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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    ...

    5) Is this based on a CharOp build? This is supposed to be your creativity. I don't want to see a dozen variants on the 'ubercharger' or Cindy or the Mailman. Besides, CharOp is the antithesis of this category anyways. Anything smacking of CharOp... probably won't do well in this category.

    Elegance isn't just doing this, it's doing this and making it look effortless. Think of it as style points, if you will. Some kludgy build containing half a dozen classes, with 'early entry' or otherwise shady means of qualifying for them, isn't very stylish, no matter how powerful it may be.
    I would like to disagree with you on this. While yes, it is inelegant to mirror a char-op build, making your own build to optimize an odd concept can still be powerful as well as elegent. Optimising isn't the antithesis of elegance, it is simply more difficult to manage both at once.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    I'd be surprised if we saw many builds that mirrored previous ones submitted - certainly with the Beastmaster challenge nobody submitted a Supermount! build, even though that's the only thing that the Beastmaster is really good at.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    Since I guess we're weighing in, I might as well too. Elegance to me is the "wow, that's clever" factor. I'm pretty familiar with trickery and theory op-style decisions, so those don't wow me anymore (magic9mushroom's builds are always the exception ). However, getting the most out of a given feat/prestige class/base class without resorting to questionably intentioned tricks? That's rare, and that's what I'm looking to see.

    EDIT: Concerning optimization, I'm not adverse to seeing it. Hell, if you're given something crappy like Justice of Weal and Woe and are asked to make it good, I'd EXPECT to see some optimization, but again, avoid the dirty tricks. It's more impressive to see you do something great without resorting to questionable tactics.
    Last edited by arguskos; 2010-03-25 at 01:27 PM.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    Quote Originally Posted by Vulaas View Post
    I would like to disagree with you on this. While yes, it is inelegant to mirror a char-op build, making your own build to optimize an odd concept can still be powerful as well as elegent. Optimising isn't the antithesis of elegance, it is simply more difficult to manage both at once.
    Optimization isn't the antithesis of elegance... CharOp board builds, however, generally are. There's a big difference.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    Does that make it clearer?
    Yup. Thanks.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    Just clarifying, is ripping off ourselves counted as unoriginal?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Your Tainted Scholar builds look fun, but I'm lactose intolerant
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    You're just trying to get more people into your sig, aren't you
    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Seeing TO by Magic9Mushroom is like seeing a movie with Joss Wheaton as director... you know that it's worth watching, even if you do want to strangle the bastard by the time you're done with it.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    I would like to play!
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    Why would you say this? His players are all for this kind of campaign - it's not like he said "Hello ladies. Roll up some whores, we're playin' Pimps 'n Prostitutes" or something

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    Quote Originally Posted by magic9mushroom View Post
    Just clarifying, is ripping off ourselves counted as unoriginal?
    The problem with copying yourself is that all entries are judged anonymously. How are we to know that you are copying yourself and not someone else copying one of your more infamous builds?
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    I haven' done a lot of optimization, but I enjoy making a truly elegant, playable build. I'll throw my hat into the ring so to speak.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    The problem with copying yourself is that all entries are judged anonymously. How are we to know that you are copying yourself and not someone else copying one of your more infamous builds?
    Hmm, good point. Not that I'd be using any of the really infamous stuff unless it synergised uncommonly well, anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Your Tainted Scholar builds look fun, but I'm lactose intolerant
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    You're just trying to get more people into your sig, aren't you
    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Seeing TO by Magic9Mushroom is like seeing a movie with Joss Wheaton as director... you know that it's worth watching, even if you do want to strangle the bastard by the time you're done with it.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    I'd like to judge if possible, but more importantly:

    The other thread doesn't have what the secret ingredient is on the front page. It'd be nice to streamline the winners, etc. (say, a first-place, second place, third place description in the op, or at least links to descriptions in the op). I'm interested in who wins, not in trying to do the optimization.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    I too am interested in competing (though a little confused what the point of announcing interest in advance is).

