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    Default Subversion feats (3.5, please help balance)

    Subvert Damage [General]
    You know how to turn the strength of your enemy against you rather than merely shrugging off their blows.
    Prerequisites: Damage reduction
    Benefits: Choose a form of damage reduction you possess. Whenever you would take less damage due to that damage reduction, you may add the damage so reduced as a subversion bonus to damage of an attack you make on your next turn. The bonus damage only applies once.
    Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time, it affects a different kind of damage reduction. The separate instances of bonus damage do not stack but you may apply them to different attacks.

    Subvert Energy [General]
    You are the indisputable master of your element; any that dare challenge you with it feel the impact of their mistake.
    Prerequisites: Energy Resistance or Energy Immunity
    Benefits: Choose a form of energy resistance or immunity that you possess. Whenever that form of energy resistance or immunity reduces the amount of elemental damage you take, you may add the damage so reduced as a subversion bonus to damage of an attack you make on your next turn. The bonus damage only applies once.
    Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time, it affects resistance or immunity to a different element. The separate instances of bonus damage do not stack but you may apply them to different attacks.


    Subvert Magic [General]
    You don't just resist spells but subvert the spell energy to empower your attacks.
    Prerequisites: Spell Resistance, Spell Immunity, Evasion or Mettle
    Benefits: Whenever you completely avoid the effects of a non-harmless spell (through a saving throw or spell resistance/immunity), you may add the caster level of that spell as a subversion bonus to damage of an attack you make on your next turn. The bonus damage only applies once.
    Last edited by Flickerdart; 2010-03-27 at 10:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guancyto View Post
    Perhaps this will sate Flickerdart's endless hunger for assassinations.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Subversion feats (3.5)

    Subvert Magic could be fantastic, if you have a friendly cleric buddy willing to toss an Inflict Minor Wounds spell your way now and then. You make the (easy) save, you get a bonus equal to his level. Not bad for a cantrip. (Or if he doesn't want to "waste" an action, just make your save when he casts Remove Fear on the party.) Maybe make the bonus equal spell level or twice spell level instead?

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    Default Re: Subversion feats (3.5)

    I've thought about that; in fact, it was one of the obvious uses of the feat. However, it still costs an action for friendly spellcasters to give you a pitiful boost to damage compared to pretty much anything they could do with their standard action. Twice spell level is an idea...for consistency's sake, would you recommend to double the damage of the others as well?
    Likewise, Subvert Energy works wonders when you're immune to fire and standing waist-deep in a lake of lava.
    Last edited by Flickerdart; 2010-03-27 at 03:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guancyto View Post
    Perhaps this will sate Flickerdart's endless hunger for assassinations.

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    Default Re: Subversion feats (3.5, please help balance)

    Look fine to me.
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    "We always run the games we want to play in."

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    Default Re: Subversion feats (3.5, please help balance)

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Subvert Damage [General]
    You know how to turn the strength of your enemy against you rather than merely shrugging off their blows.
    Prerequisites: Damage reduction
    Benefits: Choose a form of damage reduction you possess. Whenever you would take less damage due to that damage reduction, you may add the damage so reduced as a subversion bonus to damage of an attack you make on your next turn.
    Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time, it affects a different kind of damage reduction.
    Most PC's wouldn't take this since by the time damage reduction becomes available, +1 damage is basically nothing. Even with fairly high damage reduction, the damage is fairly negligible. I recommend raising the damage or allowing a counter-attack of sorts.

    Don't introduce new bonus types either. It's better to just say "a bonus" and call it untyped than to introduce yet another bonus/penalty type.

    Subvert Energy [General]
    You are the indisputable master of your element; any that dare challenge you with it feel the impact of their mistake.
    Prerequisites: Energy Resistance or Energy Immunity
    Benefits: Choose a form of energy resistance or immunity that you possess. Whenever that form of energy resistance or immunity reduces the amount of elemental damage you take, you may add the damage so reduced as a subversion bonus to damage of an attack you make on your next turn.
    Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time, it affects resistance or immunity to a different element.
    This is somewhat better than the above. Energy resistance is much easier to get than damage reduction and the amount is usually way higher. While it might not come up as much as damage reduction, energy damage usually does more anyway, giving a larger bonus.

