of proportion. I was just noting how that elf in particular might have a comical reason for thinking that way.

Alright. Dr.Gunsforhands: not necessarily a proponent of mindless killing.

[Harr]

Humor was the point, therefore it was not needless.

Well, yeah, from a meta point of view, a joke was needed for the strip, and a joke was delivered in the strip.

I think my personal conclusion to this whole thing is yeah, the guy isn't Good by any stretch of the imagination, but then again nobody said that he was or needed to be.

And obviously those two blue-colored humans aren't actually Paladins. So this is probably just what happens when Neutral and Evil collide.

[Kranden]

What the elven commander did was wrong, the real world conventions of La Hay (the conventions of war) clearly forbid the excecution or even mistreating of prisoners of war. Always assuming the worst case (that he is an enemy combattant), it would have been simple to gag and bind him, than bring him away with other (possible) enemy survivers.

Those conventions have little to zero meaning for anybody using guerrilla warfare.

[Woodsman]

I also get the feeling the whole "I hate the greenskins too" may have had something to do with it.

Why would he betray his country, made up of around 90-something percent hobgoblins because he hates a much smaller percentage?

[Gredival]

A person should be judged by what he did and intended. That a person is a hobgoblin does not reveal any of that.

The hobgoblin said he was thrown in prison because he beat an immigrant (presumably greenskin) that just came to the new city.

At the very least we can presume the hobgoblin is racist. Should we trust hobgoblins just because they hate other goblins?

We can still presume the hobgoblin is most likely evil. That is the whole purpose of races having alignments in D&D based worlds. Sure there are exceptions, but I doubt you'd find one in a racist hobgoblin that participated in the take-over of a Paladin city which was a beacon of good before its citizens were turned into slaves.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

You know, you're right, what I would think while pllummiting to my death from a very high place, moments after I have had my heart filled with false hope that I might actually live and being the butt of a cruel and sadistic joke is "Well, at least they didn't torture me to death, and I'm glad my death wasn't ENTIRELY pointless because they got a sickly humurous joke from me dying a horrible horrible death"

[pendell]

Alright, figured I'd be the first to pose the question:

For the sake of a cheap gag, the commander killed a possibly-innocent prisoner. They have freaking clerics, just divine whether or not he is telling the truth or not!


But noooo... They killed him on the OFF CHANCE he might be a spy.


[/rage]

He killed a helpless prisoner out of hand?

By the rules of D&D -- and by my own personal morality, which isn't really something we should talk about, since real-world stuff is verboten -- it was NO WAY a good act. There were plenty of other methods for restraining the prisoner than killing him. The idea that 'the only good goblin is a dead goblin' is reprehensible.

Roy himself -- in the prequel -- showed the *right* way to deal with this situation. Confronted by an orc tribe, he used diplomacy rather than kill 'em all. Durkon followed him because of this . I believe Roy was right, and the elves are in the wrong.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gredival]

You know, you're right, what I would think while pllummiting to my death from a very high place, moments after I have had my heart filled with false hope that I might actually live and being the butt of a cruel and sadistic joke is "Well, at least they didn't torture me to death, and I'm glad my death wasn't ENTIRELY pointless because they got a sickly humurous joke from me dying a horrible horrible death"

No it's probably be more like "oh crap oh crap oh cra- SPLAT"

[Shular]

Why are people using (late) 20th century morality to judge medieval behaviour? Further, why are they assuming that some races are NOT inherantly evil. Has anyone here ever MET a hobgoblin?

Also note the nature of death in this universe. It's not like it's always permanent.

So the commander made a joke of it. So what? Heck, Elan cracks jokes when killing, in fact they even help him kill better. Does that disregard for his enemies' make the killings an evil act? C'mon people, get over it.

[warmachine]

Real, medieval societies were known to be this brutal.

[drengnikrafe]

Giving something hope shortly before it's death... is done all the time. Frequently it is done in a hope that it will create a positive impact.

On the other note (about the team leader being a jerk), if you had a character who, in his backstory, hated goblins with a burning passion, would it be very in-character to spare one because he said he hated goblins?

Consider a third possibility. The hobgoblin made a bluff check, against which the sense motive beat it. The Commander then desided to play the same game, and made a bluff check of his own, against which the goblin could not compete, so he was fooled until the moment of his death. Then it's payback.

The point here is that there are too many things we do not know for certain to make moral observations about actions.

[SPoD]

If I was playing a Good aligned character in that world, I'd calling the Elf commander a murderer and demanding he not approach any hobgoblin prisoners ever again. If divination magic is not available, the risk that he's a spy is unacceptable, so uncuff and release him or stick him back in prison. He can't be blamed for the raid, so he's not doomed. A person should be judged by what he did and intended. That a person is a hobgoblin does not reveal any of that.

The important thing to remember is that NO ONE is necessarily playing a Good character in this scene.* The only person we know for sure has a Good alignment in all of Azure City at this point is Thanh, and they made a point of mentioning how they weren't going to tell him.

So, it's not really a case of anyone failing to act the proper way for their alignment, so much as it is that the audience had a false expectation as to what their alignment might be.

* Of course, no one is "playing" anything in OOTS, and if they were, it would be Roy & Co. Who would almost CERTAINLY act close to the way you describe.

[Kish]

Why are people using (late) 20th century morality to judge medieval behaviour? Further, why are they assuming that some races are NOT inherantly evil. Has anyone here ever MET a hobgoblin?

Your argument is self-contradictory. It's not "medieval." They're hobgoblins.

Also note the nature of death in this universe. It's not like it's always permanent.

I wish people would quit waving around, "It's possible to resurrect!" as though it meant, "Death is nearly meaningless to everyone there, regardless of whether that individual is at all likely to be resurrected!"

So the commander made a joke of it. So what?

If you didn't know the answer to the question, you wouldn't ask the question. One of those paradox things...

C'mon people, get over it.

Are you seriously under the impression people will stop disagreeing with you because you tell them to? 'Cause if you are, uh...wow.

[Eldariel]

And if he didn't make his little anti-Goblin speech I might agree with you. It was a very pragmatic military decision, but it was still wrong to kill a defenseless prisoner and the fact that his reasons were blatant racism doesn't exactly help.

If the defenseless prisoner was a spy, this was the right thing to do; in such a case, it's unlike he actually was as defenseless as he appeared. If he was a spy, his shackles might be loose, he might have a weapon hidden god-knows-where and may be able to fire a signal of the escape or whatever once he realizes the opposition didn't fall for his story.

As such, what the Elvish commander did was merely a story to keep the Hobgoblin occupied thinking his story was bought and thus avoid him revealing the escape or escaping himself or any such. Prudent precaution.

[Solara]

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and getting put into the same prison as the slaves for "beating up a greenskin" seems like a weak excuse. It would be quite odd for the goblins not to try to plant a spy. I suspect Redcloak will probably come back with "it was worth a shot" when he learns of his spy's death.

I don't know, 'hey let's chain a dude up in a cell for an indefinite amount of time on the off chance that there's a prison break and the Resistance is gullible enough to completely believe a hobgoblin' doesn't seem like a very practical plan, I'm thinking he was sincere about why he was in there. Redcloak was pretty racist again hobgoblins for awhile, I don't see why a hob couldn't feel the same way about a 'greenskin'.

So he was jerk, but still...he was already chained up, if they didn't trust him (and it would have been stupid too, I'm with the elves at least that far) how hard would it have been to put a gag on him and just leave him somewhere?

[Barlen]

Re-reading this it almost looks like the hobgoblin saw it coming but carried his bluff to the end.