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    Quote Originally Posted by magic9mushroom View Post
    Hmm, good point. Not that I'd be using any of the really infamous stuff unless it synergised uncommonly well, anyway.
    This Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge's secret ingredient is...

    Beholder Mage.
    Awesome Gnome Psion avatar by Elrond.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    As long as we're all giving our two cents I think if I were to define elegance as I interpret it in a character build it would be "how clock-like is the build?"

    To me in an elegant build each feat and class is a cog/gear/what have you. The number of gears in the clock doesn't matter to me, what makes it elegant is when the build is able to use them in such a way that they are all moving simultaneously without any wasteful motions, each contributing to machine as a whole.

    The power level of the machine itself is irrelevant to elegance in this way, all that matters is the efficiency of the machine and how creatively it accomplishes its task while still remaining efficient.
    Last edited by Wings of Peace; 2010-03-26 at 02:52 AM.
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  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    As long as we're all giving our two cents I think if I were to define elegance as I interpret it in a character build it would be "how clock-like is the build?"

    To me in an elegant build each feat and class is a cog/gear/what have you. The number of gears in the clock doesn't matter to me, what makes it elegant is when the build is able to use them in such a way that they are all moving simultaneously without any wasteful motions, each contributing to machine as a whole.

    The power level of the machine itself is irrelevant to elegance in this way, all that matters is the efficiency of the machine and how creatively it accomplishes its task while still remaining efficient.
    So basically, how much synergy all your feats/abilities/etc... have with each other.
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  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    So basically, how much synergy all your feats/abilities/etc... have with each other.
    Stop cliff noting my monologue. And yes.
    Last edited by Wings of Peace; 2010-03-26 at 03:39 AM.
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  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    Stop cliff noting my monologue. And yes.
    Too many gears makes it inherently cludgy, though. While a Rube Goldburg machine is fun to watch, it is inherently, purposefully, inelegant. That's what a lot of the CharOp builds feel like to me. Way too many moving parts.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2010-03-26 at 03:42 AM.
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    Quite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
    Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
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    Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
    Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
    Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us

    My homebrew world in progress: Falcora

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Too many gears makes it inherently cludgy, though. While a Rube Goldburg machine is fun to watch, it is inherently, purposefully, inelegant. That's what a lot of the CharOp builds feel like to me. Way too many moving parts.
    I think... I need to ask for a different example or perhaps more elaboration. I think I see what you're saying but to me the Rube Goldburg machine example is still a poor synergy because it's wasteful with it's potential energy (even if purposely so. Am I following your logic or am I somewhat off track? I feel like I may be missing the point.
    Last edited by Wings of Peace; 2010-03-26 at 03:51 AM.
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  19. - Top - End - #79
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    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    Quote Originally Posted by Munchkin-Masher View Post
    This Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge's secret ingredient is...

    Beholder Mage.
    Ha. No, I meant like something that would grant one of the myriad capabilities you have to track down in a TO build.

    Like, for example, Otherworldly, which would immediately make me think "Fiend of Possession".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Your Tainted Scholar builds look fun, but I'm lactose intolerant
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    You're just trying to get more people into your sig, aren't you
    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Seeing TO by Magic9Mushroom is like seeing a movie with Joss Wheaton as director... you know that it's worth watching, even if you do want to strangle the bastard by the time you're done with it.

  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    Can I request that the secret ingredient be edited into the OP so you don't have to hunt for it when look at the thread later?

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    Quote Originally Posted by dspeyer View Post
    I too am interested in competing (though a little confused what the point of announcing interest in advance is).
    Uh, tradition, mostly. I'm just following the format set down by those who came before. Hehe.
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    The only person in the past two pages who has known what (s)he has been talking about is Heliomance.
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    I just don't want to have long romantic conversations or any sort of drama with my computer, okay? It knows what kind of porn I watch. I don't want to mess that up by allowing it to judge any of my choices in romance.

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  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    Okay, as interest has accrued so fast, I'm starting the contest now. The secret ingredient: a class that I've never seen used before. Ladies and gentlemen, Complete Scoundrel's Psibond Agent!