    Subvert Magic [General]
    You don't just resist spells but subvert the spell energy to empower your attacks.
    Prerequisites: Spell Resistance, Spell Immunity, Evasion or Mettle
    Benefits: Whenever you completely avoid the effects of a spell (through a saving throw or spell resistance/immunity), you may add the caster level of that spell as a subversion bonus to damage of an attack you make on your next turn.
    This is pretty decent as well. Since the feat requires you to completely avoid the effects of spells, it doesn't step on the toes of Subvert Energy, but at the same time, adding caster level isn't that much damage--especially since most spells will be hitting you from afar, leaving you with a smaller chance of hitting someone in the same round you avoided the spell. Perhaps, as suggested, raising the damage by twice the caster level of the spell would give a more tangible effect.

    Overall, they might need a bit of a power increase to make them "favorite" feats, but they're viable choices right now.

    Of course, in a monster's hands/paws/claws/talons/teeth/mind/soul/being, the damage reduction feat is quite a bit better than in a PC's hands/paws/claws/talons/teeth/mind/soul/being.
    Last edited by Temotei; 2010-03-27 at 06:57 PM.
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    Default Re: Subversion feats (3.5, please help balance)

    The reason I have it as a separate bonus type is that I don't want them to stack, and don't want to spend the words saying that they don't. The idea of a guy getting 30 followers to hit him with knives before he whacks the enemy for a jillion damage is kind of silly.

    Should I make one that requires a miss chance and counter-attacks or adds damage whenever the miss chance negates an attack?
    Last edited by Flickerdart; 2010-03-27 at 09:15 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guancyto View Post
    Perhaps this will sate Flickerdart's endless hunger for assassinations.

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    Default Re: Subversion feats (3.5, please help balance)

    The point about Remove Fear is a good one; make your save against a low-level buff that you don't need, then get a sizable bonus on your next scorching ray (or whatever attack spell you care to use).

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    Default Re: Subversion feats (3.5, please help balance)

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicEvokerElf View Post
    The point about Remove Fear is a good one; make your save against a low-level buff that you don't need, then get a sizable bonus on your next scorching ray (or whatever attack spell you care to use).
    Of course, you'd have to have mettle, evasion, spell resistance, or spell immunity. Not too difficult, but still.

    Perhaps if you put in something about only getting the benefits if you avoid a spell through one of those options...it might help a little.

    Anyway, the bonus isn't that big. On multi-hit spells, it does add up though. Magic missile becomes 5d4+105 at 20th level.

    Maybe you should say you can only get the bonus once per round, then raise it a little.
    Last edited by Temotei; 2010-03-27 at 09:49 PM.
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    Default Re: Subversion feats (3.5, please help balance)

    The intent was for the bonus to only apply for one attack, yes. I will specify this. Harmless spells are also excluded from triggering the feat.
    Last edited by Flickerdart; 2010-03-27 at 10:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guancyto View Post
    Perhaps this will sate Flickerdart's endless hunger for assassinations.

  10. - Top - End - #10
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    Default Re: Subversion feats (3.5, please help balance)

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    The intent was for the bonus to only apply for one attack, yes. I will specify this. Harmless spells are also excluded from triggering the feat.
    Retribution (Ex): Every time the bloodseeker is attacked, they are allowed to return one of those attacks on their next turn as long as it causes hit point or ability damage. All such effects are returned as if the bloodseeker had initiated them. For example, if Aeron was hit by a tarrasque's bite attack, Aeron would bite back as if he had a natural bite attack with his own attack bonus, dealing damage appropriate for his size. Bloodseekers may not deal more than five times their class levels damage with retribution in a single round. Spells that are affected by retribution are considered supernatural effects. Attacks returned through retribution are free actions.
    Stolen from one of my classes. The wording might help you with this.
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