OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread

[Trixie]

Well that assumes that the dialog was the commanders motivation. I don't really see it that way. The lieutenant's responses were just a little too "prepared" for it to be a spontaneous thing.

Or maybe, just maybe, he is evil monster who does this routinely. His sidekick's lack of surprise completely confirm that

One alternative explanation would be that it was purely for morale reasons. Another explanation would be that it was an attempt to get the goblin out of the way, quickly and quietly.

I fail to see how killing unarmed prisoner, which pretty much will bring the response in kind, besides being hideously evil will help morale of anyone but Belkar-type. And yes, pushing big orange object off the wall, giving him a chance to scream and being absolutely visible for everyone around instead of, you know, a quick stab, was both quick and quiet

I also saw a hint of differing standards of protocol between the elven commander and Thanh, and this was merely an attempt to avoid a confrontation by eliminating the source of the potential issue.

You know who needs to hide their deeds from Paladins? Chaotic Evil bastards

Not entirely; he killed the prisoner because he didn't want Thanh to bring the prisoner into the tunnels, thus exposing the Resistance to a security breach waiting to happen. The fact that he ALSO hates goblins is just icing on the cake.

Yeah, telling the escort to assign someone to watch him would take away resources from escorting the very same column! Wait, what?

If he is a spy, you can kill him later, not behave like second Peiper or Raine without being branded as such

[Harr]

The important thing to remember is that NO ONE is necessarily playing a Good character in this scene.* The only person we know for sure has a Good alignment in all of Azure City at this point is Thanh, and they made a point of mentioning how they weren't going to tell him.

Yeah I think that's the real takeaway here. They specifically said that Thanh didn't need to know about this, which implies they know full well the twisted morality of what just transpired - they just don't happen to have a problem with it.

[Solara]

Or maybe, just maybe, he is evil monster who does this routinely. His sidekick's lack of surprise completely confirm that

Okay, you hate elves, we get it.

[waterpenguin43]

Part of me feels good watching the hobgoblin get thrown off, the other feels bad. But which is which?

[TheBST]

Why are people using (late) 20th century morality to judge medieval behaviour?

Further, why are they assuming that some races are NOT inherantly evil.

So the commander made a joke of it. So what? Heck, Elan cracks jokes when killing, in fact they even help him kill better. Does that disregard for his enemies' make the killings an evil act? .

a) Because we live in a time when those morals are commonplace. So does the author.

b) Because that would be stupid.

c) Elan's never killed someone not only unarmed but with their hands bound.

[dspeyer]

I see we're maintaining the pattern that all drow are secretly evil. Nevertheless, they are integrated into elvish society. Perhaps a foreshadowing of how things could be for goblinkind.

[Alex Warlorn]

On the plus side, at least their PAINFULLY PREDICTABLE AND MISERABLY CLICHE NEW-AGE REVERSE PREJUDICE only resulted in the death of one racist bigot this time.... I'm worried about the goblins who really DON'T mean any harm and happy by these elves.

[Istari]

I'd say it a neutral action, its definitely not good, but considering he's their enemy and that looking him up or letting him go is too risky its justified enough to not be unnecessary and evil

[LuisDantas]

To be fair, there's nothing that leads us to believe Elves are, as a race in general, Good-aligned in the OOTS world. They may simply be True Neutral (in general), in which case acting like this is less surprising.

A True Neutral race alignment would also be in concordance with Hinjo's "allies which are slow to act" statement about them.

I just don't see it. Yes, it is true that from what little we have seen it would make sense for OOtS elves to generally revolve around some form of Neutral alignment. But still, Hinjo and Xykon both seem to expect them to stand for Azure City, which goes at odds with Neutral alignments.

True Neutral societies aren't expected to be slow in acting against Xykon, but to refuse to act at all, until and unless a good reason to presents itself.

I also strongly take issue with the idea that a bastard is "the right tool" for the job. That may be realistic in the sense that it is what happens in the real world, but that is also self-defeating in that it makes the victory hollow.

[Miklus]

This just shows that the elves are every bit as ruthless and murderous as the goblins. The Azurites are not much better, they actually go out of their way to murder women and children based only on speices. Or rather because they are labled "evil" by the flying petting zoo.

I actually like this story. The old good vs evil thing was getting old anyway.

[Gredival]

Your argument is self-contradictory. It's not "medieval." They're hobgoblins.

His point is that we're not dealing with robust moral ambiguities. We're dealing a species that is metaphysically defined as evil in the most explicit way possible.