    Allez optimiser!
    Last edited by Heliomance; 2010-03-26 at 10:39 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalirren View Post
    The only person in the past two pages who has known what (s)he has been talking about is Heliomance.
    Quote Originally Posted by golentan View Post
    I just don't want to have long romantic conversations or any sort of drama with my computer, okay? It knows what kind of porn I watch. I don't want to mess that up by allowing it to judge any of my choices in romance.

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  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    Okay, as interest has accrued so fast, I'm starting the contest now. The secret ingredient: a class that I've never seen used before. Ladies and gentlemen, Complete Scoundrel's Psibond Agent!

    Allez optimiser!
    damn.

    I never use psionics, the dm doesn't like them.

    oh well, gotta learn sometime!
    Last edited by the humanity; 2010-03-26 at 12:37 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    The Psibond Agent, hmm? Damn. That's an odd one. I'll be watching this with great interest. Let's see what ya'll can produce!

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    Okay, as interest has accrued so fast, I'm starting the contest now. The secret ingredient: a class that I've never seen used before. Ladies and gentlemen, Complete Scoundrel's Psibond Agent!

    Allez optimiser!
    Oh my... this does seem.... interesting.

    On first blush, it seems like the psionic version of the Dragon Disciple... a psionic class that does not promote Manifestation. But as you look deeper, I'm not sure it was intended to be a psionic class at all...

    I can see several applications for this, both subtle and blunt.

    Entry requirements are fairly simple, an INT of 16+ is enough to handle the most obnoxious one. It doesn't even necessarily take much in the way of multiclassing, although I can see how a multiclass can take advantage of it.

    I look forward to reading the entries
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  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    Quote Originally Posted by the humanity View Post
    damn.

    I never use psionics, the dm doesn't like them.

    oh well, gotta learn sometime!
    I learned psionics for an optimization challenge myself: it's a good motivator :)

    Regarding the prestige class: very interesting choice. I've never seen it used either, but there's a few ways you could take this build. Hmm.

    Edit: Oh, is online material allowed? From a strict reading of the rules it seems to be disallowed.
    Last edited by Akal Saris; 2010-03-26 at 02:27 PM.
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    Thanks to Strategos and Jumilk for the awesome Iron Chef trophies!

  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    Good god this is a horrible prestige class. I have no idea what to do with this.

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    Quote Originally Posted by FishAreWet View Post
    Good god this is a horrible prestige class. I have no idea what to do with this.
    I would disagree that this is a horrible prestige class. Anything that you can do which doesn't allow a save is pretty nice...
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    Quite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
    Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
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    Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
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    Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us

    My homebrew world in progress: Falcora

  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    I would disagree that this is a horrible prestige class. Anything that you can do which doesn't allow a save is pretty nice...
    Considering that psibond allows a save... yeah. I mean, Nudge doesn't specifically, but since establishing that link does give one, it makes it kinda a moot point. Further, using the psibond requires concentration (standard actions), making it a bit of a pain.

    That said, I'm interested to see what people do with it. I've a few ideas on how to use it myself. It'll be interesting to see what folk figure out.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Considering that psibond allows a save... yeah. I mean, Nudge doesn't specifically, but since establishing that link does give one, it makes it kinda a moot point. Further, using the psibond requires concentration (standard actions), making it a bit of a pain.

    That said, I'm interested to see what people do with it. I've a few ideas on how to use it myself. It'll be interesting to see what folk figure out.
    False Sensory Input is also not allowed a save, through the Psibond. And, once the psibond has been established, you can use multiple effects, all without saves.

    The thing is, this should be seen as a challenge, not an impossibility. So, your challenge is to use this class effectively. If you don't want to? Just don't submit anything. Sit back and see what others come up with.

    This is as much a spectator sport as anything else. Half the fun will be in seeing what kind of builds people come up with.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
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    Quite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
    Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
    Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
    Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
    Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
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    My homebrew world in progress: Falcora

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