Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge II

[Private-Prinny]

Psionics... This should be interesting. Looking at the class, I see a lot of uses for classes that don't even have manifestation. BTW, what are we using for stats? 32-Point Buy?

Entry requirements are fairly simple, an INT of 16+ is enough to handle the most obnoxious one. It doesn't even necessarily take much in the way of multiclassing, although I can see how a multiclass can take advantage of it.

It doesn't even take that much. Common counts as a language, does it not? And don't forget about racial languages.

[arguskos]

The thing is, this should be seen as a challenge, not an impossibility. So, your challenge is to use this class effectively. If you don't want to? Just don't submit anything. Sit back and see what others come up with.

This is as much a spectator sport as anything else. Half the fun will be in seeing what kind of builds people come up with.

Oh yes, I agree completely. However, there's a REASON no one uses Psibond Agent.

[FishAreWet]

Oh yes, I agree completely. However, there's a REASON no one uses Psibond Agent.

That's what I was saying too.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That's what I was saying too.

I could see it being used to devastating effectiveness in a politicial maneuvering/whodunnit type game, rather than a more traditional hack n slash/dungeon run.

[the humanity]

That's what I was saying too.

I find it far more interesting than most psionic classes. I just wish it was an arcane thing, I think it would have been a far more flavorful thing than mindbender tends to be.

[arguskos]

I find it far more interesting than most psionic classes. I just wish it was an arcane thing, I think it would have been a far more flavorful thing than mindbender tends to be.

Considering that all you need to have is 1 power point (play a Xeph or Dromite, or take Wild Talent) and know the Psionic Focus rules (totally easy to figure out), it's pretty easy to figure. As far as the psionic rules go, it's very very light.

[the humanity]

Considering that all you need to have is 1 power point (play a Xeph or Dromite, or take Wild Talent) and know the Psionic Focus rules (totally easy to figure out), it's pretty easy to figure. As far as the psionic rules go, it's very very light.

oh here I was planning on taking a level of Psion... thanks for your help!

[Grynning]

We should probably keep judge and spectator discussion of the class to a minimum from here on out to prevent any (further) influence on potential competing builds.

[arguskos]

oh here I was planning on taking a level of Psion... thanks for your help!

Well, that's good too, of course.

[the humanity]

Well, that's good too, of course.

now I'm starting to really get it...

this is rather odd.

[gallagher]

False Sensory Input is also not allowed a save, through the Psibond. And, once the psibond has been established, you can use multiple effects, all without saves.

The thing is, this should be seen as a challenge, not an impossibility. So, your challenge is to use this class effectively. If you don't want to? Just don't submit anything. Sit back and see what others come up with.

This is as much a spectator sport as anything else. Half the fun will be in seeing what kind of builds people come up with.

but sir shneekey, you seem to be lending the idea that judging is just as much fun as competing

[FishAreWet]

Shneeky, check out the Adaptation section. They spell out an arcane adaptation. And basically nothing changes but 1pp to 1st level Arcane spells.

Assuming that's kosher for the challenge.

[Tehnar]

Shneeky, check out the Adaptation section. They spell out an arcane adaptation. And basically nothing changes but 1pp to 1st level Arcane spells.

Assuming that's kosher for the challenge.

It would be good to know how judges feel about that ahead of time.

[arguskos]

It would be good to know how judges feel about that ahead of time.

Personally? I'd prefer to avoid adaptations. There's a massive amount of ways to get power points, it's not really a limiting factor in my eyes. Course, Heliomance has the final say, being his competition and all.

[FishAreWet]

Personally? I'd prefer to avoid adaptations. There's a massive amount of ways to get power points, it's not really a limiting factor in my eyes. Course, Heliomance has the final say, being his competition and all.

I normally avoid them too with the exception of the times where they are explicit. Like Unarmed Swordsage is fine but Arcane Swordsage isn't.

[arguskos]

I normally avoid them too with the exception of the times where they are explicit. Like Unarmed Swordsage is fine but Arcane Swordsage isn't.

In a competition setting, I feel that using adaptations at all is kinda against the point. In an actual game, well, all bets are off. I permit enough stuff that I get mixed up on what is and isn't allowed!

[FishAreWet]

Against the point? I feel that it changes very little in the scope of the competition. With a 10 level prestige class that doesn't advance spellcasting nor psionics, we probably won't see builds built around manifesting or spellcasting anyways. Therefore, how you qualify for it... doesn't matter to much.

We'll just have to wait and see what the big man says.

[arguskos]

Against the point? I feel that it changes very little in the scope of the competition. With a 10 level prestige class that doesn't advance spellcasting nor psionics, we probably won't see builds built around manifesting or spellcasting anyways. Therefore, how you qualify for it... doesn't matter to much.

We'll just have to wait and see what the big man says.

Eh, if given a PrC, I am not wont to shift the rules. That's just me though. Helio has the final say, and I'll happily judge anything presented to me assuming it's legally done.

[Akal Saris]

Allowing arcane spellcasting to qualify or not would make a difference to me since my entry is through an arcane class to begin with and I've had to look for power points as an additional challenge while building the character.

Personally, I'd prefer that adaptations be discouraged, especially since I like that the challenge is encouraging contestants to learn more about psionics, which I think is a good thing overall.

[magic9mushroom]

Rules queries:

Leadership is banned, what about Draconic Cohort and similar feats that grant a cohort without followers?

I'm also curious as to whether the adaptation is allowed, whether online WotC material is allowed, and to what pointbuy we have to work with (seconding earlier queries).

Also, since there's this whole thing about controlling others in the PrC, what NPCs are we allowed to assume exist?