The elf is acting under the moral rules of a different universe where you can pretty much take it for granted that goblins = fair game. He's not a cop shooting African-Americans on sight because there is a chance they could be gang-bangers. He is a soldier on a battlefield against an undoubtedly evil force confronted with an agent that has 99.99% chance of being evil and deserving of death.

What motivation does the elf have to spare him? What motivation does the elf have to show mercy to an evil race that murdered and enslaved dozens of innocent good Azurites?

[Dark Matter]

If I was playing a Good aligned character in that world, I'd calling the Elf commander a murderer and demanding he not approach any hobgoblin prisoners ever again. If divination magic is not available, the risk that he's a spy is unacceptable, so uncuff and release him or stick him back in prison. He can't be blamed for the raid, so he's not doomed. A person should be judged by what he did and intended. That a person is a hobgoblin does not reveal any of that.

Ignore that the hobgoblin is in jail because he's evil (or at least chaotic) by goblin standards.

The resistance CAN NOT simply put him back in jail. He's seen that there's a team of high level characters helping the resistance. That's extremely important information, and that information getting out is the difference between Xykon leaving the city with the other high level characters and Xykon destroying the resistance for his own amusement.

They can't even take the hobgoblin with them without running serious risks of him getting lose and talking about the group... one "sending" by T would do it. The other goblins WILL look into this.

Good isn't stupid. This was a choice of evils, the elf took the lesser.

[Zanaril]

You know who needs to hide their deeds from Paladins? Chaotic Evil bastards

Actually, that behaviour strikes me more as Lawful - in the bad way where people hide behind self-justifed rules to be a complete, self-righteous bastard. I wouldn't be nearly so annoyed otherwise.

I still think elves are awesome, just as long as they're Chaotic.

[Mystic Muse]

I'd say it a neutral action, its definitely not good, but considering he's their enemy and that looking him up or letting him go is too risky its justified enough to not be unnecessary and evil

It was the way he killed the goblin that makes the act evil.

if he'd said "I'm sorry I can't take any chances" that would have been a neutral action.

giving somebody false hope while you lead them off the cliff to their deaths is evil

[shadowxknight]

Good to see the comic back.
Elves ARE awesome.

[Woodsman]

I see we're maintaining the pattern that all drow are secretly evil. Nevertheless, they are integrated into elvish society. Perhaps a foreshadowing of how things could be for goblinkind.

But the commander isn't a Drow, he's just of a darker skin tone than the others.

[Kish]

I just don't see it. Yes, it is true that from what little we have seen it would make sense for OOtS elves to generally revolve around some form of Neutral alignment. But still, Hinjo and Xykon both seem to expect them to stand for Azure City, which goes at odds with Neutral alignments.

True Neutral societies aren't expected to be slow in acting against Xykon, but to refuse to act at all, until and unless a good reason to presents itself.

Why are you assuming a good reason didn't present itself? Ranging from "he'll attack us in the future" to, "our traditional enemy, Cliffport, just acknowledged them"?

I also strongly take issue with the idea that a bastard is "the right tool" for the job. That may be realistic in the sense that it is what happens in the real world, but that is also self-defeating in that it makes the victory hollow.

Indeed. Especially given that the human resistance already made a point of not being able to tell their leader what he just did.

The meme that being violently racist makes someone a better soldier always makes me scratch my head. The only thing he did better than a pragmatic-but-not-racist elf without "the only good goblin is a dead goblin" as a tagline, who would have killed the hobgoblin without playing games, is "polarize the forum."

[The Pilgrim]

After several strips of V softening up after the soulbind affair, it's good that we are reminded why elves are a loathsome race that only deserve to be socially ostracised.

[Harr]

True Neutral societies aren't expected to be slow in acting against Xykon, but to refuse to act at all, until and unless a good reason to presents itself.

But they didn't act at all - until they knew that Xykon had irrevocably won. They know Xykon could very well be gunning for them next, only now he has that entire city as a resource, so it makes sense for them to act even when in Neutrality. Xykon's victory is a threat.

Also, they could have some kind of official signed alliance with Azure City, in which case Lawfulness (assuming in that case a Lawful Neutral alignment), not Goodness, would compel them to act.

[SensFan]

Further, why are they assuming that some races are NOT inherantly evil?

Because that would be stupid.

Except we all know that Hobgoblins are inherently evil.

To avoid using real-world analogies, I'll make one with Harry Potter.
Just because Volemort may have placed one or more Death Eaters under' house arrest' for screwing up a mission doesn't mean that the Order shouldn't just kill them because they're Death Eaters.

[Mystic Muse]

Good isn't stupid. This was a choice of evils, the elf took the lesser.

no, he took the greater. He could have simply said "I'm sorry but we can't take any chances" and simply stabbed him.

he gave him false hope that he would be allowed to live for the sake of a cruel joke while he pushed him off a building.

[SPoD]

You know who needs to hide their deeds from Paladins? Chaotic Evil bastards

Also, anyone who isn't Lawful Good. The list of people who have hidden actions from a paladin in this comic includes Haley and Elan.

I see we're maintaining the pattern that all drow are secretly evil. Nevertheless, they are integrated into elvish society. Perhaps a foreshadowing of how things could be for goblinkind.

He's not a drow, he's a wood elf (or similar). For drow, look to Zz'dtri from the early comics; he has a dark grey, almost black tone.

[Kish]

His point is

He can't talk for himself now?

We're dealing a species that is metaphysically defined as evil in the most explicit way possible.

What are you talking about? Have you read Start of Darkness or On the Origins of PCs? 'Cause if you have, I'd say you missed the point of something quite thoroughly.

Except we all know that Hobgoblins are inherently evil.

Same question about the prequel books, and do not presume to speak for "we all" when you're actually talking about a group which doesn't include the author of the webcomic.

[Mystic Muse]

Except we all know that Hobgoblins are inherently evil.

To avoid using real-world analogies, I'll make one with Harry Potter.
Just because Volemort may have placed one or more Death Eaters under' house arrest' for screwing up a mission doesn't mean that the Order shouldn't just kill them because they're Death Eaters.

Except the order of the Pheonix doesn't kill anyway. (at least from what I remember.)

[Woodsman]

no, he took the greater. He could have simply said "I'm sorry but we can't take any chances" and simply stabbed him.

he gave him false hope that he would be allowed to live for the sake of a cruel joke while he pushed him off a building.

I believe that wasn't what he was referring to.

[Eldariel]

Also, anyone who isn't Lawful Good. The list of people who have hidden actions from a paladin in this comic includes Haley and Elan.

Roy too (him being Lawful Good). The whole "Belkar in disguise"-saga. Pretty much everyone not Lawful Exalted...

[TheSummoner]

Was he wrong to kill the Hobgoblin? Nope. Taking the Hobgoblin prisoner presents it's own risks. Leaving the Hobgoblin to rot in the cell gives anyone who finds him information about those who released the rest (even if he honestly wanted to join up with the elves, he'd probably be a bit spiteful if they left him after releasing the rest). Killing him was the smart thing to do.

But giving him false hope? That was sadistic. The commander did it because he got joy out of it... out of tricking the Hobgoblin into thinking he would have his freedom and then killing him.

Had the commander slit the Hobgoblin's throat and ended it quickly, perhaps explaining that it was a risk he could not take, then I would be defending his choice as the smart thing to do given the circumstances. However, taunting an unarmed prisoner before giving him a cruel death... that pushes it over the line.

[Gredival]

What are you talking about?

The metaphysics of a D&D universe indicate that the hobgoblin race is evil. As in the opposite of good. As they have a net negative effect on the world and their elimination would thus create a positive effect. As in it is morally permissible to kill them.

Yes in the era of Drizzt everyone wants to think about the exception. We want to believe in the possibility of someone to overcome their evil societies and be good people! But the point is that the commander isn't evil for neglecting to consider that possibility.

Especially when the hobgoblin pretty excludes himself from that special group of exceptions when he talks about roughing up immigrants

[Mystic Muse]

The metaphysics of a D&D universe indicate that the hobgoblin race is evil. As in the opposite of good. As they have a net negative effect on the world and their elimination would thus create a positive effect. As in it is morally permissible to kill them.

Yes in the era of Drizzt everyone wants to think about the exception. We want to believe in the possibility of someone to overcome their evil societies and be good people! But the point is that the commander isn't evil for neglecting to consider that possibility.

Especially when the hobgoblin pretty excludes himself from that special group of exceptions when he talks about roughing up immigrants

In D&D Hobgoblins are only usually evil. That means what, 60%? the only reason hobgoblins are evil in this world is because the gods deem it so and if you read Start of darkness you'll see what that has wrought.

[Istari]

There is also the fact that he did this in a humorous way because it this is a comic with humor it it and just killing him would have been boring to us as readers.