Also, you said Unearthed Arcana material is allowed, but does that mean Gestalt's allowed? What about Item Familiars?

And just to clarify, you want full character sheets, am I right?

[Heliomance]

Official Wizards web material: yes, but provide a link.

Leadership includes all similar effects, including the Thrallherd class.

I think I'll say no to the adaptation - though even if I said yes I can't imagine many people would take it, as it's a lot easier to get 1pp than to get first level spells with a low investment.

32 point buy, as standard for CO work.

Item familiars are broken and disgusting and I hate them. No.

Gestalt is a different system and optimising for it is a slightly different skill. No.

Paragon classes and variant races are allowed, prestige and variant classes are also allowed but may, at the judges' discretion, be grounds for an elegance drop.

At least one full character sheet is required, preferably for the level 20 version, and a reasonably detailed rundown of the character's abilities is required for the other levels listed.

As for NPCs, write them into the fluff.

[magic9mushroom]

Official Wizards web material: yes, but provide a link.

Leadership includes all similar effects, including the Thrallherd class.

I think I'll say no to the adaptation - though even if I said yes I can't imagine many people would take it, as it's a lot easier to get 1pp than to get first level spells with a low investment.

32 point buy, as standard for CO work.

Item familiars are broken and disgusting and I hate them. No.

Gestalt is a different system and optimising for it is a slightly different skill. No.

Paragon classes and variant races are allowed, prestige and variant classes are also allowed but may, at the judges' discretion, be grounds for an elegance drop.

At least one full character sheet is required, preferably for the level 20 version, and a reasonably detailed rundown of the character's abilities is required for the other levels listed.

As for NPCs, write them into the fluff.

What about Reducing Level Adjustments? Allowed?

Also, if we're spending XP on crafting/spells/LA Buyoff/whatever else, how does that factor in?

[Grynning]

What about Reducing Level Adjustments? Allowed?

Also, if we're spending XP on crafting/spells/LA Buyoff/whatever else, how does that factor in?

Dunno how Heliomance feels, but "pre-spending" xp as part of a build (for LA buyoff or crafting) would lose some elegance points with me. Such mechanics are intended as part of organic character growth (i.e. occurring while the character is being played and earning xp) and, in my opinion, should not be assumed as part of a build. If you think such things would make your build better, you could mention it, but it should be functional without it.

[Private-Prinny]

How much, if any, fluff is necessary? Do I have to write a character bio? Finally, should I assume I have WBL to use for equipment?

[Akal Saris]

The way I see LA buyoff is like this: if it gets you 3 LA worth of templates and you still have 20 class levels shown in a build, do you really feel like your build should be competing with 20 level builds that don't have3 LA of templates?

How about doing a build without LA buyoff, and then at the end add a note that says "If you've got LA buyoff in your game, here's the templates you should add on"?

Last challenge I think BooNL used LA buyoff to get the Entropic template. But that seemed to be less an optimization thing and more of a flavor thing (entropic + entropomancer = entropy galore), so it worked out well for the build.

[magic9mushroom]

The way I see LA buyoff is like this: if it gets you 3 LA worth of templates and you still have 20 class levels shown in a build, do you really feel like your build should be competing with 20 level builds that don't have3 LA of templates?

How about doing a build without LA buyoff, and then at the end add a note that says "If you've got LA buyoff in your game, here's the templates you should add on"?

Last challenge I think BooNL used LA buyoff to get the Entropic template. But that seemed to be less an optimization thing and more of a flavor thing (entropic + entropomancer = entropy galore), so it worked out well for the build.

I was posing the question in regards to a race, not a template. I'd agree that White Dragonspawn or Half-Minotaur + LA Buyoff = , but this is an LAed race.

@Grynning: But we are kind-of assuming that you'd be playing this through. LA buyoff particularly is something that's kind-of meant to be automatically done precisely so that you get caught up by the river of XP.

[Grynning]

@Grynning: But we are kind-of assuming that you'd be playing this through. LA buyoff particularly is something that's kind-of meant to be automatically done precisely so that you get caught up by the river of XP.

In a game I was running, I would be a-ok with LA buyoff for +1/+2 LA races/templates in most cases. But the reason it would lose points is that bought-off LA is only fair in games where EVERY party member uses it or if the DM specifically adjudicates it. For the purposes of this tournament, allowing it bar-none means more uniformity in builds, because there's little reason NOT to do it for an ECL 20 build.

In short, I stand by my original statement - if you think you need to use it, go ahead, but be warned it may effect your score.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

In a game I was running, I would be a-ok with LA buyoff for +1/+2 LA races/templates in most cases. But the reason it would lose points is that bought-off LA is only fair in games where EVERY party member uses it or if the DM specifically adjudicates it. For the purposes of this tournament, allowing it bar-none means more uniformity in builds, because there's little reason NOT to do it for an ECL 20 build.

In short, I stand by my original statement - if you think you need to use it, go ahead, but be warned it may effect your score.

This also echos my viewpoint on the topic of LA buyoff, and would further like to point out that you'll never attain Level 20, even if you DO buy off your levels, because you expended XP to do so. So the most you would ever be would be Level 19. Which means it would be pointless for a +1 LA race to buyoff.

[Godskook]

This also echos my viewpoint on the topic of LA buyoff, and would further like to point out that you'll never attain Level 20, even if you DO buy off your levels, because you expended XP to do so. So the most you would ever be would be Level 19. Which means it would be pointless for a +1 LA race to buyoff.

Huh? You lost me somewhere in there.

[Private-Prinny]

Huh? You lost me somewhere in there.

I'm guessing that we're given the minimum amount of XP to get to level 20. If you spend some on a LA buyoff, you won't have enough left to level up.